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Firefox saw an increase in users (~50% in Germany and ~30% in France) following Apple’s default browser changes in the EU, as did Brave.

Firefox spokesperson Christopher Hilton tells The Verge that the browser has seen a more than 50 percent jump in users in Germany and a nearly 30 percent increase in France.

Brave saw a similar increase in users after Apple started letting users choose their default browsers on iOS 17.4 in the EU last week.

cronosisma ,

without translation of the web pages, on ios it is still one of the worst web browsers I have ever tried, I only use it to send web pages on desktop

systemglitch ,

Apples users could not pick a default browser? Wtf?

MeanEYE ,
@MeanEYE@lemmy.world avatar

Am more surprised you expected this to be a thing. When it comes to Apple users choice is always what Apple chooses. Otherwise they might hurt themselves.

systemglitch ,

Everything I've ever used gave me a choice, so I just assumed it was universal. Now I know.

neutron ,

Haven't used an apple device personally. I remember struggling when I was trying to copy a file from a friends iphone. Everything was so different.

AnUnusualRelic ,
@AnUnusualRelic@lemmy.world avatar

I remember a long time ago, I worked with a lot of apple users and one had come to look at my unix machine. It had a then standard 3 button mouse which he found amazing. So I explained the whole copy and paste in X11 thing, and all the stuff you could do with several buttons depending on where you clicked.

He said that it was great but he regularly managed to miss the mouse button on his Mac so it probably wasn't for him.

And I suppose that's why apple does things that way.

baseless_discourse , (edited )

I learned the other day that macOS cannot turn mouse acceleration off without going into the terminal, but apparently macOS is user friendly and desktop linux is "only for developers".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCdcuJZux_g

And this is only the usability of a mac. On iPhone the usability is worse. One example, the quick action and notification shade are shown when you pull down from different side of the notch. My wife have used her iPhone 11 for many years, but still cannot remember which side is which.

My friend just has a virtual home button floating at all times, because this is easier than remembering which side gives you quick actions... LOL.

progettarsi ,

no one of the normies care

baseless_discourse ,

What do they care about?

progettarsi ,

install apps that work 100% of the times without needing to spend time on it, maybe changing accent color idk

uis ,
@uis@lemm.ee avatar

Gaymares care. I mean gamers.

Totaly not a gaymare

https://derpicdn.net/img/view/2021/11/21/2749471.jpg

systemglitch ,

Eww!

squirrelwithnut ,

Usability is not just about customizability. Compatibility and ease of troubleshooting and remedying issues are also majorly important, arguably more so than customization.

uis ,
@uis@lemm.ee avatar

Since when mouse acceleration in games is usable? Always-on mouse acceleration is unusability.

maniac ,
@maniac@lemmy.world avatar

Livakavi 🙌

SRo ,

It just works

FeelThePower ,

I have iOS 15.4 and I have a default browser that isn't Safari. This is more in reference to a new popup on first time bootup that asks you to pick a browser. You could pick a default one before this, you just had to go download it first like on a computer.

systemglitch ,

Okay that makes a lot more sense.

bitwolf ,

Historically, if you used a browser other than Safari, it was required to just be the UI, the renderer still has to be Safari.

Suavevillain ,
@Suavevillain@lemmy.world avatar

It looks people just needed to know what choices they had. I love Firefox.

Joelk111 ,

Yeah, I switch browsers like I change my clothes, and Firefox has been awesome compared to Brave, Edge, and other chromium browsers.

GustavoFring ,

I enjoy Firefox for the most part but unfortunately some websites just plain don't work on it so I end up using Brave still frequently.

Pantherina ,

Could someone add an image of this setup screen?

I dont get why Apple would actively advertise other browsers.

Android is completely open and people still use Chrome, as its the default and nothing advertizes Firefox (Mull) or others like Cromite, Brave, Vivaldi etc.

ricdeh ,
@ricdeh@lemmy.world avatar

At least for Android, you can pick your default browser from a selection in the installation when you first setup your phone. So no, Chrome is not necessarily the default on Android.

Pantherina ,

What? I never saw such a selection on setup, and I set up some Nokia Android, LineageOS, GrapheneOS and Google Pixel OS

RunawayFixer , (edited )

It's a recent eu (or eea) thing: https://www.android.com/choicescreen/dma/

Edit: that article seems to suggest that it's only just now a thing, but it has been here a few years already, from 2019: https://blog.google/around-the-globe/google-europe/presenting-search-app-and-browser-options-android-users-europe/:

Pantherina ,

Never saw this, maybe it doesnt show when the phone is reset?

RunawayFixer ,

No clue. Since google only wants to give this choice to users from the eea, there is going to have to be some country verification done. The 2019 blog post spoke about presenting the choice to users after an update.

Maybe the change since March 2024 is that that choice will be given during initial setup instead of later. But that change will likely take some more time to be implemented into updates from device manufacturers, I don't know how fast android updates follow these days.

Pantherina ,

I always buy used (by people too lazy or with weird believes that dont want to repair or use old phoned). I really suppose they dont show this on factory reset.

brlemworld ,

Chrome isn't necessarily the default. Samsung Browser is a thing

Pantherina ,

Lol right, people use whatever they get fed. I cant believe how people use phones as products, what came with it MUST be perfect

ForgotAboutDre ,

Samsung browser is just chrome in a jacket.

The biggest threat to an free and open internet is chrome. Chromium the base of chrome is open source and used by many other browsers as the engine (and most of the features). Everything else is clothing. Chrome, edge, brave, Vivaldi etc are all chrome in a mask.

Since chromium is developed and controlled by Google they have defacto control over how these browsers work, operate and display web content. This gives Google massive leverage in control how the web and it's standards develop.

There is only two other web browser. Firefox and safari. These are the only other operations cable of building and maintaing a modern web browser currently. Chrome took apples safari open source core WebKit to build chrome. They then forked it. Because Google chrome is so powerful, apple will need to follow to keep inline with Google. Google also pays them billions every year. Likewise Firefox is funded by Google through default search.

Google is trying to control the web. Use Firefox.

LemmyRefugee ,

I can’t add it as I already used it. There was a list of browsers and Safari was the last one.

Pantherina ,

Crazy, this is crazy. And extremely good!

TheGrandNagus ,

The list is randomised. Sometimes Safari is first, last, middle.

SRo ,

That's wrong, android actually advertises to switch the standard browser and search engine. But tbh only recently.

Pantherina ,

Maybe on setup but not on factory reset it seems.

I have ever only gotten factory reset phones... and one that was in arab but I could find the settings by comparing menus to grapheneos, pixel os is luckily close to AOSP

SRo ,

Nope, I got it just as an update on one phone; no resetting or fresh setup necessary.

Sl00k ,

From the Brave PR account:

https://programming.dev/pictrs/image/039a56cd-a7dd-4370-9a56-e3a57eca0722.jpeg

Also I believe it was legally required by the EU. List is randomized.

Pantherina ,

Fucking onion browser??? Damn

D_Air1 ,
@D_Air1@lemmy.ml avatar

So as it turns out, if you give people a choice. Some of them will pick something else.

thisbenzingring ,

I can't live without Firefox on my android phone

user224 ,
@user224@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

Unfortunately, I had to decide for Opera instead. It's much better for larger screens: It properly scales desktop websites and has desktop-style tab switcher.

Ghostalmedia , (edited )
@Ghostalmedia@lemmy.world avatar

Analytics nit:

30% of increase in daily installs ≠ 30% increase in users. It might lead to that, but only they maintain the increased install rates and maintain active users.

If I my sandwich shop sells 30% more sandwiches one day, that doesn’t mean I’m certain to make 30% more money at the end of the year. I might make more, I might make less.

Edit: also, this OS update has just rolled out. So this peak might last for a few days, then change once people are no longer getting the initial set up screen.

abhibeckert ,

30% of increase in daily installs ≠ 30% increase in users.

Yeah the lemmy headline is poorly written (the source article is pretty clear).

Still 30% is a substantial jump and will eventually turn into a bunch more money for FireFox - a good thing if you ask me.

If I my sandwich shop sells 30% more sandwiches one day, that doesn’t mean I’m certain to make 30% more money at the end of the year. I might make more, I might make less.

It costs money to make sandwiches. Mozilla doesn't even pay for bandwidth (Apple has that covered) - so the FireFox iOS app essentially only has overheads. Which means more users will be pure profit.

le_saucisson_masquay ,

Yes, and I’ll add that 30% is nothing is still nothing. Firefox and brave share on iOS are very small. This is great for customer choice but until there is real chromium and blink browser available there won’t be any real intensive to switch. Firefox already said they are not that interested, now it’s up to Google and then we can maybe have brave and other chromium clone.

A_Random_Idiot ,
@A_Random_Idiot@lemmy.world avatar

If I my sandwich shop sells 30% more sandwiches one day, that doesn’t mean I’m certain to make 30% more money at the end of the year. I might make more, I might make less.

That analogy only works if you buy the sandwich once, and it stays in your house forever no matter how much you eat it.

18_24_61_b_17_17_4 ,
@18_24_61_b_17_17_4@lemmy.world avatar

I saw you posted this in the Firefox community as well. Why did you mention Brave in the title here but not there?

BearOfaTime ,

Because that's the Firefox community?

kamenlady ,
@kamenlady@lemmy.world avatar

Ikr? The last known lemming that mentioned Brave over there, was never read again.

XTL ,

If they didn't make it clear that brave is a series scam company, deservedly.

romp_2_door ,

@Mistral do you think these new users will stick around?

Mistral Bot ,

Hello romp_2_door from lemmy.world, this is Mistral from lemmings.world.

It's hard to predict with certainty whether new users will stick around or not. This can depend on a variety of factors such as their interests, the community engagement, the quality of content, and their overall experience on the platform.

However, making the community welcoming, engaging, and supportive can certainly increase the likelihood of new users staying. It's also important to continually provide valuable and interesting content related to technology to keep them engaged.

What are your thoughts on this? Have you noticed any patterns or factors that seem to influence whether new users stay or leave?

inlandempire ,
@inlandempire@jlai.lu avatar

Wake me up when ai is able to discern context, and do more than just spew out words that go well after another 😴

RobotToaster ,
@RobotToaster@mander.xyz avatar

These bots sound like politicians, lol

rambaroo ,

That last paragraph lol. "Please feed me more info because I'm actually dumb AF and can't tell what you're talking about"

PixelAlchemist ,

Aren’t they all still WebKit under the hood though? Until they allow other web engines this is still just the illusion of choice.

darkevilmac ,
@darkevilmac@lemmy.zip avatar

I believe part of the DMA means that they're allowed to use their own engines. Whether they have that ready right now I'm not sure, but I'm sure it's in the works.

cybersandwich ,

I thought Firefox said that they were going to have to write two different browsers so they weren't going to.

bassomitron ,

Why would they? They already have a Mac build, I can't imagine it'd be that huge of a difference, but maybe iOS is a lot more different than I realize.

dustyData ,

Despite Apple's lies, iOS and macOS are still pretty different beasts with their own quirks. And iOS is way more tightly locked down and under Apple's thumb than macs.

bassomitron ,

I suppose I'm not surprised. Typical Apple shenanigans.

abhibeckert , (edited )

Uh, no they're not. They have the core operating system.

The only real difference is the security model (as you say, tightly locked down), but MacOS has been gradually adopting a lot of that over time. For example / used to be an ordinary volume - these days it's mounted read only and can't be written to even with sudo. iOS has always been like that.

They are different operating systems, but only because it's easier to make a change on one of them, then port that change to the other one later. Possibly years later. In general, they're pretty close. The main difference is the hardware, not the operating system.

AProfessional ,

The new browser option iOS exposed is a very strict and limiting custom API to make a browser engine. It’s purposefully obtuse to be terrible but compliant.

rambaroo ,

They should be fined for this too. Deliberately obfuscating the solution isn't compliance.

abhibeckert ,

The APIs are similar but the hardware requires a different appraoch.

For example touch screen input is very different to mouse input - you need to decifer imprecise user input... and then provide precise input to webpages that are designed assuming the user has a mouse. There are touch APIs on the web, but developers tend not to use those APIs because dealing with imprecise input sucks. For example press a link with your thumb, it will highlight. Lift your thumb, it will go to the link. But if you press, then move your thumb, then release... instead of clicking the link it scrolls the page. Unless you move only a little bit - then it does click...

And the only way to get "all day" battery life out of a 10Wh battery is by keeping the CPU powered off most of the day. Figuring out how to maintain the current state of the webpage, so it can be restored if the CPU is powered off and back on again, without breaking things like JavaScript timers/etc.

FireFox has solved those issues (and others) on Android. But while Android has similar hardware, that operating system is nothing like iOS.

All the work to get Gecko working on Android made sense back int he day, when Android didn't have a good rendering engine. It would have also made sense back in the early days of the iPhone when WebKit was nowhere near as good as it is now. But today, when someone else has already figured out solutions to every problem? Is it worth reinventing all those wheels?

Ghostalmedia ,
@Ghostalmedia@lemmy.world avatar

They are still exploring options. They’ve told the press that all the iOS gecko work is still being researched.

https://www.theregister.com/2023/02/07/mozilla_google_apple_webkit/

BearOfaTime ,

You could already run Webkit Firefox on iOS - I have for years - it's how I keep tabs synced between devices

I'm pretty sure this is Firefox with Gecko (is gecko still the engine? My memory ain't workin too great right now).

AProfessional ,

iOS shows a dialog for choosing a browser option in the EU now. Nothing to do with engines.

abhibeckert ,

Apple does allow other engines in Europe. Wether or not FireFox chooses to create one remains to be seen.

There's nothing wrong with WebKit, so not much incentive for FireFox to do all that work.

Scrollone ,

There's nothing wrong with WebKit

Weeeeeeelllll... actually yes, because Chrome is based on an ancient WebKit version, and Firefox is the only independent remaining browser.

aeronmelon ,

Browsers can now run their own rendering engines, which are sandboxed at the app level.

System-level HTML, like web apps on the home screen, are still using WebKit.

Which is how it should have been from the start.

sunbeam60 ,

Yes they can but for now they are all still using WebKit.

IamAnonymous ,

So are we allowed to use all extensions on Firefox? Is it same as Firefox on Andriod?

aeronmelon ,

Mozilla would have to update the iOS app to both run their engine and accept their plugins.

But it will never be like the Android app because the iOS app will still be sandboxed and not allowed to run code outside of itself.

KingThrillgore ,
@KingThrillgore@lemmy.ml avatar

Firefox uses Gecko and someday, it will use Servo. Brave uses Blink, which is Google's WebKit fork.

PixelAlchemist ,

*on desktop

uis ,
@uis@lemm.ee avatar

Aren't they all KHTML under the hood? Yes, they are. Except firefox.

shortwavesurfer ,

But.... But... But... We are Apple and we know best. Our users don't want choices!

vodkasolution ,
@vodkasolution@feddit.it avatar
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