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Slayan ,

Chauvinism ≠ nationalism

Ireland and quebec are nationalist, they want to become independent from englad. Its about sovereignty.

Chauvinism is fanatical adoration of a person, a group or a belief like the maga side of the republican.

MBM ,

How many languages outside of English even have a word for patriotism?

letsgo ,

https://www.indifferentlanguages.com/words/patriotism

lath ,

What a dumbass take.

The difference is much simpler. Patriotism for internal conflicts, nationalism for external conflicts. Both for manufactured Boogeymen fueled by malicious propaganda.

damnedfurry ,

imo, actual patriotism would be more like "I want to make my house as good as I can."

You don't have to think your country is the best to be patriotic with respect to that country.

lath ,

Nah, it's very subjective. Idealistically patriotism is more like "I want to make the common house everyone on the street lives in more pleasant to live in for everyone."

Realistically it's more like "I want to make my house how I think it should be better. Why doesn't everyone else do the same?"

Each individual has their own idea about what's the patriotic thing to do, even if that ends up to be the wrong thing in someone else's view. That's why I say it's about internal conflicts. Your patriotism and your neighbor's can come at odds with each other in various points. Neither of you might be wrong, but you'll still have to pick something that goes against those beliefs eventually.
Better for you, worse for someone else, but pat oneself on the back with the excuse "the good of the many".

xenoclast ,

Talk about dumbass takes..

lath ,

I did talk. You didn't. This comment of yours.... Zero substance. Not even dumb, just empty.

Allero ,

Patriotism also sucks, because it implements a bias that can then be exploited, and brings very little to the table.

State-level patriotism also makes you complicit in the division of people by countries and nations, as opposed to classes and other valid groups of people.

And there is no valid reason to have some special relation to your country. It is natural to feel ties with the place you were born or the place you spent a lot of time in, this is human psychology, but your country is nothing but a piece of land that was marked by somebody as belonging to some virtual entity.

We should ditch state-level patriotism as a concept and treat local-level patriotism as a natural bias. We should strive to help people of all places and origins, and come together as one.

explodicle ,

Instead of local-level should it not be headed towards planet-level?

Allero ,

At the very least, yes.

NikkiDimes , (edited )

Don't worry, if we ever become an interplanetary species, we'll do the exact same fucking thing

Allero ,

Which will be the time to ditch planetary-level patriotism as well.

For now, it's good enough.

ameancow , (edited )

Our obsession with owning land and borders will be the death of us all.

Like, without hyperbole, if we all die, it will be because of our attachment to the concept of "owning land" and having to draw imaginary lines across ground and rock and water to signify who owns what.

But when you step back and really think about it, it makes zero sense if you actually care about an equitable world where people aren't hurting each other. It makes zero sense from a cosmic perspective, as this is a rock flying around a star, it has been here longer than us and will outlast us to a degree that our presence here, no matter what we do, will be a brief blip in cosmic time. We have no legacy, no real connection to the dirt below us other than how it gave us life. And yet claim ownership over it?

It makes no sense from a material perspective either, all borders do is reduce the flow of goods and services, creates artificial limits on who can go where creating "pressure zones" that eventually explode over and become migration disasters, and of course the people who pretend to rule these patches of dirt and rock and water and will send millions of people to death to preserve this roleplay. And we all cheer and defend this concept with all our heart.

Make it make sense.

Allero , (edited )

Moreover, the entire concept of ownership is really just "you'll face violence from other people if you try to take that away, one way or another". That's it.

Universe doesn't care who owns what, those are just objects in space.

Sometimes this concept is helpful; you probably want the police to step in if someone breaks into your house (universe couldn't care less). Sometimes it's extremely dangerous, like when country leaders threaten others with nuclear war.

In either case, we should seriously revamp our relationships with land and property - that is for certain. Current ways are not sustainable and may lead to a disaster.

douglasg14b ,
@douglasg14b@lemmy.world avatar

Ah, a classic false dichotomy.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

You see my kind of loyalty was loyalty to one’s country, not to its institutions or its office-holders. The country is the real thing, the substantial thing, the eternal thing; it is the thing to watch over, and care for, and be loyal to; institutions are extraneous, they are its mere clothing, and clothing can wear out, become ragged, cease to be comfortable, cease to protect the body from winter, disease, and death. To be loyal to rags, to shout for rags, to worship rags, to die for rags—that is a loyalty of unreason, it is pure animal; it belongs to monarchy, was invented by monarchy; let monarchy keep it. I was from Connecticut, whose Constitution declares “that all political power is inherent in the people, and all free governments are founded on their authority and instituted for their benefit; and that they have at all times an undeniable and indefeasible right to alter their form of government in such a manner as they may think expedient.”

Under that gospel, the citizen who thinks he sees that the commonwealth’s political clothes are worn out, and yet holds his peace and does not agitate for a new suit, is disloyal; he is a traitor. That he may be the only one who thinks he sees this decay, does not excuse him; it is his duty to agitate anyway, and it is the duty of the others to vote him down if they do not see the matter as he does.

  • Mark Twain, "A Connecticut Yankee In King Arthur's Court"
UnrepententProcrastinator ,

Conservative's patriotism is mostly virtue signaling in my experience.

halvar ,

I would say patriotism is when you love the ideas a nation is built on and stands for, while nationalism is when you love the people and history of a nation.

As a european it's very hard to love the former, since we've been here for more than a thousand years meaning whatever ideas our forefathers might have had in mind are rightfully gone now. However over this time we developed our own culture and became a nation of people which we can love instead.

Nationalism doesn't have to be toxic as it's often depicted, if someone belives their nation is "better" that's called chauvinism. Nationalism is just when you feel your nation is special for you at least and that makes you want to better it.

blackris ,
@blackris@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

I don't think that your differentiazion between patriotism and nationalism is correct. Nationalism always began with the invention of nations through national movements. The nation building in europe began in the 18th century, not a thousand years ago. Nationalism always refers to the invented history of a nation ("a thousand years ago"), while patriotism can refer to the political system or the constitutional documents.

I think both are awful because there is a really fine line to chauvinism. The positive view of oneselfes too often comes with the devaluation of others.

ASeriesOfPoorChoices ,

if you want to make up new definitions for your own language that is similar to, but not quite like English, that's up to you.

unexposedhazard , (edited )

Patriotism and Nationalism are basically the same thing. The distinction is nonsensical, especially in this context.

ASeriesOfPoorChoices ,

good ol' Lemmy's lack of nuance.

YeetPics ,
@YeetPics@mander.xyz avatar

Also, if you vote, you are ethnically tied to, and guilty of, every decision and moral misstep of that politician until the end of time.

Semjaza ,

You'll have to explain, since in the comic the main premise of both Nationalism and Patriotism is that "this house is mine ergo it is the best".

(Also historically the distinction would be that Nationalism is about establishing an ethno-state, while Patriotism is the basically-unconditional loving of your state, be it ethno or otherwise.)

Bilbo_Haggins ,

I take issue with the first panel.

To me, patriotism is "I'm going to work on my house because I love the people who live in it and I want them all to have the best house."

If you start from the assumption that your country is the "best" that's nationalism and straying too close to the roots of xenophobia.

Wanderer ,

It could be the best for you.

You seem to be implying all people and countries are on a scale moving closer to some single ideal.

But it's perfectly valid to think your house is the best and want it to be different to someone else's house, who also thinks their house is the best.

Bilbo_Haggins ,

You seem to be implying all people and countries are on a scale moving closer to some single ideal.

I mean that's definitely how some people interpret it but at least for me, patriotism encompasses the idea that my country should be best for me and the people in it but that other people in other countries get to think the same thing about their country and work towards their own version of "best."

But I'm not gonna argue that everyone does patriotism this way because that's clearly not the case 🙃 plenty of "patriots" out there willing to wreck their own country in a war over bringing their own ideals to a different place.

Aceticon , (edited )

Yeah, it's maybe the greatest difference between Patriotism and Nationalism: the former is all about "I'll work to make my house the best house" whilst the latter is about "Yield to me, as I am from the best house".

Patriots want their country to be the best country, Nationalist want to extract gains from living in what they think is the best country.

You'll notice that the only things Nationalists ever do for their country are things like "stopping others from coming here" or "celebrating the greatness of their country", which aren't at all about making the country better.

WhiskyTangoFoxtrot ,

Words are defined by how they're used.

palordrolap ,

I am the queen of France (drums start) (wavy arm dance begin)

DarkCloud ,

The liberal fear of these concepts and fear of showing these beliefs is part of why establishment liberals have become such bad orators and such weak and unconvincing political parties.

These concepts have to be harnessed, that's just the nature of drawing in the middle of politics.

Politics is a luxury to focus on, there are huge swaths of work a day people who don't and can't focus on it. They need certain messages as short hand for doing the "right thing" - that's just how politics is, not everyone can afford to live with the burden of political awareness, it's not necessary healthy.

You have to give the devil it's dues, and do so willingly and happily. That's just how political campaigns are under this system.

ASeriesOfPoorChoices ,

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/83aaf78e-b209-465b-907f-4b581b9b9fcc.jpeg

Shardikprime ,

Ironic if P had a bit more of N he wouldn't be absorbed that easy

Ptsf ,

Can we not do politics? I generally like the comics sub, but my exposure to politics on lemmy, social media, wherever is at such all time peak nonsensical levels that I just block all politic related subs, and would like this not to be one of them.

kersploosh OP ,
@kersploosh@sh.itjust.works avatar

That's a fair point. I can try to avoid politics in this community in the future.

As for this post, I'll defer to the community mod to either leave it up or take it down. No hard feelings from me either way.

explodicle ,

Anybody know if there's a political cartoons community? Then I can subscribe to both.

Semi_Hemi_Demigod ,
@Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world avatar

But you know as well as I, patriotism is a word; and one that generally comes to mean either my country, right or wrong, which is infamous, or my country is always right, which is imbecile. - Patrick O'Brien

ShinkanTrain ,

Also patriotism: This house sucks, and it's because of these fucking immigrants

ASeriesOfPoorChoices ,

Are you voting Republican or Libertarian?

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