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Wayland vs Xorg be like

Yes, I made it using a laptop's trackpad, how could you tell?

[Image description:
Panel 1: Young man confidently walking, his vest bears the Wayland logo. Behind him is a grunt with the Gnome logo on his face holding a katana. The young man says: "It's high time you retire, old man!"
Panel 2: An old man with a long beard and the Xorg logo on his chest is sitting on a throne and petting a rat, the XFCE mascot. He says: "It's still a hundred years too early for you to defeat me!" ]

illegalargumentexc ,
@illegalargumentexc@lemmy.world avatar

i like x because it runs well on my legacy hardware

but i'm also rooting for progress, so i'm also glad xfce is adding wayland support

TheGingerNut ,
@TheGingerNut@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

I don't have X installed on my desktop or laptop. Haven't for some time.

MeanEYE ,
@MeanEYE@lemmy.world avatar

Except X.org should be frail and have tubes running out of every orifice on their body. They are on life support and receiving updates only related to Xwayland.

Corr ,

One of the main issues blocking me from going to Wayland is an app (cursr) that lets me move my cursor between different resolution displays only runs in X. Is there a solution in Wayland for this? I can post elsewhere but thought this seemed like a decent first step

TotalSonic ,
@TotalSonic@lemmy.world avatar

As far as tablet usage goes - with Ubuntu 23.10 running the latest "Surface Linux" kernel on my Surface Go gen 1, Wayland is finally buttery smooth. Screen rotation with Wayland is near instant, where as on xorg takes a couple seconds.

I can't say the same for my dual boot desktop that has an Nvidia 1050ti in it going to a 55" tv monitor via HDMI though - had to hook up a second monitor from dvi just to be able to login - which was not the case on Xorg.

Oh well, baby steps, but Wayland is definitely growing up fast and getting closer to being daily dtiver ready for nearly all use cases.

bruhduh ,
@bruhduh@lemmy.world avatar

RDT_20240210_0216455647139970498497433

bruhduh ,
@bruhduh@lemmy.world avatar

RDT_20240204_1817297523627612921776662

bruhduh ,
@bruhduh@lemmy.world avatar

RDT_20240210_0218596256699900147022099

zzx ,

This is amazing

FluffyPotato ,

Very true. Like I would love it if something worked as solidly as X but Wayland has had like 15 years to get it's shit together and it's still not there. There are plenty of people for who it does work too but 2 out of the 3 computers I use regularly have issues with Wayland.

Pantherina ,

I have to always be 1/3 lol

synapse1278 ,
@synapse1278@lemmy.world avatar

I have 4 computers, all run Wayland, none have issue. If you have some nVidia or otherwise exotic Hw you may have issues, but Wayland is already very mature for regular use.

FluffyPotato ,

On my old laptop with a dedicated Nvidia card and integrated AMD Wayland works as long as you only use integrated graphics otherwise crashes are common.

On my new laptop with both integrated and dedicated AMD graphics it works without issue.

On my desktop with a 5800x3d and 7900XT it's usable but on Wayland hardware acceleration of video just does not work for some reason. About half of more demanding games have a very noticeable stutter and there is a full system freeze every week or so. With X those issues aren't present on that machine.

As I said: Works for some people but not for others.

psmgx ,

Okay now do one with systemd

Siegfried ,

Chad X11

chemicalwonka ,
@chemicalwonka@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

Nice reference as Xfce still not implemented Wayland support as far as I know.

spookedbyroaches ,

Yeah duh. It's called X fce??!?

chemicalwonka ,
@chemicalwonka@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

so when they finish Wayland implementation will be Wfce? lol

Pantherina ,

They are working on it, while keeping the xorg session alive

rollmagma ,

This is good stuff right here.

dannoffs ,
@dannoffs@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

It's the systemd drama all over again

nxdefiant ,

No.

System D was/Is a philosophical debate.

Wayland vs X is a mortal attempting to summit Mt. Everest naked.
Everyone is cheering Wayland on, no one believes it'll succeed.

Even the X people are like "Honestly it'd be a relief if you pulled this off, we're so tired, please end us"

Kusimulkku ,

Everyone is cheering Wayland on, no one believes it'll succeed.

Uhhmm. I think by now most see it inevitable with distros and DEs switching on increasing pace

flying_sheep ,
@flying_sheep@lemmy.ml avatar

What the fuck is “System D”?

Pantherina ,

Let me google that for you

nxdefiant ,

I think that was an attempt to call me out for giving zero fucks about Android spellcheck dicking with my comment.

Pantherina ,

No for not searching it up yourself lol

eya ,
@eya@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

google?

Pantherina ,

Let me quack that for you then

loaExMachina OP , (edited )

Is that the word for using Duckduckgo? I figured it'd be "duckduckgoing", like "I just duckduckwent systemd". Anyway, I use searx, so I'd obviously say "I searxed".

Pantherina ,

Quacking is just way better haha

Cris_Color ,
@Cris_Color@lemmy.world avatar

No one thinks it'll succeed? Obviously you and I exist in very different parts of the linux sphere, cause I'm pretty sure X11 is all but dead as a project and its kinda just a question of how long it takes for Wayland to be feature complete enough to reach a critical mass of adoption. And its kinda feeling like we're currently on the cusp of being there with the major DEs moving towards discontinuing X11 support 😅

nxdefiant ,

X is 36 years old. Wayland is 15. Wayland was not the first attempt at unseating that throne and for the sake of all our sanity, I hope it's the last. I don't want Wayland to win because it's better, I want Wayland to win because I'm tired of trying to use it and having to go back to X because it broke something.

Holzkohlen ,

Sounds like a skill issue to me

azertyfun ,

This software has been in development for a long time and still doesn't work for my niche usecase and this therefore UNUSABLE and DOOMED TO FAIL

  • Actual Linux users, completely oblivious to the irony of that sentence
acockworkorange ,

That's a weird take. You have a software that you use and suits your needs. It's showing its age, but still tricks along. Then there's this other software that's gaining spotlight, but it does not suit all your needs. You point out the regression. Some rando makes fun of your valid point.

azertyfun ,

I agree with what you're saying, but you're shifting the goalpost.

Everyone is cheering Wayland on, no one believes it’ll succeed

That parent comment (and other comments like it in these threads) are what I take issue with. You can make the exact same argument why people should stick with Windows and not bother with Linux.

acockworkorange ,

But.. You didn't take issue with that. You ridicularized a completely different statement, one that was valid even. You pulled a reverse strawman on yourself. If you'd made a counterpoint to original post, I'd have agreed with you.

FrostyCaveman ,

Is that the C++ mascot rat? As famously illustrated by rms?

Revan343 ,

I choose to believe that's the Xfce rat. The C++ one is fatter

Kusimulkku ,

Can't be Xfce. No vsync line in the middle

loaExMachina OP ,

It's the Xfce mouse

Rozauhtuno ,
@Rozauhtuno@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

No one asked but, the mascot's name is Xue btw.

independantiste , (edited )
@independantiste@sh.itjust.works avatar

Wayland gets so many more of the basics so much better than X11 it's not even funny anymore. X11 is stuttery, unsecure, unmaintaned, can't really be updated for new features that are pretty important in 2024 (VRR, HDR). For now with my usage, the only big disadvantage I saw from Wayland is that you can't restart it like X11 when something goes wrong, but that's the thing, I haven't had to restart it like I had to often with X11. Even on Nvidia Wayland is better now, except maybe for gaming but that's Nvidia for you.

Rustmilian ,
@Rustmilian@lemmy.world avatar

You absolutely can restart Wayland. The command to do so is just specific to whichever DE or WM you're using as they have their own Wayland Compositor implementation.

Pantherina ,

DEs should implement good commands for that

  • start session from tty (example startplasma-wayland)
  • logout (example qdbus org.kde.ksmserver /KSMServer logout 0 3 3)
  • restart wayland server (example kwin_wayland --replace)

Some of those are completely undiscoverable

Rustmilian ,
@Rustmilian@lemmy.world avatar

Yeah, I agree. I just ended up aliasing them.

Pantherina ,

Haha me too, didnt know the third one

Aganim ,

X11 is stuttery

Not for me

unsecure

Source?

unmaintaned

Received a number of commits just last week: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xorg

can't really be updated for new features that are pretty important in 2024 (VRR, HDR).

VRR is supported, at least on AMD: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Variable_refresh_rate

For HDR you have a point, afaik.

Wayland gets so many more of the basics so much better than X11 it's not even funny anymore.

And yet X11 works rock solid for me, while Wayland still crashes whenever I so much as look at it wrong. The amount of time and work I've lost because of Wayland crapping out on me isn't even funny anymore. On AMD by the way, so no blaming Nvidia's crappy Linux support.

Wayland will probably be the better product one day, but this day is not that day, at least not for every use-case. Great that it works fantastically for you, I genuinely advise you to keep using it, but keep in mind that 'mileage may vary' from person to person. Personally for now I'll stick to X11, as I need to get work done and unfortunately don't have time to muck around with Wayland's antics.

Pantherina ,

X11 is insecure. Any program can read any keystroke, any windows contents, can input anything anywhere etc.

The concept of separate apps basically doesnt exist.

WaterWaiver ,

Those security features are misleading.

A second app can already read all of your files, modify the first app, modify $PATH to replace your display server and do anything it wants as your user. Running wayland instead of Xorg provides no tangible benefits in security.

Pantherina ,

Yes and wayland is a puzzle piece of fixing that.

The other one is containerized apps that use a trusted system portal to get opt-in filesystem access to actually needed directories.

Rustmilian , (edited )
@Rustmilian@lemmy.world avatar

Not for me

https://preview.redd.it/2lsv819mtrb71.jpg?width=1080&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=d5d4772456944290202a1e5937d415b89a470208

Source?

The Xorg devs have literally stated as much themselves.

Received a number of commits just last week: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xorg

The vast majority of those commits are literally because of Xwayland.

VRR is supported, at least on AMD: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Variable_refresh_rate

Barely, it has numerous issues. The Wayland VRR implementations address much of those issues.

For HDR you have a point, afaik.

HDR literally can't be added to Xorg without rewriting the entire stack. They've been trying to get HDR working for something like around 10yrs before they gave up completely.
Wayland on the other hand has been designed from the ground up to be completely expandable, directly addressing the largest problem with Xorg, maintainability.

...at least not for every use-case... ...‘mileage may vary’ from person to person...

Yes, that's true. What would reduce edge cases however, is if you reported those bugs.

Wayland will probably be the better product one day...

That day is coming sooner then later.

Personally for now I’ll stick to X11...

That's fine, however you should switch as soon as it becomes viable to do so.

mlg ,
@mlg@lemmy.world avatar

10% FPS drop compared to X11 because of perfect frame requirements

X11 has literally never stuttered even on the hack that is WSL

The only time I have actually gotten X11 to crash was an unrelated kernel panic.

Also no one uses X11 networking by default lmao, its always X forward over SSH, that is definitely secure and still something wayland can't do.

feral_hedgehog ,
@feral_hedgehog@pawb.social avatar

Also no one uses X11 networking by default lmao, its always X forward over SSH, that is definitely secure and still something wayland can’t do.

Sure it can, with waypipe (like, for a while now...)
Just waypipe ssh <host> [command]

You can even run X apps over this through cage even when X11 forwarding is disabled by the host (because, you know, the security issues...)

MeanEYE ,
@MeanEYE@lemmy.world avatar

I see you have never used nVidia cards.

nexussapphire ,

It's still buttry smooth, you just have to downgrade back to x11 when the Nvidia drivers shit in there hands and claps.

MeanEYE ,
@MeanEYE@lemmy.world avatar

I was referring to crashing X11. That happens all the time with nVidia.

nexussapphire ,

I thought it was hyperbole, that sucks. If your using an Nvidia card from before 2014(kepler) those drivers aren't officially being supported anymore on linux. I'd recommend upgrading, maybe going used if your strapped for cash. 20series and later is getting a lot of love rn so id probably wouldn't go older than 20 series.

MeanEYE ,
@MeanEYE@lemmy.world avatar

Oh, I did upgrade, to AMD card. Since then 0 issues. :D

possiblylinux127 ,
@possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip avatar

Honestly it will never die but it will be a terrible idea to use it. I wouldn't be surprised if all of the major software drops support eventually

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