You would be wrong about that. My parents live in Russia and the services are fine. My mom can get an ambulance with a Doctor to come to her house for free whenever she feels ill. In the US, I would pay an arm and a leg for an ambulance without a doctor. That’s part of the problem, actually - life is decent in Russia, at least in Moscow, so people don’t rebel.
Also, “unprecedented information” doesn’t apply. It’s literally illegal to access this information in Russia. My mom has a VPN cause I had one set up for her. Otherwise she would be cut off from the outside world. She has a dummy phone without any forbidden apps that she takes with her on walks. Young people figure out a way, but anyone who is not tech savvy is fucked.
Things like UBI is part of the propaganda you're complaining about.
It's a poison pill promoted by wealthy people like Andrew Yang to distract from the need for increases in minimum wage.
If minimum wage increases corporations have to pay. With UBI, then the government pays and it doesn't cost the corporation.
But they already know it's not politically viable and will never happen anyway. Even if it does, they still don't going to pay out. Classic Xanatos Gambit.
But the main point of UBI is to get people that would normally push for an increase in minimum wage to push for UBI instead. Then the right wing can say "these clowns just want free money from the government." Centrist don't go along with it and it never happens. And neither does an increase in minimum wage which is much harder to argue against, but nobody is arguing for because of the distraction that is UBI.
UBI is all about making people take up a losing cause instead of raising minimum wage which would be a winning cause.
You swallowed the poison pill of UBI, so no minimum wage increase is happening. Their propaganda worked.
Your counterpoint to UBI is a higher minimum wage? Yes, lets ensure everyone must work for the capitalists; that will free us. Wow, you are the poison pill.
Wow, I don't usually find myself on this side of the argument, but..
Did you even read what he said?
In a republic, which we are, people have to agree on policy and their representatives vote for what the people who elect them want.
The Overton Window dictates what we can feasibly pass with popularity within a system like ours. Like it or not, the majority of voters' opinions fall within this window, and by definition, what is acceptable for our politicians to run on falls within this window. Also, the Overton window of the US has been shifting right so that actual leftist policies are outside of that window (see how little it takes for someone here to cry about how socialism is ruining everything)
Raising the minimum wage is just inside the left border of the Overton window right now. It's acceptable to talk about and most people with a clear understanding of how poverty works agree that it's a viable solution to remedy one of our nation's biggest problems.
You know it's inside of the window because various states have actually passed those changes. It's acceptable to talk about that happening on a national scale when we can see it work on a state scale.
UBI is so far left of our Overton window that it isn't implemented anywhere here (in the mainland) and can be ridiculed easily, and that's the point.
I can tell you just grabbed the first result of a Google search "why basic income works" because you linked an article with a pay wall that doesn't actually allow you to read it, leading me to believe you didn't read it either. So thanks.
However, just the title and first paragraph I was able to skim highlight the point I'm making: it doesn't matter if a system works if not enough people are willing to adopt it. Which is what the concept of the overton window is built on.
I'm not going to unfuck your source because you're too lazy to check it. The skill issue is yours, my friend
Despite the minimal effort I put in, I still managed a rebuttal. Where's yours? Oh right, you aren't interested in actually understanding the problem. You just Google a response without checking it and let other people affirm your flawed views.
Actually, before I leave you to congratulate yourself on not actually saying anything, I just want to point out how funny it is that you mic dropped an article that makes the same point I did by mistake because you didn't read it. And now you're trying to flex on me because you still haven't read it.
I'm just happy I could be part of this exchange. It's not often that someone I argue with proves themselves wrong with the very first and only point they make, and then doubles down so hard that they're just sending emojis.
I'd like to expand my point for anyone who is interested in further reading, to address the "Capitalism vs UBI" point that the person I responded to was making:
You can't just replace capitalism. It's not a good system, we can all agree on that. But short of violent revolution, no system is changed except from within the system.
You can't just say "well the alternative to UBI is just letting people suffer under capitalism" because there is no alternative to capitalism right now. Not unless we as a group of leftists work the overton window back far enough left for the masses to seriously consider abandoning capitalism in favor of something that benefits everyone.
The problem is, capitalists have known about that possibility for about 50 years and have had that much of a head start undermining any effort to do so.
It can be done, but it has to be done in smaller steps like legalizing weed, cementing abortion rights, raising the minimum wage, etc. until the masses are ready to hear that UBI might actually be a good thing.
Statements like "If UBI isn't implemented then people will just suffer under capitalism" are virtue signaling at best and the people who say those kinds of things don't have a clear understanding of how to actually affect change.
I like the downvotes I've got. What I said was objective truth. Like it or not, change doesn't happen here unless enough people are behind it to make it happen.
So those downvotes just.. Don't like it? It's like the guy in the scroll of truth meme yelling myehh at the end
People have been saying machines will eliminate all jobs since the dawn of the industrial revolution.
Right at this moment there are people that are doing minimum wage jobs that don't have enough money to survive on. How about we solve the present day problems instead of worrying about the problems of some sci-fi future world? We can worry about the problems of the future in the future you know.
And machines have been eliminating jobs since the dawn of the industrial revolution. We've just been finding more jobs that need doing to keep up with that. No guarantee that that treadmill will run forever.
Right at this moment there are people that are doing minimum wage jobs that don’t have enough money to survive on. How about we solve the present day problems instead of worrying about the problems of some sci-fi future world?
You contradicted yourself in two sentences. People being unable to survive on what they can earn is a present day problem, not "some sci-fi future world." The problem that UBI is attempting to solve is already here. It's just going to grow worse over time.
The one that offends me is the belief in "infinite upside." Like somehow we'd lose out on some great works of social progress if we made peoole's bank accounts peg once they hit a certain number of zeroes.
ubi isn't the poison pill, yang was that for ubi, and you swallowed it apparently. there has barely been any push for ubi, mostly just academic discussion, and it has had absolutely zero effect on amount of campaigning for min wage increase, so like, wut?
ubi is the way welfare should be because means testing kills and wastes money and everyone deserves that safety net. everyone. nevermind coming mass automation.
imho andrew yang's whole purpose in politics was to be a dumbass awkward out of touch dickhead and spoil everything he promoted, mainly ubi. you fell for it.
Political capital is finite, and the wealthy people understand this. Right now we're arguing over UBI instead of creating a common front to raise minimum wage. Exactly as intended. The person that made the comic promoted something that won't happen instead of something that could happen, exactly as intended.
nevermind coming mass automation.
Yes, nevermind coming mass automation. You're presupposing future problems can't be solved in the future. Future problems stemming from future mass automation (as if that's something that didn't start with the industrial revolution) can be solved in the future. Low minimum wage is a problem we have right now and it's not being solving now because too many people are fantasizing about a future that may not even happen in our lifetimes.
Right now we gotta fix our energy infrastructure to solve global warming (which is a real future problem we need to work on right now) and that's going to take a lot of labour to accomplish. Our survival depends on us having a productive and healthy workforce to solve very real problems.
I like Star Trek too but we aren't going to get to that world if we can't solve present day problems.
I sure hope that this was written by ChatGPT. Because if a living breathing human both believes this and took the time to write it out the system has failed
And so we pat ourselves on the back for not falling for the "capitalist propaganda," not recognizing all the propaganda that we have fallen for. I'd mention some examples but of course that would garner downvotes and disapproval, and thus the cycle continues.
Who cares about downvotes? Give us your best examples - if they are indeed good, you may encourage people to think more about them, which is worth more than any amount of upvotes in the grand sheme of things.
The Azov battalion are Nazis in Ukraine and Russia is actively trying to exterminate them.
The Russian military brought peace to Syria while the US funded Syrian terrorists.
We call Iran terrorists while the US actively terrorized Iran by murdering their generals without provocation.
The US actively pirates Iranian shipments.
The US changes the definition of words to fit their needs. US isn't in a recession because the government changed how we define recessions.
China is actively committing a deathless genocide because like institutionalized racism we are generalizing the concept of cultural genocide to cover all definitions of genocide.
The Chinese economy is bad because they only grew 5%.
The fentanyl issue is blamed on everyone except the US own incompetence. Whether it be Purdue, or Mexico or China but definitely not a US enforcement issue.
And that's just off the top of my head.
*Edit. I see my votes have turned positive now that I've clarified my personal position on the Ukraine conflict. But let me point out that my facts didn't change only that I've pointed out I'm against Russia.
But this is my point. We should stop down voting facts simply because they're uncomfortable. That's how we get presidents like Trump.
except for the first all of these are interesting. As for the first: I am pretty sure there are nazis on both sides, and the Azov-thing is a very very flimsy excuse for the war.
Oh I'm completely against Russia's invasion. I'm just pointing out the propaganda. Russia is absolutely full of Nazis. That doesn't change the fact that western propaganda covers up the Ukraine Nazi problem. Which they literally reported on prior to the war.
*Edit I'll also add I absolutely started with that one because I knew it would be super controversial.
Same, I can admit that "both sides" have some pretty lousy people on them and still think that overall Russia are the "baddies" in this war and should ideally lose it. And that Ukraine may have some lousy people but that overall the trajectory of their society is positive and the good folks seem to be on the rise.
I agree. I just get really angry when people hide uncomfortable facts because they're "our team". Uncritically supporting anyone is what leads to things like the current Gaza genocide. Yes, Jewish people massively suffered historically and in the recent attack, no that does not justify non-discriminatory bombing of civilians.
Okay, here's a whole bunch I can think of off the top of my head.
Opposition to DEI initiatives, feminism, affirmative action, immigration, etc., are rooted in racism/sexism. Even dislike for certain movies is rooted in racism/sexism.
People are being stolen from and/or their privacy is being violated when companies use public data about them to train AI, target ads, etc. People get really mad about this.
On a similar note, AI art "has no soul" and AI artists aren't "real artists."
Hamas and/or Israel are evil. Pick whatever position you want on this conflict, there's a flood of propaganda pushing it and reasoned discussion that goes against it is hard.
Everything Elon Musk does is somehow evil or idiotic.
Cryptocurrency is a scam. AI is a scam. <insert some other new technology> is a scam.
Religion is bad.
All cops are bastards.
Unions are good and corporations are bad. Heck, the "capitalism is bad" message in this comic is itself propaganda.
Cancelling major NASA initiatives like Artemis or Mars Sample Return (or James Webb, Space Shuttle, etc. historically) would be a disaster for space exploration and science, despite their wildly spiralling costs.
Okay, that last one is perhaps getting down into the weeds of one of the more particular communities I find myself in. :)
Of course, there are other communities out there that I'm not commonly in that I expect have the opposite "everyone agrees" views on a lot of these things - DEI is part of some "gay agenda" conspiracy to groom children, Elon Musk is an infallible messiah, cops are the thin blue line protecting us from criminals, unions are destructive to the economy and cause unemployment, and so on and so forth. Propaganda is highly specific to its target audience, as this comic suggests.
The fundamental problem is just that in any significant group or community there are always hot-button issues that "everyone agrees" about, and attempting to question or discuss them with any nuance gets shouted down.
I'd agree with all of these in a heartbeat! Thanks for sharing. I feel like most of these are matching the general vibe I get from lemmy anyways. However, I'm sure there are more than enough things on here and in my bubble "everyone agrees" about that are just wrong, like you said. The Israel/Hamas thing was the latest example where I disagreed with lots of people. Maybe some other comments will show me some of my own wrong opinions.
We are all victims of some sort of propaganda, you can’t deny that, I love lemmy but a lot of people here give ‘I know everything and I am right’ kind of vibe which I don’t like, especially on the subjects mentioned above
How are those conspiracy theories?
They are consensus you disagree with that people are sensitive about? Where is the conspiracy? Just that most people disagree with you?
A lot of these "theories" that you disagree with have no conspiracy in them. Mate you're just angry that most people disagree with you.
I never said they were conspiracy theories. This is about groupthink and propaganda, with "propaganda" in this context being on the looser end of its definition since it's not literally government-organized. It's just a list of things that people in the communities I frequent have a common belief in that can't be easily debated due to the strength of that shared belief.
This isn't about whether I personally agree or disagree with these points. I actually do agree with some of them, I just recognize that it's difficult to discuss them with any nuance. I don't like it when people agree with me for mindless reasons either.
Those ideas you listed are indeed often spread by means of propaganda, but the word propaganda has gained a negative connotation that is itself lacking nuance and is thus undeserved.
Any information disseminated that reflects the views or interests of any particular doctrine or cause - even just your own - is propaganda. If you have publicly expressed any sort of political opinion at all, you have engaged in propaganda.
The word was more useful when widely disseminating information required lots of resources or coordinated effort. Now that anyone can easily do so in a second, the word casts too wide a net to be useful in determining what information is expressed in earnest, and what information is deceptive.
When I see propaganda I first consider where it's coming from. Does it have the backing of mainstream media? Is it publicly/privately funded? Is it facing opposition, and if so from who? Is it grassroots or is it astroturfing?
Edit: Using the comic we're commenting under as an example, it is indeed propaganda. That of course is not a useful categorization, so we'll consider its' source. The creator of this comic Alzward is independent and their funding seems to come both from crowdsourcing and from selling access to their comics on Webtoons. The scale suggests this is just an independent artist supporting themselves, and that their art - and by extension this comic - is not influenced by money to a great extent. From this we can infer that the views expressed in this comic are expressed in earnest by the artist. The artist's views may themselves be influenced, but that's beyond the scope of this discussion. In other words, this is grassroots propaganda.
Propaganda derives from the foreign missions of the catholic church to propagate their faith. This was later generalized to include any messaging with the intention of propagating a belief system, and, after WWI began to also be inflected by a sense that it is deliberately misleading.
I'm not trying to "save" the word propaganda. In highlighting its over-broad definition in combination with its negative connotation, I am actually advocating against its use.
"saving"
Also, don't use quotes around something the person you're responding to didn't say. You are now the second person I've responded to in this thread to have done so.
I think there's an important distinction to make here between how people come to believe something, and whether or not they're true. Propaganda can cause people to believe things that are true for incorrect/wrong reasons.
Are all of these believed by people for bad reasons due to propaganda? Sure. Are all of them false? I don't think so. Most of them have some truth in them, but oversimplify or overgeneralize from those facts, and nuance is important in understanding them.
Yup. At least one of those bullet points is something I actually believe myself, I just recognize that a lot of people who believe it haven't really thought about it.
Western media is mostly propaganda. Facts are just something they use in order to lie. What really amazes me is how people recognize that local media is often lying about internal affairs, but blindly belive anything the same people say when its about other countries
Western media normally doesn't lie directly but lies by omission. They will only show one side as a victim and never show that side committing any crimes nor tell the full story.
Israel is the prime example that commits Genocide for 20 years but only gets attention and portrayed as the victim when Hamas retaliates. Seemingly "out of nowhere".
Though in the last few months we went from lying by omission to full on CCP style propaganda with no Genocide in Ba Sing Se.
Difference is you get down votes for speech and not a prison sentence or sent to the front lines of a war meat grinder. Just for some perspective that you apparently need.
Where did I say otherwise? I'm only addressing the prevalence of propaganda and our susceptibility to it, not Russia's war measures or oppressive lack of free speech.
![[Alzwards Corner] Never could happen here](https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/f554a50e-b397-4ea1-9cab-40fd25d3dcb5.png){kind=link}
