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Tronn4 ,

Extremely hostile business takeover by the government.

cybersin ,

Don't worry, It's OK when the US does it.

nexguy ,
@nexguy@lemmy.world avatar

U.S. wouldn't be taking over... it could be a New Zealand company for all the u.s. cares.

SirEDCaLot ,

This is obviously a negotiation tactic.

If ByteDance doesn't want to sell their stupid algorithm, they could simply rip it out of TikTok, replace it with a random number generator or any other off-the-shelf recommendation engine, and proceed with the sale.

Find their lowest paid summer intern from the university computer science department, tell him to write some sort of recommendation algorithm and he has two weeks to do it, then whatever he comes up with make it live and that's all the new owner gets.

sugar_in_your_tea ,

I doubt the recommendation algorithm is particularly special, the userbase is the more important thing IMO. However, any purchaser would need to implement something decent if they want to maintain that userbase.

SirEDCaLot ,

Obv without the algorithm TikTok loses some value. However it loses less value than if they just pull the plug.

sugar_in_your_tea ,

It's like Twitter. Yeah, it lost a bunch of value when Musk gutted it, but it's still relevant today. So if someone less hostile to the core userbase buys it, I don't think some growing pains from a change in algorithm would kill it.

swayevenly , (edited )

Reuters.com is blocking vpn now apparently

cheese_greater ,

'Notha one Bytes the Dance

xep ,

Looks like it worked a treat. Do WeChat next!

Jaysyn , (edited )
@Jaysyn@kbin.social avatar

That's fine, but I think they are lying.

And in case you don't understand, foreign corporations running FARA-unregistered influence operations isn't considered a facet of "free speech" in the USA.

Maggoty ,

Okay great. Prove it in court.

conciselyverbose ,

There's no legal case to be had.

The constitution grants congress effectively unlimited power to regulate international trade. Citizens have rights. Foreign actors do not.

Maggoty ,

That hasn't been true for 70 years.

breakfastmtn ,
@breakfastmtn@lemmy.ca avatar

Great news for Loops!

mp3 ,
@mp3@lemmy.ca avatar

So be it. The vaccuum it will leave will get filled by another platform.

Hildegarde ,

This the goal of this bill.

xnx ,
@xnx@slrpnk.net avatar

The whole point of this bill is for mark zuckerberg’s lobbying money to finally get people to use Reels

whoreticulture ,

Reels and YouTube shorts both suck, the algorithms push the most asinine content, or stuff I saw on tiktok MONTHS ago.

Sgn ,

They didn't lobby this bill. Google, oracle, did

simplejack ,
@simplejack@lemmy.world avatar

It’s going to be to their advantage to claim that they’re shutting down, even if they actually want that $50B buyout. If they say they’re going to sell, they’re going to lose what little leverage they have left. The public that wants TikTok will get TikTok, and the public is going to stop pestering politicians about it.

wise_pancake ,

I read it as a bluff too.

They’re between a rock and a hard place, their best position is to play hardball and rile up their users.

Yeah, it means nothing to us to leave. We’re losing money!

If that were really the case why are they in the US at all? Because they know they can make money and their market position is strong.

Cqrd ,

Because China is trying to influence the US and they need to be in the US market for that

Defaced , (edited )

This is why the whole situation exists, IMO if there was a reason to believe China is trying to influence united states citizens, then this wouldn't even be a discussion. There are probably hundreds of Chinese companies that operate in the US, why is tik tok signaled out? Because there's probably a reason they're being singled out. It might be nothing, but I'm inclined to think that the people who signed the bill know more than what they're letting on for national security reasons.

Cqrd ,

Look at any security analysis done on it and you'll see the insane amount of information it collects from every single user is absolutely stunning. They definitely use their influence and knowledge of individuals to drive opinion of those who use their platform.

lud ,

There are probably hundreds of Chinese companies that operate in the US, why is tik tok signaled out?

Because it's an enormous company with a lot of influence on people. If they actually influence people in that way, I don't know but they could quite easily.

Personally I don't care about TikTok.

Woozythebear ,

Yeah I watched this dude show me a video of a device that opens jars and now I am thinking about becoming a spy for the Chinese government.

Maggoty ,

But they can't continue to make money this way. It will be seen as control. So they're stuck creating a competitor or just writing off the US market.

wise_pancake ,

Yeah I think they're angling for a reversal, if not they'll sell and probably take some massive non voting share of the venture along with a bunch of billionaires.

Woozythebear ,

They won't sell lol, like why would they? If they truly are owned by the Chinese government why would they sell it to an American company?

treadful ,
@treadful@lemmy.zip avatar

The public that wants TikTok will get TikTok, and the public is going to stop pestering politicians about it.

Has their user base mobilized at all? Maybe it's just because I don't use TikTok but I haven't really heard much from their users about the ban. Which has been kind of unexpected.

firadin ,

Apparently TikTok sent out push notifications telling users to call their representatives. Minors were being provided instructions with their representatives' phone numbers and contact info, but didn't even know who they were calling and were asking basic questions like "What is Congress?"

Kind of shows the amount of power TikTok has over American youth.

Hildegarde ,

And facebook tells its users to vote. Encouraging people to make their voices heard and engage in the democratic process is a good thing.

Car ,

"Vote to participate in democracy! Here's some local voting resources"

vs

"Vote to protect our interests! Tell your representative that they are killing free speech if they don't listen to me"

Stovetop ,

I'd say absolutely, if Cambridge Analytica wasn't a thing. I'd honestly rather have people not vote than be motivated to go vote because they think the liberal communists are putting fluoride in water to make frogs gay.

It's somehow always the organizations and individuals who are trying to manipulate people that seem to care the most about people's voices being heard in politics. Churches, social media, daytime TV, that crazy uncle you don't like to talk to at family gatherings...

vaultdweller013 ,
@vaultdweller013@sh.itjust.works avatar

Hey some of us are the crazy cousin saying you should vote while also advocating pissing on the floor when your job tries to deny bathroom rights.

Stovetop ,

I'd prefer to have you as my cousin instead of the one I have who hates brown people and believes Trump won the 2020 election.

vaultdweller013 ,
@vaultdweller013@sh.itjust.works avatar

Only if ya can deal with ranting about how modern cars suck due to overuse of electronics and half crazed rants about guns and how we should bring back neighborhood militias.

conciselyverbose ,

An enemy state giving kids a script of nonsense to harass politicians with is absolutely not a good thing.

Serinus ,

Rival is better than enemy, but yes. We're as friendly with China as we are enemies. It's complicated, but I don't want the simple version to be the narrative.

conciselyverbose ,

They're not a rival. They're a hostile power.

We are both dependent on each other because that's how the global economy works, but we are not friends and there is no possible path to friendship unless one of our countries has an extremely bloody revolution and completely changes our mechanism of government.

Our core ideologies are not compatible.

someguy3 ,

I love how they demonstrated they aren't influencing people by sending out a mass message telling people what to do. It doesn't get any more comical than that.

Maggoty ,

Malign influence. Telling people to participate in democracy isn't a bad thing.

JJROKCZ ,

Yes but telling an army of thirteen year olds doing dance videos to call representatives is worthless, if anything it hurts TikToks argument since it proves they’re doing the influencing of Americans that the government wants them not doing

Maggoty ,

So you've never used TikTok. Good to know.

someguy3 , (edited )

You missed the entire point. They declared 1) We are not doing anything of that sort, then: 2) they did exactly things of that sort. It's like a slap stick comedy show.

Woozythebear ,

https://bowman.house.gov/2023/3/news-rep-bowman-leads-20-social-media-creators-at-press-conference-opposing-tiktok-ban

You just haven't been paying attention.

rockSlayer ,

When you're forced to participate in capitalism, your only option is to play the game. I agree, this is mostly just a bluff.

Maggoty ,

Why though? Why would they give up their trade secrets? They have a global market.

simplejack ,
@simplejack@lemmy.world avatar

They could sell the user accounts and content and let another company clip that into their own recommendation algo.

I’ve been a part of a few tech acquisitions that have worked this way. They keep their secret sauce but hand over the community.

Maggoty ,

Yeah that's certainly possible. I just don't think it will go the way people are thinking.

lud ,

The question is if anyone would buy it without the algorithm and the other stuff worth money. Users by themselves aren't very useful if everyone leaves after a day.

simplejack ,
@simplejack@lemmy.world avatar

It would come down to price. I’m sure someone would pay for the content, accounts, and brand. But what dollar amount are we talking about when the algo isn’t on the table.

Serinus ,

The algorithm either isn't as valuable as they believe or the government's concern is legitimate and we have a real problem.

corsicanguppy ,

The public [who] wants TikTok will get TikTok

In my family and peer group, the people who want to use tiktok and the people who could get and use a VPN to access a side-loaded tiktok app, has no intersect group. It's just a bridge too far for all of them.

I'll push them onto the fediverse yet.

WillySpreadum ,
@WillySpreadum@lemmy.world avatar

Worst part about Lemmy being a tech heavy space is that so many users spout shit like “They’re not banning it, just deplatforming it” like yes, dipshit, that’s effectively a ban for something like 99% of people. You think 100,000,000 people are gonna fucking sideload the app? Love this place but it can be a bubble sometimes.

ArmokGoB ,

Deplatforming is equivalent to banning in basically every instance. The public town square doesn't exist in the digital world we all operate in. Change my mind.

qwerty ,

Situations like this are a good opportunity to increase the rate of tech literacy in a broader population or to promote decentralized solutions, but unfortunately that's a pipe dream.

wewbull ,

Fediverse TikTok = TikToot?

kirklennon ,

TikTok's daily active users in the U.S. is also just about 5% of ByteDance's DAUs worldwide, said one of the sources.

So much drama in the US over this but it's apparently merely a money-losing afterthought for its owner.

Album ,
@Album@lemmy.ca avatar

It's almost like making money is not the primary purpose of this website 🤔

whoreticulture ,

Or ... maybe the US isn't the only country in the world?

Album ,
@Album@lemmy.ca avatar

Fwiw I'm not American.

whoreticulture , (edited )

It's not worth anything, your argument was that the US being such a small percentage of tiktoks userbase meant that the American market is only worthwhile to TikTok as a spying tool. Which does not make any sense.

I'm saying that tiktok has other markets in other countries, and the US only represents a small part of their global reach, so of course tiktok would only be a small percentage of their userbase.

Jimmycakes ,

Lmao yeah OK 👍. Name any other country.

whoreticulture ,

I have a Geography degree lmao, but also, you're an asshole. I don't even know what you're trying to accomplish with this comment.

Xylight ,
@Xylight@lemdro.id avatar

he's being sarcastic (im pretty sure)

wewbull ,

Your sensing of humour is failing.

whoreticulture ,

Didn't seem like a joke to me, just seemed dismissive and rude. 🤷🏻‍♂️ People on this site frequently pull this 🤓oh yeah name a whatever🤓 shit unironically, so unless Lemmy gets a culture makeover I'm going to assume people are being assholes.

Jimmycakes ,

All that talking and you still ain't even named one other country besides united states. The whole world is united States.

Woozythebear ,

Yeah same with Facebook, Twitter, Reddit, Instagram, fox news, CNN, News max, Msnbc and every single other media outlet by that logic. Apparently any company not owned Merica is propaganda too.

Buttons ,
@Buttons@programming.dev avatar

I've always wondered what would happen if ByteDance sells TikTok for $5 to a US Citizen who frequently visits China for lavish vacations, and that US Citizen decide to keep all the algorithms the same.

If China has an ulterior motive with TIkTok, can't they just find a US Citizen to carry out their ulterior motive?

Serinus ,

No. The bill is quite specific about that.

wise_pancake ,

This means absolutely nothing.

How much of their advertising revenue comes from the US. They have shopping, I’ll bet the US buys the most.

China already has livestream shopping, it’s still relatively novel in the US. Bytedance has to compete with other local competitors in China, hating a nice external source of revenue in the US fuelling these Chinese battle is a huge boon.

I know the article says loss making app, but I bet a lot of money goes back to R&D creating the loss. They pay massive sums to get merchants to sell on their app for example.

kirklennon ,

This means absolutely nothing. How much of their advertising revenue comes from the US.

To quote the article again, "The U.S. accounted for about 25% of TikTok overall revenues last year, said a separate source with direct knowledge." Honestly, I think that makes the case for shutting it down even stronger. TikTok isn't in some growth-at-all-costs phase in the US. It's likely near its peak potential userbase. If they haven't been able to make it profitable by now, that doesn't bode well for it ever becoming significantly profitable. Absent the legal issues, they think it's still worth at least trying, but as it stands, it's just a lot of money in and, just as quickly, out, with nothing to show for it at the end of the day.

firadin ,

You're assuming its a profit-focused endeavor rather than a propaganda arm of the Chinese government.

kirklennon ,

I think it's a privately-owned, profit-focused endeavor that is nevertheless beholden to the Chinese government and which the government wants to take as much advantage of as possible. Deep down, I'm certain that their sole goal is to make as much money for themselves as they possibly can. If they also need to exfiltrate some data and send it to the CCP, that's just a necessary business expense.

cybersin ,

Bro, Facebook facilitated a genocide, and this is who we want to buy TikTok? What action was taken against fb?

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/09/myanmar-facebooks-systems-promoted-violence-against-rohingya-meta-owes-reparations-new-report/

"US coRpOrAtiOn goOd!"

firadin ,

Not US corporation good, just US corporation = US controlled. This isn't a morality play, it's a national security play.

Buttons ,
@Buttons@programming.dev avatar

If TikTok's purpose is to spread Chinese propaganda, can't they just find a US Citizen that can run the website for them?

"Yeah, it's my personal website where I exercise my 1st Amendment rights, also it has 100 million daily users and I happen to agree with China on a lot of things." If a US Citizen were to say this, there would be nothing illegal about it I think?

vaultdweller013 ,
@vaultdweller013@sh.itjust.works avatar

We are talking about the same country right? The US committed the fucking Tuskegee experiments, MK ultra, and more recently Gitmo as a whole. If some dumbfuck wants to be a Chinese puppet I wouldnt put it past the feds to off em, shame they commited suicide by shooting themself in the back of the head twelve times with a shotgun.

Buttons , (edited )
@Buttons@programming.dev avatar

Okay, but I'm more interested in intra-legal reasons this couldn't be done.

I'm sure they could find 2, 3, or 3000 US Citizens who are willing to sell out to China, and then TikTok would be owned by US Citizens, but would still be doing what China wants.

vaultdweller013 ,
@vaultdweller013@sh.itjust.works avatar

I was moreso pointing out the obvious and quick solution. On a more legal situation, I suspect that said individual could be taken down as a foreign agent, most of the laws around that shit from the cold war are still on the books. The fact of the matter is youre are coming at this from the perspective that we dont have laws around what foreign agents are allowed to do, Americans can certainly be foreign agents just ask my 2x great grandfather who was snitching on the Bund who were almost all American born.

firadin ,

Well China is refusing to divest, i.e. sell it to a US owner so clearly that's not an option for them. If it was about the money they would have.

Snapz ,

Also, hard to quantify how much of the popularity of tiktok is driven by US content globally, versus locally. You lose all that UGC is you cut out US

wise_pancake ,

5% of customers driving 25% of revenue is a market you want to invest in.

Amazon wasn't profitable for how many years? It's the exact same play. Take a loss to create something artificially desirable, strangle the competition and lock up your walled garden, then crank the prices.

I've talked with merchants TikTok Shop recruited, TikTok was paying them a ton to sell there, eating their processing fees, their shipping costs, and paying for massive discounts to customers so they could juice their metrics.

They're starting to crank up their fees this spring and summer.

Same with advertising, advertisers want to go to TikTok, but I'm sure most of the actual spend is happening outside the app on influencers. TikTok wants that pie too.

Taking a loss means nothing in this context

ramble81 ,

“Livestream shopping” is that like QVC or something?

wise_pancake ,

Yeah, kinda

You watch TikTok, someone shills a product, you buu it with a button that pops up, or you click into their store to buy their cosmetics line.

nieceandtows ,

Looks like they're saying it's running at a loss and is valued at $50b, so that Musk would end up buying it off their hands.

nondescripthandle ,

If they want Musks attention they should have valued it at $69b

Lemminary ,

Oh no! Anyway...

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