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Thorny_Insight

@Thorny_Insight@lemm.ee

I prioritize ethics over optics even if it means facing criticism.

Sharing my honest beliefs, welcoming constructive debates, and embracing the potential for evolving viewpoints. Independent thinker navigating through conversations without allegiance to any particular side.

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Thorny_Insight ,

Social media, not just Twitter. The key issue here is human nature. These platforms are just the force multiplier. Misinformation is alive and well on Lemmy as well. It just flies under the radar for the most part because it doesn't go against your prior beliefs.

Thorny_Insight ,

I don't think there's a silver bullet for it. What works is critical thinking and humility about what you don't know. One good rule of thumb is to keep in mind that things are virtually always nuanced and complicated. When ever someone presents something as simple, straight forward, black and white etc. an alarm should go off. Even when what is being said might not technically be incorrent it's still often just one side of the story. There's always the other side to it as well. Nothing/no one is all bad or all good. If one stands for a cause but can't make a single good faith argument against their own view about it then they're not thinking honestly about it.

Thorny_Insight , (edited )

Yeah that's another rule-of-thumb: Never say never or always, there's always an exception. I'm also fully aware of the irony of that whole sentence.

Yeah I get what you mean. Would be nice to have but I don't know how such an add-on would work in practice. I imagine that rather than filtering it out it would instead need to be something that adds a correction/context next to it. There's usually atleast a kernel of truth even in misinformation so simply just hiding it doesn't seem optimal either. An interesting point about free-speech I heard recently was that by silencing the fringes it leaves the rest of us ignorant to what views people hold as well as prevents us from hearing all the evidence that they're wrong. Generally I'm not against misinformation on places like Lemmy but what I do wish is that the top comment on each thread was the one providing nuance, context and correction. This place just doesn't encourage that. There's a set of accepted beliefs and viewpoints and anything going against that is just met with hostility. Cognitive dissonance is a powerful psychological phenomenom and people don't like their beliefs challenged.

Thorny_Insight ,

For quite some time now I've had the issue that the video simply refuses to stop playing requiring me to refresh the page. Might be an issue with one of the add-ons too though.

Thorny_Insight ,

Same here. Went to trade school, working at construction since I was 21, bought my first car around the same time, bought house at 25. Now at 30+ I got like 80k€ left on my mortage and no other loans. Around +50k€ in savings mostly invested into index funds. I could be doing better but I can't complain. Recently started my own bussines so we'll see how that goes.

My only friend I keep hearing the type of complaints from that I read about on lemmy every day went to photography school but is an aspiring painter/artist now instead. For some reason money's tight and it's because of capitalism apparently. Go figure..

Thorny_Insight ,

Not even remotely accurate interpretation of what I said.

ChatGPT Answers Programming Questions Incorrectly 52% of the Time: Study (gizmodo.com)

The research from Purdue University, first spotted by news outlet Futurism, was presented earlier this month at the Computer-Human Interaction Conference in Hawaii and looked at 517 programming questions on Stack Overflow that were then fed to ChatGPT....

Thorny_Insight ,

We only need to keep doing incremental improvements in the technology and avoid destroying ourselves in the meantime. That's all it takes for us to find ourselves in the presence of superintelligent AI one day.

Thorny_Insight ,

You can find out how different news outlets feel about a person by the type of pictures they use of them. Once you see it, it can't be ignored.

Thorny_Insight ,

The ultimate goal of this technology is to enable the blind to see, deaf to hear and the paralyzed to walk. Not that you can watch netflix in your mind.

Thorny_Insight ,

It's Russian. Doesn't really matter how good it is, personally I would stay far away from it.

Thorny_Insight ,

I'm generally the one defending Tesla in these threads but on Waymo's defence; the remote operators aren't actually controlling the car. Instead when faced with a challenging situation the car "calls home" for assistance basically asking a human to take a look at the situation and help it to decide what to do. This might be a car partially blocking the lane of traffic cones placed in a weird manner so the car justs asks for assurance that it's okay to proceed. In the most difficult situations the remote operator can suggest a route for the vehicle to take but the decision on what to do is ultimately on the vehicle itself.

Thorny_Insight ,

This is literally the only way we'll ever get self-driving cars. You have to test them in real life. Simulations and tests tracks can only take you so far. Yeah it'll probably cost the lifes of some number of people but this will be greatly outnumbered by the amount of lives saved when the technology actually starts working as intented. It's not like human driven vehicles are exactly safe for pedestrians either.

Also, when a self-driving vehicle fails it almost always means it ends up getting stuck somewhere or blocking the road. It's extremely rare for it to cause an accident, though that does happen aswell.

Thorny_Insight ,

Humans can drive just fine without lidar aswell. Road infrastructure is designed for vision. The car not being able to see is not the issue. It's teaching the car to understand what it sees and how to deal with it. Lidar doesn't help you solve this issue.

Thorny_Insight ,

There are currently 80+ people dying every single day just in the US alone because we don't have self-driving cars. Not developing that technology is just as much of a choise to let people die than going forward with it. I'd argue it's the moral thing to do. People are awful at driving. As a fan of cars I like to go sit by the freeway watching them passing by several times a week and the number of people driving 120kph while staring at their phones is mind boggling.

Not only that but virtually all of those vehicles are going to be electric as well so that also means less people dying because of air pollution. Then there's also the fact that it'll bring down the cost of taxies immensely as well as allowing private individuals to let their vehicle go do ride sharing for the day instead of sitting on the parking lot of their work place unused. There's just too many upsides to it. Also it's not like passengers getting killed by rogue self-driving vehicles is a particularly common occurance despite the technology still being at it's infancy. This is the worst they're ever going to be.

Thorny_Insight ,

I'll try to remember that!

Thorny_Insight , (edited )

Mercedes Drive Pilot only works on a handful of hand-picked highways is California and Nevada. It must have a car in front of it to follow. It can't go over 40mph. It can't navigate thru interchanges. It can't be used in inclement weather. It doesn't work around flashing lights. It doesn't work on construction sites. It doesn't work in night time. It cannot change lanes and it doesn't work on roads without lane markings.

It's effectively a train except train can take you to more places. Also, it must have a driver who can take over when needed. That's level 3 self driving. Waymo is level 4.

Here's what happens when you put Mercedes Driver Assist (Not Drive Pilot) against Tesla's FSD. Tl;dw: It's completely useless.

Thorny_Insight ,

Like I said; there's only so much you can test on a closed track. At some point you must start doing that in the real world. Pedestrians getting killed by experimental self-driving vehicles is not an actual issue we're dealing with right now but more like a theoretical possibility of what could happen in the future. There are only a couple of such incidents recorded ever. That's not a good enough reason to not continue with it.

What I mean by them now being the worst they'll ever be is the self-driving technology itself. It's constantly improving and the trend is towards better. The technology we have right now is the worst it's ever going to be.

Thorny_Insight ,

How could anyone know that? It just as well might.

It's a fallacy to think we can build a perfect world where all bad things can be avoided. With all new technology comes downsides. We're already losing 80+ a day in the US alone because we don't have self driving cars. It's far more likely for someone close to me to get killed by a human driver.

Thorny_Insight ,

You don't need to "jerk" the wheel. You only need to touch it gently. This is because level 2 is "hands on" system. Allegedly though even this will be going away with version 12.4 and from there on it's only the cabin camera that's monitoring you. It's debateable wether this is a good thing or not. Makes it easier to abuse the system.

No one is making any claims about how fast Mercedes Drive Pilot should go. Your accusation is disingenuous. I'm simply stating that it can't go over 40mph. That's pretty slow for a vehicle that can drive autonomously only on highways.

Thorny_Insight ,

Okay well I was wrong about having to turn the wheel. I'm not lying - I just didn't know. I've watched hours and hours of content of people driving with FSD and I haven't ever seen them having to do that so I didn't know it was a thing.

Anyway, that's allegedly going away with V12.4

Thorny_Insight ,

Why do you need to be such a dick about it? Just because I'm interested in self-driving technology doesn't mean I'm a Tesla fanboy. That's ad-hominem. No other brand (that I know of) makes a car you can buy that's capable of doing what Tesla's FSD can do. That's why it's the brand I most pay attention to. If you think there's some other manufacturer I should look into more closely then by all means link me a video about it.

I already daily drive my dream car and the "smartest" feature it has is anti-lock brakes. While it would be nice to test drive a modern EV I however have no interest in buying one nor could I even afford it.

Thorny_Insight ,

We're good. I tend to fall victim to the snide remarks from time to time myself as well.

To me "Full Self Driving" is just the name of the software. I've been perfectly aware from the day one that it's not actually capable of full self driving. That's a quite tired argument that I'm not interested in debating. I can however still aknowledge that Tesla has been intentionally misleading in their marketing of it.

People have different definitions for what "full self driving" means to them and by my definition Teslas are more or less capable of this. If not "full", then atleast self-driving. It's not a system I'd trust my life with but the car is capable of driving itself from point A to point B often without driver intervention so to me that fits the definition.

Also you’ll see Tesla isn’t the best by a long shot.

Then who is? Waymo self-driving taxies might be more capable at this moment but that's not something you can buy. Mercedes Drive Pilot is extremely limited and I'd argue less capable than FSD not to even mention their level 2 driver assistance software which is complete garbage. If there's a car that you can buy which does self-driving better than Teslas then I'd really like to know about it so that I can look into it more. As demonstrated above; I have no issue admiting I'm wrong when proven otherwise. I'm not in any way emotionally invested into Tesla or Elon. This just is the kind of subject where no one so far has managed to convince me I'm wrong. I truly believe that the current version of FSD is the best self-driving software currently available to consumers.

Thorny_Insight , (edited )

Are you sure you're actually aware of what the current version of FSD is capable of? Because when I try to find videos demonstrating the self-driving on those other brands they're only using the highway assistant (which Tesla calls autopilot) and thus only driving on highways and not in the cities at all. I really struggle to find videos of anyone comparing FSD to the brands you named and I'm assuming it's because there literally is no compareable system on any of the competition and Tesla is just so far ahead. The only other company with car that has similar capabilities is the Waymo's highly modified Jaguar I-Pace but that's Level 4 self-driving taxi that you cannot buy. Tesla FSD is level 2 but in reality they're not very far off despite Tesla only using cameras (and radar on hardware 4 Model S and X)

Here's a video comparing Tesla Autopilot (not FSD) to Mercedes Driver Assistance (not Drive Pilot). The video starts by showing the "official ratings" for those systems and according to them the Mercedes should be significantly better. However the real world test tells quite a different story. Mercedes 44 driver interventions versus 0 on the Tesla. And they're still only driving on a highway.

You said you drove at 244kph legally so I'm assuming you're from Germany. FSD is not available there, only the less capable Autopilot of which's basic version comes with every Tesla. FSD is paid software and much more capable.

Thorny_Insight , (edited )

But but the rains sensors and..

No, we're talking about self-driving.

FSD is literally the name of the self-driving system that’s been available on Teslas for years. There’s FSD and there’s Autopilot. They’re different systems. You live in Germany and thus have never tried FSD because it’s not available there—only in the USA. You’re talking about Autopilot; I’m talking about FSD. You can disagree all you want about whether it is actually “Full Self-Driving,” but that’s still the name of the system. Having a discussion about it is impossible if you just plug your ears and deny its existence. That is just cognitive dissonance on steroids. Full Self-Driving (Supervised) is a Level 2 driver assistance system available for Teslas in the USA only, and it’s MUCH more capable than Autopilot.

The existence of a system more advanced than Tesla’s FSD on a car you can buy would be a really big deal, and there would be a ton of videos comparing it to a Tesla on YouTube. Just link me such a video that’s less than 3 months old and shows both city and highway driving, and I’m ready to admit being wrong again.

Being blinded by hatred doesn’t make you any more honest in your judgment than being a fanboy. You’re both just as biased. It’s ridiculous how angry this all gets you.

Once more: Full Self-Driving (Supervised), previously known as Full Self-Driving (Beta) but commonly just called “FSD,” is the USA-exclusive, subscription-based self-driving software available on Teslas. It’s one of three different versions of self-driving systems that Tesla offers. The others are Autopilot and Enhanced Autopilot. Autopilot comes on all Teslas and is just a highway assistant; it’s the one you’ve tried. You clearly have no idea how capable FSD nowadays is, and you refuse to figure it out because you’d have to admit being wrong. Confidently wrong.

Thorny_Insight ,

It's called Full Self Driving (Supervised) nowdays. They changed the name.

The vehicle is capable of driving you to the grocery store on the other side of the city and back, sometimes with zero interventions from the driver. If that's not Full Self Driving then I don't know what is.

Thorny_Insight ,

How does it not fully self drive? What's your definition of full self driving then?

Mercedes Drive Pilot is Level 3 and even it will prompt you to take over when necessary, does it not fully self drive then either? What about Waymo/Cruze? They have remote operators controlling the vehicles when they get stuck. Not fully self driving either? Is the standard that it needs to be absolutely flawless and never fail or what is it?

Thorny_Insight ,

It’s about as intelligent as a newborn.

Newborns can't even utter one cohesive word. I don't get the point of making such an obviously false claims about anything.

Thorny_Insight ,

80 people die every single day in traffic accidents in the US alone and we're focusing on the leading company trying to solve this issue when their car almost hits a train.

Thorny_Insight ,

Intelligence is not binary, but a spectrum.

Thorny_Insight , (edited )

The new models with hardware 4 (atleast models S and X) have a radar but then again humans can manage without so I have no doubt that a vision-based system will be more than sufficient in the end.

Thorny_Insight ,

Then what is full self driving to you? How good does the system need to be to qualify?

Thorny_Insight ,

I can't find any source for that claim

Thorny_Insight ,

In what way is it not ready to use? Does cars have some other driver assistant features that are fool proof? You're not supposed to blindly trust any of those. Why would FSD be an exception? The standards people are aplying to it are quite unreasonable.

Thorny_Insight ,

It's called Full Self Driving (Supervised)

Yeah, it will be able to drive without driver intervention eventually. Atleast that's their goal. Right now however, it's level 2 and no-one is claiming otherwise.

In what way is it not ready to use?

Thorny_Insight ,

It's a level 2 self driving system which by definition requires driver supervision. It's even stated in the name. What are the standards it doesn't meet?

Thorny_Insight ,

What makes them the leader? You can't even buy a car from them and I would be willing to bet that the number of kilometers driven on autopilot/FSD on Teslas is orders of magnitude greater than the competition and rapidly increasing each day. Even the most charitable view would place them on par with Tesla at best. Waymo/Cruze both have remote operators helping for when their vehicles get stuck. Even the MB Drive Pilot will ask for the driver to take over when needed. They're not fully functional self-driving vehicles no more than Teslas are.

Thorny_Insight ,

You literally cannot buy FSD without being told that it needs driver supervision. It also tells you that every single time you enable it and it's constantly nagging to you when you take your hands off the wheel aswell as if you're looking at your phone etc. and given enough warnings the system locks you out of it.

Has Musk been dishonest/misleading about it's capabilities in the past? Yes. Is there a single Tesla owner with FSD who doesn't know the truth? No.

Thorny_Insight ,

Mercedes Drive Pilot is hilariously limited system. It for example needs a car in front of it that it can follow or else it wont work. It also only works on limited number of hand-picked highways in California and Nevada.

There's a video on YouTube comparing FSD to Mercedes' equivalent driver assistant software (not the level 3 one) and it's not even a competition. The Mercedes system is completely unusable.

Thorny_Insight ,

Did you watch the video? It was insanely foggy there. It makes no difference how big the obstacle is if you can't even see 50 meters ahead of you.

Also, the car did see the train. It just clearly didn't understand what it was and how to react to it. That's why the car has a driver who does. I'm sure this exact edge case will be added to the training data so that this doesn't happen again. Stuff like this takes ages to iron out. FSD is not a finished product. It's under development and receives constant updates and keeps improving. That's why it's classified as level 2 and not level 5.

Yes. It's unreasonable to expect brand new technology to be able to deal with every possible scenario that a car can encounter on traffic. Just because the concept of train in a fog makes sense to you as a human doesn't mean it's obvious to the AI.

Thorny_Insight ,

This fully autonomous argument is beat to death already. Every single Tesla owner knows you're supposed to pay attention and be ready to take over when necessary. That is such a strawman argument. Nobody blames the car when automatic braking fails to see the car infront of it. It might save your ass if you're distracted but ultimately it's always the driver whose responsible. FSD is no different.

Thorny_Insight ,

"Confidently incorrect"

Then proceeds to link over 2 year old article and even that aknowledges the existence of such system in the title.

It has an indoor camera that is constantly monitoring the driver and nags when they're not paying attention. That's a fact. Nothing what I said has been proven incorrect.

How Tesla's Driver Monitoring System Works

Thorny_Insight ,

You can't see 50 meters ahead in that fog.

Thorny_Insight ,

I agree. In fact I'm surprised the vehicle even lets you enable FSD in that kind of poor visibility and based on the video it seemed to be going quite fast aswell.

Thorny_Insight ,

Full Self Driving (Beta), nowdays Full Self Driving (Supervised)

Which of those names invokes trust to put your life in it's hands?

It's not in fine print. It's told to you when you purchase FSD and the vehicle reminds you of it every single time you enable the system. If you're looking at your phone it starts nagging at you eventually locking you out of the feature. Why would they put driver monitoring system in place if you're supposed to put blind faith into it?

That is such an old, beat up strawman argument. Yes, Elon has said it would be fully autonomous in a year or so which turned out to be a lie but nobody today is claiming it can be blindly trusted. That simply just is not true.

Thorny_Insight ,

ESP is not idiot proof either just to name one such feature that's been available for decades. It assists the driver but doesn't replace them.

Hell, cars themselves are not idiot proof.

Thorny_Insight ,

Yeah there's a wide range of ways to map the surroundings. Road infrastructure, however is designed for vision so I don't see why just cameras wouldn't be sufficient. The issue here is not that it's didn't see the train - it's on video, after all - but that it didn't know how to react to it.

Thorny_Insight ,

It's misleading advertising for sure. At no point have I claimed otherwise.

The meaning of what qualifies as "full self driving" is still up for debate however. There are worse human drivers on the roads than what the current version of FSD is capable of. It's by no means flawless but it's much better than most people even realize. It's a vehicle capable of self driving even if not fully.

Thorny_Insight ,

Sure. Make then change the name to something different. I'm fine with that.

Though I still don't know what most people actually mean by full self driving and how it's different from what FSD can do right now.

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