I am anti oppressors and warcryers, sympathic to defenders, protectors and the dead. sometimes who the oppressor charges. I know asking doesn’t help but like please everyone stop killing eachother..
Not at all. That was still the wrong moment to do it. NOW (and for the past few months, since Israel began its full-blown open genocide) is the right time.
Has your opinion of Isreal changed because of the last few months? If so has that changed how you view their actions in the past against the Palestinian people?
If the comparison of Russia in Ukraine to Isreal in Palestine was only made legitimate in the past few months, then how do you view the Nakba?
Has your opinion of Isreal changed because of the last few months?
It changed insofar as going from "they're a pretty horrible fascist society" to "they're straight up Nazis".
If so has that changed how you view their actions in the past against the Palestinian people?
Not really.
If the comparison of Russia in Ukraine to Isreal in Palestine was only made legitimate in the past few months [...]
You're commiting a fallacy, I believe and hope unintentionally. Israel has always been the aggressor, I've never contradicted that. However, defending a population associated with a vile terrorist group at a time said group has just attacked is simply bad politics - you'll not get many allies and now your detractors have a concrete event to point towards when dismissing your position. At present, Israel has effectively admitted to wanting a genocide and Hamas has waved the white flag multiple times, so it's the perfect moment, politically, to defend the Palestine.
Why? Because the west supports the occupied in one and the occupier in the other? Don't forget the west expected Ukraine to be an occupied state with a gorilla insurgency within a few weeks at the start of the conflict.
Edit: because I am getting the expected hate.
The Palestinians didn't start out as Hamas. The extremism of Hamas was born out of the lack of action from former moderates. People will always become more extreme when they are met with a lack of action. That goes for the left and the right.
So ask yourself if someone came to your house and told you to leave how angry would you be? If you don't understand this look up the actions of the Israeli settlements.
I don't support the violence at all, but this isn't a (direct) result of imperialism.
After WW2, the Allies were like, "what do we do with all these Jews? We don't want them in our countries." Then they thought, "why not Jerusalem?" But a bunch of Arabs were living there, but the Allies really didn't want more Jews, so they just dumped them all in modern Israel, told the Arabs this is Jews' land now, and recognized Israel as a state. Palestine has a right to be pissed. So this isn't so much an imperialism problem as much as a racism problem.
But still, Hamas are evil fuckers that take shit too far. Israel definitely is not the good guy and is not helping the situation at all, but this kind of escalation just makes shit worse for everyone.
Idk if this is a hot take, but imo the war in Ukraine is pretty clear city while the Palestinian and Israeli conflict his an infinite list of wrinkles and nuances.
It's far less controversial to say the former is Russia's fault than it is to say the latter is either Palestine's or Israel's fault.
Palestinian conflict is very simple: an army vs civilians. Only gonna end when all the latter are dead.
Should we ever try to sanction that army? Never! Should we try sanctioning US for killing million iraqis who had not a WMD? No! Should we sanction Nato for bombing the wealthiest african estate libya to it's ruin? Ah wait, WE are Nato. Can't shoot own ankle.
Yeah mostly because isreal/ Palestine conflict is much older then russia/Ukraine so a lot of things happened. But at it's very core they both started because of the same claim : russia claimed used to own Ukraine so they want it back. The jews used to own Palestine so they want it back. So if you support Ukraine and isreal you're just a hypocrite
I haven't seen anyone here "support Israel". Almost everyone agrees that the Israeli State is not free of guilt, far from it.
What people really disagree over is whether that alone makes Palestine right (nuanced) and whether it justifies Hamas' actions (unhinged but unfortunately semi-common take on here).
What nuance is there be had about this? Israel is a settler-colonial apartheid state that deserves what should've happened to America when those settlers were doing it. That's like saying "the civil rights conflict has an infinite list of wrinkles and nuances"; in that it's objectively wrong.
They're not identical, but they have similarities. What Russia is trying to do to Ukraine is not dissimilar to what Israel did to Palestine half a century ago.
How does a long time NATO ally not impact the west exactly? The Israel/Palestine confict has been in the news since I have paid attention to international politics.
That was the point. When it impacts the West directly, the we in the West decide to make things about right and wrong and morals and cook up excuses to throw more and more money because it serves our interests. When it’s Palestine… we decide to throw all of that out of the window and decide fund Israel (the aggressor) instead.
The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is much more nuanced. Both countries' current heads of state are kinda like "all this land is my country's, the other country should not exist." It's unclear who is right.
The Russo-Ukranian conflict is clear. One leader is claiming the land of the other, the other just want it back. Ukraine's government is not claiming half of Russia.
At the end of the day who is Isreal and who Palestine. If no one who was alive when Palestine was around can anyone rightfully claim it the land belongs to "Palestine". It's like the ship Theseus or something. Maybe I'm just dumb as fuck.
Just make the fuck up and work together instead of being greedy bigots.
can anyone rightfully claim it the land belongs to "Palestine"
You should tell that to Israel, which is expelling Palestinians from this land every week for decades. It is not the Palestinians who are claiming the land exclusively to themselves and expelling others from it. It is Israel doing that. I find it crazy that you somehow argue this as if Palestine is doing that.
Palestinians lost the wars. Multiple wars. At this point there really isn't a point in contesting against Israel when they can integrate with Israel peacefully instead.
Israel is not offering "peaceful integration". Have a look at Palestinians who already live outside of Gaza, in the rest of occupied Palestine. The only choices are leave, suffer or resist.
Your sentence doesn't make sense. Moreover, the Palestinian stance of most groups has been integration and living together peacefully and happily. "Resisting" their expulsion and the murder against them does not contradict that.
Palestine has attacked territory that was assigned to Palestine by the UN in 1947. The UN also makes it very clear that a country may lawfully recover occupied territory "by any means, including armed force". UN laws are thus very clear: Ukraine and Palestine can recover territories by force. Now, that doesn't mean you should support them in their struggle to do so, but if you don't, it must be for some other reason (e.g., Israel taking over would constitute a huge strategic gain for the US, while Russia taking over would destabilize the world and thus benefit small or weakly aligned players).
I get that there is lot more nuances than russo-ukrainian, but imo there is a lot more similarities than you seem to imply : both Russia and Israel claimed that the land belonged to them before, that they should get it back, and use violence to kill local people who tried to resist or move them. The only difference is that Israel did it with the help of western countries and partially according to their laws, so they get like an aura of legitimity, but the acts remains quite close.
I do not like when people basically do not accept violent behavior but accepts them when they are allowed by some law or authority.
(Also yes Hamas is doing bad things and should be held accountable in some way, just like Ukraine to my eyes. But still, for me it remains obvious who kills more, who steals more, who oppresses more)
As a Ukrainian, let's sort out what we're accountable for once we're not getting genocided. We also have a lot of questions to our own government, but I would still prefer it to the Russian
all this land is my country's, the other country should not exist.
One of those countries is an ethno-religious state that is exclusive of the other. Can you guess which one?
If you are an ethno-religious exclusivist who says "your country shouldn't exist only mine!" and I am a country that multi-religious, and say "actually my country should be the prevailing one, not your exclusivist one", you gotta realize those two are massively different, unlike you portray.
The Russo-Ukranian conflict is clear. One leader is claiming the land of the other
Russia's original pretext for the war is not about territorial gains. It was supposedly regarding Ukraine's attack on Donetsk, Luhansk, and ethnic Russian populations in general (such as the Odessa massacre), what they also called "de-nazification" of the Ukrainian government, and Ukraine's bid to join NATO. This is easily verifiable, but I can provide you a sources on this if you doubt me.
I am not claiming what Russia is saying is true, but it is not what you make it seem to make your argument.
Russias pretext for the war is complete horseshit. They have been supporting the rebels in these breakaway republics that magically appeared just after Russia annexed Crimea in 2014. Their support went beyond the usual proxy war/hybrid warfare bs, as hundreds of russian armed service men were confirmed KIA in Donezk and Luhansk.
Also there's not a shred of evidence for the secret nazi government of Ukraine (led by a Jewish president) and Ukraines bid to join nato was 1. Years of not decades from its realization and 2. None of Russias business.
Why are you arguing with me about Russias pretext, as if I'm telling you I support them? I specifically said I don't. Stop deflecting please, and argue my actual point.
OK then please clarify what exactly you mean here:
One of those countries is an ethno-religious state that is exclusive of the other. Can you guess which one?
You can only be talking about Palestine here, right? There is limited Muslim representation in Israel and no jewish representation in Palestine.
If you are an ethno-religious exclusivist who says "your country shouldn't exist only mine!" and I am a country that multi-religious, and say "actually my country should be the prevailing one, not your exclusivist one", you gotta realize those two are massively different, unlike you portray.
Israel has continuously expanded its settlements on the west bank in the Gaza strip. They did so, citing security concerns, in reality there are probably more religious reasons for doing that. The goal with these settlements is to chip away on territories that belong to Palestine.
Meanwhile I have no doubts that if Palestine had a button that would make all jews evaporate, they'd not hesitate to push it in an instant. Hamas is massively antisemitic and even the more moderate part of Palestine seems to condone the military push.
This situation is massively more complex than the Russo Ukraine war and there is no obvious good guy you can point to. This seems to bother people and will make the political parts of lemmy pretty insufferable for the next couple of weeks.
You can only be talking about Palestine here, right? There is limited Muslim representation in Israel and no jewish representation in Palestine
Israel is a Jewish theocracy by its own admission. Palestine has Muslims and Christians. Palestine was never ruled by a theocracy. The most popular groups have always been secular (example: PFLP). Even the Palestinian Authority is secular.
Whatever "muslim" representation there is in Israel, it is as good as none and does not change that it is an exclusive theocracy. Literally there is no equivalent to their religious exclusivism in any Muslim-majority nation. It is only matched by militant groups like ISIS.
Meanwhile I have no doubts that if Palestine had a button that would make all jews evaporate, they'd not hesitate to push it in an instant.
Source? This is an extremely bad faith argument. "A is genocidal. B has never done so. But I'm sure B would if they could, so that means A is justified!". Please read that again and tell me you don't see how ridiculous it sounds.
And you don't have to hypothesize. Before Israel was created, and during the increase of Jewish migrations in the 19th century and early 20th, Arabs never enacted any genocide against the Jews or did what Israel does today. In fact, European Jews found it to be a safe haven in comparison to Europe.
Hamas is massively antisemitic
Hamas only garners support because it is the only group left putting up a fight. It was never popular before that. But because of that, it has many non-Hamas-ians joining its ranks, and many of them reiterate their support for living peacefully among Jews.
And its important to point out that Hamas only climbed up to this position because of Israeli support more than a decade ago. This is Israel's own admission. They did not want progressive groups leading the resistance, and propped up Hamas instead. I'd be happy to cite you Israeli officials saying this.
even the more moderate part of Palestine seems to condone the military push
That doesn't mean they're anti Semitic. The operation primarily targeted military installations, soldiers and officials. It is resistance against the Israeli state. So supporting this operation is being opposed to the Israeli state, not because they wish to evaporate all Jews. That's ridiculous.
This situation is massively more complex than the Russo Ukraine war and there is no obvious good guy you can point to.
It is quite the opposite. Russia-Ukraine involves two States with crimes on their records, and I only side with Ukraine because Russia is the aggressor. But Ukraine is far from being a good guy. Israel-Palestine is an apartheid state against stateless people getting murdered and expelled from their lands, and their best fight is minor incursions on the border. It is very much a one-sided fight.
Israel is a Jewish theocracy by its own admission. Palestine has Muslims and Christians. Palestine was never ruled by a theocracy. The most popular groups have always been secular (example: PFLP). Even the Palestinian Authority is secular.
Gaza Strip
Sunni Muslim 98–99%, Arab Christians 0.2% (2,000 to 3,000 est.), other, unaffiliated, unspecified <1.0% (2012 est.).
At least bother looking some of this stuff up...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_Front_for_the_Liberation_of_Palestine
The PFLP has generally taken a hard line on Palestinian national aspirations, opposing the more moderate stance of Fatah. It does not recognise the State of Israel, it opposes negotiations with the Israeli government, and favours a one-state solution to the Israeli–Palestinian conflict. [...]
The PFLP has been designated a terrorist organisation by the United States,[10] Japan,[11] Canada,[12] Australia[13] and the European Union.[14]
These guys seem like complete nutcases, secular or not. Also they are by no means politically popular, as opposed to Hamas and Fatah.
Source? This is an extremely bad faith argument. “A is genocidal. B has never done so. But I’m sure B would if they could, so that means A is justified!”. Please read that again and tell me you don’t see how ridiculous it sounds.
It's not bad faith at all, they literally have eradicating Israel as their mission goal. And that's not the first time an arab nation tries something like that, Iraq wanted to kill everyone in Israel with nerve gas in the 90s, that's why the first golf war happened. Also, Israels genocide is a cultural genocide (which is pretty bad) and I wish they didn't do what they are doing. Yet I dare you to look up any imagery from the last 72 hours and tell me that you prefer the approach that Palestine is taking in Gaza.
I'm not going to bother to continue, go outside and leave lemmygrad for a while comrade. Good night.
I'm not sure which part of those statistics you think contradicts what I said. Can you please quote which part of what I said contradicts it? Your statistics confirm what I said. Go back and read what I said.
These guys seem like complete nutcases, secular or not.
Is this an argument? I am going to ignore it because I find no substance here, but if there's something I'm missing, let me know.
Also they are by no means politically popular, as opposed to Hamas and Fatah.
They were very popular before Hamas became the only group left fighting. Check out the PLO, of which they were a part of. Many of the prominent Palestinian figures were part of PFLP as well.
It's not bad faith at all, they literally have eradicating Israel as their mission goal.
I literally just explained to you why it's not. Feel free to argue my points directly, rather than restate the same statement I already disproved.
Iraq wanted to kill everyone in Israel with nerve gas in the 90s, that's why the first golf war happened
And the second gulf war happened because of their WMDs. We all know how the state department narrative was correct without any issues at all, right? Right?
Yet I dare you to look up any imagery from the last 72 hours and tell me that you prefer the approach that Palestine is taking in Gaza.
Do you want to see the Palestinian child that was burned alive by Israeli fire? I can provide you a link.
I'm not going to bother to continue
That's good. I prefer if you don't. It's not a good look. Please don't spread misinformation elsewhere either.
Misinformation my ass. Your first statement of "there's totally Christians in Palestine" disqualifies you as a reliable source of information to any sane person. You can't live in a world where that statement is factual and my statement that there's political representation of Muslims in the Israel is wrong. Also nice whataboutism, bringing up the 2nd Gulf War without addressing the very real issue in the first one. Look at pretty much any of the wars fought around Isreal and tell me there's not at least half a dozen countries around it who'd nuke them out of existence if they could.
I chose not to continue arguing your other points because I can see that you have a mild case of severe, self inflicted brain damage. The lefty racism of believing that only western people have agency and everyone else is just noble savages isn't something I can take away.
I can't fix that. Go take a shower, it won't hurt. Get some nice sleep. Talk to that girl. Unplug from the stream of misinformation, that is specifically crafted by ultra right Russian propaganda. It's all going to be OK.
Your first statement of "there's totally Christians in Palestine"
Yes it's true. Your own links prove I am right LOL. Not only that, many figures in Palestinian resistance are Christian. Examples: George Habash, founder of the PFLP. Shireen Abu Akleh, she was a journalist that Israelis murdered last year in cold blood.
There's an entire Wikipedia article about Palestinian Christians. You might learn something (I doubt it, you don't seem to be the kind):
nice whataboutism, bringing up the 2nd Gulf War without addressing the very real issue in the first one
I didn't imagine you would have so much trouble understanding that the west has a record of justifying war with bullshit claims. The first gulf war was due to, supposedly, Saddam's involvement in Kuwait and doing horrendous things. It was later proven that the woman who testified in front of the UN to justify this war was lying. More here:
"I only cherry pick the arguments I may have a chance not looking stupid responding to". I am sorry to break it to you, you look just as stupid in all the arguments, and your cherry picking is not a good look.
You said you would stop replying yet here you are. I urge you to stop wasting my time and spreading misinformation.
Last thing I'll add: you've started to engage in adhom attacks. I'm going to let it pass since I personally don't care, and imo you only embarrass yourself doing them. But if I see you doing that with anyone else in this community, I'll have to ban you. So please keep your insulting in check.
Russia’s original pretext for the war is not about territorial gains. It was supposedly regarding Ukraine’s attack on Donetsk, Luhansk, and ethnic Russian populations in general (such as the Odessa massacre), what they also called “de-nazification” of the Ukrainian government, and Ukraine’s bid to join NATO. This is easily verifiable, but I can provide you a sources on this if you doubt me.
Is that the line this week? They've been moving the goalposts so rapidly they must be on wheels (and better maintained wheels than the Russian army)
The Russian propagandista changed their lines so many times it's blindingly obvious that there's no greater good and it was supposed to be a land-grab just like when they invaded and annexed Crimea
Reaffirms the legitimacy of the struggle of peoples for their independence, territorial integrity, national unity and liberation from colonial domination, apartheid and foreign occupation by all available means, including armed struggle;
