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Ulvain ,

I wonder..

By his own legal admission, he's not a journalist but an entertainer.

Thus what he's doing with Putin is entertainment.

So he's dealing with Russia (literally) and Russian companies to produce a profit making entertainment content.

Russia is under sanctions.

Isn't he breaking the law?

kava ,

Is that the kind of society we want to be? Where a private individual or organization cannot go to another country to interview a world leader?

What happened to freedom of expression and freedom of movement? Are we going to go back to the Iron Curtain? Are we going to totally disconnect so that the only news we ever see is from "approved sources"?

This is a dangerous path to go down.

Tucker Carlson is a con-man, but if our citizens want to watch him - don't they have the right?

davepleasebehave ,

He should.not be platformed. either of them

kava ,

Elaborate on your position. You say he should not be platformed. I think people shouldn't use hard drugs. However, I also don't think we should criminalize drug possession or use.

tuttobenethx ,

Not the previous user.
Perfectly OK for Tucker to visit Putin and to interview him. Not ok for a media outlet to publish the interview.
If you want a comparison, fine by me if you ruin your life with Fentanyl. Not ok if you're selling it.

Daft_ish ,

Ok, maybe drug use was a bad analogy. What I meant to say was abortion....

Chip_Rat ,

That was comedy gold and everybody missed it.

abcxyz ,

People are reactionary creatures. Feel bad for OC

WarlordSdocy ,

I don't like Tucker Carlson or Putin but the idea that Tucker Carlson would be platforming Putin is stupid. He's the leader of Russia, he is his own platform. He can make a video and every news agency will show it and report on it. He doesn't need a platform, he just inherently has one

Snapz ,

There is a line. Putin may be the closest thing we've had to actual Hitler in the modern era, in his actions and his aspirations, but maybe the difference is that he doesn't have IBM making him efficient and his "opponent" has the early support of a superpower in the US.

Your sentiments are generally true, but there's a limit, and especially during an open conflict like this. He's a dictator that has his friends pushed out of Windows when they no longer serve his need. He's also been caught leading coordinated efforts to taint the results of American elections. You don't platform this, as an American.

Freedom has limits among adults. You're not allowed to own a tank and drive it to the grocery store, you can't manufacture and sell heroin as a private citizen. There are some limits we agree to.

Squizzy ,

Journalists can do it and private citizens can, he shouldn't be allowed he's an entertainer with a very vocal fringe movement behind him supporting a sanctioned war criminal.

JasSmith ,

The fact you have 30 downvotes is horrifying. This community is nothing but a bunch of authoritarians who openly reject liberal ideals like free speech and democracy. They hate Putin so much because he reflects so many of their values.

GeneralVincent ,

This is the strawmaniest strawman I've seen strawman. We don't like this because it's Tucker Carlson, notorious liar, hater of freedom for all, bigoted, and right-wing loser. And he's interviewing a right-wing fascist world leader who hates freedom of speech, press, and gay people.

So many people here, and most people on the left, firmly believe in the paradox of tolerance. We don't tolerate intolerance. This interview is between two intolerant people who are promoting intolerance. Those freedoms that we hold dear no longer apply when the person exercising them infringes on our freedoms or democracy.

So you can stop bending over backwards trying to twist this into something we should all be happy to give a platform to, it's messed up.

kava ,

It is quite scary. Unfortunately it's not just Lemmy. The entire country and probably the world is becoming increasingly polarized and reactionary.

I think a lot of this is due to propaganda and astroturfing. Many comments online are faked in some way and then certain views are pushed to the top through vote manipulation.

There are many such active groups on reddit, and I don't doubt they have some influence here. The Politics lemmy is essentially a word-for-word echo of the /r/politics sub.

So rational people who can hold nuanced views sort of get drowned out by the shallow and reactionary views.

This is unfortunately happening on the right as well. Both sides of the establishment are giving up on even pretending to care about the principles they claim to support.

The left is OK with censorship and suppression. The left is OK with supporting war. The right is OK with eliminating personal freedoms. The right is OK with destroying the free market and preventing freedom of movement.

Both sides are slowly becoming the same end-goal. I think the current system is in its death throes. It seems we are going through another period similar to the early 1900s where old ideologies will collapse and new ones will fight for control.

I just hope we can make it out the other side without falling to fascism this time around.

Tramort ,

L it seems like he is.

He also looks like an undeclared Russian agent.

benjhm ,

The problem is that whatever careful process EU implements to restrict spread of fake news etc., authoritarian states will copy its facade and terminology, to justify their own censorship of real news ( in Russia people go to prison for calling a war a war).

RobotToaster ,
@RobotToaster@mander.xyz avatar

The guy spent two hours giving a lecture on Russian history, lol.

aelwero ,

content that incites violence or hate speech from social media.

“They need to expeditiously remove content they are aware of if it is illegal.”

If a social media platform does not comply with the new EU law it can be sanctioned with a hefty fine

This essentially adds up to government proctorship of any "public forum" on the internet, including here... So if I randomly throw an "all lives matter" right here mid-comment, which while at face value is a ridiculously benign thing to say, can be and almost always is considered to be hate speech, lemmy is entirely obligated to immediately remove my comment or face heavy sanctions from the EU.

It's an extreme caricature of an example that I assume won't go anywhere, but the point is that it could, and the deciding factor on that isn't anyone here, the deciding factor is a bunch of rando EU officials... If some Karen in Wales in the right position decides she doesn't like my comment, she could initiate a "hefty" fine against lemmy admins.

It's an absurd concept, and I don't say that in the context of tuker Carlson (who I simply don't give two shits about in any context), I say that in the context of us, as a "social media" community. We are subject to this proctorship, this censorship...

daddyjones ,
@daddyjones@lemmy.world avatar

Minor point, but Wales isn't in the EU.

tabular ,
@tabular@lemmy.world avatar

Karens in Wales: I did what??

eleitl ,

It depends on the legislation on where the instance is hosted and/or personal liability of its operator. As a content contributor (if identifiable) you can be also personally liable. In practice you can host an instance anonymously, using bulletproof hosting and don't care for much for such things.

suction ,

Not true.

modifier ,

Which part?

hedgehog ,

The comment they replied to comprised 6 sentences. 5 of those sentences were untrue or incorrect. The other sentence (the 5th one, starting with “It’s an absurd concept”) is technically true but has a different meaning when read with the understanding that the other sentences are false.

Other replies dive into why it’s untrue.

aelwero ,

Ok, well it was intended to be an opinion, so your assertion that I'm incorrect is incorrect because its my opinion, but that aside, which part?

I reiterate that question because if your opinion is in direct opposition to mine, it is, in my opinion, the one I would most like to hear. I'm a moderate/centrist/libertarian(non-party) and I'd unironically and unsarcastically love to hear your opinion on it. Unless you're just being a pedant, then I'll listen and I respect your right to posit any pedantic objections, but I won't really care much :)

hedgehog ,

Ok, well it was intended to be an opinion, so your assertion that I'm incorrect is incorrect because its my opinion, but that aside, which part?

My understanding is that your opinion is “This is bullshit because X” (where “X” refers to this law applying to Lemmy and thus having the implications you outlined) but your comment was almost entirely about it applying to Lemmy and the implications. If your opinion were “It would be bullshit if it applied to Lemmy,” I would agree with you, but point out that it does not.

This essentially adds up to government proctorship of any "public forum" on the internet, including here...

This is incorrect because the law does not apply to Lemmy. See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Services_Act and the associated sources for more details on why. If you believe that Lemmy has more than 45 million users in the EU please share where you’re getting those figures.

So if I randomly throw an "all lives matter" right here mid-comment, which while at face value is a ridiculously benign thing to say, can be and almost always is considered to be hate speech, lemmy is entirely obligated to immediately remove my comment or face heavy sanctions from the EU.

This hypothetical scenario is irrelevant and the conclusion about Lemmy’s obligations are incorrect because the law does not apply to Lemmy.

It's an extreme caricature of an example that I assume won't go anywhere, but the point is that it could, and the deciding factor on that isn't anyone here, the deciding factor is a bunch of rando EU officials...

“The point is that it could” is incorrect because you have misinterpreted the law as applying to Lemmy when it does not.

If some Karen in Wales in the right position decides she doesn't like my comment, she could initiate a "hefty" fine against lemmy admins.

See above. Karen could do no such thing, even if she was in the EU.

It's an absurd concept, and I don't say that in the context of tuker Carlson (who I simply don't give two shits about in any context), I say that in the context of us, as a "social media" community.

This is the 5th sentence.

We are subject to this proctorship, this censorship...

This is incorrect because as Lemmy users, we are not subject to it, as the law does not apply to Lemmy.

Technically this would be true if you made this statement about those of us who are users of social media platforms to which the laws do apply, but that would be incongruent with your previous statements (and would assume that we are all users of those platforms - and many Lemmy users are not), so I find it fair to not allow for that possibility.

aelwero ,

Sounds an awful lot like sticking your head in the sand.

"Social media" is going to be whatever they decide they want government oversight on... Not being part of the introductory offer isnt a very good reason to accept it in my opinion.

They'll come for your forum eventually...

hedgehog ,

Stating that it applies to Lemmy today is categorically untrue. If you think that explaining why you were wrong is the same as sticking my head in the sand, then that’s evidence that you’re failing at basic logic and reasoning, because that progression is unsound. Are you just mad and not thinking straight or is this indicative of your normal capacity? If the latter, would you like help improving at that or are you committed to carrying on as is?

Your second paragraph is an example of the slippery slope fallacy and your last is simple fearmongering. Do you have any reason to believe those statements or are they, too, just your “opinions?”

I get the impression that you might be under the understanding that you can say anything and call it an opinion. That isn’t actually how opinions work, and in fact, “I’m entitled to my opinion” is a logical fallacy when applied to statements of fact. It’s an especially dangerous one as it’s a thought stopper that enables cognitive dissonance, which is how you end up in a cult. (If you’ve read 1984, “doublethink” is an extreme example of cognitive dissonance.) I suggest you disabuse yourself of the fallacy.

aelwero ,

How you gonna reference 1984 while actively defending an orwellian policy?

hedgehog ,

Are you drunk?

aelwero ,

No, were just apparently on very different wavelengths here (I'm totally fine with this personally, no animosity intended at all, I like discourse and you don't seem like you're being a dick about it, so we're on friendly terms here from my perspective)

Do you not think that government determination of what is or is not acceptable on "social media" (quotes because generalizing) is eerily similar to thoughtcrime? And an orwellian policy? Making a 1984 reference in its defense a little ironic?

I realize I discounted the bulk of your comment and all the "logical fallacy" buzz phrases you threw in, but I generally consider that pedantry and responding to it would bring in bad vibes on my side, so I skipped it, sorry. I can engage it, but I won't have anything to say on it worth reading, it'll just be old guy bullshit....

hedgehog ,

No, were just apparently on very different wavelengths here

Agreed. I promise that I'm trying my best to understand your perspective, too.

we’re on friendly terms here from my perspective

No disagreement here.

Do you not think that government determination of what is or is not acceptable on “social media” (quotes because generalizing) is eerily similar to thoughtcrime? And an orwellian policy? Making a 1984 reference in its defense a little ironic?

No, not at all.

First of all, the alternative is that you give the power to determine what's acceptable entirely to corporations. Almost all corporations already prohibited the sort of speech that would be impacted by these laws.

Second of all, thoughtcrime is fundamentally a different animal than what the EU is doing. Thoughtcrime is the policing of thoughts that are contrary to what the government wants you to think, regardless of whether those thoughts are actually harmful, and it's implemented via pervasive surveillance and a lack of privacy. Criticizing the government is, of course, prohibited.

By contrast, the EU is mandating the censorship of hate speech and calls for violence. The sentiments and logic associated with that hate speech are used as justification for violence and to restrict liberties. And this type of speech is not legally protected in the US under the 1st Amendment.

In 1984, the government rewrites history and uses a multitude of techniques that trick you into accepting things that are not true as being true. This is why it's important to be able to recognize logical fallacies - they're used by all sorts of propaganda techniques with the goal of getting people to act against their own best interests, e.g., by getting poor people to vote for Republicans or to support laws that infringe on our liberties by justifying them by saying "It's for the children!" The world would be a better place if misinformation and misleading propaganda at scale (meaning, in advertisement, on news shows, etc.) were illegal.

I don't have to engage in doublethink to accept the justification for the EU's law, but the arguments that you've shared for why I should oppose it would require that of me. Ultimately, what I'm asking you is: why would I be opposed to a law that itself is 100% fine, just because the same legislators might later pass a different law that I don't like? This law doesn't make it any easier for them to pass one like what you described.

aelwero ,

Ultimately, what I'm asking you is: why would I be opposed to a law that itself is 100% fine, just because the same legislators might later pass a different law that I don't like?

Ultimately because the basic premise of the law could (in general) be the basis for the government to remove our entire conversation here...

It is potentially a tool to do this

In 1984, the government rewrites history and uses a multitude of techniques that trick you into accepting things that are not true as being true.

I don't object for the sake of my my benefit, I object for the sake of yours (everyone).

I see it a one degree increment on the proverbial frog in the proverbial pot, being slowly but surely brought to boil and it's death, and I don't really care who it affects in the moment.

hedgehog ,

Ultimately because the basic premise of the law could (in general) be the basis for the government to remove our entire conversation here...

It is potentially a tool to do this

In 1984, the government rewrites history and uses a multitude of techniques that trick you into accepting things that are not true as being true.

The laws are completely unlike another, so the progression you’ve described isn’t a concern. One law regulates mega corporations who already have relationships with EU countries; the one you’ve described would regulate ordinary people.

Corporations aren’t people, no matter what they would have you believe. They don’t need to be defended in the same way.

And of course any of those people outside the EU could just ignore them. So even if I thought it were likely that the EU would do this, I wouldn’t care. If the EU sanctioned a Lemmy instance, it wouldn’t ultimately matter; Lemmy instance owners would need to ensure that their hosting setup was outside the EU but that’s it.

I don't object for the sake of my my benefit, I object for the sake of yours (everyone).

I see it a one degree increment on the proverbial frog in the proverbial pot, being slowly but surely brought to boil and it's death, and I don't really care who it affects in the moment.

I’m concerned about people’s freedom being effectively taken away by corporations - e.g., pushing up the price of housing by “investing” in the housing market and making it unaffordable for lower income people; lobbying for regulations that make it unaffordable for small businesses to enter spaces that large businesses already exist in; lobbying for regulations that make it difficult to exert our power against them; heck, just being treated as people and being able to donate to political campaigns in the first place; exploiting workers; exploiting resources; and so on.

I’m concerned about the ways that the US government takes away our individual and collective freedoms - e.g., gerrymandering; refusal to implement a proper system for elections that doesn’t result in people thinking their votes are being wasted if they vote for third parties; the rights of women that have been revoked with Roe v. Wade being overturned and the laws passed since; our public school budgets being siphoned to subsidize private schools for the rich; slashing public aid programs such that we become even more beholden to corporations; and so on.

There is a frog being boiled, but it’s us, and the stove is much closer to home.

GeneralVincent ,

"me talking out my ass about the law is just my opinion, you can't argue with me now"

Not how that works at all

key ,

Doesn't apply here, Lemmy is way too tiny. The law only applies the largest platforms. Reddit doesn't even qualify. Of course maybe that changes someday, but currently the law applies to 19 sites.

autotldr Bot ,

This is the best summary I could come up with:

The EU’s far-reaching new laws to regulate tech companies including X and Facebook will face their first big test on Thursday night when former Fox News host Tucker Carlson’s interview with Vladimir Putin is aired in the US.

The interview has raised concerns within the EU that it will be used as part of Putin’s wider “information war”, with the likelihood that clips would spread across social media, particularly on Elon Musk’s X platform, providing the Russian leader with a propaganda coup.

However, at the daily press conference of the European Commission officials made clear that X and other platforms would be obliged to remove illegal content under the bloc’s Digital Services Act, which came into force last year.

“This is a new law; we have never been here before,” said one insider, adding there had not been any contact with Elon Musk or Mark Zuckerberg of Meta relating to the interview as the onus was entirely theirs to operate legally in the EU.

The foreign affairs spokesperson pointed out that Putin and a wide network of oligarchs and other associates had already been issued with sanctions in the EU but said there had been “no discussion” of doing the same with Carlson, as had been suggested by some, over the interview.

Carlson is a former Fox News host, a key ally of 2024 election candidate Donald Trump, and a vocal opponent to US military aid for Ukraine.

The original article contains 644 words, the summary contains 238 words. Saved 63%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!

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