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What are your thoughts on USB storage drives that have keypad encryption?

It seems like the benefits are having the device lock/wipe itself after a set amount of attempts in case of a brute force attack and not having to run software to decrypt the drive on the device you plug it into.

I included a picture of the IronKey Keypad 200 but that's just because it's the first result that came up when I was looking for an example. There seem to be a few other manufacturers and models out there and they probably have different features.

I am curious what do you think of them? Do you think they are useful? Do you find it more a novelty?

It was an ExplainingComputers video titled Very Useful Small Computing Things that made me think of them.

ryannathans ,

Nice just look at the most worn buttons

WarmSoda ,

Damn. Dude just comes in and ends the entire discussion.

CorrodedCranium OP , (edited )
@CorrodedCranium@leminal.space avatar

It seems like these drives can use up to 15 digit pins and lock out after a set number of attempts. I don't know if that would be a huge issue

ninpnin ,

Permutations have entered the chat

NuXCOM_90Percent ,

It still drastically narrows down the search space and makes social engineering a LOT easier.

Because you tend to have one of two sources for any password that people need to remember.

  1. Randomly generated with no rhyme or reason. And written down on a sticky note as a result
  2. Something with meaning to the user

And it is the latter where this becomes an issue. Because let's say they are a 50 year old and 1, 4, 6, 7, and 9 are heavily worn. Well, they were born in the 70s so let's verify exactly when. Hmm, May. No 5 means it probably isn't their birthday. Wait... their partner was born on April 7th, 1976. No luck. Oh, but what if they were clever and it is actually 197647 instead of 471976? Boom, in.

CorrodedCranium OP , (edited )
@CorrodedCranium@leminal.space avatar

Related XKCD

https://leminal.space/pictrs/image/78609103-00d3-44ce-95a5-e8ba6ccba7ae.png

It's a shame more people don't think of obscure numbers they've been forced to remember in the past or see constantly and use those.

  • A number from a song

  • Your middle school locker combination

  • The number of a local pizza place

  • Your library card number

  • The barcode number on something you carry around all the time

If you combined any two of those I imagine it would make for a pretty secure password.

NuXCOM_90Percent ,

No. That xkcd (not loading but I assume it is the password one?) is not relevant. Because you can't make a meaningful and easy to remember mnemonic out of a numeric password. That is WHY a purely numeric password is bad for anything that needs security. They are great for 2fa but the unique key should still be the other device.

And all of your good codes are similarly easy to social engineer out, are screwed the moment it is compromised once, or are literally reading off a sticky note.

Which gets back to these kinds of devices largely being security theatre. Because there is no good use case for them that wouldn't also involve encrypting the data/volume after you pin in. At which point... why waste money on something conspicuous with an easy to crack code?

CorrodedCranium OP ,
@CorrodedCranium@leminal.space avatar

I included it because passwords don't need to be hard to remember. If they make sense to you and have a bit of thought behind them they can be just as secure.

I am not saying these codes are perfect but if they are the weakest link in your network of security it's a decent start. Someone could be trying to get your passcode for days but unless they see you checking something like the bar code of a notebook before you have it memorized they could spend months guessing before realizing a segment of your passcode is the number of a pizza place in your hometown. It's not exactly something that's going to come up naturally.

I mentioned it in another comment but they also lock you out after a set number of attempts preventing brute force attacks.

I am not saying they aren't overpriced for what you are getting ($100 for 8GB) and considering the other options that are available but I doubt they are significantly easier to crack than a smartphone

NuXCOM_90Percent ,

Look up how hard it is for humans to remember long strings of numbers. That is WHY ICQ (and eventually phone numbers) were dropped almost immediately in favor of social media and the ability to exchange numbers just by tapping phones.

And in the time it would take to memorize a bar code (12-ish digits, depending on standard) you likely should be rotating that password anyway. And in the time it would take to memorize it you are also very blatantly reading off a sticky note as you "discretely" look at your notebook every time you want to access your password database in public. And if you aren't in public? Why go through these extra steps when there are much better ways to secure this that are a lot more obvious if they are tampered with.

I get that a youtuber you like talked about this. Youtubers talk about a lot of stupid products in the interest of making Content. But maybe listen to the people who have experience with this kind of hardware and the kind of security theatre policies that make them "a good idea".

CorrodedCranium OP , (edited )
@CorrodedCranium@leminal.space avatar

I get that a youtuber you like talked about this. Youtubers talk about a lot of stupid products in the interest of making Content. But maybe listen to the people who have experience with this kind of hardware and the kind of security theatre policies that make them "a good idea".

I think you might be confused. I'm not saying these devices are good. I started the post by asking if people thought they were a novelty. I just don't think it's as black and white as you are making it out to be and we got off on a tangent about passwords.

I think often enough people have a few numbers memorized that they can use and a lot of the time they're going to be too obscure to social engineer. I don't think you could do some CSI Miami style deduction to easily find out a passcode that's over ten digits in length.

I will admit you could probably brute force it and it's going to take less time than an alpha numeric password.

wreckedcarzz ,
@wreckedcarzz@lemmy.world avatar

a number from a song

I've got it! 8, 6, 7, 5, 3, 0, 9. Bulletproof, thanks op!

CorrodedCranium OP ,
@CorrodedCranium@leminal.space avatar

That's why I said to combine it with something else. Jenny's number might be in a dictionary that is used in a brute force attack but hopefully something like your middle school locker combination isn't. It's still 7 extra bits of entropy.

wreckedcarzz ,
@wreckedcarzz@lemmy.world avatar

(yeah yeah but that's not funny so I ignored it :p)

Preflight_Tomato ,

Password Entropy = length * log2(possible_chars). So this would actually add 7*log2(10) => 23 bits of entropy, assuming the attacker knew that this section was numeric, or ~45 bits if they didn't.

For anyone curious: Current best practice is a minimum of 100 bits, or 16 characters assuming only letters, numbers, and special characters. The recommended minimum bits increases every year with computing power.

CorrodedCranium OP ,
@CorrodedCranium@leminal.space avatar

Whoops thanks for the correction

fidodo ,

Just press the rest of the keys after you unlock it. Or use all the keys in the password. Or purposefully scuff them up.

GolfNovemberUniform ,
@GolfNovemberUniform@lemmy.ml avatar

Too expensive. Use software encryption instead

montar ,

I see one use-case, If you're going w/ sth illegal as hell to a place where you might get arrested and searched for just being there i.e a protest, nuking your (illegal) data might save your ass.

makeasnek ,
@makeasnek@lemmy.ml avatar

Hardware signing devices have lots of utility because they keep the key from ever being on the machine (which is more likely to be compomised). Think ledger or trezor for your Bitcoin. Hardware encryption devices are just really expensive and black-box ways to avoid Veracrypt.

If your encryption algorithm is secure, you have no use for automatic lock-out. If it's not, automatic lockout won't do much against an attacker with physical access to the device. Unless they are dumb enough to trigger the lockout AND the internal memory wipes itself sufficiently well AND/OR the attacker doesn't have the resources to reverse engineer the device.

kevincox ,
@kevincox@lemmy.ml avatar

If your encryption algorithm is secure, you have no use for automatic lock-out.

This isn't true. You need your algorithm and your key to be secure. If the key needs to be remembered or entered often it probably can't be secure. So brute force protection becomes very important.

If it’s not, automatic lockout won’t do much against an attacker with physical access to the device.

This isn't true. Yes, with enough time and effort it is possible to extract any data from any device. But in practice physical HSMs do an excellent job at raising the cost of key extraction. I would much rather have an attacker steal my Yubikey than a USB with my GPG key lying on it.

NabeGewell ,
@NabeGewell@lemmy.world avatar

I wouldn't trust any part of its hardware and software to store anything worth encrypting on it

INHALE_VEGETABLES ,

I'll store my weird shit on an unsecured hard drive stashed in the woods. Like those that came before me, and those before me.

THE_MASTERMIND ,

You meant and those before them right ?

INHALE_VEGETABLES ,

You heard what I said. You heard it just like those before me.

Churbleyimyam ,

Store it in your bosses garden.

YeetPics ,
@YeetPics@mander.xyz avatar

These are handy if you have to move sensitive information but I've experienced more than one event at work where irreplaceable files were lost due to user error on these type of drives.

I couldn't tell you about the lifespan of these devices either, something tells me the keys won't last more than a few years if it's being used regularly.

kevincox ,
@kevincox@lemmy.ml avatar

If your only copy of critical data is on a portable storage device you are doing so many things wrong.

YeetPics , (edited )
@YeetPics@mander.xyz avatar

Agreed.

Have to stay within hipaa, sadly that means tech-illiterate c suite dipshits make decisions on hardware.

Count042 ,

I don't trust hardware implementations of encryption in the same way I don't trust hardware raid arrays.

hanke ,

The IronKey has been cracked

Toribor ,
@Toribor@corndog.social avatar

Like most things, it's important to remember what threats you're trying to protect yourself against.

Are you trying to protect yourself against dropping a USB in a parking lot and someone picking it up? Or are you trying to protect yourself from a nation state?

potatopotato ,

Just my opinion but I don't really like the common belief of separating nation and non nation state actors. We're getting to the point where nation states are making up a large portion of the really damaging attacks, and it's frequently ones own government or a government they're in conflict with which means there are very kinetic consequences for failure even if you're a nobody. It's not just someone stealing some money anymore.

Pantherina ,

Only buy stuff with upgradeable firmware.

HelixDab2 ,

Seems like it's a good starting point.

I wonder if you can encrypt the files prior to storing them on the key, which would then encrypt them a second time with a different method. Would the compromise the data in any meaningful way? Or would it mean that you had to decrypt the key and then decrypt the data a second time?

CorrodedCranium OP ,
@CorrodedCranium@leminal.space avatar

I believe you would have to decrypt them a second time. For example if you wanted to be real secure you could have the USB device, an encrypted folder that holds important documents and files you want to back up, and inside of that could be a password database that requires a Yubikey or similar device.

I believe what you are talking about is kind of like using a combination of cascading algorithms like AES->Twofish–>Serpent.

I could be wrong though. If I am I hope someone can correct me.

HelixDab2 ,

So if that's correct, then a single company breaking the IronKey isn't, by itself, that big of a deal unless and until the knowledge bcomes fairly widely available.

CorrodedCranium OP ,
@CorrodedCranium@leminal.space avatar

I think it's a factor to consider but it depends on your threat model. A few people have linked an article about a Bitcoin wallet that was on one of these drives that was cracked. I imagine replicating the process would be difficult but with a big enough group going after you who knows?

The extra layers of security always helps though.

HelixDab2 ,

I think that if your threat model is the NSA, then them having physical control over the drive--and probably you in a black site--is probably going to be the end of the road for you.

csm10495 ,
@csm10495@sh.itjust.works avatar

I had one of the SanDisk flash drives that had some launcher thing on it and I had a password for some reason on it.

In high school, a classmate tried to guess it, 3 times and I lost everything on it forever, since it stupidly locked forever after 3 tries.

I had software projects from back then that I can never get back.. including a web browser. I could have had the next Firefox..

If you're out there, Liz: I'll never forgive that.

THE_MASTERMIND ,

Was it going to be open source ?

csm10495 ,
@csm10495@sh.itjust.works avatar

I didn't know what that was yet.. but probably.

TonyTonyChopper ,
@TonyTonyChopper@mander.xyz avatar

Liz taught you to make backups of data you value

HowMany ,

Something else to break down.

Churbleyimyam ,

Good until you spill a Cuppasoup on it's chinesium keyboard.

inclementimmigrant ,

I use them in my job and I find them better than the software only solution and I like them when I have to use them for sensitive file transfers.

Imprint9816 ,

Yeah i dont see how this would be better then a run of the mill thumb drive (that doesnt scream im worth stealing) and just creating a cryptomator vault on it.

fidodo ,

Is that solution portable for any device and os you might plug it into?

Pantherina ,

No its not I think, at least Androids restricted af model doesnt allow that.

Same with veracrypt

fidodo ,

I view portability to be the main benefit of a hardware solution. I agree that software options will allow for better security, but imo a less secure hardware option is better than nothing if portability is a requirement.

Imprint9816 ,

Its available on linux mac and windows so id say it's pretty portable. You could even keep unencrypted installers on the same thumb drive in case internet access is an issue.

fidodo ,

Available or built in? Because there are a lot of jobs and use cases where you need to transfer to systems you don't have full control over.

Imprint9816 ,

At that point you should probably use a cloud based solution anyway. Any decently secured system wouldn't let you plug in a random usb drive anyway.

I had assumed the use case was more for travel not for trying to access sensitive data on systems that you have limited access.

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