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Is there any demand left for 'game systems developers'? As in, people knowledgeable on Win32 or POSIX API, PE/ELF, Compilers and Interpreters, etc, when it concerns games exclusively? (+UNIX engine?)

I don't think my knowledge is complete about Windows side of things (PE and Win32 API, MASM, VC++ etc) so I never dared apply for such jobs. But I have never seen one either. I think it theoretically should exist. The systems side of gaming, especially developing a portable framework, developing retargetable, optimizing compilers which prioritize game dev, these are all roles that should potentially exist. I was wondering, if they exist, is it worth building up exclusive skills that would attract recruiters? Mind you that I live in a country that is adversary to the US (very much so) and a US company is not going to hire me for remote development, rather, all I can wish for are smaller developers, indies and European (especially Eastern European) developers. Local developers are another issue, I am a college dropout and I get a feeling that local developers (who mostly make shitty phone games, similar to South Koreans and the Chinese) would not wish to hire a college dropout for such critical task.

That is, if any of these local, or European, or East Asian developers even need someone of this skillset. I once went to interview for a local game dev, and that was back in 2015-2016, I saw a bunch of young men and women (much older at me at the time, not so much now!) sat around this large table, with workstations in front of them. The owner gave me a tour of 'the office' (aka the room) and most of them were running Android Studio on Windows. There was another group running Unity. Another group had a 3D software open. I did not recognize the rest of the toolchain people were using.

All I know is, unless for a large gaming conglomerate that builds its own engine, there's no need for a systems developer in the gaming space.

Correct me if I am wrong here. I have been jumping from discipline to discipline ever since I dropped out due to bipolarity (I gave a girl a flower, she mocked me, I got embarrassed and dropped out, true story). I have managed to learn a 'good' amount of POSIX API. You can see my works here.

TL;DR: (apologies if it got long)

Do smaller devs need systems experts, and is it worth investing time in learning Win32 API and how PE works and learn MASM dialect of x86-64 Assembly (I know AT&T)? Would I be able to find a job in the discipline --- as someone who is extremely untalated in graphic and sound design etc?

Apologies if this question gets asked a lot (if it gets asked).

PS: I was reading 'Game Engine Architecture' by Jason Gregory, and I realized it is completely within my power to cook up an engine that targets Direct Media Layer using LibMesaGL (OpenGL for Direct Media Layer). Do you think it's worth doing it? Does the world need another engine, this time targeted at UNIX systems like Linux, MacOS and BSD?

Toes ,
@Toes@ani.social avatar

In my experience, they are hiring programmers with broad capabilities and not people with laser focused specialities. (Even in game design)

Although, being able to offer the ability to properly port a game to the steam deck and switch would be valuable assets.

Knowledge in how to build and deploy soak/smoke farms and make meaningful use of them is a valuable skill.

Experience with anticheat software development is a helpful unicorn skill. (This is where assembly knowledge is essential)

Being comfortable with the major engines and design tools such as unreal and blender.

You probably won't get a interview unless you've expressed core competencies in C++, Lua and 3D environments.

ChubakPDP11 OP ,

Most of my programs are in C Link. Would this turn them off? I have no issue learning a new language mind you, let alone, superset of one I know. What worries me is the standard library. It's not hard to learn a language, it's hard to learn its standard library. For example, Rust has an extremely non-POSIX-ly STD. It really turns me off. To this day I have no clue how to close a file in Rust. I am implementing AWK in Rust, since there's already an AWK in Go and I think there must be one in Rust. However there's no damn close function! There's no file descriptors. I know Rust does most of its shit during compile-time and it's mostly a meta language with focus on denotational semantics (which I just happen to write a Gist document about here) so I finally had to make a ChatGPT model to explain Rust to me. I have a ChatGPT model for most languages, just to look them up.

I am also making a Ruby script to create manpages for Rust. Based on the JSON files that come with Rust-Doc package on Pop_OS!. If anyone wants to help me with those. that would be great. Thanks.

Toes ,
@Toes@ani.social avatar

Honestly that all looks good, if you were able to demonstrate graph theory, with something like a-star and some game mods you would probably be able to bust into the industry.

Just keep in mind you'll probably need to start out in a junior role first.

ChubakPDP11 OP ,

As it happens, I am in the process of making a documentation language with equation and graph support, taking hints from GraphViz, and initially targets PostScript. Structurally, I know how DAGs work. I have used DAGs in this abandoned compiler I was working on:

https://github.com/Chubek/Batmite

dag.c

It also has a graph coloring code.

I stopped working on it. I also learned about graphs in HS and first semester of college at DiscMath class, but they were basic info. I then learned about graphs by reading Rosen's discmath. I wanna read 7th edition. But ChatGPT has made me lazy. Why read a book fully when I can make a model, tell it to absorb the book (I think they have downloaded the entire libgen into their model? Am I wrong here? Why does it know every book libgen has, and does not know every book ligen does NOT have?) and then quiz it? haha.

Smorty ,

Does one have to specialize in proprietary engines (unreal and unity) or do you mean general knowledge of how things work in these engines (I'm a Godot person, that's why I'm asking).

Toes ,
@Toes@ani.social avatar

Just wanted to give examples of popular tools.

Familiarity with different tools is helpful.

mozz ,

[Thread, post or comment was deleted by the author]

    •
    ChubakPDP11 OP ,

    I was invited to a FLOSS engine project, I think it was Piston. I did not know much so I just bailed. I usually prefer making stuff from scratch because my aim is to learn, I know the software I write has no use. Like rn I am writing a UNIX shell. Just to learn (I just remoted it, see my profile).

    Still, I doubt I will ever get a systems job. I don't have a degree. I dropped out. I will get one eventually, but I doubt the shirtty thirdie for-profit college I can afford is going to be attractive to recruiters.

    I do have a job currently, it pays enough for thirdie living especially given the devaluation of currency here. I just want to have a job where I am not ignored for days by my client, like the job I have now.

    I think it's everyone's dream to make a FLOSS that attracts pay piggies, I would like that too but I don't put much stonk on it. It's as delusional as people who clone a Todo app and expect to get hired by anyone.

    Delusions run rampant in this discipline sadly. People are entitled. I think a degree is important because I would personally not entrust a non-degree holder with the stuff I personally like.

    I try not to be entitled but I need to eat.

    Anyways sorry if I am rambling.

    porgamrer ,

    You are right that having a shiny education gives people a huge advantage. It's not everything though.

    For example, I have a friend who makes 6 figures in europe doing performance-oriented C++ work, with no degree. Once you get the first job it becomes far easier.

    Getting the first job is tough, but having personal projects really helps. Don't undersell yourself. You need to give people the impression that you dropped out due to pure happenstance (e.g. health or family issues that are now resolved). Make them think that you are a lucky find; if you had finished the degree you'd already be at a bigger company with a bigger salary.

    ChubakPDP11 OP ,

    Yeah you are right. Still, the sanctions make things hard to find job in most American or even Western European countries. American countries literally need a permission from the state department to 'officially' hire from here, but Western European countries avoid hiring Iranians because banking is extremely limited -- at least in theory. I have 2 PayPal accounts, one under my own name, one under some dude's name I don't know. With courier services it's very easy to transfer money. Even given the 'recent developments'. Not to mention crypto. Also, banks such as Turkey's Ziraat open accounts for Iranian nationales in a day or two, problem is, you have to be physically there. I am home-bound, a homebody. That is why I dropped out of JDM. I could not simply convince myself to step out of the threshold of our home. It's either very cold, very hot, and when it's temperate, my nose starts running like a ravine. I have lost both my male and female friends as well, to pill addiction (mine, not theirs). Coffee shops here have this thing called 'public table' to make up for the lack of bars and clubs, but I don't simply want to go out. The last time I went out was 6 months ago, no joking. I have two psychiatrists. I just pop Rialin and code.

    All the 'cool jobs' here are either military shit which puts you on Bibi's radar, or college-educated only. Shit work exists. But even they don't do remote. Fuck them. Currency is so devalued t makes no sense to work locally.

    Sorry if I am trauma-dumping (why is it a word anyways, these damn muricans label everything) --- just venting.

    porgamrer ,

    To be honest I have no frame of reference to understand what it's like to try and find a job while navigating the American economic sanctions. It sounds awful. Is there no prospect of finding remote work in the other BRICS nations? I was under the impression that they try to avoid relying on american-controlled software, so I thought this would create some employment opportunities.

    ChubakPDP11 OP ,

    There should be plenty. I applied to two in Turkey, they were fine jobs. All these countries are even healthier than America in some aspects, economy-wise. The jobs in Turkey were cool af. There are some duds in BRIC like Turkmenistan though. I think I have to focus my attention on a Christian nation, rather than a Muslim nation. Chances that there would be expats from English-speaking countries in Georgia is much higher than being one in Turkey. And that is the ultimate problem I face, language. I speak Persian natively and English at L2 level, and I would have issues communicating. I once interviewed for an on-site data pipeline engineering job in the capital, I wanted to fail it because moving cities is impossible for me. I interviewed with a Russian dude, or was he Ukrainian or Belarusian, anways, he worked for the Iranian company in questions and his accent was thick, my accent was thick and even if I wanted to pass the test and rail that cute recruiter daily and nightly and ever so rightly, I would not have been able to.

    Let's not forget about Russia. They have a much stronger software industry than BRIC nations.

    I got one callback from Turkish company, they were making Real-time OSes. Zilch. I don't think even if the Ayatollah rizzed Biden and vice versa and Iran was a member of G7 + 2, it would not have made a difference, neither for BRIC, nor for EU, and none for NA ,os SA or SEA. It's just impossible to get a job when I think of myself worse than dirt.

    Plus I don't know much either.

    Thanks.

    PotentialProblem ,

    Keep your head up!

    I’ve worked with many Iranians here in the US and all of them are excellent engineers. At least one of them managed to get over here without a college degree and work his way up to a comfortable software job.

    Not having a degree is going to be rough as far as immigration goes… but you’re capable of figuring out complex systems so you’re capable of figuring this out. Easier said than done… but if you keep pushing you’ll get somewhere. If you accept defeat early, you’ll get nowhere.

    ChubakPDP11 OP ,

    Thanks man. Immigration is not on my docket though. I'm too sedentary.

    SurvivalMariner , (edited )

    I'll be honest, and sorry in advance, but it'll help you more. Your cynicism is probably the thing getting in the way. I understand it's rough and not fun, but you've got to avoid it grinding you down.

    You need to give yourself reasons to stand out. Making a half baked unfinished engine that no one uses isn't as impresive as improving an existing one that people use. Greenfield projects are rare and you probably not going to get that as a first role. So you need to prove to employers you can take legacy code, learn it, understand it, improve it and get it live. Demonstrating you have the capability to do that on a FOSS project demonstrates you may be able to do that on an in-house engine. You also learn from the code others write. Why did they do it this way? Is it better? What are the pros and cons? Degrees differentiate, yes, but a green person out of uni vs someone who has proven they can do a similar job, you have an advantage. Plus, 5 PRS is probably easier than a new engine. Making one from scratch cannot hurt, but it doesn't prove everything they need to know. Businesses hire because they have a problem and need someone competent to solve that problem. Tick those boxes and remove the risk and you have reasonable chances.

    If you only demonstrate you're not comfortable going out of your comfort zone and getting your hands dirty, you are not helping yourself.

    So give them reasons to hire you, give yourself a chance, and keep applying. Give yourself a 2% chance, apply to 50 jobs, give yourself a 10% chance, apply for 10, but always go over the odds.

    Remember, industry is rough right now. A lot of experienced proven folk got let go in last year. Might need to improve your odds and bide your time.

    ChubakPDP11 OP ,

    Thanks a lot. Really appreciate it.

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