Liberalism is not leftism.

Taleya , 2 months ago

This is so weird to anyone outside the US because your 'left' party is ....definitely not. In some countries they're further right than right wing parties.

Taleya , 2 months ago

If you're an Aussie there's a whooole extra layer of joke here

halfempty , 10 months ago

When I think of "neo-liberals", I think of corporate Democrats. They serve their own set of wealthy oligarchs, and do minimal lip service to the needs of normal people. They are in the center. The right has gone completely off the spectrum into an authoritarian fascist nightmare. There are many billionaire oligarchs who fund them and create their media propaganda. I'm progressive. I suppose some think that is the "left", but it's really just wanting government policy which prioritizes the needs of working people.

MemeCollector OP , 10 months ago

but it's really just wanting government policy which prioritizes the needs of working people.

A literal impossibility as long as capitalism exists

snarf , 10 months ago

The irony is that true liberalism is made up of many of the same ideals that those on the right claim to fight for.

MemeCollector OP , 10 months ago

Feature, not bug.

Silverseren , 10 months ago

So, we're all agreed then that tankies aren't leftist, right? Because the claimed "communist" countries, such as Russia and China, are extremely capitalist in the worst possible ways.

Veraxus , 10 months ago

Agreed. Leftists must not abide the consolidation or entrenchment of power & power (the two are the same).

Tankies justify this, and are therefore garden variety right wing authoritarians.

Grant_M , 10 months ago

The Russian, Chinese, Iranian etc. governments, billionaires, fascists and the fossil fuel mafia use disinformation to drive wedges between factions of all people who want them to pay up. They use chaos operatives to divide us and cause strife among us. We are under attack by a global RW fascist insurgency. Let's stand together and defeat them/it.

buttermilk , 10 months ago

I'm struggling slightly to understand your point. Are you saying this in contrast to the point made in the post, as in stand together as leftist and liberals in the fight against fascism?

Grant_M , 10 months ago

That's what I'm asking. Yes.

buttermilk , 10 months ago

I think the objection that myself and other leftists would offer, is that the fight is against fascism is fundamentally a fight against, white supremacist, capitalist, patriarchy, and that capitalism is in many ways a progenitor and protector of the other two. The wealth generated by capital, captures regulatory bodies, manipulates voters, generates disinformation, all in service of perpetuating itself. A notable example is in your own comment, the power of the capital used by the fossil fuel industries to influence elections, buy political power, misinform voters, because the base scientific reality is that their industry cannot function in a world that is inhabited by people.

So for fossil fuels and tangentially, billionaires, the global issues cannot be tackled without recognizing that the core of capitalism is itself a vital part of the building of fascism.

To re-frame this in hopes of giving insight, imagine we were talking about racial justice in America, and one party was arguing that with various other ways to fight inequality, the police as an institution, have fundamentally rotten, and end goal needs to be abolition. The other party argues that we need to come together and stop the right wing fascists like proud boys, et al, that support white supremacy. So when you say we need to come together and tackle the issues without dismantling the tools that are use to create them, it sounds hallow.

Grant_M , 10 months ago

We need to dismantle the tools that create fascism.

buttermilk , 10 months ago

Yes, including capitalism, it's primary driver.

Grant_M , 10 months ago

Absolutely. Billionaires are a scourge. (And millionaires) Greed is shit.

buttermilk , 10 months ago

Indeed! So if liberalism as an ideology, wants to keep billionaires, don't you think it's a little counter to that logic to say liberals and leftists need to come together and not dismantle the primary driver of fascism?

Grant_M , 10 months ago

I don't see liberalism as wanting to keep billionaires. Perhaps that was the case 20 years ago, but not anymore. Making them pay up is a tricky thing to do, but that imo is where we need to start.

ahriboy , 10 months ago

GAFAM is already shattered after new EU laws are in effect

Grant_M , 10 months ago

Yes. There have been some recent bold moves in the right direction

buttermilk , 10 months ago

I guess I just don't see much value in opposing billionaires when liberals want to leave in place the fundamental tool they use to perpetuate their control.

Grant_M , 10 months ago

Which fundamental tool are you referring to?

buttermilk , 10 months ago

Private wealth that enriches an ownership class to a much greater degree than obtainable through working.

Grant_M , 10 months ago

I already answered that a few posts ago. I'm here in good faith looking to find real solutions. We have a lot of power to change things with our actions as individuals as well. Boycotts work. Simple things can go a long way if people organize and spread the word. For example, we can kill the google chrome browser if folks are serious. This would likely also kill alphabet as an entity.

buttermilk , 10 months ago

I am here in good faith too, I just don't think I share your belief that capitalism can be brought to heel when it has almost unfettered power and every incentive in it is towards the sort of system we have now. And that transferring that weight to an entire populous of ethical consumers just doesn't bare fruit.