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daltotron ,

Nature doesn't have a consciousness, it just is. I think to anthropomorphize it as having one, to conceptualize it as being some kind of actor with goals or morals, is kind of to not understand it fundamentally, or to accept what it is. It's just another extension of the naturalist fallacy.

That's not really to advocate, you know, for climate change, or what have you, but I also don't really believe that this is going to be the thing that takes people out, weirdly? I mean, certainly, the holocene extinction is going to be a thing, and it's going to cause mass human and animal suffering and extinction on a scale that is only precedented by meteors and the like. That's looking pretty inevitable, at this point, to me. The thing is, I don't think the species as a whole, the human species, really needs or relies on nature to survive, at this point. Pollinators, maybe, but aren't we at a point where corn and other crops upon which we rely for a good, like, 50% of our mass produced highly processed food is really reliant on a lot of "natural" things. Or, isn't reliant on like, nature, as a whole. It's all as a result of discrete resources which are highly individualized and pretty isolated. Maybe large amounts of the land becomes non-arable, I dunno.

I think more broadly though, what I find to be slightly more probable than that as a counterargument is frankly that I can kind of imagine the end of the world, without the end of capitalism. Most people say it's easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism, right, but they still imagine the end of the world as being kind of mutually inclusive to the end of capitalism. No, I think capitalism, I think capitalists, our plutocrats, our idiots in charge, would probably rather keep the planet on a tenuous kind of life support, where you don't really have non-globalized, local ecology, environmental variation, the like. I think they would rather prevent the apocalypse by whatever margin is most deemed most profitable. We have schemes for cloud-seeding to block out more UV light, which would probably kill a bunch of plants and mess up a ton of ecosystems from geographically irregular and potentially unpredictable irrigation. We have schemes for dumping huge amounts of iron oxide into the ocean to kickstart massive algae blooms that can sequester carbon dioxide and probably increase ocean acidification. We have schemes for genetically modifying human and food supply-threatening viruses and invasive species to start to self-terminate after the genes propagate to like, the seventh generation. Hell, there's even some level by which people might argue that invasive species are good, because they provide an inherent surplus population sourced from natural ecology that humans could kind of skim the top off. When those things end up going sideways, or otherwise threatening the bottom line, we'll probably start seeing people just implement more short term solutions, that kick the can five years down the road, while mass ecological and human extinctions are constantly ongoing and potential quality of life plummets for the general population. Apocalypse as an ongoing process, rather than as a singular event.

Thinking that an ecological apocalypse would be the end of it, that humans are that easily crushed and nature can/will just go on totally unbothered, I think that's a rather optimistic viewpoint. It also missess the mass amounts of suffering which are currently ongoing by looking to some theoretical future, much like AI tech evangelists do with the singularity, idiot leftists tend to do with "the revolution", evangelicals do with the rapture. We need to, uhh, maybe figure out a better structure and approach, here.

Hackworth ,

We rely on nature for everything. The water wars will make that more apparent, I suppose.

daltotron ,

Yeah see, that's what I'm talking about. Like what the fuck would the water wars even be? That shit don't make no sense, it's not like water is a non-renewable resource. Freshwater is maybe a larger concern, right, but climate change means more solar heat which means more water evaporation which means more fresh rainwater and not less. Maybe in combination with increased acidification because of emissions and related things, maybe in combination with a decreased capacity to absorb that rainwater because of desertification and much increased rainwater runoff due to too large a volume of water for a dried out landscape. No part of that really involves a water war, though. That's just some pop culture shit.

Hackworth ,

Yes, the water wars will be about fresh water. No one goes to war over water that needs to be boiled. And no, climate change does not mean more fresh water.

barsoap ,

Nature doesn’t have a consciousness, it just is. I think to anthropomorphize it as having one, to conceptualize it as being some kind of actor with goals or morals, is kind of to not understand it fundamentally, or to accept what it is. It’s just another extension of the naturalist fallacy.

There's a flipside to this, and that's the "blind nature" fallacy. Like Neodarwinists trying hard to ignore physiology and with that the fact that the way selection works is not a random process, but a process employing randomness strategically: The natural error in DNA transcription is quite high, correction mechanisms then bring that down to virtually zero, then, after that, mutations are introduced again. And it makes a hell a lot of sense: If you have a finch which has trouble getting food it's much more fruitful to mess around with the beak shape than to mess with mitochondrial DNA. Our genome and physiology has ways of detecting environmental pressure and reacting to it on that kind of level. Any genomic line containing that kind of capability is way more fit in the ways of adapting than one that doesn't, thus, it out-competes the others. Long since has. In case you have an hour for a physiology lecture.

Is it "a mind"? Well, it depends on your definition of mind. But it's definitely not "mindless": It's deliberate. It's not blindly throwing shit at the wall, it's strategically throwing shit at the wall and coming down to it our minds don't have a better strategy, either.

Cryophilia ,

Thinking that an ecological apocalypse would be the end of it, that humans are that easily crushed and nature can/will just go on totally unbothered, I think that’s a rather optimistic viewpoint. It also missess the mass amounts of suffering which are currently ongoing by looking to some theoretical future, much like AI tech evangelists do with the singularity, idiot leftists tend to do with “the revolution”, evangelicals do with the rapture. We need to, uhh, maybe figure out a better structure and approach, here.

We need to be blasting this shit into the ears of everyone on lemmy, 24/7. Bunch of fucking secular cultists. Wake the fuck up and smell the shit you're walking in, and then grab a shovel.

technomad ,

Mother Gaia is Savage 😳

Emmie ,
@Emmie@lemm.ee avatar

Mother Gaia is a cruel and brutal bitch. Just read up on Darwin. No nazis killed as many beings as natural selection

IlovePizza ,

Or limited and fallible.

unreasonabro ,

This is the only correct perspective, and there are relatively few people specifically at fault for the lying that's been done to the public on important issues.

boatsnhos931 ,

My hero! She gives and takes life without hesitation. If you can't cut it, you cease to exist. There is no discussion of politics, neurodivergency, gender, or religion. 🥰

ndru ,

Well, not until you brought it up.

boatsnhos931 ,

😞

Kichae ,

I see someone is asking to be dumped in the middle of the atlantic alone to test whether they "cut it" or not.

boatsnhos931 ,

The human race probably won't thrive in the Atlantic but if they are dumb enough to try we probably don't want them passing their genes on anyway

Wiwiweb ,
@Wiwiweb@sh.itjust.works avatar

https://youtu.be/micqddM5mqk

Cryophilia ,

This is so fucking stupid.

No seriously. Stop. Think. This is SO FUCKING STUPID.

Humans can live IN SPACE. We are NOT destroying ourselves. We are HYPER ADVANCED COCKROACHES. We will easily survive whatever damage we cause to the planet.

The problem with destroying the planet is not that we're destroying humanity. What a stupid, egocentric take. The problem with destroying the planet IS THAT WE'RE DESTROYING THE PLANET.

"Mass extinction? Eh who cares" is a FUCKING STUPID TAKE and I have no clue why so many people here are okay with it. What the fuck is wrong with all of you? This is NOT OKAY. MASS EXTINCTIONS ARE NOT OKAY.

Is this a fucking psyop? What the fuck?

Ropianos ,

Well, survive yes. But self-sufficiency is a big problem. The world is nowadays so interconnected that even a problem in only one region can severely affect all of humanity (e.g. semiconductors from Taiwan). So yes, a collapse of our modern society is certainly possible.

Destroying the planet is not really a thing. Mass extinctions in the past were a big deal but at the same time: Earth recovered. We only have a big problem because the plants/animals we need might go extinct.

Obviously valuing nature and wildlife diversity in and of itself is good but it doesn't have any intrinsic value in regards to supporting society.

Cryophilia ,

Destroying the planet is not really a thing

Also, can everyone please shut the fuck up with the "Well ACKSHUALLY, you're not destroying the literal ball of rock and magma so you're not destroying the planet". Fuck you, you know what it means.

Ropianos ,

Sorry, I meant "destroy the planet" as in lifeless/only single celled organisms.

And you can kind of see humanity as "just another big asteroid impact". Nature will recover competeley over the next million years or so. That's what I meant with mass extinctions being kind of inconsequential for the planet as a whole on geological time scales.

Obviously mass extinctions are also bad besides their effect on human society, I just meant that that is mostly a spiritual one thats hard to measure, about lost potential and eradicating a species. As a thought experiment, is eradicating a disease, a form of life, inherently negative? Mosquitoes? Do you agree that it's a big achievement that we eradicated small pox? What if we eradicate all existing diseases?

Cryophilia ,

Mass extinctions are different. We should be aiming to never have any more mass extinctions ever.

Ropianos ,

Yeah, I guess that was a bit of a strawman. Obviously mass extinctions are bad.

Cryophilia ,

Mass extinctions are BAD. Not because of how it affects human society, Jesus Christ. They're just bad because we shouldn't be fucking up the planet. That should be a baseline moral understanding and it's terrifying that none of you are seeing it.

BlueMagma ,

I think you might have misread the message of this comic. It's not saying mass extinction is ok, or that we shouldn't try to preserve the environment. It's saying nature doesn't need us, and we are killing ourselves. Nature and life will go on long after climate change kill us all. It's saying humans are so egocentric they use the words "destroying the planet" when they only destroy themselves.

Also as far as I know we can't live in space for very long currently.

HawlSera ,

We might be able to evolve and adapt to the harsh condition of space.... in a few generations of breeding in space.

You see the Catch-22

Cryophilia ,

Nature needs us to stop destroying nature.

Krauerking ,

Just to touch on a problem but there.

Humans can live IN SPACE.

Ahhh no... We can habitat space. We really really can't live there.

We can't really give birth or develop in space, gravity unlike ours will eventually deteriorate our bodies, even on Mars you will go blind and start developing clots before too long just from the slightly lower gravity. And that's nothing of the radiation we are blocked from here on Earth.

The list is long and bad. We are adaptable but mostly on Earth adaptable. Able to survive climates and regions not everything ever. We can probably eventually figure out space but we can never just live there.

So when we destroy the planet we might really just take ourselves out too.

Cryophilia ,

Of course we can. We could build a giant rotating shielded space station. We have all the technology, we just haven't done it because it's expensive.

Krauerking ,

I studied theoretical astrophysics as part of an earth and space exploration field.

Trust me, we really don't just have all the technology. That doesn't answer a lot of problems and you are assuming our level of science.

We might be able to figure out a good chunk of it if money is of no cost but that's no guarantee.

Man not even to talk about material cost. It would take us decades.

Cryophilia ,

Name a few problems.

Krauerking ,

Yeah I am not inspired to actually bother answering that if you are coming into this without an expectation of an actual conversation.

It sounds more like you want a fight and that's not what I'm doing.

Space is not an easy answer. Even if you just want it to be.

Cryophilia ,

I don't really like "trust me bro" takes on things.

Krauerking ,

Yeah and you are doing the same. I pulled my credentials you just don't want to be wrong cause it hurts your feelings.

Cryophilia ,

I'm asking for examples of how it won't work. I've given examples of how I believe it would work.

Krauerking ,

Your example was a generic from science fiction vague statement about a shielded rotating space station.

You have no experience or expertise to back up your statement.

It ignores the extra damage a large space station takes from micro asteroids by being a larger target. It ignores fuel costs of moving something that large into orbit. It ignores food and oxygen limitations on populace. It ignores low gravity birth issues. Radiation issues. Issues of diseases, resources collection and management.

You made a vague uneducated guess of an idea and demanded it be the requirement of others to prove you wrong.

You took the same argument style of a maga conspiracy conservative.

Stop being such a a child and a martyr.

Cryophilia ,

[Thread, post or comment was deleted by the moderator]

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    Krauerking ,

    No.

    Cryophilia ,

    Removed by mod.

    Cryophilia ,

    [Thread, post or comment was deleted by the moderator]

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    Krauerking ,

    It's a conversation. Are you really this upset just cause reality is less magical than science fiction?

    It's not a peanut gallery. It's the rest of the users on this site. The whole point of being here.

    Cryophilia ,

    [Thread, post or comment was deleted by the moderator]

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    Krauerking ,

    The idea of living in space was on topic that you brought up.

    You were wrong about it.

    If you are upset then get off the Internet don't take it out on other people assuming you are the only one who is right.

    Cryophilia ,

    [Thread, post or comment was deleted by the moderator]

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    Krauerking ,

    And then an emotional response instead of recognition. You really are immature and can't handle being wrong about a subject.

    No, you don't care. If you are wrong you are. Grow up and move on.

    No one else cares if you are incorrect either I was just trying to inform you the way you think you are informing others.

    TakeBackAlberta ,

    This is garbage. God gave man dominion over the earth.

    OutlierBlue , (edited )

    I don't believe your mythology, but imagine giving someone a wonderful gift to enjoy and live off, and they drop their pants and shit all over it.

    TakeBackAlberta ,

    [Thread, post or comment was deleted by the moderator]

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    kilgore_trout ,
    @kilgore_trout@feddit.it avatar

    Did you read what they wrote?

    TakeBackAlberta ,

    Yes. Communism is devil worship. No one has any right to what's mine and I have no requirement to contribute to a non-christian society or help non-christians. We're on our way there, but posts like this get in our way.

    AppleTea ,

    You worship the stock market and private property like a golden calf.

    Facebones ,

    Bad troll is bad.

    StupidBrotherInLaw ,

    [Thread, post or comment was deleted by the moderator]

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    Psythik ,

    Why the fuck are you bringing up communism and "devil worship" when literally no one said anything about it?

    el_abuelo ,
    • sees someone disagree with their mythology
    • proceeds to assume they must be a communist and try and insult them

    You're not a very good Christian.

    Objection ,
    @Objection@lemmy.ml avatar

    Communism is devil worship

    Based, long live comrade Satan!

    Flax_vert ,

    Exactly. As a Christian we should be caretakers of the earth because God saw it and it was good and made us to look after it

    BoxerDevil ,

    And we are running it straight to hell

    TakeBackAlberta ,

    [Thread, post or comment was deleted by the moderator]

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    BoxerDevil ,

    Oh look it's a fake Christian. Someone who doesn't follow what Christ told them to do.

    Krauerking ,

    No, just a shitty roleplaying troll.

    BoxerDevil ,

    Same difference

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    cumskin_genocide ,

    You think Gaia would embrace me in those tig ol'bitties

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