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jh29a ,

what i've learned is that I'd much rather live in this echo chamber with windows to the outside than in another echo chamber

whodoctor11 , (edited )
@whodoctor11@lemmy.ml avatar

Yet, electric trains are a better alternative to most people's transport.

CC BY-NC-SA 4.0

Andromxda ,
@Andromxda@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

There's definitely no bias at all here /s

StaySquared ,

lol.. in the Bay (Northern California), E-Bikes would be left abandoned on the side walks and parking lots. I never seen the organization that provides these e-bikes have someone or a team drive around and pick them up..

All I assume is that the e-bikes are used up until their battery is dead and they're left abandoned right on the spot. I assume the battery has enough life in it still to be located and picked up and placed back into their charging stations.

Edit: Wait not e-bikes, e-scooters.

mondoman712 OP ,

You could just delete your comment when you realise it isn't actually relevant, instead of just throwing the edit on at the end.

HelixDab2 ,

What, the NYT is demonizing bicycles?

Oh, wait.

E-bikes.

Right.

Because I guess pedaling is too hard for people that live in one of the flattest cities in the world.

mondoman712 OP ,

Because I guess pedaling is too hard for people that live in one of the flattest cities in the world.

Some people, yeah. They might have a longer distance to ride, they might have disability, or just not be that fit. There's no problem with that.

HelixDab2 ,

I used to do 14 miles one way in Chicago, year 'round. (I stopped because I moved to Georgia, and now my commute involves about 2000' of elevation difference, which is likely around 4000' of elevation change.) If you're not fit, well, that's a pretty good reason to start riding then, isn't it? NYC also has a fantastic public transit system, one of, if not the best in the US, and it's readily accessible by people with disabilities. Much more so than an electric bicycle.

lepinkainen ,

I don’t want the first thing I do at the office be a shower.

E-bikes let me control the amount of sweat, while still giving me a cardio workout.

HelixDab2 ,

It's really not a big deal. You just shower before you leave, and have clean clothes in your bag.

Seriously. Hundreds of thousands of people do this every day.

lepinkainen ,

Shower before I leave where? I arrive at the office covered in sweat. My clothes completely soaked.

Then I need to shower, change and still haven’t clocked in.

HelixDab2 ,

Shower before you leave home, duh. And then change into the clean work clothes in your bag--the one I said you should carry--once you get to work.

Since this is apparently difficult, I'll break it down.

  1. Wake up, get coffee. Maybe breakfast if you eat in the morning.

  2. Pack your work clothes in a messenger bag (I used a Chrome Kremlin for a decade, but ended up switching to a Trash Bag). Pack lunch if you want to; make sure lunch is in a leak-proof container.

  3. Shower. Change into cycling clothes appropriate for the weather.

  4. Carry your bike down three flights of stairs to the street.

  5. Ride to work.

  6. Lock bike to a heavy, immobile, hard to destroy object (I was partial to light poles when there wasn't a city rack available; I used a Kryptonite Evolution chain and lock for about a decade with zero bike thefts.)

  7. Change into work clothes and shoes. Comb hair again to minimize helmet hair.

  8. Stow backpack under desk, get to work.

TubularTittyFrog ,

you are trying to reason with someone who is operating on the belief that cycling to work a few miles will make them sweat 5L or something.

give up.

TubularTittyFrog ,

if you got fitter you wouldn't sweat.

i bike 5 miles to work, year round, freezing winter and hot summer. i never sweat unless it's like 90 and high humidity. that's a handful of days per year.

lepinkainen ,

I've competed at a country level in martial arts. I'm not unfit.

It's a genetic thing, I sweat like crazy and it takes a long time for me to cool down after I get a good sweat going. Even if I shower, I still keep sweating for a good 30 minutes.

mondoman712 OP ,

New York's public transport is heavily focused on getting people in and out of Manhattan. If you're going between the other boroughs it can be very lacking. A bike can save you a lot of time in certain cases.

If you're not fit, an ebike is a great way to get started because it allows you to start cycling for your commute before you're at the fitness level needed.

HelixDab2 ,

In my experience in Chicago, a bike was almost always faster than public transit, period. Even before I was fit, when it was painful to ride my bike in to school, it was faster than the train during rush hour.

If you're not fit [...]

...Then riding an e-bike isn't going to make you fit, because you aren't going to pedal it. An e-bike isn't going to make you fit, any more than my Triumph Speed Triple is making me fit. Sure, I'm still on two wheels, but I'm not getting any physical fitness out of it.

I was--briefly--a personal trainer. I saw a lot of people avoiding putting in the work using almost every excuse they could. People that tried to ease themselves into getting fit were still going easy months later. The only people that made progress were the people willing to do the work, even when it was difficult and uncomfortable. For myself, I don't like making excuses for people that won't put in the effort, and that's pretty much everyone that uses e-bikes. If you want a motorcycle, just do that, pay for insurance, and obey the rules of the road, rather than riding on sidewalks and bike paths while putting in zero effort.

KevinMarks ,
@KevinMarks@xoxo.zone avatar

@HelixDab2 @mondoman712 you're wrong. An actual ebike, with assist rather than a throttle really does get you to exercise because you are pedalling, but you're not adversely affected when going uphill. It's cycling, it burns calories, but it doesn't have the tiring bits.

mondoman712 OP ,

The term ebike generally refers to a bike with pedal assist, not an electric motorcycle. Pedal assist means you are still exercising and you can set the level of assist you want.

HelixDab2 ,

Many--most of the ones that I see in Atlanta--do not require any pedaling at all. They're functionally speed-controlled electric motorcycles that people ride on sidewalks.

So no, most people aren't exercising, any more than they're exercising on electric scooters.

mondoman712 OP ,

Again, you're talking about something different. I'm talking about electric pedal assist bicycles (often called an ebike), not electric mopeds.

TubularTittyFrog ,

most people however, are straight up lazy.

mondoman712 OP ,

IMO if you're riding a bike, even if it has pedal assist, you're not lazy.

But even if that is the case, what's wrong with that? Is it not better to have these "lazy" people on ebikes than in cars?

PiratePanPan ,

https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/ff5c1409-5cb0-430b-a7c1-e90b97301864.png
https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/cb5c1b4a-1bbf-4bcc-b03b-fc7ead4fb59e.png

biddy ,

Why are you gatekeeping? Some people only want transportation, not a workout. Ebikes are infinitely better than cars in every way.

HelixDab2 ,

Why are you gatekeeping cars then? Some people only want transportation where they don't get soaked in the rain, or cold in the winter.

biddy ,

Do I really need to repeat every reason why cars suck?. Just check everything else in this community.

Relevant for this conversion is that driving a car is far less exercise than even an ebike, and that generally people riding any kind of bikes creates a positive feedback loop where others feel more comfortable, cities build infrastructure, ect.

HelixDab2 ,

All those same things apply when you compare actual bicycles to e-bike though. An e-bike is a half-measure, at best.

biddy ,

Let's say that for the same journey, an ebike is a half as much exercise as a pedal bike(or whatever you want, the actual number isn't important). A car journey is 0 exercise, it's infinitely worse. Going from a car journey to an ebike journey is infinite times more exercise, going from an ebike journey to a pedal bike is twice as much exercise.

By gatekeeping you're stopping people from making smaller improvements because they aren't going all the way

pop ,

With ICE, you control the population by controlling the oil. Like rest of the world has to eat up price raise without much retaliation, what else you're going to do, you have to work and you depend on oil. But since China is the major producer of batteries and EVs, the nations that dictate the policies are losing that control.

So US does what it does best, propagandize the masses. Mass produced solar panels are bad, EVs are unreliable, e-bikes are a menace.

The world powers will turn the world to ruins if it serves their interests.

fine_sandy_bottom ,

God how do you get out of bed every day.

Jiggle_Physics ,

A lot of people are able to recognize the shit side of the world and be strong enough to not fall apart because of it.

fine_sandy_bottom ,

What a silly thing to say.

Every man woman and child thinks they understand how the world works, yet we are all of us burdened by misconceptions.

Jiggle_Physics , (edited )

If you don't think major media outlets run propaganda to protect the interests of the countries they work in, and the people they work for, I have bad news for you.

fine_sandy_bottom ,

Of course they do, but that doesn't mean that every bat shit crazy conspiracy theory has any credibility.

In this case, ebikes and scooters are controversial. Controversy generates engagement. Engagement sells ads. End of.

Jiggle_Physics ,

And choosing selling ads vs being a decent news company and having good, balanced, reporting they nefariously choose to take profit by manufacturing controversy. They, as in the the news in general, also have a history of coming to the defense of the oil industry, and shitting on anything in competition to it, because it is a vital venue for US imperialism, or economic influence, as they might say. It has proven so intentional that they call everything they say on this subject into question. You are free to feel that these economic interests don't play a significant factor in the broader operations of why they release the articles they do, but that doesn't mean it isn't that way.

JasonDJ ,

America held the printing press invention dear to the heart. It was the best way to manufacture and distribute propaganda.

News is a profit driven industry and it's written by the sponsors. This is as true for NYT as it is for Alex Jones. The sooner people realize this the sooner we can dig ourselves out of this whole mess.

fine_sandy_bottom ,

Well yeah, NYT is profit driven, there's no nefarious intent.

JasonDJ ,

Yes, this is why all news should be treated as "Trust but verify". And if that verification consistently turns up as bunk, that's a bad news.

Problem is nearly everybody is bad news. It's always either lying through omission, single-sided story telling, assumed guilt, or just straight up misinformation.

Jiggle_Physics ,

Being driven by profit is not mutually exclusive to being malicious. Taking greed over things like truth, better quality of life, life, etc. has long been considered a nefarious thing to do.

Zoift ,
@Zoift@hexbear.net avatar

If a news story comes along that could interfere with the profit of the owners of the NYT, what do you think their intent would be?

uis ,
@uis@lemm.ee avatar

To be fair electric cars are still cars. Fuck them.

FireRetardant ,

They really aren't that much better for the planet compared to ICE and when compared to transit or active transport they really are the least effecient "green" option.

Its not just about reducing carbon, we should be trying to reduce overall energy usage and focus on effecient systems.

Everyone driving their electric SUV to park in a sea of pavement is not effecient land or energy use.

Tak , (edited )
@Tak@lemmy.ml avatar

There are select instances where they are a greener option than transit. If you live in rural areas with really low density it is often cheaper and greener to not build mass transit systems there. But I'm really just splitting hairs here.

uis ,
@uis@lemm.ee avatar

You mean using same road cars would use for buses, while optionally removing extra lanes, is less green and cheap than building and maintaining 18-lane monstrosities in the middle of nowhere?

Tak ,
@Tak@lemmy.ml avatar

18 lane monstrosities are connections between the dense cities/burbs. We're talking two lane highways here, nobody builds an 18 lane freeway to a town with 50 people in the middle of nowhere. At best they will build a freeway THROUGH the middle of nowhere but the nowhere wasn't the purpose of the freeway, the connection to another major city was.

uis ,
@uis@lemm.ee avatar

18 lane monstrosities are connections between the dense cities/burbs.

All those 18 lanes are built ONLY because of cars.

Tak ,
@Tak@lemmy.ml avatar

And there are fewer cars per km in rural areas. Do you think the dirt owns cars?

uis , (edited )
@uis@lemm.ee avatar

What? Cars per length? What is this unit of? Some wierd linear density? I'm saying that that 18-lane abominations are built only for no other reason than driving cars. You say that car infrastructure is cheap, especially in rural areas, but you seem to ignore(intentionally or not) most expensive and destructive part of it. Which happens to go through rural areas. Or you can name abomination that is purely within city limits?

And public transit just doesn't need this abomination. Public transit works fine even with one lane per direction. Or track if we are talking about trains.

Tak ,
@Tak@lemmy.ml avatar

That's not even what I said. Why talk to people if you have no intent of actually listening? Talk about an unpleasant person to talk to.

uis , (edited )
@uis@lemm.ee avatar

And there are fewer cars per km in rural areas.

You said sentence that has no clear meaning. Per km of what? Per average distance between houses? Per average distance those cars travel? Or you want to say rural areas require more car infrastructure per car? If so, then this is close to what I was trying to say.

I reread entire convo. This started from

If you live in rural areas with really low density it is often cheaper and greener to not build mass transit systems there.

And if you are not the only person living in that area, then public transport WILL be greener. One car for two people is more efficient than two cars for two people, one car for four people is more efficient and one minivan for eight people is more efficient than two cars for four people. And minivan is just few steps awa from bus.

And again, less total amount of cars means less car infrastructure needs to be built and maintained, which means less money spent.

LovesTha ,
@LovesTha@floss.social avatar

@Tak @FireRetardant Yes, when a bus route will result in a larger vehicle with 1 occupant they are bad.

That is a very small % of passenger mileage.

Tak ,
@Tak@lemmy.ml avatar

Ideally busses shouldn't even be used in situations like that as rail is significantly more efficient but a train wouldn't want to slow for one passenger either.

LovesTha ,
@LovesTha@floss.social avatar

@Tak Or build stations and tracks where so few people will use them.

Building more tracks for everything would be good, but still not an answer for everything.

A world where we only had trains and push bikes would be nice, but not likely to happen.

figstick ,
@figstick@mas.to avatar

@LovesTha @Tak
People act like you need a huge population to have rail, but moves people around smaller towns just fine by rail.

LovesTha ,
@LovesTha@floss.social avatar

@figstick @Tak you probably need a density of more than 1 person per square km. That is where most people live. It is great for most people. Maybe even nearly everyone.

But for the last 0.1% something else is needed.

But even then it might be better to have personal rail vehicles on private tracks (the same tracks the farm should be using for it's produce.

Thcdenton ,

No NYC is a nightmare because it's NYC

mondoman712 OP ,

God forbid people want to make their city better.

Thcdenton ,

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/c8a42b48-145b-4a9a-a7eb-6468b0d247fd.jpeg

Fin ,

the fuck? how do you hate on e-bikes but are okay with e-cars?

lemmy_get_my_coat ,

Because they're e-diots

luciferofastora ,

E-diots, I like that term

aspensmonster ,
@aspensmonster@lemmygrad.ml avatar

The companies hawking e-cars have much larger advertising accounts with NYT than those hawking e-bikes.

Professorozone ,

I love my e-bike.

OsrsNeedsF2P ,

I love that you ride one! Stay safe ❤️

Professorozone ,

Thank you kind person of the Internet. I will do my best.

Disaster ,

NYC's cyclists (of whom I know many) need to follow traffic laws.

Those laws are there because people need to act predictably on the street. When a red light becomes a mere suggestion for cyclists, motorists eventually start treating them as such as well. Monkey see, monkey do.

...and getting t-boned by some douchecanoe driving a car when you have the light is commonly fatal for a cyclist.

There was an uptick in utterly shitty driving from 2019 onwards in NYC, and the police stopped all enforcement actions even in egregious cases... then the roads became, and largely remain, a free-for-all. I've seen some attempts recently to start clearing the mess up, but too often NYPD are ignoring these dangerous road users... or hiding their license plates and being offenders themselves.

...and this is before you're fighting for space in a the bikelane with some drunk+stoned asshole on a moped.

I'm fully in favor of delivery professionals being required to have a license and display it at all times when on the clock. They should also be required to have specific insurance, and a highly visible personal identifier when working. They should also get automatic Union representation and a living wage.

Anything more powerful than a class-C e-bike should have a license plate, and if not it gets taken and destroyed, or auctioned to a more responsible owner. Sales of these vehicles without a registration needs to be illegal.
Anything more powerful than a class-C e-bike found in a bike lane should be impounded on the spot.
Running a stop sign or a red light should get you a ticket, regardless of what wheels you're on.
Going the wrong way down a one way street should get you a ticket.

It doesn't help that NYC doesn't have the space and largely practices "maximum-conflict" street design... but that's just the slow, shitty entropic action of self-serving interests pushing communities around, and they react very slowly. It takes (usually multiple) fatalities for anyone to wake up and actually do anything about it.

Also wear a damned helmet.

Olgratin_Magmatoe ,

The solution for large scale behavioral problems isn't telling loads of people to do better, it's systemic change, and in this case that means infrastructure for safe biking. That includes traffic calming measures, separated and protected bike lanes, regulation to reign in vehicle sizes and weight, etc.

kunaltyagi ,

The OP is correct wrt powerful e bikes sharing space with pedestrians and normal bikes.

They are a different beast, heavier and noisier. They have much higher speed limit, and require less effort (some models need no pedal power) to travel. This, alongside the rise of delivery services, encourages people to overspeed (more than 20mph).

15mph is roughly the limit of what makes bicycles safe for mixing with pedestrians, but beyond this speed, they aren't that different from a motorbike in terms of road design considerations.

At least they are better than cars and SUVs

Olgratin_Magmatoe ,

For sure, that is still a big part of this.

But a blanket statement pointing to cyclists as the source of the problem is just ridiculous.

makeshiftreaper ,

This is a classic for a reason. We make everything as inhospitable for bikers as we can and when they work around it somehow they're the bad guys

ProgrammingSocks ,

Do you ever wonder why you never see videos of people flying down the street and weaving through traffic in the Netherlands?

Infrastructure is your answer.

Disaster ,

Respect and discipline AND infrastructure is the answer.

Facebones ,

[Thread, post or comment was deleted by the author]

    •
    fusionsaint ,

    Washington Post.

    cobra89 ,

    Uhh I think you're thinking of The Washington Post.

    Facebones ,

    Oh is it? Well, fuck. 🤣 NYT has been pretty one sided on certain things so I must've mixed em up

    HawlSera ,

    Dude fuck e-bikes too, one of my closest friends was killed on one of those things, I hate cars too (especially the panel van that killed him), but let's not pretend e-bikes are in anyway safe

    queermunist ,
    @queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

    A van would have killed him on a regular bike too?

    Sounds like the problem wasn't the e-bike.

    delirious_owl ,
    @delirious_owl@discuss.online avatar

    Usually vans don't ride on sidewalks.

    queermunist ,
    @queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

    Bicycles aren't supposed to be on sidewalks either, that's how pedestrians get hit.

    The problem is motorist thinking they own the fucking road.

    delirious_owl ,
    @delirious_owl@discuss.online avatar

    And motorists thinking they own the sidewalk.

    mondoman712 OP ,

    I'm sorry about your friend but ebikes are so much safer than cars.

    delirious_owl ,
    @delirious_owl@discuss.online avatar

    Can we not criticize cars and also irresponsible e-bike riders.

    Both should follow traffic laws and yield to peds.

    queue ,
    @queue@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    If the panel van hit and killed them, it would have killed them:

    • Walking
    • Scootering
    • Biking
    • Roller Blading
    • Anything that isn't a metal box on wheels
    HawlSera ,

    Fair enough

    ProgrammingSocks ,

    I'm sorry for your loss. It's worth considering that we are very conditioned to passive language with these events, but your friend was not "hit on his e-bike", he was killed by the van driver. He was not at fault, the van was.

    Sam_Bass ,

    Mass transit probaby has less overhead

    Duamerthrax ,

    Compared to? Cars? Yes, absolutely.

    To e-bikes? Hard to tell, but it's easier to roll out e-bikes and repaint traffic lines then it is to install new track and e-bikes aren't tied to a schedule.

    Sam_Bass ,

    How many charging stations will be available? At what cost? And if they are fought against by cities fully invested in.mass transit, who covers the costs to clear that up?

    Duamerthrax ,

    How many charging stations will be available? At what cost?

    The fuck are those questions? You want a detailed roll out plan for a hypothetical city? No know I can't answer that question with any useful details. It's going to be different for every city, but as many as necessary.

    And if they are fought against by cities fully invested in.mass transit

    Why would a city that already has mass transit plans need a full on e-bike plan? But even with busses and trains, limited e-bikes can still be useful for people who can't work on a schedule, the mass transit path is inconvenient, or live far enough away from the bus/train stations and want to e-bike to them.

    who covers the costs to clear that up?

    The fuck is this? E-bikes aren't forever. The bikes and charging stations require maintenance and repair. If you want to discontinue them, just come up with a sunsetting plan. Who pays for them? Either the state via taxes or a private entity. Citibike is already planning e-bike rollout. Just follow that model.

    Sam_Bass , (edited )

    Fair enough. But all of that does require a significant investment, like you said, that will vary by location. Mass transit being already deployed has an advantage over new services like ebikes mainly due to build-out times and costs. Like any new tech, adoption is dependent on ease of access and use. Many users may find ebikes preferable if they can get to one easily and cheaply, but if the lifespan is cut short that ease is negated. There was a story a couple years ago about an ebike company that folded because there was insufficient usage. Cant remember which city it happened in but it likely soured that market for any future attempts.

    CoolerOpposide ,
    @CoolerOpposide@hexbear.net avatar

    Having an ebike in New York is what having a car in any other major American city is supposed to work like (but can’t because car-centric infrastructure is terrible city design)

    Nothing is more than 30 minutes from me. There’s parking everywhere. Only requires low cost infrastructure to be usable. Traffic jams are infrequent and short-lived. Ownership and fuel costs are low. Environmentally friendly. Quiet. Great for recreation. Is very safe for the user and pedestrians.

    commiewithoutorgans ,
    @commiewithoutorgans@hexbear.net avatar

    Is bike theft not a major issue in New York It's the main thing keeping me from getting one. Bikes get stolen so frequently that I prefer my 100 buck bike, much more easily replaced.

    CoolerOpposide ,
    @CoolerOpposide@hexbear.net avatar

    Not as major as most news outlets make it out to be. I try not to lock my bike outside if I can avoid it, but I can lock it indoors both at work and at my apartment

    commiewithoutorgans ,
    @commiewithoutorgans@hexbear.net avatar

    Yeah I should say, I'm not worried about theft as a phenomenon, I just wouldn't have an electric bike outside considering I don't earn enough to lose something like that. Theft is a tragic symptom but I also prefer not to be affected by it lol

    But smart, having inside places is cool. Most places I go and bike to wouldn't have that

    vividspecter ,

    You can actually buy bike insurance if you are particularly worried. And some home/renters insurance includes protection against bike theft.

    Whether the yearly cost of it plus the deductible ends up being higher than just replacing it is the gamble you always take with insurance, however.

    driving_crooner , (edited )
    @driving_crooner@lemmy.eco.br avatar

    I live in São Paulo and have everything on a 30-40 minutes ride, but because my bike insurance demands a proper bike rack or the policy is null, I have a lot of problems with the parking part. Like supermarkets, bakeries, pharmacies and others always have 2-5 cars parking space, but is extremely rare finding one of those with a proper bike rack.

    micnd90 ,

    https://hexbear.net/pictrs/image/dd6a375a-8211-4212-a577-4272a6607340.png

    Elijah Orlandi makes deliveries for Grubhub in the evening after his 9-to-5 job.

    “There are scenarios where people have the right to be upset,” said Orlandi, who lives in the Bronx and has been making e-bike deliveries for Grubhub — in addition to his 9-to-5 job — since October. He has seen e-bike riders “swerving in between cars and all that kind of stuff.” But Orlandi is also hoping for compassion. “People got to understand, we’re working,” he said. Delivery apps, he noted, keep track of how quickly workers make their drop-offs — and ding them if they take too long. “Sometimes you’ll be going somewhere and Grubhub will send you another order, and then no matter what you do, you’re going to be late,” he said. “So that’s why you’ll see a lot of people rushing.”

    Surely the problem here this dude's e-bike. Not that people need to do gig job on top of 9-5 work day, unaffordable rent, inflation, and exploitative gig economy platform

    CoolerOpposide ,
    @CoolerOpposide@hexbear.net avatar

    Yeah I was reading that and I’m like… ok so what does this have to do with an e-bike? This is just a condemnation of the gig economy. One can only assume that they are implying that none of these problems would exist if this dude was using a car, but they’d actually be 10x worse if he was

    luciferofastora ,

    How dare he zip past the congestion with a low-density vehicle instead of contributing to it, wasting fuel (whatever type) and making things worse for everyone like a proper, respectable, carbrained citizen?

    Almost as bad as subways, I tell you! Those bastards take a whole chunk of people past the traffic at once, the audacity 😤

    Sarcasm aside, I do think people need this angle pointed out to them: Low-density transport options for those where they make sense help those for whom it doesn't. The more short-range traffic happens on bikes, in busses and (light) rail, the more space there will be on the streets.

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