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cerement , in Hazmat transportation be like
@cerement@slrpnk.net avatar
Madison420 ,

The feds still technically own large portions of the rail system, why would they throw themselves under the bus.

hime0321 ,

That’s absolutely false. The feds only own small, short rail for passenger services. Other than that they own the northeast corridor from Washington DC to Boston. All other rail is directly owned by the rail companies. The feds really should nationalize the rail and have these cartels pay to use the rail. That way the fed can actually make sure the rail is in good condition and stop these big chemical spills.

Madison420 ,

They own several sections of track and you forgot to mention that it's the most popular publicly owned transit in the US. It's not insignificant. And similarly they still maintain interest in the transcontinental railroad they just do not gain a profit or have complete control. You also fail to note that the federal government owns Amtrak so how exactly was what I said "completely false".

Catoblepas ,

Which of the recent chemical spills have been on federally owned rail?

Liz ,

I hate it when Amtrak dumps hazardous waste everywhere!

Madison420 ,

None as far as I'm aware. The point is they make a profit so they have the same reason to avoid being regulated well enough.

Catoblepas ,

None as far as I'm aware

Wow, I guess that kind of makes that a totally irrelevant derailing of this post about chemical spills on railways.

Madison420 ,

The chemical spills are because of lack of regulation. Agreed?

That lack of regulation is because of for profit companies going as cheap as possible to make more money. Agreed?

The federal government owns a for profit passenger line that is comparatively large to other private passenger lines in the us. Agreed?

The federal government has a hand in regulating the same rails it has a stake in. Agreed?

So how exactly are these things not relevant in relation to chemical spills due to lack of regulation.... Like what?

Catoblepas ,

Sorry, “the government runs some passenger lines so it’s the government’s fault that private companies on privately owned rail regularly create environmental disasters” doesn’t check out.

Madison420 ,

With regulation being a federal issue yes. How is that a leap?

captainlezbian , (edited )

They’re federally mandated to run a profit. It’s actually a problem just not the one you think

Madison420 ,

No that's exactly the problem I think it is. If they're mandated to turn a profit the federal government then has a perverse incentive to have weak regulation that allows greater profit margins.

captainlezbian ,

No the problem as it manifests isn’t reduced regulation but basically zero service outside the northeastern corridor

Madison420 ,

As far as I'm aware both the recent large accidents were due to lack of maintenance due to lack of regulation spurred by greed and costing lives.

MotoAsh ,

You fail to note that those rails are irrelevant to the conversation.

Stop being an idiot choosing to completely miss and obfuscate the point. It's just... pathetic.

hime0321 , (edited )

Wrong again, the most popular US public transportation would go to the New York City Subway. At 2 billion rides a year compared to Amtrack’s about 23 million rides a year. It is insignificant compared to the hundred and sixty thousand miles of rail in the US. Amtrak only owns 750 miles of track. So you tell me is .4% of all the rail in the US significant?
The only interest the feds maintain in US rail, aside from owning amtrack, is in regulating railroads and transportation. Those agencies would be the federal railroad administration and the surface transportation board, along with state regulators in some states.
What you said is completely false, as you said “the feds still technically own large portions of the rail system” and I’m telling you that .4% is not large portions of the rail system.

Madison420 ,

The New York subway system isn't federal, it's state.

No, it's not. A thousand miles of track is more then exists in all of some countries.

I think your idea of large is just skewed, short lines are a thing and are often shorter then 750 though that is changing with rapid consolidation.

hime0321 , (edited )

“They own several sections of track and you forgot to mention that it's the most popular publicly owned transit in the US.” I don’t know how you came to the conclusion that I said the New York subway is federal. I said that it is actually the most popular public transportation in the US.
Okay cool some countries have less than 1000 miles of rail, I’m sure I could have figured that out on my own. But the US has 160,000 miles and 750 of that is, guess what, .4%. So yes it’s fucking small compared to the total rail in the US. My idea of large is not skewed in the slightest, 160,000 is much bigger than 750, simple maths. Yeah short lines are a thing, and guess what, they are not long. It honestly makes no sense that you are comparing amtrack to countries that don’t have much rail, when the entire conversation is about US rail. Like I can say that the US has more miles of road than Cuba, but that has no impact on how many of the roads are paved vs dirt in the US. That’s pretty much what you are saying.
Let me put it this way, there was approximately 245 billion miles traveled in 2021 for European passenger rail. While for the same year amtrack had 12.1 million miles traveled. Which if you do the math is .005%.

Madison420 ,

How exactly is state regulated state funded subway relevant to federally regulated partially federally funded railroads? It's not in my opinion but if you're going somewhere with it I'm intrigued.

Correct, it's not gigantic but for a federal rail system even the "small" Amtrak section it in itself isn't small.

Nope, I think it's skewed. If you think that small section isn't enough for governmental interest in lack of regulation I think you're absolutely mistaken.

Much like how the NYC subway is in no way related to federal rail or federally regulated rail. I don't even think mta handles hazmat in any way at all whatsoever so how does it matter in relation to chemical spills?

Again, I think you're simply not willing to connect the dots.

Btw that's 137000 miles of publicly funded highly regulated passenger rail which by your account we have 750 miles. And you claim I'm bringing up irrelevant stuff.

hime0321 ,

They are both passenger rail. It’s relevant because I responded to your claim that amtrack is the most popular public transportation. It’s not, NYC subway is. How is that not relevant?
That’s still small, you can’t compare a small country with fewer people and little rail infrastructure and draw relevant conclusions. So when you properly compare to countries that have populations and rail infrastructure that is comparable you can draw relevant conclusions. Which is why in my last response I chose to compare it to the EU.
I never talked about lack of regulations and the Feds interest in it. That would be you projecting. And also the lack of regulation is because of the 4 main rail companies that lobby to keep it the way it is. Not because of the government’s interest in the lack of regulation.
I never claimed that the NYC subway moves hazmat. They are passenger rail not freight.
Idk what “dots” you want me to connect, but you definitely need some better reading comprehension.
I honestly do not understand how you think that US rail is publicly funded. It is not. The railroad companies own the railroads and maintain them.
There is 750 miles of rail that amtrack directly owns. They have cost-sharing agreements with states that they operate in, on lines less than 750 miles. Anything over 750 miles receives federal financial support. So the 750 miles that amtrack directly owns is publicly funded. And the rest that they use from the railroad companies gets some public funding. But that is still less than 22,000 miles compared to the 160,000 miles of US rail.

Madison420 ,

It's not relevant because they do not do hazmat at all, Amtrak rails are shared with commercial rail often including hazmat.

Yes you can, I can compare an apple and the planet Venus. You're confusing inability with inanity and you're still wrong, it's a reasonable comparison.

Agreed, it was my point and you can't seem to absorb it and on fact are arguing that the conflict doesn't exist because "Amtrak small". The 4 main companies that lobby a regulatory agency soft on actual regulation because of perverse federal incentive.

I didn't say you did, I said NYC subway is a shit comparison because it doesn't take part in the subject of the conversation. Tomatoes are delicious too but it's entirely irrelevant because it's not related to the subject in any way.

The feds own track that they find federally, are you actually too dense to accept your own position? Then you subsequently explain how exactly rail is publicly funded. Amazing.

hime0321 ,

I just can’t even. Like I explain how something like 23,000 miles of rail gets some public funding and you say that’s the entire 160,000 miles of rail. The only federal rail is the rail owned by amtrack, which is 750 miles.

I’m done. You’re too fucking dense, with the reading comprehension of a fucking brick.
I literally answered all of that in my last comment.

Madison420 ,

Clearly. The amount is irrelevant, the incentive to not be regulated to make more profit is the save as any private company but private companies don't own and control regulatory agencies, the federal government does.

You didn't, and haven't. You're simply shitty at connect the dots. Apparently perverse incentive to you is a ok.

hime0321 ,

Holy fucking shit. The rail companies own the rail. Two federal agencies regulate rail and cargo on rail. The private companies that own the rail have an incentive to keep costs low. They do this by maintaining the rail as cheaply as they can. They also lobby the government to keep regulations relaxed so they don’t have to maintain as much. The government doesn’t care one single bit about the cost to maintain rail, their only incentive is taking the lobby money. Like maybe you should figure out how to connect the dots. And again reading comprehension is not your strong suit.

Madison420 ,

Sure, most of the rail aside from the 750 miles we both agree is 100% federally owned. You're being obtuse.

Why do you believe a for profit company ran by the government has any less motivation to have limited regulation for the purposes of making a larger profit.

This isn't hard you're just being dumb.

hime0321 ,

No, it’s not fucking federally owned. ONLY THE 750 MILES IS FEDERALLY OWNED. Again reading comprehension. I never said amtrack has any less motivation to have limited regulations. You are constantly shoving words down my throat that I never said, somehow coming to conclusions that are not even close to what I am saying. I’m just going to block you so I don’t have to deal with the mental capacity of a brick.

Madison420 ,

You again agreed 750 miles are owned by the federal government, where in my last comment did you read anything other than 750 miles.

No you're implying it my saying Amtrak's existence, federal ownership and greed are somehow totally unrelated to each other.

Go ahead, you're not making particular sense anyway though you do seem to actually get the point.

ToucheGoodSir ,

Spitting out the statistics, what a legend. Appreciate the write up!

msage ,

You forgot to add x100 to your calculations - it's <0.48%

hime0321 ,

No. 750/160000 = 0.0047

msage ,

Yes, and now make that into percentage, not just a fraction.

hime0321 ,

Ahhh, yes I see. I’m too used to doing that part in my head and just slapped a percent on the end when I didn’t actually do that here. When I saw your last comment I instinctively went that’s like 50% how did they mess that up?

msage ,

Yeah, and the same way I saw 0.004% and thought how ridiculous that is. No biggies, just making sure math checks out, and it does ;)

Mr_Buttpiss ,

exactly... 0.0047 is 0.47% of 1. you forgot to shift the decimal

KillingTimeItself ,

it’s the most popular publicly owned transit in the US

compared next to what? Fucking nasa?

Madison420 ,

Other federally controlled rail systems. You're still ignoring the actual point.

KillingTimeItself ,

dude im pretty sure disney world could arguably be classified as a private transportation company with how much transportation they have in their campus.

Of course amtrak is the most highly rated public transit system, it's the only fucking one that exists.

Madison420 , (edited )

They are, its literally called Disney Transport and on top of that they have the cruise line contracts and partial ownership.

The fact it exists at all is my point.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disney_Transport#:~:text=Disney%20Transport%20is%20the%20public,gondola%20lift%20system%2C%20and%20watercraft.

KillingTimeItself ,

yeah so why are we talking about amtrak being the higest rated public transit? The late soviet government was still a government.

Madison420 ,

Because it's income is not insignificant. How is this not obvious, of profit is the motive to reduce regulation then profit is relevant.

captainlezbian ,

Yeah privatization of rail was an absolute disaster

hime0321 ,

Yeah, turns out letting companies run critical infrastructure incentivizes them to pay as little as possible to keep it running.

neuracnu , in Hazmat transportation be like
@neuracnu@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

The secret is to undercook the industrial regulations. Everyone will get to know each other on k street.

x0x7 ,

That's what beginners think is the secret. The real secret is not holding people accountable and shielding them from litigious liability. Companies would regulate themselves if they had to pay for EVERYTHING the second they screw up.

VirtualOdour , in Hazmat transportation be like

American passenger trains are absurdly bad, I tried to book a return between two neighboring cities and evey single thing about it is stupid and expensive. I would have had to book the exact train which is annoying anyway but to make ot worse any at a useful time are are all insane prices and the train stations were both awkward and stupid. We might have to kill time waiting for our exact train but we can't do it near the station because theres nothing there.

You guys need to start acting upset that china is so fad ahead and get everyone charged up to update the railways.

MoonMelon ,

I've taken the Cardinal four times and the only upsides were no TSA inspection (which they're talking about changing) and no size limits on luggage. Other than that everything was a fucking nightmare. Like, overflowing toilets with turds sliding around on the floor of the bathroom, 8 hour delays, departure time at 3am... bad. The first time I took it for the experience, the second time I took it because, "well shit happens right? Maybe it was a fluke." It wasn't a fluke. The only way it would be worth it would be if tickets were like $30.

Nationalize the rails.

bleistift2 , (edited ) in Hazmat transportation be like

Everybody gives the German rail flak for being late all the time and for 100 years-old technology and lacking personnel. But rail crashes are really rare. You gotta give them that. The switches may be operated by hand, but they’re safe.

BlastboomStrice , (edited )
@BlastboomStrice@mander.xyz avatar

The switches may be operated by hand, but they’re safe.

Yeah, about that, check what happened in Greece a year ago (~60 people dead and the government still tries hard to interfere with justice): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempi_train_crash

(I'm mentioning Greece, because I think our rails don't have many fail-safes and are kinda manually operated.)

Omega_Jimes , in Hazmat transportation be like

I worked as a conductor for a little while. It's a law that anything containing hazardous materials HAS to move after a certain amount of time. I personally toured over 100 cars of hazmat from one end of the yard, through town, and back around into the other end of the yard so we could say it moved.

NikkiDimes ,

Huh, just like parking in the city

Omega_Jimes ,

That's.... exactly what it's like. Yeah.

Except there are consequences for citizens parking in the city.

Bougie_Birdie , in Hazmat transportation be like
@Bougie_Birdie@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Is this a general indictment of railroad companies, or am I about to read about something ghastly in the news?

Orbituary ,
@Orbituary@lemmy.world avatar

No, but apparently you missed the largest chemical spill in US history while you were asleep over the last year or so.

https://www.nbcnews.com/science/science-news/ohio-derailment-chemicals-spilled-impact-residents-rcna71561

and the one that happened after that.

and the other one that happened again right after that.

Bougie_Birdie ,
@Bougie_Birdie@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Oh, I don't doubt that they have a horrible track record, I know how that scene from the meme ends.

You know how sometimes you hear about breaking events from memes? I was wondering if this was that.

pearsaltchocolatebar ,

There was a massive ammonia spill in the last few days.

Bougie_Birdie ,
@Bougie_Birdie@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Thanks, I found a story about that: article

That's scary stuff, ammonia's no joke. It sounds like if the wind was blowing the other way several people could have been teargassed to death. Imagine if that happened in a city...

1stTime4MeInMCU ,

track record

I see what you did there

danc4498 ,

I wish i could sleep for about a year or so.

Kecessa , (edited )

It's not a US only issue

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lac-M%C3%A9gantic_rail_disaster

Railroad companies need to be shut down and the whole thing needs to be nationalized.

MotoAsh ,

Not the topic. Not the point.

Kecessa ,

So the topic wasn't how railroads are operated by irresponsible companies?

CubitOom , in Photosynthesis

That kitty is gonna need a shovel full of compost at some point

Track_Shovel OP ,

He makes his own :D

GreatTitEnthusiast , in "Suffering builds character". anarcho-primitivists, probably

That's a false dichotomy in a lot of the comments here

We do both

Carbon capture isn't so we can continue to use fossil fuels. It's because once we get to 0 emissions we still need to draw down the carbon in the atmosphere

An ounce of prevention is almost always worth a pound of cure but we're still going to want that cure because every extra tenth of a degree we can bring the Earth back to normal is going to be worth it

trollbearpig , (edited )

Nah, we don't do both. Carbon capture projects are bullshit for the most part, see https://time.com/6264772/study-most-carbon-credits-are-bogus/ for example. Some are actually generating more carbon, not less overall. Instead, companies have been using this as a way to "buy" their target metrics, except they are buying offsets that don't really exist. And they use this to market their products as green/net zero products, which incentivizes even more consumption.

So overall this whole thing is most likely a net negative, as in we would be better without them. And honestly is not surprising at all, technology is not magic. It's just people want perfect solutions so we don't have to do anything and the problem goes away, so they keep falling for this bullshit. Case in point, your comment lol.

someacnt_ ,

Oh, and I thought they made carbon capture viable (assuming clean energy). Meh

poVoq , (edited )
@poVoq@slrpnk.net avatar

Carbon capture isn’t so we can continue to use fossil fuels.

But that is literally how it is used in the official plans and projections by governments and the UN. They nearly all plan with an increase of fossil fuel use and later (unrealistic) draw-down to reach "net zero" by the 2050ties or so.

UpperBroccoli ,

Carbon capture isn’t so we can continue to use fossil fuels. It’s because once we get to 0 emissions we still need to draw down the carbon in the atmosphere

'Carbon capture' technology is stupid. Planting trees and not cutting down any more, that is the way to go. They capture carbon, lots of it. That 'technology' has worked for millions of years.

VirtualOdour ,

Yes that is a great solution if we had infinite space and time also if we weren't concerned about the natural world and were happy to destroy all the biodiversity and unique biomes by converting into forests. Oh and if it would actually work of course, but that doesn't matter in feelgood fantasy world.

I love trees, I've volunteered planting trees and donates to woodlands and all sorts of things but they are not going to save us from the mess we're in. They're also not as simple as they should be, management is crucial as there's a surprising amount of things that can go wrong on a large scale which would totally fuck the environment - especially with foodweb issues and soil chemistry.

UpperBroccoli ,

destroy all the biodiversity

Nice strawman, is it biodegradable?

GreatTitEnthusiast ,

It's not a straw man, the guy knows what he's talking about. Destroying biodiversity is a major problem with a lot of tree farms and tree planting programs. Tree planting doesn't HAVE to do that but that kind of management is hard to do, like the guy said

UpperBroccoli ,

Tear down oversized parking lots and ten lane highways, failed "development" projects, hotel deserts and all of those other cemented spaces that are just dead and useless. Just let nature take it back.

VirtualOdour , (edited )

It's easy to be glib but the actual reality is far more complex than you want it to be, here's a good simple video talking about the difference between good tree planting projects and bad ones

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9k-22Lv9bU - Simon Clark, when tree planting hurts the climate

He doesn't go into the bad very deeply but they're are plenty of other resources if you're interested. The tree planting projects he does talk about are great and beneficial to the climate but their benefits are so much more than the small help they give the environment - is great treed are being planted when done in the right place but they won't save us alone and it's difficult to do

The education aspect is vital, one tool that's got a lot of promise is the node and branch analysis that plantCV does, there are projects working on using that to look at a tree and model it from images to highlight which limbs to cut and where for effective copicing, as well as other plant health info like tracking diseases or pests and providing good eco solutions. If a charity could give access to such a tool to subsistence farmers in their native languages (via an LLM like metas open-source models) that would be far more effective than their current efforts protecting training video onto the side of a building.

One of the best eco solutions though is not longstanding forests it's actually maintained cycles of smaller fast growing plants like willow, hemp, or even biowaste from crops or things like sidewalk grasses from.managed spaces. They collect the biomass using a non destructive cropping method then dry it in a thermal solar collector before burning it, the heat drives a turbine to generate electricity and the smoke goes upto the chimney where a portion of that electricity is used to create an electric charge over a membrain which collects over 90% of the carbon - this is then converted into echems (electronically derived chemicals, lubricants, fuels, or building materials.) These are used then at end of life we chuck them in a hole, ideally a used coal mine so that carbon goes back where it came from.

It's not a choice between eco utopia and tech hell, take a bio recycling center as an example, currently they're incredibly limited with people having to manually remove contaminants which means loads gets missed and we actually end up adding plastic and chemicals to farm fields, the process is slow and results in low quality 'soil improver' which is why to stop total soil death we'd either need to starve as our arable land lays fallow or cover it in chemical fertilizer (which would could make at the carbon capture plant btw rather than the current ugly supply chain) a better option is automation and ai enabled permaculture integrated into human living spaces, cities teaming with life and covered in plants all being maintained by automated tools with their biowaste taken (via underground cargo networks if we're blessed) to have the carbon extracted and useful things made with it.

All of this is possible with the science we know, solutions are still being engineered but if we put nasa levels of effort into it then we could have the start of things in place within five years (the education tools, facility automation, ground broken for at-scale biocarbon extraction plants, and home garden automtion)

Trees are our friends but tech is not our enemy

EmperorHenry , in Hazmat transportation be like
@EmperorHenry@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

Remember when Trump forced the protesting railroad workers to go back to work? What a fascist right? ...just kidding, Biden did that.

PlainSimpleGarak , in few more desolate places on earth

Does Lemmy have an im14andthisisdeep community?

ikidd ,
@ikidd@lemmy.world avatar

Yah, it's all of Lemmy.

fury , in few more desolate places on earth

Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you got til it's gone

JasonDJ ,

They took all the trees and put 'em in a tree museum.

Num10ck , in few more desolate places on earth

why can't we all park on the grated roof of an aviary?

kaboom36 ,
@kaboom36@ani.social avatar

Cars sometimes leak poison :(

cerement ,
@cerement@slrpnk.net avatar

“sometimes”

Etterra , in Hazmat transportation be like

Don't forget oil tankers and cruise ships with their fuel, cargo, and waste.

Snowpix , in Hazmat transportation be like
@Snowpix@lemmy.ca avatar

Norfolk Southern, what's your function?

"Flyin' off the rails and hitting everyone!"

SnotFlickerman , in Photosynthesis
@SnotFlickerman@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Praise the Sun!

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