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Custoslibera ,

Tax should pay for healthcare of all citizens.

Why am I paying tax if I still have to pay to see a doctor?

bigFab ,

I used to be that guy the first 28 years of my life. Then I realized many so called socialist gvt are backed up by the biggest monopolies, which in turn grow freely thanks to socialist unbalanced rules of competitiveness.

It's cool to think socialist. It's not cool to feed the monopoly.

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

What are you genuinely talking about? What are Socialist unbalanced rules of competitiveness?

Maggoty ,

Usually they refer to the government corporations.

Zuberi OP ,

Good thing America doesn't have any monopolies under capitalism

Custoslibera ,

What a relief!

SpezBroughtMeHere ,

Why is the proposed solution always to just pay people more and not just make things cost less? The only reason I can find is that making things cost less doesn't provide a scapegoat for everybody to rally behind, even though it would be more effective.

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

The solution isn't either, it's to collectively own the Means of Production.

Zuberi OP ,

Or just give people food. Where tf u bringing up cost of goods from?

Maggoty ,

Because the stock market is the economy as far as our leaders are concerned. And they decided that anything other than green line go up is abhorrent.

PumpkinSkink ,

Money is a means of determining the distribution of resources. It doesn't matter if stuff costs less or if people make more money, what matters is that nessecities, at a minimum, are more equitably distributed. You can make that end goal take different forms. Money is a little awkward for that end because you use money to purchase both food and nice cars.

nigh7y ,

When I feed the poor, they call me a saint, but when I ask why the poor are hungry, they call me a communist. - Hélder Câmara, an archbishop

ComradeR ,

Hélder Câmara ❤️

Júlio Lancellotti ❤️

MacNCheezus ,
@MacNCheezus@lemmy.today avatar

Câmara identified himself as a socialist and not as a Marxist, and while disagreeing with , had Marxist sympathies. In the Fallaci interview, he stated, "My socialism is special, it's a socialism that respects the human person and goes back to the Gospels. My socialism is justice." He said, concerning Marx, that while he disagreed with his conclusions, he agreed with his analysis of the capitalist society.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A9lder_C%C3%A2mara#Views

boatsnhos931 ,

If you get hung in a rut, better lock them hubs in

Mahonia ,

This is kind of an aside but it's always weird looking at caricatures of poverty from the 90s and earlier, where people live in modest homes they seem to own. Or people living alone in plain apartments in places like New York.

A six-figure salary in so many cities means that you can probably rent a decent apartment and never own anything. It's just so obvious that this system isn't working.

DragonTypeWyvern ,

If there's one thing Hollywood is known for it's accurate depictions of the housing market.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

You're right, but on the other hand, no one in the 1980s watched Married With Children and thought, "a shoe salesman? With a house? How absurd!" Because houses were affordable.

problematicPanther ,
@problematicPanther@lemmy.world avatar

housing used to be affordable. I've seen the value of the modest house i grew up in increase in value after my parents sold it so much that I can't afford to even think about buying it now that i'm the age they were when they bought it. and it looks like the new owners have let it go to shit.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Exactly. People did talk about how homes on TV in the 1980s were unreasonably large, but the idea that Al Bundy's family or Roseanne's family couldn't have a house at all was not even one people considered. Because of course you could afford a house.

bouh ,

Also, you could afford a house at this time with only one person working in the couple. The wife usually stayed at home until they progressively all went to work.

umbrella ,
@umbrella@lemmy.ml avatar

as somewhat of a 'commie' yea kinda, but again its crazy that someone who toils away at work for the better part of his life and earns a salary for his contribution to society will sometimes have to be hungry or homeless. on average you do all that and are at least always struggling for money come on.

considering we have smartphones, rockets and AI, at this point im surprised some people are not considering alternatives.

angrytoadnoises ,
@angrytoadnoises@lemmygrad.ml avatar

'Cuz you ain't been doin nothin', if you ain't been called a red, if you've marched or agitated, then you're bound to hear it said...

jaybone ,

What is Lemmy.ml’s perception of Lemmy.world for the shoutout?

ThatWeirdGuy1001 ,
@ThatWeirdGuy1001@lemmy.world avatar

From what I've seen lemmy.ml is basically hexbear lite

So anyone to the right of them is literal Nazis

root_beer , (edited )

Pragmatism and nuance are for bigots and fascists, vote third party

[edit] /s, christ-a-mighty

ThatWeirdGuy1001 ,
@ThatWeirdGuy1001@lemmy.world avatar

nuance is for fascists

Fuck no wonder no one likes y'all lmfao there's plenty of nuanced details in everything without it being fascist or bigotry

davel ,
@davel@lemmy.ml avatar

brainworms

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

Pretty sure the general attitude toward .world is that the users tend to be liberals, especially those who came from Reddit during the API fiasco. Generally people who mean well but probably haven't engaged with the Linux, FOSS, Privacy, Anarchist, Socialist, or Communist communities before coming to Lemmy.

.ml itself is generally more leftist, a common misconception is that there are only Marxist-Leninists on .ml, when there are tons of Anarchists and Socialists as well, just much fewer liberals.

Where Hexbear is a big-tent "dirt bag left" server, and lemmygrad is an explicitly Marxist-Leninist-Maoist server, .ml is actually just focused on FOSS and privacy, and as such tends to attract more leftists than .world.

An example of the differences between .world and .ml I have noticed are on the recent death sentence for the KyoAni mass murderer posts. On the .world version, most seemed celebratory of the death sentence, while on .ml most were deeply saddened by the event but held the belief that the death penalty is wrong fundamentally, and that instead it should've been life in prison.

Just my 2 cents as a .ml user.

What083329420 ,

Sounds very american to me. Its very normal here to at least try take care of the less fortunate.

gAlienLifeform ,
@gAlienLifeform@lemmy.world avatar

Well, so long as they're not migrants anyway

mydude ,

When you are to the left of someone, they always call you right-wing... Never fails...

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

I have never been called right wing, and I'm just about as far left as they come.

mydude ,

I think the down-votes illustrates my point exactly.

I'm pro expression of freedom, full bodily automony (my body, my choice), anti censorship, reign in corporate power, higher top marginal tax, ending foreign wars (inc Ukraine), diplomacy with every government (inc the ones labeled terrorists. Remember; Nelson Mandela was also labeled a terrorist), tax included high education, tax included healthcare, more money to public transport.

Well thats some of it, and most of the first points are traditional left-wing issues, but in todays society, you get "right-wing" label immediately.

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

Right vs left is about Capitalism vs Socialism, and generally upholding hierarchy vs abolishing it.

You would not get labeled right wing based on those views unless you had other nonsense going on in tandem.

mydude ,

I would absolutely agree with you on your first paragraph.

But please answer this honestly, "my body, my choice" during covid was labeled "right-wing", you agree?

Doing diplomacy with Putin to end Ukraine war was
also labeled "right-wing" putin puppet talking points, no?

Both these are traditional left-wing values.

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

"My body, my choice" was not a right-wing stance. It was instead an anti-science movement. If you just listen to the words, its easy to think it might be leftist, but the intent behind it was absolutely far-right. A good comparison is "All Lives Matter" or even "White Lives Matter" as a response to "Black Lives Matter."

Diplomacy with Putin to end the war can be right or left. Opposing Imperialism is left wing, what matters is the way you wish to conduct diplomacy, and to what outcome.

So yea, good chance you could be right wing.

mydude ,

"Believe in science", that's anti-science. "My body, my choice" has always been in context of abortion, and viewed as left wing. Here it's the exact same words, the exact same meaning in context of taking an experimental redefined definition of a vaccine. It's in this setting that characters make or breaks. If you cannot uphold your values when they matter, you don't have values, you have hobbies.

zarkanian ,
@zarkanian@sh.itjust.works avatar

It sounds like you're a moral absolutist, and that is absolutely right-wing. Context is key. You can say "It's wrong to kill", but what if the person you killed was trying to kill you, and you acted in self defense? What if killing them was the only choice you had to prevent them from killing you or somebody you love?

Similarly, you can say "My body, my choice", but the situation is different when you're talking about getting an abortion vs. getting a vaccine.

mydude ,

You can call me whatever you like. Here is a text about the differences between ethics and laws, taken from a dentist journal, but the same laws apply here.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/jopr.13493

In general, the courts have determined how ethical principles translate into the requirements for how healthcare providers obtain a patient's consent for treatment. Consent from a legal perspective involves respecting the “bodily integrity of the individual.” This dimension emanates from the philosophy of personal autonomy, defined as “an individual's capacity for self-determination or self-governance” or “the capacity to decide for oneself and pursue a course of action in one's life.” The courts view the informed consent requirement for a healthcare provider as a requirement to disclose sufficient information for the patient to make a “controlled decision before undergoing irreversible treatment.”, A patient's consent must be voluntary, meaning “no coercion or unfair persuasion and inducements” and can be withdrawn at any time.

There is no special cut-out for vaccination within the law. In this context a vaccine would be defined as "irreversible [medical] treatment".

zarkanian ,
@zarkanian@sh.itjust.works avatar

Getting a vaccine is a public health issue while getting an abortion is not. By choosing to not get vaccinated, you place other people at risk by increasing your chances of infecting others and by giving the virus more opportunities to mutate.

mydude ,

Here are the rules in Norway from our FHI.
The same rules apply in other countries, just more wishy-washy worded...

https://www.fhi.no/va/vaksinasjonsveilederen-for-helsepersonell/vaksinasjon/lover-og-regler-ved-vaksinasjon/?term=#vaksinasjon-er-frivillig

Vaksinasjon er frivillig
All vaksinasjon i Norge er frivillig. Personer som anbefales eller ber om vaksine må få tilstrekkelig informasjon om fordeler og ulemper ved vaksinering til å kunne ta et informert valg. Det skal også være åpenhet om usikkerhet og kunnskap som mangler.

Translate it and weep.

mydude ,

Here are the rules in Norway from our FHI.

https://www.fhi.no/va/vaksinasjonsveilederen-for-helsepersonell/vaksinasjon/lover-og-regler-ved-vaksinasjon/?term=#vaksinasjon-er-frivillig

Vaksinasjon er frivillig
All vaksinasjon i Norge er frivillig. Personer som anbefales eller ber om vaksine må få tilstrekkelig informasjon om fordeler og ulemper ved vaksinering til å kunne ta et informert valg. Det skal også være åpenhet om usikkerhet og kunnskap som mangler.

Translate it and see for yourself.

If you are to the left of someone, and they are not informed, they will call you right-wing.

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

Nah, not bothering to do your legwork for you.

mydude ,

I thought I would be nicer to you than I was to the previous guy I answered. I wrote; "Translate it and weep". Here is the translation;

Vaccination is voluntary. All vaccination in Norway is voluntary. People who are recommended or ask for a vaccine must be given sufficient information about the advantages and disadvantages of vaccination to be able to make an informed choice. There must also be openness about uncertainty and possible lack of knowledge.

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

Cool, why exactly do I care about this?

mydude ,

"its easy to think it might be leftist, but the intent behind it was absolutely far-right."

I provided an example of a far-left, very articulate answer to refute this. If i were you, I would stop and reflect on this.

I cannot make you care, only you can do that.

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

You gave an example of people saying a thing. That doesn't make it leftist or not.

mydude ,

"You gave an example of people saying a thing. That doesn't make it leftist or not."

I gave you a quote from Norways FHI (equivalent to USA HHS), citing the rules of, "My body, my choice", proving that the most leftist stance is to have FULL bodily autonomy without any vaccine cut-outs. Norway is to the left of USA, certainly regarding these rules.

There are no if's or but's about this, I don't think you can get this any clearer than these words:
"Vaccination is voluntary. All vaccination in Norway is voluntary. People who are recommended or ask for a vaccine must be given sufficient information about the advantages and disadvantages of vaccination to be able to make an informed choice. There must also be openness about uncertainty and possible lack of knowledge."

It's directly from their fhi.no official government webpage.

Those are my arguments that "My body, my choice" is as far left as you come.

I can add that we have a cut-out for this rule. The only way a doctor can over step the wishes of his patient is if the patient actively pursues actions that will result in intentionally self harm. And no, this does not include a person not taking vaccinations.

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

No, lol. Leftism is about worker ownership of the Means of production and a general rejection of unjust hierarchy. A leftist group saying something does not mean that thing is leftist.

mydude ,

Yes, that is the core issue, and the most important one. How will you archieve this if you don't have free speech or bodily autonomy? A very broad definition of leftism is everything that helps plebs.

Conyak ,

I’m in my 40s and I honestly still don’t understand the appeal of the GOP to the average American. I have never seen them put forth a policy that does not seem to be shitting on one group or another. What has the GOP done in the last 40 years to make the average citizens life better?

Traister101 ,

That's the interesting thing they don't. They typically do the best they can to make lives worse for their constituents and they'll be happy about it as long as the "others" are getting fucked over more than they are.

Rootiest ,
@Rootiest@lemmy.world avatar

I don't think it even has to be "more" so long as others as being fucked over that's good enough for them

zalgotext ,

shitting on one group or another

That's the whole point. They're the party of oppression, and the people that follow that party believe that those groups should be oppressed.

badaboomxx ,

That they hate some of all the other people the consevative voters hate, and they are happy to starve if the group they hate starve too.

It is a stupid premise I know, but you can see posts about evil things the gop does, and somehow "centrists" find a way to blame the democrats for that.

words_number ,

I think that is actually true. The average poor republican doesn't want to be wealthy, if that would mean that <insert minority of your choice> would also become more wealthy or have more rights. This also applies to other political subjects. I mean a poor republican who works a terribly paying job with no worker rights or healthcare would actively vote against politicians who say they'd want to change that situation, just to make sure that underage girls that got raped are forced to give birth to their unwanted childs they then can't provide for.

badaboomxx ,

It is sad, but I also agreed with that.

Not sure why they are like that but as long as the ones they hate also suffer the conservatives are ok.

But they never stop to see an alternative where anyone has to suffer.

TeoTwawki , (edited )
@TeoTwawki@lemmy.world avatar

Its partly like that but its MORE so that they are utterly convinced that all thier troubles including that they are poor is some other groups fault, and even when they do have doubts they are unable to express them without fear of losing thier status in thier in-group. So they will keep on voting against thier own interests and blaming the wrong people for the results.

badaboomxx ,

That is also true.

ultra ,

Literally an echo chamber

lobut ,

If you don't let people starve. They'll learn to be lazy and it'll be the downfall of our society! /s

we should also get rid of the inheritance tax so I can make sure even more generations of my family will never need to work and be lazy! /s

BeigeAgenda ,
@BeigeAgenda@lemmy.ca avatar

Yes we need the society to look like Hercule Poirot's England where you had to wait for your uncle to die, or help them on the way, to get some inheritance.

db2 ,

The people whining are literally brain damaged. Conservatism is legitimately brain damage. Given the harm they do though I have no sympathy.

gloriousspearfish ,

That is a very interesting research area.

elDalvini ,

That study states that brain damage can cause more conservative views, but the reverse isn't true. Not everyone with conservative views has brain damage.

Speculater ,

Tomato tomato.

Gabu ,

arguable

EvolvedTurtle ,

Idk
I live in the south with lead pipes
And lead has shown to cause brain damage
And conservatives are the last to car about lead pipes

Hell my house sewage is just being pumped under the street cause our streets water main is broken

Yet the city claims it's our responsibility to pay someone to dig up the street and fix it

We fixed our pipes to the main but we can't afford to do all of that

JasonDJ , (edited )

What are you saying, you want the government to just bring you clean water? Like, without sewage? Like through some sort of taxpayer funded infrastructure? Fucking commie.

HawlSera ,

You've got cause and effect backwards my man

db2 ,

Both can be true. Like a communicable disease, someone can have it and someone else can get infected and then also have it.

shiveyarbles ,

Yeah I think Republicans and centrist Democrats are involved in a massive gaslighting campaign against the American citizens. ie: the overton window, aka shifting what's thought of as acceptable towards corporate donors requirements. Empathy is what makes us human.

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