FaceDeer

FaceDeer , 3 months ago

I do. It's frankly selfish. Having an AI get training on my old comments costs me nothing and it results in the development of useful AI tools. Trying to sabotage that is petty and pointless. It's not like you could somehow collect the fraction of a pittance that you think you're owed retroactively. I never commented on Reddit thinking "awesome, I'm going to make bank on the content I'm generating here."

People complain about the capitalist mindset of the world and then they do this. Sigh.

FaceDeer , 3 months ago

That's up to the recipient to sort out as they need.

FaceDeer , 3 months ago

After all the hue and cry I have seen over stuff like Threads and Bluesky federation I don't imagine most people using the Fediverse have a particularly coherent philosophy on the matter.

FaceDeer , 3 months ago

Negative examples are often just as useful for training an AI as positive ones. And it all depends on what you want to use the AI for. A moderator bot, for example, needs familiarity with the whole range of user responses it might see.

FaceDeer , 3 months ago

The classic "screw everyone else, I want mine."

What fraction of a penny do you think you're owed?

FaceDeer , 3 months ago

What do you think this thread is about?

FaceDeer , 3 months ago

The more accessible training data there is the easier it is for new AI projects to enter the field less dominant those "giant corporations" become.

The free labour was already freely given. If someone doesn't want to have shitposted on Reddit for free then maybe they shouldn't have shitposted on Reddit for free.

FaceDeer , 3 months ago

Thanks. Sometimes a randomly-chosen name from 13 years ago just takes on a life of its own over time. :)

FaceDeer , 3 months ago

This is the most frustrating thing, so many people are arguing against their own interests with their efforts to "lock down" their content to prevent AIs from training on it. In this very thread I've been accused of being pro-giant-company when I'm quite the opposite. The harder we make it to train AI, the stronger the advantage that the existing giant companies have in this field.

FaceDeer , 3 months ago

I'm not sure what you mean here. Nothing's being stolen. Even if you think there needs to be permission for training an AI off of data, Reddit has that permission.

FaceDeer , 3 months ago

It's the insistence that everything that people do must be compensated with money. People have spent years posting on Reddit for fun, without any thought to being paid for it, and now all of a sudden someone else is making some money so they're demanding that they should get their slice. And doing what they can to wreck their earlier efforts when they don't.

How does Reddit making some money licensing this stuff harm those of us who contributed to it? Is there any problem aside from "I wanna get paid!"?

FaceDeer , 3 months ago

If you did it over the API debacle then you're not one of the people I'm talking about here. This is about people deleting their content to prevent it from being used to train AIs.

FaceDeer , 3 months ago

That's ignoring an awful lot of other considerations. Obviously Reddit hasn't explained itself in a trustworthy way, but a common belief at the time is that it was to force people to use the official Reddit mobile app so they could be subject to advertising.

FaceDeer , 3 months ago

And I'm free to judge them however I wish for their actions and intent.

FaceDeer , 3 months ago

Good luck with that.

FaceDeer , 3 months ago

But they don’t want others to profit off it either.

And that's why I call them selfish. It doesn't harm them in the slightest if someone else profits off of it.

FaceDeer , 3 months ago

That spells out what they were doing. It doesn't explain why they were doing it.

FaceDeer , 3 months ago

What about them? I don't see why they'd care what AI companies are doing in that case. They'd assume they were just wasting money on this stuff.

FaceDeer , 3 months ago

They posted content on a website whose user agreement says "we can do whatever we like with the content you post here" and then go surprised-pikachu when the website goes ahead and does whatever they like with the content they posted. Frankly, I'm not tremendously sympathetic. This should have been easy to predict.

FaceDeer , 3 months ago

You can't put conditions on it retroactively. You already published.

FaceDeer , 3 months ago

AI trainers do a lot of work filtering and reformatting the training data. Often that's the most expensive part. There's a lot of synthetic data used these days too, reprocessed by other AIs.

FaceDeer , 3 months ago

"But with my approval and for free" are new conditions that weren't present when you originally published it on Reddit.

FaceDeer , 3 months ago

From the current Reddit User Agreement:

You retain any ownership rights you have in Your Content, but you grant Reddit the following license to use that Content:

When Your Content is created with or submitted to the Services, you grant us a worldwide, royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive, transferable, and sublicensable license to use, copy, modify, adapt, prepare derivative works of, distribute, store, perform, and display Your Content and any name, username, voice, or likeness provided in connection with Your Content in all media formats and channels now known or later developed anywhere in the world. This license includes the right for us to make Your Content available for syndication, broadcast, distribution, or publication by other companies, organizations, or individuals who partner with Reddit. You also agree that we may remove metadata associated with Your Content, and you irrevocably waive any claims and assertions of moral rights or attribution with respect to Your Content.

I found a historical version from 10 years ago and that version already had this:

you agree that by posting messages, uploading files, inputting data, or engaging in any other form of communication with or through the Website, you grant us a royalty-free, perpetual, non-exclusive, unrestricted, worldwide license to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, translate, enhance, transmit, distribute, publicly perform, display, or sublicense any such communication in any medium (now in existence or hereinafter developed) and for any purpose, including commercial purposes, and to authorize others to do so.

Haven't dug up anything earlier than this, do you know of any?

Basically, you gave Reddit your approval long ago.

FaceDeer , 3 months ago

Did you use the service in the last 10 years?

FaceDeer , 3 months ago

Well, I guess you could take them to court.

The important thing here IMO is not so much the enforceability as the intent. It was always obvious that Reddit would do whatever they wanted with the stuff we published there because they said they would do whatever they wanted with the stuff we published there. Personally, I knew this and just shrugged because it's no skin off my back if they do whatever they want with the stuff I published there - I was having fun posting, which was my goal. If they figured out some way to make those posts valuable then bully for them. They weren't otherwise valuable to me so it costs me nothing.

It's the same here on the Fediverse. When I post this stuff I'm tossing it out into the ether. It's on an open protocol intended to broadcast my comments to any compatible instances, so even if there isn't some literal terms of service that I signed that says "this content may show up on Threads or wherever" I know that it might show up on Threads or wherever. If I was truly fundamentally opposed to that then I wouldn't post.

FaceDeer , 3 months ago

I pasted your question verbatim into Bing Chat. Here's what it responded with:

Artificial Intelligence (AI) indeed has a wide range of benefits that extend beyond the ones you’ve mentioned. Here are some areas where AI is making a significant impact:

• Healthcare: AI is used in predicting disease outbreaks, drug discovery, personalized treatment plans, and improving patient care. For example, machine learning models can analyze medical images to detect diseases at early stages.
• Education: AI can provide personalized learning experiences, identify gaps in learning materials, and automate administrative tasks. It can adapt to individual learning styles, making education more accessible.
• Environment: AI can help in climate modeling, predicting natural disasters, and monitoring wildlife. It’s also used in optimizing energy usage in buildings and manufacturing processes, contributing to sustainability.
• Transportation: Autonomous vehicles use AI for navigation, safety, and traffic management. AI can also optimize logistics, leading to reduced costs and environmental impact.
• Security: AI can enhance cybersecurity by detecting unusual patterns or anomalies in data, helping to prevent cyber attacks. It’s also used in surveillance systems to identify potential threats.
• Accessibility: AI can help people with disabilities by providing tools that improve their ability to interact with the world. Examples include speech recognition for those unable to use a keyboard, and visual recognition systems that can describe the environment to visually impaired individuals.

While it’s true that AI can be used to generate profits for corporations, it’s important to remember that many of these advancements also lead to societal benefits. However, like any technology, AI can be misused, and it’s crucial to have regulations and ethical guidelines in place to prevent such misuse. The creation of “bots and fake content” you mentioned is one such misuse, and efforts are ongoing to combat these issues.

In conclusion, AI has the potential to greatly benefit society in many ways, but it’s equally important to be aware of and address its challenges.

Seems like a pretty comprehensive list of the things I'm aware of myself. There's also tons of interesting future applications being worked on that, if they pan out, will be hugely beneficial in all sorts of ways. From what I've seen of what the tech is capable of we're looking at a revolution here.

FaceDeer , 3 months ago

It was in part a demonstration. I see a huge number of questions posted these days that could be trivially answered by an AI.

Try asking Bing Chat for negative aspects of AI, it'll give you those too.

FaceDeer , 3 months ago

And so we pat ourselves on the back for not falling for the "capitalist propaganda," not recognizing all the propaganda that we have fallen for. I'd mention some examples but of course that would garner downvotes and disapproval, and thus the cycle continues.

FaceDeer , 3 months ago

Okay, here's a whole bunch I can think of off the top of my head.

• Opposition to DEI initiatives, feminism, affirmative action, immigration, etc., are rooted in racism/sexism. Even dislike for certain movies is rooted in racism/sexism.
• People are being stolen from and/or their privacy is being violated when companies use public data about them to train AI, target ads, etc. People get really mad about this.
• On a similar note, AI art "has no soul" and AI artists aren't "real artists."
• Hamas and/or Israel are evil. Pick whatever position you want on this conflict, there's a flood of propaganda pushing it and reasoned discussion that goes against it is hard.
• Everything Elon Musk does is somehow evil or idiotic.
• Cryptocurrency is a scam. AI is a scam. <insert some other new technology> is a scam.
• Religion is bad.
• All cops are bastards.
• Unions are good and corporations are bad. Heck, the "capitalism is bad" message in this comic is itself propaganda.
• Cancelling major NASA initiatives like Artemis or Mars Sample Return (or James Webb, Space Shuttle, etc. historically) would be a disaster for space exploration and science, despite their wildly spiralling costs.

Okay, that last one is perhaps getting down into the weeds of one of the more particular communities I find myself in. :)

Of course, there are other communities out there that I'm not commonly in that I expect have the opposite "everyone agrees" views on a lot of these things - DEI is part of some "gay agenda" conspiracy to groom children, Elon Musk is an infallible messiah, cops are the thin blue line protecting us from criminals, unions are destructive to the economy and cause unemployment, and so on and so forth. Propaganda is highly specific to its target audience, as this comic suggests.

The fundamental problem is just that in any significant group or community there are always hot-button issues that "everyone agrees" about, and attempting to question or discuss them with any nuance gets shouted down.

FaceDeer , 3 months ago

Same, I can admit that "both sides" have some pretty lousy people on them and still think that overall Russia are the "baddies" in this war and should ideally lose it. And that Ukraine may have some lousy people but that overall the trajectory of their society is positive and the good folks seem to be on the rise.

FaceDeer , 3 months ago

I don't think that's what top hat guy is trying to imply, I think he's just spewing some generic "our system is awesome! Don't change it!" stuff.

FaceDeer , 3 months ago

And machines have been eliminating jobs since the dawn of the industrial revolution. We've just been finding more jobs that need doing to keep up with that. No guarantee that that treadmill will run forever.

Right at this moment there are people that are doing minimum wage jobs that don’t have enough money to survive on. How about we solve the present day problems instead of worrying about the problems of some sci-fi future world?

You contradicted yourself in two sentences. People being unable to survive on what they can earn is a present day problem, not "some sci-fi future world." The problem that UBI is attempting to solve is already here. It's just going to grow worse over time.

FaceDeer , 3 months ago

I never said they were conspiracy theories. This is about groupthink and propaganda, with "propaganda" in this context being on the looser end of its definition since it's not literally government-organized. It's just a list of things that people in the communities I frequent have a common belief in that can't be easily debated due to the strength of that shared belief.

This isn't about whether I personally agree or disagree with these points. I actually do agree with some of them, I just recognize that it's difficult to discuss them with any nuance. I don't like it when people agree with me for mindless reasons either.

FaceDeer , 3 months ago

Yup. At least one of those bullet points is something I actually believe myself, I just recognize that a lot of people who believe it haven't really thought about it.

FaceDeer , 3 months ago

Where did I say otherwise? I'm only addressing the prevalence of propaganda and our susceptibility to it, not Russia's war measures or oppressive lack of free speech.

FaceDeer , 3 months ago

I must admit, "Linux becomes the refuge of luddites" was never on any bingo card I could have conceived of for 202X.

FaceDeer , 3 months ago

This is just another gripe about how Microsoft is putting AI into everything. If it's really just about the position of a button (which apparently can be changed in the settings if you still want it there) it's even more petty. Certainly not worth posting about on a general technology community.

FaceDeer , 3 months ago

That article attempts to paint Luddism in a positive light and then tries to redefine the term to mean something very for "neo-Luddites" anyway. I don't find it particularly compelling or well reasoned.

FaceDeer , 3 months ago

Not sure if it'll help with OP's rage issues (I skipped over the all-caps and punctuation-free stuff), but I've long been a fan of Open Shell. Makes the Windows experience extremely customizable.

FaceDeer , 3 months ago

And another 75% are from people who just like being part of an angry mob.

FaceDeer , 3 months ago

Where did politics enter into this? The appeal of angry mob membership is universal.

FaceDeer , 3 months ago

Of course not. Stephen Thaler is nutty and his meritless lawsuits are just a nonsense distraction at this point.

FaceDeer , 3 months ago

And their whole purpose in return is to try to guess exactly what you want to hear from them.

AI is so human!

FaceDeer , 3 months ago

That was an empty answer.

I assume there'll be some niche little fork for the die-hards for whom clicking a button in the settings to turn off the features they don't like isn't enough.

FaceDeer , 3 months ago

That part's not good. I was addressing the "They fired 60 staff and are adding AI to their flagship program to earn more money." Part.

FaceDeer , 3 months ago

Problem is that the anti-AI folk don't want me to have the option to have AI in my browser of choice.

FaceDeer , 3 months ago

The tools I want to see integrated into Firefox already exist. I've used them. It's just a matter of putting them together with it.

FaceDeer , 3 months ago

I'd say it's not even really their place to be "examining the whole economic system." Each individual is just a regular Joe who put in their time at a job over their life and would now like to reap the rewards of their effort in retirement. It bothers me when people insult other people simply for being caught up in a systemic issue that's beyond their control.

The solutions for systemic problems need to be systemic as well. If we as a society don't want to see housing move over to an exclusively rent-based system then we'll need to address it through things like zoning changes and other legal reforms. When people oppose those things by voting against them, then we can start to apportion blame around.