Jensen Huang says kids shouldn't learn to code — they should leave it up to AI.

silasmariner , 4 months ago

Producer of calculators says kids don't need to learn maths, they just need a calculator

JackGreenEarth , 4 months ago

Well, a lot of maths can be done with a calculator. They don't need to learn to actually understand the maths unless either they actually want to, or they're going into something like engineering.

skvlp , 4 months ago

I disagree. They need to understand math, but not being able to calculate math problems in their head.

dojan , 4 months ago

Absolutely. The calculator is a tool to help you solve a problem. If you don’t understand the problem, then at best you can’t confirm if the answer is correct or not, and at worst the entire exercise is completely lost on you.

The same applies to LLMs. Sure you can get them to spit out code, but unless you understand the code it might be tough to verify that it does what you want. Further, if the code needs adapting (as it often does) then you are shit out of luck if you don’t understand it.

Sure you can ask the LLM to make changes, but the moment something goes wrong in the prompt you have an error sitting there polluting all future output.

wewbull , 4 months ago

Indeed. I've been watching a number of evaluations of different LLMs, where people give it a set of problems and then evaluate the results. The number of times I've seen "Well it got that wrong, but if we let it re-evaluate it, it gets it right". If that's the case, the model is useless. You have to know the right answer before you can ask the model for an answer because the answer you'll get can't be trusted.

Might as well flip a coin.

dojan , 4 months ago

Yeah. I was tasked with evaluating LLMs for software dev at my company last year. Tried a few solutions and tools, and various workflows from just using it as a crutch to basically instructing the LLM to make the application. The former was rarely necessary (but sometimes helpful) and the latter was ridiculously cumbersome.

You need to be specific, and leave no room for interpretation, because the moment you do the latter it'll start making stuff up that doesn't necessarily fit in with the spec, and while you can correct that, that's tedious in and of itself, and once it's already had the idea it'll often have a hard time letting go of it.

I also had several cases where it outright ignored provided context. That was even more frustrating because then it made assumptions that I'd already proven to be false.

The best use cases I got from it was

• Explaining unclear code
• Writing clear documentation (it was really good at this)
• Rubberducking

Essentially, it was a great helper, but a horrendous developer. Felt more like I was tutoring it than anything else.

skvlp , 4 months ago

I haven’t seen anyone mention rubberducking or documentation or understanding code as use cases for AI before, but those are truly useful and meaningful advantages. Thanks for bringing that to my attention :)

dojan , 4 months ago

There are definitely ways in which LLMs and imaging models are useful. Hell I've been playing around with vocal synthesis for years, SynthV's AI models are amazing, so even for music there's use cases. The problem is big corporations just fucking it up. Rampant theft, no compensation for the original creators, and then they're sitting on the models like dragons. OpenAI needs to rename themselves, preferably years ago, because there's nothing open about them.

The way I see it, the way SynthV (and VOCALOID prior to that) works is great; you hire a vocalist with the express purpose of making a model out of their voice. They know what they're getting into, and are getting compensated for it. Then there are licenses and such on these models. In some cases, like those produced by Eclipsed Sounds, anyone that uses a model to create a song gets decently free reign. In others, like the Bushiroad models, you are fairly restricted in what you can do with them.

Meaning the original artist has a say. It's why some models, like Cangqiong, will never get AI updates; the voice provider's wishes matter.

Using computer generated stuff as a crutch in the creation process is perfectly fine I feel, but outright trying to replace humans with "AI" is a ridiculous notion.

skvlp , 4 months ago

There has been synths that has been used to trigger vocal samples, among other things, for like 40(?) years, and this almost sounds like an evolution to that?

There are a lot of technological innovations in music (vax roll recording, tape recording, DAW recording, tube amps, transistor amps, amp modellers, Mellotron, analog synths, modular synths, digital synths, soft-synths, etc, etc, etc), and I think there’s surely more to come, and awesome new music to be made possible from the technological advantages.

I agree that the technology is not the problem, but how it’s used. If, let’s say, giant corporations feed all of human art into their closed, proprietary models only to churn out endless amounts of disposable entertainment, it would be detrimental to the creation of original art and I’d look upon that as a bad thing. But I guess we as a society has decided that we want to empower our corporate overlords at the expense of ourselves, to go far off topic of the original thread :/

dojan , 4 months ago

There has been synths that has been used to trigger vocal samples, among other things, for like 40(?) years, and this almost sounds like an evolution to that?

Kind of? But I think, particularly with SynthV offering such realistic vocals, it might be useful for producers that can't easily get vocalists, or don't want to/can't sing themselves. You can also obviously use it to create backing vocals and fill things out if you realise that you need more vocals and your vocalist isn't available.

Or, maybe you're like me and just enjoy tinkering with the voice. Here's an example song by someone that's pretty talented at tuning these.

let’s say, giant corporations feed all of human art into their closed, proprietary models only to churn out endless amounts of disposable entertainment, it would be detrimental to the creation of original art and I’d look upon that as a bad thing. But I guess we as a society has decided that we want to empower our corporate overlords at the expense of ourselves, to go far off topic of the original thread :/

This is the road I fear we're heading down and it's so dystopic. 😭

skvlp , 4 months ago

Those vocals are pretty good for being computer generated. It’s no replacement for greats like Bowie, Simone, Jagger, Winehouse, Yorke, etc, etc, but it’s not supposed to be. Sometimes it’ll do the trick, sometimes it’ll be a necessity, it’ll work for some backing vocals, demos, sketches, songwriting experimentation, guide vocals, and so on. I hope we’ll see awesome AI tools being used to make awesome music.

I definitely have that fear myself, but I hope human resilience hangs in there. Besides, I don’t think I’d care if the masses listen to bland shit by 17 songwriters or bland shit by AI ;)

dojan , 4 months ago (edited 4 months ago)

The quality of the vocals are now honestly less dependant on the synthesis engine than on the skill of the original singer, and the intent of the production team. Hayden is a first-party library produced by Dreamtonics, and they tend to be very focused on having their voices do a specific thing. Ninezero for example is all-in on that gravelly rock type voice and won't do soft ballads easily or with any particular quality.

This was true even for VOCALOID; most of the VOCALOID libraries are absolute bunk. YAMAHA's (developer of VOCALOID) first signature English library, CYBER DIVA sounds so bad. The (in my opinion) best library for VOCALOID happens to be a Hello Kitty collaboration. For some reason they chose a traditional Japanese singer with an incredible vocal range to be the voice provider rather than a voice actor, and the quality of that voice is reflected in the voice library.

EclipsedSounds has three libraries now, and they've focused more on capturing the qualities of the original singer. Their first library SOLARIA is a Soprano whose voice is provided by Emma Rowley. Their second library ASTERIAN is a bass, voiced by Eric Hollaway (known as 'thatbassvoice'). Their third, SAROS, is a tenor whose provider I don't think has come forth yet. They are much more expressive than most libraries produced by Dreamtonics. SAROS' second vocal demo is a great example.

One of the neat things about them being synthesized is that these libraries can sing in English, Japanese, Mandarin, Cantonese, and Spanish (and with some fiddling, likely in other languages too - I managed to get SAROS to perform in Norwegian thanks to the Spanish update). Where SynthV really falls short is the occasional glitches when you push the vocals, as well as the lack of vocal ornamentation; there's no good way of performing say, growls at the moment.

---

I think ultimately human creativity will preservere. We'll likely see a lot of AI generated garbage as people are getting used to the tools and finding ways of working with them in the next couple of years. After that, I don't know. Even then there'll be people that prefer to just do everything by themselves.

We manage to make garbage even without AI. Disney's "Wish" was so bad people think AI was used, but I think it's more a matter of "direction by corporate." Corporate decided to seagull the entire project and the original creative vision was basically destroyed by corporate interests. You see it all the time in the games industry as well; creativity is set aside for proven established ideas, and market appeal. Risks are not allowed.

webghost0101 , 4 months ago (edited 4 months ago)

As an autist i can it agree more, understanding something is a requirement for me to do well.

So much of my struggles in school where based on using formulas without knowing why or whats behind them, not understanding the broader practical implications and intended goals of assignments, i was just told to just do them, the way it is asked with the formulas i was given (or was forced to remember). Lost motivation, my will to live even, spiraled and crashed hard in the end.

I got better, now i am sitting here scribbling all kinds of math in my little black book as a way to relax. I dont watch “tv” but i wont miss a kurtzegesagt or a veritasium.

I inherently love science, in major contrast to my later high school grades.

skvlp , 4 months ago

Absolutely. If one just “does as told” without understanding without understanding there is no way of knowing if one is lost or not.

I’ve had similar experiences in school myself, and they truly are detrimental to both learning and the joy of learning.

I’m glad you are doing better, and thanks for sharing your story :)

pathief , 4 months ago

Scientific calculators can do a ton of stuff, but they're all useless if you don't know anything about math. If you don't know anything about the subject, you can't formulate the right questions.

berg , 4 months ago

In many engineering professions you really need to understand the underlying math to have a chance in hell to interpret the results correctly. Just because you get a result doesn't mean you get an answer.

Annoyed_Crabby , 4 months ago

You need to learn what is addition subtraction multiplication division and also how it works to do anything meaningful with it in calculator...

HeavyDogFeet , 4 months ago

This is objectively stupid. There are tonnes of things you learn in maths that are useful for everyday life even if you don’t do the actual calculations by hand.

yildolw , 4 months ago

They aren't going to catch the typo or order of operations error they made on their calculator if they don't understand the math

captainlezbian , 4 months ago

And that’s why people don’t understand that I’m not magic. Seriously, no you should know how to do math, understand how it works. Just like how as an engineer I need to understand how stories work.

I_Has_A_Hat , 4 months ago

I mean, we aren't exactly teaching kids how to hand calculate trig anymore. Sin, Cos, and Tan operations are pretty much exclusively done with a calculator and you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who graduated in the last 25 years who knows any other way to do it.

silasmariner , 4 months ago

For a younger age range you might be right, but in general that's not true; the approximation via a Fourier series is definitely something we teach kids. We don't generally expect people to be able to actually calculate it at the speed of a calculator, sure, but at least it's tested whether they can derive the expansion.

257m , 4 months ago

I haven't graduated high school yet and even I know how to calculate sin and cos with the taylor series maclurin expansion. I am still in grade 11 and I assume they would be teaching it next year when I take my calculus class? Do they not teach it anymore?

JTskulk , 4 months ago

Based young Lemmy user, welcome!

257m , 4 months ago

:)

aluminium , 4 months ago

So the Nvidia drivers will be 100% written by AI then?

jerrythegenius , 4 months ago

Oh dear

r00ty , 4 months ago

Well, he's put the writing on the wall for his own developers. So, even if it isn't AI that writes them, the quality may well go down when those that can easily do so, leave for pastures new :P

Passerby6497 , 4 months ago

Might make them more stable

elshandra , 4 months ago

Does that mean they can't be copyright anymore? I'll take it.

cloudless , 4 months ago

This is a good case study of how self interest blinds simple logic.

janAkali , 4 months ago

it's a marketing stunt not a logic-related problem

cloudless , 4 months ago

Why not both?

yildolw , 4 months ago

Yes, yes, keep my labour in high demand and my salary high

bionicjoey , 4 months ago

https://media1.tenor.com/m/BNA0KXjX-1AAAAAC/linus-torvalds-linus.gif

snek , 4 months ago

What is this from?

Blemgo , 4 months ago

Linus Torvals talk at the Aalto University.
Specifically a segment where he talks about how hard it is to work with Nvidia when it comes to the Linux kernel.

Annoyed_Crabby , 4 months ago

I thought coding skill is mostly about logical thinking, problem solving, and idea implementation instead of merely writing code?

Even then, who's gonna code to improve the AI in a meaningful way if everyone not learning to code? What if AI write their own update badly and no one correct it, and then the badly written AI write an even worst version of it? I think in biology we called that cancer.

OleoSaccharum , 4 months ago

Coding, like writing scientific papers, or novels, is only about randomly generating strings, silly human.

bionicjoey , 4 months ago (edited 4 months ago)

Coding, like writing scientific papers, or novels, is only about randomly generating strings

See also, litigation, medical diagnoses, creating art that evokes an emotional reaction in its audience, etc.

It turns out that virtually all human advancement and achievement comes down to simply figuring out what the next most likely token is based on what's already been written.

(/j incase it's not obvious)

Artyom , 4 months ago

It is, but you should note that the CEO of NVidia is a manager, and software developers haven't been able to sufficiently convey your point to managers for about 50 years, so we're certainly not going to get any better at it in the next few years.

Psaldorn , 4 months ago

I asked ChatGPT to show me how to do some Godot4.2 C# stuff the other day as I transition from Unity, it was 70% incorrect.

Good times. (It was probably right for an older version, but I told it the actual version)

I_Has_A_Hat , 4 months ago

Yea, and as we all know, AI will never progress further than it's current state. /s

leftzero , 4 months ago

Not with LLM's it won't. They're a dead end. In their rush for short term profits so called AI companies have poisoned the well; the only way to "improve" an LLM is to make it larger, but most of the content in the internet is now produced by these fancy autocomplete engines, so there's not only no new and better content to train them on, but since they can't really generate anything they haven't been trained on doing so on LLM generated text will only propagate and maximise any errors, like making photocopies of photocopies or JPEGs of JPEGs.

It's all a silly game of telephone now; a circular LLM centipede fed on its own excrement, distilling its own garbage to the point of maximum uselessness.

I_Has_A_Hat , 4 months ago

Mhmm, give it another year or so. You are like people in the 90's saying while the internet may be useful for emails, that's the limit of what it can accomplish.

Forgive me if your claims of a glass ceiling ring hollow considering all the previous glass ceilings people have claimed about AI.

"An AI will never be able to write in a human like way" Check.

"An AI will never be able to generate a coherent image" Check

"An AI generated image could never be better than a real artist" Check

"AI will never be able to generate a whole video without messing it up" Check

I'm not sure how you can just flippantly say it's not going to advance or progress in any more meaningful way. This is still a very new technology and it's already shattered the limits of what people thought was possible.

leftzero , 4 months ago

Oh, AI is going to progress. LLMs, which are merely applied statistics and no more AI than Markov chains, are not, at least in any significant way (sure, they might get bigger, which won't really change them qualitatively, but as I pointed out there's no unpoisoned content to train them on, so making them bigger is moot anyway, other than as a means to temporarily inflate the bubble).

kometes , 4 months ago

LLM is a plagiarizing machine. Who will write the code for it to plagiarize?

PhlubbaDubba , 4 months ago

Even if AI were able to be trusted, you still need to know the material to know what you're even asking the AI for.

It's a ruler to guide the pencil, not the pencil drawing a straight line itself, you still have to know how to draw to be able to use it in a way that fits what you want to do.

Holyginz , 4 months ago

My God the stupidity goes to the top!

nxdefiant , 4 months ago

The man has a crippling spatula habit, he needs the income.

Thcdenton , 4 months ago

Shut up Jensen, and fuck your jacket.

Imgonnatrythis , 4 months ago

Ngl, kinda like the jacket, but he makes it look dumb by talking all dumb

Thcdenton , 4 months ago (edited 4 months ago)

Guarentee he wears it to hide his manboobs on stage.

Imgonnatrythis , 4 months ago

Yeah, I can respect / relate to that too. I just don't like that he's giving those of us with boobs a bad name by publically being such a dumbass.

ProxyZeus , 4 months ago

If Nvidia driver quality goes down in the next couple years, we know why.

snek , 4 months ago

And I say I don't even know this person and he should just stfu and leave those kids alone.

VaultBoyNewVegas , 4 months ago

He's the CEO of Nvidia one of the largest GPU manufacturers in the world and also a trillion dollar company.

snek , 4 months ago

Good for him. I like Nvidia and use one, but I have the rest of his company to thank for that.

I think for me it was a combination of:

< Name of person I don't know > says < big unhinged sweeping generalization > for < reason that makes no sense to anyone in the field >

My first instinct is not to click stuff like this altogether. I also think that anyone trying to preach what kids should or shouldn't do is already in the wrong automatically by assuming they have any say in this without a degree in pedagogy.

dojan , 4 months ago

He’s also obviously biased since the more people use LLMs and the like the more money he gets.

It’s a bit like “lions think gazelles should be kept in their enclosure”.

jaschen , 4 months ago

You still need the fundamentals. You still need to understand problem solving and debugging.

resetbypeer , 4 months ago

And who will code the code for ML/AI models ? I mean for Jr. Developers this is going to be a better way to learn than "did you Google it? " And maybe have precise answers to your questions. But it sounds more to me like "maybe you should buy more of our silicon".

Sounds a bit like "640kb is more than enough" oneliner. But let's see what it will bring.

empireOfLove2 , 4 months ago

But it sounds more to me like “maybe you should buy more of our silicon”.

gotta drum up that infinite demand to meet and grow their insane valuation bubble when they already can't even produce enough to fill all orders.

Imgonnatrythis , 4 months ago

"I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time...when awesome technological powers are in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness..."

Carl Sagan,
Astrologist/Horposcopist from ancient times.