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Numberone , (edited )

Is linked to excess deaths? Technically it could be saving lives at a population scale. I doubt that's the case, but it could be. I'll read the article now and find out.

Edit: it doesn't seem to say anything regarding "normal" auto related deaths. They're focusing on the bullshit designation of an unfinished product as "autopilot",and a (small) subset of specific cases that are particularly aggregious, where there were 5-10 seconds of lead time into an incident. In these cases a person who was paying attention wouldn't have been in the accident.

Also some clarity edits.

NikkiDimes ,

Well, did you find out?

Tja ,

OP should come back in one hour and say "nvm, I found out".

Numberone ,

Added, sorry for the delay.

Tja ,

Well, you kissed an opportunity for some Lols and gave us boring information instead. Boo!

Numberone ,

And now you know something about me😋

Numberone ,

Added. Sorry for the delay.

TypicalHog ,

As I said! People in this thread are dumb (IMO). If they read the article they would literally see most of these crashes were because of autopilot misuse. I'm highly confident even with these deaths - there would be more then this if there was no autopilot at all and if these people were driving manually. I got no data on this but that's just my hunch.

NutWrench ,
@NutWrench@lemmy.world avatar

"self-driving cars" are not going to be a thing within our lifetimes. It's a problem that requires MUCH smarter AIs than we currently have.

Martineski ,

To say that FSD won't be a thing in next ~70-90 years is insane to me. Lol

NarrativeBear ,

Some of us are 30-45 and not 6-16

Martineski ,

He said "within our lifetimes" so it only makes sense that I assumed that he's talking about currently living generations and not himself or a specific generation. :p

Toes ,
@Toes@ani.social avatar

This is speculation, but were most of them from people who disabled the safety features?

machinin ,

Probably not

AmbiguousProps ,

No, I doubt most people care enough to disable them.

Toes , (edited )
@Toes@ani.social avatar

I heard it's fairly common for people to disarm the feature that requires you to hold the wheel.

Edit: it would be nice if someone explained why I'm being downvoted lol

NotMyOldRedditName ,

Anything remotely supportive of Tesla on lemmy usually results in massive downvotes.

You've angered the hive mind by suggesting people are actively trying to bypass teslas saftey system so they can be idiots thus making it not wholly Teslas fault.

And yes, many people are actively using bypass devices, but not all.

Toes ,
@Toes@ani.social avatar

Yeah that's kinda what I figured. Thanks

NotMyOldRedditName ,

You don't have to disable it to beat the safety system.

They were all pretty much due to inattentiveness, though. Many were drunk drivers.

Many do use defeat devices as well, but not all.

This was all brand new when it first came out and we didn't really have proper regulations for it. Things have gotten more restrictive, but people do still find ways around it and there's no fool proof solution to this as humans are smart and will find ways around things.

PlexSheep ,

Fuck cars, those ones specifically

dependencyinjection ,

When I see this comment it makes me wonder, how do you feel when you see someone driving a car?

Should I feel guilty for owning a car. I’m 41 and I got my first car when I was 40, because I changed careers and it was 50 miles away.

I rarely used it outside of work and it was a means to get me there. I now work remote 3 days so only drive 2.

I don’t have social media or shop with companies like Amazon. I have just been to my first pro-Palestine protest.

Am I to be judged for using a car?

machinin ,

Probably not you personally, but the system, oil companies, and people like Musk and his followers that want to prioritize private driving over public transportation.

I say fuck cars, and I have one too. I try to avoid using it, but it's easy to be lazy. I'm also fortunate to live someplace with great public transportation.

Don't take it personally, just realize life can be better if we could learn to live without these huge power-hungry cargo containers taking us everywhere.

hydration9806 ,

I believe what they mean is "fuck car centric societal design". No reasonable person should be mad that someone is using the current system to live their life (i.e. driving to work). What the real goal is spreading awareness that a car centric society is inherently isolating and stressful, and that one more lane does absolutely nothing to lessen traffic (except for like a month ish)

PlexSheep ,

That's a good question!

The short answer is no. Cars suck for many reasons, but it's a fact in many parts of the world that you cannot be a functioning member of a society without one, especially if your government doesn't get that cars suck or you live somewhere remote.

How do I feel when I see someone driving a car? Mostly my feelings don't change, because it is so normalized. But I get somewhat angry when I see uselessly huge cars that are obviously just a waste of resources. I have fun ridiculing car centric road and city design, but it's the bad kind of fun.

I am also very careful around cars, both while I'm in and outside of them. Cars are very heavy and drivers are infamous for being bad at controlling them. This isn't their fault, it's super easy to make mistakes while driving, you just have to move your feet a little too fast or move your hand a little too far and boom, someone is dead.

Think about driving on a highway. If the guy next to you accidentally moves the wheel a little more than usual, that car will crash into you, creating a horrendous scene. It's just too prone to failure, and failure will probably mean person damages. For this reason, cars are legitimately scaring me, even if I have to deal with it.

Sorry if that does not make sense to you. I'm still trying to figure all this out for myself and I'm not always rational about these topics, because seeing the potential of our cities being wasted by car centric design makes me angry.

NarrativeBear ,

Cars linked to hundreds of crashes, dozens of deaths.

antlion ,
@antlion@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

These are spanning from the earliest adopters, up until August of last year. Plenty of idiots using a cruise control system and trusting their lives to beta software. Not the same as the current FSD software.

Your own car insurance isn’t based on your driving skill when you had your learners permit. When Tesla takes on the liability and insurance for CyberCab, you’ll know it’s much safer than human drivers.

Hegar ,
@Hegar@kbin.social avatar

Plenty of idiots using a cruise control system and trusting their lives to beta software.

Using it exactly as it was marketed doesn't make you an idiot.

halcyoncmdr ,
@halcyoncmdr@lemmy.world avatar

You really want to get into reality versus marketing in this world? Very little marketing actually shows real world products and use cases in a real world environment. Heck, advertising often doesn't even show the actual product at all.

Your McDonald's burger is NEVER going to look like the marketing photo. You don't want to get anywhere near that "ice cream" or "milkshake" from the ad either, mashed potatoes and glue are often used for those advertising replacements.

This doesn't even get into things like disclaimers and product warnings, or people ignoring them.

Thorny_Insight ,

The car prompts you every single time you enable this system to keep your eyes on the road and be prepaired to take over at any moment.

machinin , (edited )

That's the fine print. He's talking about the marketing - the influencer videos, Musk's tweets of those videos, Tesla's own marketing videos, etc.

machinin ,

But Tesla had a video in 2016 saying that people were only in the driver seat for legal reasons. Musk even said it was only an issue with regulators.

Oh, who to believe!

Notice, when talking about new features, Tesla shills love to promote how great it is and how often it saves then from problems (I can't imagine how badly they must drive. We intervened on our grandmother after a couple of close calls). Then, when there is news about these accidents, they are so quick to blame the driver.

Also, all these problems are with the old versions, the new versions clean up everything.

I do agree with OP here about one thing - don't take anything Tesla and Musk say about the cars' capabilities seriously (including how that might impact stock price) until Tesla is willing to take financial responsibility for accidents. Until then, it's all Musk bullshit.

ReveredOxygen ,
@ReveredOxygen@sh.itjust.works avatar

Great. Let me know when Tesla takes on the liability and insurance for CyberCab

froh42 ,

“If you’ve got, at scale, a statistically significant amount of data that shows conclusively that the autonomous car has, let’s say, half the accident rate of a human-driven car, I think that’s difficult to ignore,” Musk said.

That's a very problematic claim - and it might only be true if you compare completely unassited vehicles to L2 Teslas.

Other brands also have a plethora of L2 features, but they are marketed and designed in a different way. The L2 features are activate but designed in a way to keep the driver engaged in driving.

So L2 features are for better safety, not for a "wow we live in the future" show effect.

For example lane keeping in my car - you don't notice it when driving, it is just below your level of attention. But when I'm unconcentrated for a moment the car just stays on the lane, even on curving roads. It's just designed to steer a bit later than I would do. (Also, even before, the wheel turns minimally lighter into the direction to keep the car center of lane, than turning it to the other direction - it's just below what you notice, however if you don't concentrate on that effect)

Adaptive speed control is just sold as adaptive speed control - it did notice it uses radar AND the cameras once, as it considers. my lane free as soon the car in front me clears the lane markings with its wheels (when changing lanes)

It feels like the software in my car could do a lot more, but its features are undersold.

The combination of a human driver and the driver assist systems in combination makes driving a lot safer than relying on the human or the machine alone.

In fact the braking assistant has once stopped my car in tight traffic before I could even react, as the guy in front of me suddenly slammed their brakes. If the system had failed and not detected the situation then it would have been my job to react in time. (I did react, but can't say if I might have been fast enough with reaction times)

What Tesla does with technology is impressive, but I feel the system could be so. much better if they didn't compromise saftey in the name of marketing and hyperbole.

If Tesla's Autopilot was designed frim ground up to keep the driver engaged, I believe it would really be the safest car on the road.

I feel they are rather designed to be able to show off "cool stuff".

ForgotAboutDre ,

Tesla's autopilot isn't the best around. It's just the most deployed and advertised. People creating autopilot responsibly don't beta test them with the kind of idiots that think Tesla autopilot is the best approach.

Thorny_Insight ,

If Tesla's self-driving isn't the best one around then which one is? I'm not aware of any other system capable of doing what FSD does. Manufacturers like Mercedes may have more trust in their system because it only works on a limited number of hand-picked roads and under ideal conditions. I still wouldn't say that what essentially is a train is better system for getting around than a car with full freedom to take you anywhere.

machinin , (edited )

All throughout these comments, you seem deeply, deeply confused. Let's go over this sloooowly.

Mercedes has two autonomous systems. Let's call them MB FSD and MB Autodrive.

MB FSD has similar features to Tesla's. It isn't geo-restricted. You have to pay attention, just like Tesla. It isn't true autonomous driving, just like Tesla. If you have an accident, you are responsible, just like Tesla.

MB Autodrive is another feature set. It is L3 autonomy, which means it is limited geographically and the driver should be available to take over when prompted. It also means that the driving is completely autonomous. The driver can be reading, playing on their phone, or simply laying there with their eyes closed. Mercedes will even take legal and financial responsibility for any accidents that happen on their system.

So, to summarize:

FSD -type systems: Mercedes and Tesla (and many other car makers)

Level 3: not Tesla, Mercedes

True autonomous driving is when the manufacturer takes responsibility for the car's actions. Anything else is assisted driving. Until Tesla takes responsibility for accidents, you can't consider them to have certified autonomous driving.

Is that any clearer to you? After seeing some of your other shilling for Tesla in other posts, maybe there is a reason you don't want to recognize the advantages of other systems?

suction ,

Absolutely correct. It’s so disheartening how many guys like him out there are hurting us all with their admiration for con-men like Trump and Musk and absolute inability to fact check

suction ,

It’s level 2 automation, a lot of other makers have that.
You need to look past the juicy marketing language, there’s standards and norms which Tesla cannot go beyond because then it’ll be illegal to drive the cars on public roads.

autotldr Bot ,

This is the best summary I could come up with:

In March 2023, a North Carolina student was stepping off a school bus when he was struck by a Tesla Model Y traveling at “highway speeds,” according to a federal investigation that published today.

The Tesla driver was using Autopilot, the automaker’s advanced driver-assist feature that Elon Musk insists will eventually lead to fully autonomous cars.

NHTSA was prompted to launch its investigation after several incidents of Tesla drivers crashing into stationary emergency vehicles parked on the side of the road.

Most of these incidents took place after dark, with the software ignoring scene control measures, including warning lights, flares, cones, and an illuminated arrow board.

Tesla issued a voluntary recall late last year in response to the investigation, pushing out an over-the-air software update to add more warnings to Autopilot.

The findings cut against Musk’s insistence that Tesla is an artificial intelligence company that is on the cusp of releasing a fully autonomous vehicle for personal use.

The original article contains 788 words, the summary contains 158 words. Saved 80%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!

ForgotAboutDre ,

Cameras and AI aren't a match for radar/lidar. This is the big issue with the approach to autonomy Tesla's take. You've only a guess if there are hazards in the way.

Most algorithms are designed to work and then be statistically tested. To validate that they work. When you develop an algorithm with AI/machine learning, there is only the statistical step. You have to infer whole systems performance purely from that. There isn't a separate process for verification and validation. It just validation alone.

When something is developed with only statistical evidence of it working you can't be reliably sure it works in most scenarios. Except the exact ones you tested for. When you design an algorithm to work you can assume it works in most scenarios if the result are as expected when you validate it. With machine learning, the algorithm is obscured and uncertain (unless it's only used for parameter optimisation).

Machine learning is never used because it's a better approach. It's only used when the engineers don't know how to develop the algorithm. Once you understand this, you understand the hazard it presents. If you don't understand or refuse to understand this. You build machines that drive into children, deliberately. Through ignorance, greed and arrogance Tesla built a machine that deliberately runs over children.

curiousPJ ,

If Red Bull can be successfully sued for false advertising from their slogan "It gives you wings", I think it stands that Tesla should too.

root ,

There are some real Elon haters out there. I think they're ugly as sin but I'm happy to see more people driving vehicles with all the crazy safety features, even if they aren't perfect.

You're in control of a massive vehicle capable of killing people and destroying property, you're responsible for it.

machinin , (edited )

You're in control of a massive vehicle capable of killing people and destroying property, you're responsible for it.

If only Elon would say something similar when he re-tweets a video of people having sex while the car is on autopilot. Can you guess what he actually said?

brbposting ,

Moran

https://sh.itjust.works/pictrs/image/ac40a320-bdd3-4c39-a4d9-04b5e98a2e93.jpeg

Thorny_Insight ,

I'm quite certain that there will be some humble pie served to the haters in not too distant future. The performance of FSD 12.3.5 is all the proof you need that an actual robotaxi is just around the corner. Disagree with me all you want. All we need to do is wait and see.

However I'm also sure that the cognitive dissonance is going to be so strong for many of these people that even a mountain of evidence is not going to change their mind about it because it's not based in reason in the first place but emotions.

machinin , (edited )

What makes this time any different from the dozens of other times musk had said we're six months away from FSD? When do you think Tesla will take responsibility for accidents that happen while using their software?

If they do that in the next year, I'll gladly eat humble pie. If they can't, will you?

catch22 ,
@catch22@programming.dev avatar

What!!!!!! I thought Elon had it all figured out, No Way!

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1744821656990675184

\s

tearsintherain ,
@tearsintherain@leminal.space avatar

Move fast, break shit.
Fake it till you sell it, then move the goal posts down. Shift human casualties onto individual responsibility, a core libertarian theme.
Profit off the lies because it's too late, money already in the bank.

Eheran ,

Any time now it will be released. Like 7 years ago the taxis.

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