Texas power prices briefly soar 1,600% as a spring heat wave is expected to drive record demand for energy

edboythinks , 12 days ago

uh oh, somebody did a capitalism

tal , 12 days ago (edited 12 days ago)

Texas has also become a hotbed for bitcoin mining, adding to electricity demand, as the state’s deregulated power market and abundance of cheap natural gas became attractive to the energy-intensive sector.

Hmm.

That actually might make a lot of sense.

So, if Texas has inexpensive electricity most of the time, but also has occasional high price spikes...bitcoin mining is something where you do not need power now. Sure, you're losing money on your hardware and space if it's not running, but my guess is that bitcoin miners probably can do just fine shutting their systems down when prices rise above a certain point. That would tend to smooth out electricity prices.

I'd been trying to think of electricity users that could defer usage and use a lot of electricity, which are something that you want if you have wildly-varying demand and want to smooth it out, and I suppose that coin mining is actually probably a pretty good example.

abeorch , 12 days ago

There is a lot of work happening in thermal mass storage for industrial heat demand (currently most industrial processes use Natural Gas to supply heat) .

Almost all Data Centre activity could be priced relative to electricity price allowing dynamic scaling.

DMBFFF , 13 days ago

Texas indeed has been blessed with much sunlight to make solar energy quite viable. This includes solar hot water heaters, and many trees to grow with vigour and bio-filtrate.

MeThisGuy , 13 days ago

I love me some bio-filtrate

FlyingSquid , 12 days ago

and many trees to grow with vigour

Not so vigorous when climate change causes a massive drought.

DMBFFF , 11 days ago

They have 591 km of coastline.

lots of salt water + lots of solar energy = lots of desalinated water

FlyingSquid , 11 days ago

What do you do with all the leftover toxic brine?

DMBFFF , 11 days ago

Presumably it's toxic mostly because of the concentration of salt.

If it can't be used—and up north salt is used in winter for roads—it can be cleaned a bit, diluted with more seawater and discharged back into the ocean.

((the brine of 1 mass unit of seawater that's been desalinated) + 20 units of regular seawater) ÷ 20 = 20 units of 5% saltier seawater discharged

FlyingSquid , 11 days ago

You make it sound so safe and easy. It isn't.

https://archive.ph/V64Cq

https://www.sciencenews.org/article/desalination-pours-more-toxic-brine-ocean-previously-thought

DMBFFF , 11 days ago

What is their ratios-of-brine to seawater do they use?

FlyingSquid , 11 days ago

It's nice that you think you, without any experience in the matter, can solve problems with desalination that engineers in the field can't, but I doubt you are actually able to.

DMBFFF , 11 days ago

My question isn't totally rhetorical: I'm but an pseudonymous person on the internet.

Also, I don't think it's an engineering problem as much as a political one.

unreasonabro , 13 days ago (edited 12 days ago)

shitty cruel systems texas likes to inflict on its citizens, the gun-totingest murican motherfuckers there are. kinda surprised they just bend over and take it. guess gun toting losers really are just losers

MeThisGuy , 13 days ago

nothing but steers and queers in texas

DMBFFF , 11 days ago

my favourite scene of that movie is when that drill instructor got shot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOZg8arCICU

https://youtu.be/nT8Q6j1amz8?t=1150 (cued)

Crikeste , 13 days ago

Gotta love capitalism.

DMBFFF , 13 days ago

particularly if you have lots of PVC cells to sell.

atrielienz , 13 days ago

Gotta love unregulated capitalism.

Sam_Bass , 13 days ago

The weather has absolutely nothing to do with that

bolexforsoup , 13 days ago (edited 11 days ago)

spoiler

sdfsaf

magnetosphere , 13 days ago

Oh, Texas. Your power grid is an endless source of amusement (for people who don’t have to rely on it, of course).

UnderpantsWeevil , 13 days ago

Losing power for three days, but knowing my energy bill will be twice as high as last months is always a cool feeling.

magnetosphere , 13 days ago

Smartass remarks aside, you have my sympathies.

UnderpantsWeevil , 13 days ago

I mean, I work in the O&G industry. Y'all have every right to be as smartass as you please.

MeThisGuy , 13 days ago

so what's the reason they're the only state independent from the national grid?
they just know better?
guess that's why they call it the lone star state

UnderpantsWeevil , 13 days ago

so what’s the reason they’re the only state independent from the national grid?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Interconnection

There's a whole article on it in Wikipedia, but the TL;DR; boils down to "If we're not connected nationally then we don't have to abide by national regulations".

That's ostensibly a cost-saving, assuming you don't think too hard about what's being regulated. But its also a great opportunity to price gouge consumers.

MeThisGuy , 13 days ago

sounds about right

ChaoticEntropy , 12 days ago

We're free to do all the great, innovative things we could want! But mostly the sneakiest, underhanded, previously illegal shit we want...

guacupado , 12 days ago

Everything's bigger in Texas.

Especially the incompetence.

guacupado , 12 days ago

The reason Texans hate government so much is because they have no idea what it looks like when it's run correctly.

postmateDumbass , 13 days ago

The Enrons are Enroning the faces.

fne8w2ah , 13 days ago

Greed and incompetience. No wonder Texas has been resistant to federal regulation and interconnect its power network with the rest of the country.

FreakinSteve , 13 days ago

Buttma taxes

wafflez , 13 days ago

What year in a row ia this?

lemmyvore , 13 days ago

I don't know but it started making international news during the pandemic, so at least 5th.

altima_neo , 13 days ago

Everything's bigger in Texas, even the power bill.

Olgratin_Magmatoe , 13 days ago

Everything is bigger in Texas

* Except the paycheck

hperrin , 13 days ago

I bet those businesses who relocated from Cali to Texas are loving those power prices.

Oh yeah, they already left Texas.

x0x7 , 13 days ago

Besides that one time power goes out more often in California. In Texas you just have a temporary price surge you could treat like a blackout if you wanted to. The difference is it's less often and you have a choice.

hperrin , 13 days ago

I haven’t had a power outage in about ten years, between SDG&E, PG&E, and SoCal Edison. Meanwhile, Texas has regular power outages. So just what are you on about?

altima_neo , 13 days ago

Texans being Texans

GnuLinuxDude , 13 days ago

Maybe power is more reliable in central Texas, my family still has no electricity from the derecho that hit Houston. And they lose power frequently from all the heavy storms or hurricanes that pummel the gulf coast.

Eww , 13 days ago

Like the time people were freezing to death during a power outage while the governor took a vacation to Cancún?

riodoro1 , 13 days ago

Exactly, they were too poor to heat their homes and that was their choice.

webadict , 13 days ago

The biggest mistake a lot of people make is being born poor.

whyrat , 13 days ago

*Senator

andros_rex , 13 days ago

Yeah, if you want a governor abandoning his people, look to Kevin Stitt (Oklahoma) last year when Tulsa was without power for about a week. Lieutenant Governor was out too, literally no one had any idea who was in charge of the state.

gravitas_deficiency , 13 days ago

Lol so how’s that “deregulated freedom” working out for you, Texans?

Wanderer , 13 days ago

"Last year, Texas overtook California in large-scale solar power capacity. When huge amounts of solar power rush onto the grid, batteries tend to follow. Now, Texas is building more grid batteries than California, the longtime undisputed leader in clean energy storage."

https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/energy-storage/texas-will-add-more-grid-batteries-than-any-other-state-in-2024

puppy , 13 days ago

You didn't answer their question though. You gave an example of how power companies are doing, not how texans are doing.

Also, if Texas is having record solar installations, why is power so expensive?

lucas , 13 days ago

@puppy @Wanderer Greed?

bluewing , 13 days ago (edited 13 days ago)

While I don't think the way Texas has the regulations setup is a good idea, one has to look more at the 'whole picture' and do the math. Is the low cost periods low enough that when you get 'gouged' by the spikes, what was the total average cost? If the spikes are taken as a average over time, then maybe it works out in the consumer's favor or at worst break even, then it might be worth it. Or maybe it doesn't But I honestly don't know. I don't have the numbers in front of me to do the math, I'm a 1000+ miles away from Texas.

Edit to add: I don't know just how much extra electricity Texas will need to buy, but I would assume they will be buying a noticeable amount. And the cost of electricity is VERY expensive in the spot market. It's why my co-op is doing major upgrades to the hydro-electric dam. To increase the efficiency and reduce the need to buy expensive spot market power.

And without a good way to store the excess power generated, solar and wind aren't very good for peak loads. You can't merely flip a switch and spool up more power than a solar panel or wind generator can produce. Clouds reduce efficiency, insufficient or too much winds shut down wind generators. And despite having more alternative generation than everyone's hero - California, it still not enough to carry the whole load. Consumers are raising demand far faster than enough infrastructure can be built out to supply that demand. So for peak loads, natural gas generators are used because they can be turned on and off quickly as needed. This adds excess cost.

The installation of storage batteries farms is fantastic. But it will take time and it will add cost to consumers electric bill.

And despite some tankie's beliefs, nothing is free - it all costs something. I'm a member of a tiny rural electric co-op. The co-op needs to make a profit to afford maintenance and upgrades to our tiny grid. Our power is generated by a hydro-electric dam and my rates have gone up this year to to cover the costs of some major maintenance on the dam and the addition of 3 new linemen to keep the electricity flowing to my heat pump that the co-op incentivizes and highly encourages.

Wanderer , 13 days ago

Its wholesale prices, it's what they do. Same in Europe same in Australia.

Texas looks fairly middle of the pack with decreasing prices. Compare it to another state with high levels of renewable and California is second highest after some islands and has increasing prices.

https://www.cnet.com/home/energy-and-utilities/electricity-rates-by-state/

n3m37h , 13 days ago

And yet prices still surged 1600%

orrk , 13 days ago

why would you think that any of this effects prices?

n3m37h , 13 days ago

It should reduce the costs, but Texas is so fucked....

gravitas_deficiency , 13 days ago

You are free… to pay as much as you possibly can for electricity.

orrk , 12 days ago

why? what mechanism forces them to lower prices? the same that keep corporate profits at record highs year after year? we recently saw just how silly the idea of competition making anything cheaper is when every, even tho, there was no reason for doing so, started upping the prices of groceries, because they could.

DMBFFF , 13 days ago

The higher the percentage, the greater the incentive.

Ibaudia , 13 days ago

Seems good for industry and bad for the actual populous, considering things like this can still happen lol.

BarbecueCowboy , 13 days ago

This does bring up kind of an interesting question for me at least.

I would expect that a significant contributor to the surge prices is from HVAC units and similar needing to work harder/etc. My brain also feels like solar panels are likely to work better when it's warmer, but I realize that I don't have any proof of that or know how that would work beyond 'when hot, feels like more sun rays, more sun rays good for solar?'.

On to the question, do solar panels work better in warmer temperatures and does output of solar panels scale anywhere close to comparatively with ambient temperature and/or need for HVAC and similar systems?

thedeadwalking4242 , 13 days ago

Solar works worse in higher temps

DMBFFF , 13 days ago

Is this all solar or just PVCs?

UnderpantsWeevil , 13 days ago

I would expect that a significant contributor to the surge prices is from HVAC units and similar needing to work harder/etc.

That's one end of the equation. But the other end is in how we're replacing coal plants with natural gas plants.

Coal plants are significantly slower to respond to market demand (on the scale of hours to increase/decrease supply), so they need to be run at a higher output on a longer time frame as electricity demands rise. Because ERCOT auctions electricity demand in 15 minute intervals, coal plants can't meet a short spike in demand before its come and gone. Natural gas plants don't have this problem. They can sit on their reserve fuel until the prices peak and then flood the grid with electricity on short notice.

As coal plant profitability sinks relative to gas plant cartels, the volume of electricity we produce becomes more and more easy to rig within the ERCOT auction markets. HVACs going into overdrive in the evening (typically between 3-7pm) signal a potential spike in demand. But gas plant operators get to wait until the electricity auction realizes those high prices, rather than producing electricity in advance and hoping you get to ride a wave through sunset.

do solar panels work better in warmer temperatures and does output of solar panels scale anywhere close to comparatively with ambient temperature and/or need for HVAC and similar systems?

A lot of the heat in cities like Houston comes from the humidity combined with the sun, so a bit of breeze can drastically impact the gross demand for electricity. Meanwhile, electric components of all sorts (photovoltaics included) perform worse in the heat. Breeze can also impact electricity available from wind turbines, which further shift prices.

Batteries can help renewable energy companies hedge against peak production relative to peak consumption. But, again, a private market maker still wants to chase the highest returns. So putting a bunch of quick-to-discharge batteries on a grid alongside quick-to-ramp-up natural gas turbines means... more cartel price fixing.

A_Random_Idiot , 13 days ago

what kind of woke liberal socialism is this?

don't they know those solar power panels will use up all the sun! What will happen when we run out of sun?! /s

gravitas_deficiency , 13 days ago

Probably the same thing that will happen to all the athletes once they run out of their finite lifetime supply of energy :(

Wanderer , 13 days ago

Its just free market capitalism.

They also have more than double the wind power of any other state.

A_Random_Idiot , 13 days ago

Thats not capitalism. Capitalism doesnt involve that evil demonrat satan technology like wind and solar! /s

Wanderer , 12 days ago

Just because people in Texas are wrong about what capitalism is doesn't mean people on this website can't also be wrong, quite often even more so.

A_Random_Idiot , 12 days ago

You must be a blast at parties.

Wanderer , 12 days ago

Only when it's really well organised fun.

But this website has the lowest economic literacy I have ever seen. It's really dangerous that people might think the majority know what they are talking about.

UnderpantsWeevil , 13 days ago

So, this is definitely good from an infrastructure perspective. But because the infrastructure is all privately owned and operated in pursuit of profit, the cost problem isn't solved by the new capital.

Much like with all the new natural gas electric plants, these battery centers simply exist to exploit the short periods of time in which Texas electricity prices jump from $25 Mwh to $3000 Mwh. As the cartels sink their claws deeper into the retail market, the possibility of enormous price spikes increase, with base loads falling and surge pricing becoming much more common.

Wanderer , 13 days ago

It's not a cartel risk. It's a supply and demand equation. More supply means lower prices.

It's just market prices.

UnderpantsWeevil , 13 days ago

It’s not a cartel risk. It’s a supply and demand equation.

Cartels love industries with inelastic demand.

It’s just market prices.

Markets aren't magic. Prices are a consequence of human decisions. And if you can withhold electricity from the grid to maximize returns (by forming a cartel with other producers) you can drive those prices up when people can least afford to reduce consumption.

Wanderer , 13 days ago

Isn't it tonnes of different people, farmers and such. Too many for a cartel to form. Reducing supply is just going to mean to make less money.

Batteries are making the grid a lot more elastic.

UnderpantsWeevil , 13 days ago

Isn’t it tonnes of different people, farmers and such.

Farmers and such are not selling power on the Texas wholesale electric grid, no.

Reducing supply is just going to mean to make less money.

Because fossil fuel supplies are limited, you can often make more money selling a small amount onto the market at a high price than a large amount onto the market at a low price.

Wanderer , 13 days ago

Some people ideas of capitalism are so warped.

If there is an energy cartel report them.

UnderpantsWeevil , 13 days ago

If there is an energy cartel report them.

I'll notify Ken Paxton right away. I'm sure he'll get right on it.

Wanderer , 13 days ago

Well done. Don't forgot to attach your evidence.

snooggums , 13 days ago

So weird that other states are able to avoid such ridiculous price swings and are able to mitigate most of the downtime caused by extreme weather disruptions than Texas is unable to handle.

exanime , 13 days ago

Enjoy the freedom!