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OurToothbrush ,

It is better to conceptualize political allegiance by which ideology they support: socialism, social capitalism, liberal capitalism, or fascist capitalism.

deaf_fish ,

Left wing and right wing are like political vibes. They only make sense when you have more understanding of what the issues are. What they mean can change over time.

I think it's easier to understand what the individual issues are and why people want them or don't want them. Then you need to figure out what your ideology is and pick what things you want to support to further your political goals.

vsis ,
@vsis@feddit.cl avatar

Political "debates" are useless, but I always like to watch different conceptions from different countries.

When I see USA politics right-wingers have some speeches and actions that left-wingers have in my home country and vise-versa.

Like, leftwingers in my country usually attack a former rightwing president because he supposedly fomented immigration, specially illegal immigration. (Although, here rigwingers also have more hate against the inmigrant, just like US) 1 (sorry for the language, didn't find an english version of it)

Or a former leftwing president that mobilized our army to Haiti to protect their democracy 2

Same with labels: In US "liberal" is a left wing label, in my country is a righ wing one.

Same apply in other countries, like I see Spanish news when "republicans" are the radical ones, usually left-wing, because they oppose monarchy, and the "republican" flag is a left-wing symbol for spaniards.

That's why political labels are pretty useless too. Republican means literal nazi or revolutionary against monarchy depending where you are lol.

stoerte ,

Might be relevant here: https://www.podcast.de/episode/619883332/089-the-myth-of-left-and-right-a-conversation-with-prof-hyrum-lewis

English episode of german podcast

mvirts ,

Don't ask, don't tell?

clearleaf ,

Left wing = people I like

Right wing = people I associate with my high school bullies

Mango ,

Left and right wingers are the people who let all the bad shit happen because they want their football team to win and only care about that.

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

Nah, that's moderates and centrists that refuse to actually take a stance because they are privledged enough to benefit from the status quo.

Mango ,

I have a stance. It happens to conflict with both of you clowns. You're all acting like I have to take the package deal when I'm only interested in Internet. Fuck that nonsense. I want the right to bear arms and have an abortion. Let the gays do whatever they like, but why are they mimicking a religion which says they're bad? I want higher tax brackets for the ultra wealthy and domestic spending for 3rd places, but I also think it's a good idea to have our crazy army money because China specifically wants world domination.

Absolutely NONE of this is "central" or "middle ground" because there is not a fucking polarity to the subjects!

You're all idiots banging your heads together over stupid shit the ultra rich make up to keep you fucking busy! YOU blind idiots are why we can't have nice things!

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

This comment screams "I am extremely confident in my own intelligence and have never once listened to a word anyone else has ever said. Bow down to me!"

Mango ,

This screams "ad hominem" you're just gonna insult my character because you have no argument.

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

Let's go through your comment.

"I have a stance. It happens to conflict with both of you clowns."

-okay, let's see it.

"You're all acting like I have to take the package deal when I'm only interested in Internet. Fuck that nonsense."

-nobody is saying you have to pick a niche view, but views tend to have intersectionality. Ie, antiracists also tend to be anti-transphobia and anti-fascist, because they all come from a similar moral outlook.

"I want the right to bear arms and have an abortion."

-So do most leftists.

"Let the gays do whatever they like, but why are they mimicking a religion which says they're bad?"

-gay people are not mimicking a religion in any way, that's absurd. Pride is about visibility and protection, if that's what you're calling a "religion."

"I want higher tax brackets for the ultra wealthy and domestic spending for 3rd places, but I also think it's a good idea to have our crazy army money because China specifically wants world domination."

-so do most leftists. Even if your take on the military is at odds with many leftists, the rest of your views are fairly leftist.

"Absolutely NONE of this is "central" or "middle ground" because there is not a fucking polarity to the subjects!"

-Not necessarily middle ground, just generally ill-informed, given your belief that gay people are mimicking religion.

"You're all idiots banging your heads together over stupid shit the ultra rich make up to keep you fucking busy! YOU blind idiots are why we can't have nice things!"

-That's a firmly leftist position, saying that the rich are dividing the Proletariat against itself to stay in power. That's not even close to a right wing position.

There you go, firmly answered. You're a leftist, but one who probably hasn't actually read theory or taken the time to analyze their own views. I think reading what other leftists have written about leftism might be fantastic for helping you come to terms with your own views and help you understand them better, but that's your choice to make.

Mango ,

What do you think marriage is?

I'm not about to vote in someone who wants to disarm me just because they're on my side for a couple of topics. The fact of the matter is that I don't believe in representation. Direct democracy is the only way to actually get to conclusions.

Keep your labels to yourself.

Cowbee , (edited )
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

Leftists aren't anti-gun, buddy. Direct democracy is good, sure, but that doesn't change the fact that you're a leftist that refuses that label.

Marriage isn't religious.

tkk13909 ,
@tkk13909@sopuli.xyz avatar

Some people enjoy walking on the wings of passenger planes. For some reason Americans are really hostile about which wing is better to stand on while in flight.

THEDAEMON OP ,

Ah good for them . I personelly prefer sitting in the centre to balance everything .

HopFlop ,

You like to sit in the middle of the alley? I prefer a seat personally...

AFaithfulNihilist ,
@AFaithfulNihilist@lemmy.world avatar

It's actually a pretty good metaphor. People sitting on the left side and the right side of the plane are actually taking a seat whereas people sitting in the aisle are just in the fucking way.

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

Left wingers want collective ownership of the Means of Production, right wingers want individual ownership of the Means of Production.

What follows from that are generally a bunch of interconnected, intersectional views. Leftists tend to oppose hierarchy, rightists tend to support hierarchy.

stembolts , (edited )

.

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

To expand, left wingers analyze current events as a historical process and as an actionable future plan, considering current ownership itself unjust regardless of historical context, though certainly not made any better when combined with it. I don't really see many making a mockery of their own position.

Right wingers do falsely claim that anyone can arrive at the top, they typically do so through some failed idea of meritocracy.

stembolts ,

Good additions. I actually struggled to find a good way to criticize the left because I am extremely left-leaning myself. I caught myseld writing a "cons bad" post and decided to attack the weaknesses I see in left-wing politics as a bit of a self-challenge, tho admittedly with only about two minutes of consideration. Judging by the points on the post my perspective is not very popular.

Tbh I should give this more thought, finding flaws in your own positions is a harder exercise than I realized. I'll have to explore and flesh out these ideas a bit more.

chemicalwonka ,
@chemicalwonka@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

In Empire (aka USA) as there is no true opposition, they're the same picture, the same lobbyists and so on

YeetPics ,
@YeetPics@mander.xyz avatar

You can just make up a name for whoever you don't like and use it to dehumanize them. "Lib" is a popular stand-in when you don't have even a tenuous grasp of global politics.

devfuuu ,

If in America then it's all right wing.

FIST_FILLET ,

my biggest pet peeve in the world is when people equate liberalism (a right-wing ideology) with the left, solely because the american baseline is so far right compared to europe. the closest shot the US have had of pivoting to proper left-wing is bernie sanders (at least as far as i'm aware, and i'm too scared of further rotting my brain by consuming more american politics)

Froyn ,

There's a hockey joke in there too.

THEDAEMON OP ,

There is ?

Froyn ,

Something about the Forwards. The Left Wingers and Right Wingers if you will.

THEDAEMON OP ,

Ah i got it.

cristo ,

Possibly a rugby joke too

AnUnusualRelic ,
@AnUnusualRelic@lemmy.world avatar

It depends if you're watching them from the front or the back. So it can be quite confusing.

AnnaFrankfurter ,

Those who wank off with left hand are left wingers and those that wank off with right hand are right winger. And none of them are gonna care about your privacy or freedom.

tubaruco ,

that helps, i guess im in the center then, since i care about the privacy and freedom

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