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commie

@commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com

i am more than willing to engage on any positive claim you want to make (i probably agree with a lot of them). what i’m not willing to do is tolerate personal attacks and dogpiling.

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commie ,

thank you

commie ,

the power vacuum

power vacuums are fictions created by intelligence agencies to justify propping up regimes. they are not inevitable natural phenomena

commie ,

they admin the instance with (last i checked) the largest lemmy community (c/piracy). does your mommy know you can't read?

commie ,

if you grant plants sentience, veganism is still the more ethical option.

... for ethical systems in which sentience is a consideration.

commie ,

you should still act to minimize suffering as much as possible.

under what ethical system?

commie ,

what do you mean by "alive", and why should that matter?

commie ,

I can only think of one that does: utilitarianism. it's frought with epistemic problems not to mention it can be summed up "the ends justify the means" which most people think is itself unethical.

commie ,

If you’re eating meat, then you’re contributing to the death of all of those plants that had to feed the animals you’re eating

impossible. an event in the future cannot cause an event in the past.

commie ,

surely you can see that there are going to need be more evidence. some kind of communication prior to the fact is probably going to need to be established.

commie ,

this is a straw man. perhaps you could try dealing with the facts and what I said.

commie ,

“plants dont feel pain”.

you can't prove that.

commie ,

your link implies that male calves all become veal, but the vast majority of male calves are brought to full weight before slaughter.

commie ,

supply and demand.

that's a theory about price discovery that actually has no predictive value. it is not a magic phrase that traverses space-time

commie , (edited )

You shouldn’t need your hand held for this, it’s pretty basic stuff.

this is just posturing. it doesn't support your (erroneous) claim, nor does it undermine my (obviously correct) position.

commie ,

the company has to produce now to replace the one you bought.

no, they don't. they could choose not to do that. I am not responsible for their choices.

commie ,

Your action led to a dead cow in the future.

Does that work?

no, that's not causal. but even if it were, it doesn't make me responsible for the killing of the plants or animals in the past.

commie ,

i'm pointing out that you're spreading misinformation.

commie ,

i object to your characterization, and it does nothing to either bolster your own claim nor undercut my own. it's a simple ad hominem.

commie ,

you just want to debate.

frankly, i don't. i'm happy correcting the record.

commie ,

youre probably really young

another attack on identity. try to stay with the topic at hand. who i am has no bearing on the truth of my statements or yours.

commie ,

it. Find something you actually care about then argue about that.

truth. i care about what is true.

commie ,

i don't tell you what to value. please extend the same courtesy.

commie ,

if you don't care about whether what i said is true, and alli did was state a fact, then why are you responding at all? it seems to me you very much want to discourage me from keeping the discussion truthful, and i speculate it is because the facts damage your own position.

commie ,

Another debate term.

didn't this start because you were linking fallacies??

commie ,

this reads like an appeal to ridicule. it is not a rebuttal.

commie ,

I'm not responsible for the decisions of other people.

commie ,

a rapist who repeatedly helps fascists

you might even be elected vice president, and one day, president, too!

commie ,

i'm talking about biden.

commie ,

no both sides: i'm talking about biden sexually assaulting tara reid, supporting israel and other fascist regimes, then becoming vice president and now president.

commie ,

true propaganda is still propaganda and serves a political agenda.

oh that we could convince liberals this is true.

commie ,

the movement is growing

google trends says otherwise

commie ,

99% of male calves are killed immediately after being born

that's not true.

commie ,

You cannot slaughter a healthy animal in a humane way. “Slaughter” excludes “humane”.

this is just a semantic game. there are human slaughter laws in most of the developed world. maybe all of it. and some in the developing world, too.

commie ,

Every time we eat meat we caused absolutely unnecessary suffering for a quick moment of pleasure.

you might mean "all of humanity" or "all meat eaters" caused suffering, but, in fact only the individuals who cause suffering have done so, and eating meat does not, in and of itself, cause any suffering at all. if there is any suffering involved, it happens before the meat-eating, and thus cannot be caused by the meat-eating, since an event in the future cannot cause an event in the past.

commie ,

Data for the production of alfalfa( Reference Mathews, Canevari and Frate 51 , Reference Vargas, Mueller and Frate 52 ) and maize( Reference Vargas, Frate and Mathews 53 , Reference Brittan, Muiner and Klonsky 54 ) used for animal feed were obtained from CRS and were added to the direct water used by the animals using a net feed consumption rate of 5·62 kg maize/kg beef and 2·66 kg alfalfa/kg beef. A feed conversion efficiency of 7·0 was assumed( Reference Horrigan, Lawrence and Walker 10 ). Soya in the feed formulations for beef and poultry was excluded.

since most beef cattle graze for the first year, where they put on the majority of their weight, then why would you attribute all the meat production to feedlots? shouldn't it be halved at least?

commie ,

You are ending the life of a sentient being that feels pain and has feelings/emotions, that has family of one kind or another, for no benefit other than your own pleasure.

there are reasons to eat meat besides"pleasure". like nutrients or convenience or cost, and it's unlikely that most meat eaters are killing anything.

commie ,

no, it's not. bullets fired from guns kill people, but there is no similar causal system at play that can traverse time and kill animals in the past

commie ,

i never suggested you couldn't get nutrients other places. but meat is one option for nutrients.

commie ,

Not sure how cooking pea protein sausage is less convenient than cooking a pork sausage.

if you're cooking it's probably roughly the same. but if you're out and about, whether at a drive through or a neighborhood cookout, the meat might just be more convenient.

commie ,

b) most people aren’t in a position where you have such financial pressure (food stamps etc) where you have to weigh calories per cent

i am barely middle class, but i still shop on calories per penny.

commie ,

you can’t deny that a demand for meat influences the scale of meat production. Everyone in the production and consumption chain has blood on their hands.

"influences" is so weak that i am going to say that you meant "causes". is this a strawman? maybe. but if you're argument relies on the ambiguity of "influence" as opposed to the much stronger "cause" then you're not really saying anything of substance anyway.

so does the decision to eat meat cause meat production in the future? no. a thousand times no. first, and this should be all that needs to be said, farmers and abottoir workers are agents with free will, so their decisions cannot in any meaningful sense be said to be caused by anything except their own will. that should be the beginning and end of it, but consider this additional hypothetical:

if there are three blue pigs in the world, and i kill all three and send them to the butcher shop, when someone buys that pork or bacon or ham, how do we kill more blue pigs? it's impossible. so we can see that even if people lack free will and there is some economic theory that actually showed some causal link where consumption causes production (which is impossible), then we can see that consumption still can't actually cause later production in even this one case, but probably many others.

commie ,

this sounds like a good experiment. please let me know the results!

commie ,

so to be clear, sometimes meat is a better choice based on convenience.

commie ,

it's not an analogy. it's a hypothetical. and in my hypothetical you can see that your proposed causation falls apart. even in your amended version, when do i lose free will?

commie ,

At this point I really am unsure whether you are just trolling since this is not rocket science.

this is an appeal to ridicule. youre right that it's not rocket science though: that is provable.

commie ,

at no point have i proposed that the production is desirable, only the consumption.

commie ,

so long as i can still choose my own actions, i can't say that other people's reactions caused me to act in any way.

commie ,

I don't feel that I ever ask you to respond at all. I feel I've been right this whole time and you just don't understand the topic well enough to discuss it. enjoy your vacation.

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