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Apple plans to charge fees for sideloading

Who would've thought? This isn’t going to fly with the EU.

Article 5.3 of the Digital Markets Act (DMA): "The gatekeeper shall not prevent business users from offering the same products or services to end users through third-party online intermediation services or through their own direct online sales channel at prices or conditions that are different from those offered through the online intermediation services of the gatekeeper."

Friendly reminder that you can sideload apps without jailbreaking or paying for a dev account using TrollStore, which utilises core trust bugs to bypass/spoof some app validation keys, on a iPhone XR or newer on iOS 14.0 up to 16.6.1. (ANY version for iPhone X and older)

Install guide: Trollstore

nyankas ,

I‘d be really surprised if Apple tried that.

They have to know that it violates the DMA. And the penalty for violating it can be up to 10% of their yearly worldwide revenue (not earnings!) for the first violation and up to 20% for repeated violations. I don‘t think they‘d risk that, especially as the EU really isn’t known for its leniency when someone intentionally breaks their rules.

sudotstar ,

I'm not too sure that these actions violate the letter of the law here, even though I agree that they're 100% in violation of the spirit of the law.

It's been some years since I've put the mobile development world behind me, in no small part because of Apple's shenanigans, but the way I understand how this might work - Apple may be required to allow "iOS software" to be installed from third party stores, but software that runs on iOS must either be signed using a certificate that only allows installation in a developer or enterprise context (which require explicit and obvious user consent to that specific use case, and come with other restrictions such as the installation only lasting for a limited period of time), or through an "appstore" certificate that allows installation on any device, but the actual application package will need to go through Apple's pipeline (where I believe it gets re-signed before final distribution on the App Store). All certificates, not just the appstore ones, are centrally managed by Apple and they do have the power to revoke, or refuse to renew, any of those certificates at-will.

If my understanding is correct (I'd appreciate if any up-to-date iOS devs could fact-check me), then Apple could introduce or maintain any restrictions they please on handling this final signing step, even if at the end of the day the resulting software is being handed back to developers to self-distribute, they can just refuse to sign the package at all, preventing installation on most consumer iOS devices, and to refuse to re-issue certificates to specific Apple developer accounts they deem in violation of their expected behavior. I haven't read the implementation of the DMA in detail, nor am I a lawyer, so I'm not sure if there are provisions in place that would block either of these actions from Apple, but I do expect that there will be a long game of cat and mouse here as Apple and the EU continue to try and one-up the other's actions.

ClemaX ,
@ClemaX@lemm.ee avatar

But the article of the DMA says that the gatekeeper shall not prevent the business user to serve their product using other conditions than those of the gatekeeper's platform.
I think that would include Apple's publishing guidelines.

sudotstar ,

I think that's the rub, in my theoretical scenario, Apple is not blocking the distribution or sale of iOS applications through third-party means, they'd enforce their existing restrictions on and power over building iOS applications in the first place. Developers would absolutely still be able to distribute unsigned applications - end user iOS devices would just be unable to install them.

It sounds ridiculous to me, and as I wrote earlier, it would be a clear violation of the spirit of the DMA, but I don't see any reason why this scenario would not be technically possible for Apple to pull off.

jvrava9 OP ,
@jvrava9@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

They already make it hard to make an app without xcode

uis ,
@uis@lemmy.world avatar

Installation is part of distribution

anlumo ,

Your description matches my understanding of the process (as someone who left iOS development a few years ago).

I don’t think that the DMA is technical enough to differentiate in this precise manner. Keep in mind that it was written by lawmakers and politicians who mostly don’t know how to even use a smartphone. They'd think that a certificate is a piece of paper with fancy signatures on it.

Eg3 ,

I could be wrong on this, and don’t know all the details in the case, but EU-law is often interpreted teleologically, meaning in a way that is the most in accordance with the objectives and goals of the legislation. So in this case, if Apple is in violation of the spirit of the law, the EU Courts would likely rule against Apple. (source: 1st year law student)

Wogi ,

Velociraptors testing the fence. It may be illegal but they may get away with it if they can argue "no actually'

anlumo ,

On the positive side, those fines could fix the finances of a few smaller EU countries in a single sweep.

uis ,
@uis@lemmy.world avatar

...true

penquin , (edited )
@penquin@lemm.ee avatar

I fucking hate Apple with a passion.

Edit: many people seem to be a bit confused. I don't own any apple garbage, and never will. I've only had an iPhone back in 2016 for a little while then replaced that shit with a pixel 6p. I don't buy shit that makes my life difficult.

perpetually_fried ,

Show me on the doll where Apple touched you.

anlumo ,

Does that doll have a wallet?

uis ,
@uis@lemmy.world avatar

Pockets

sunbeam60 ,

Comment of the Year!

penquin ,
@penquin@lemm.ee avatar

I don't get many of the English jokes/sarcasm, so not sure what to answer you. I just don't buy their garbage.

BorgDrone ,

Why? What have they done to you? If you don’t like their products, simply don’t buy them.

Croquette ,

Apple has made a lot of anti-consumer decisions. And since Apple is a big market force, other companies follow suite when they pull off shit like that. There is a legitimate reason to not like Apple.

sunbeam60 ,

It’s not that simple.

Blue chat boxes affect everyone. RCS is a stepping stone but my daughter wouldn’t be caught dead with a green chat box. Tell me how that isn’t Apple using their dominance to prevent other players?

FaceTime (which they PROMISED to open up but never did) affects everyone.

amir_s89 ,

The FaceTime software, would have done plentiful towards the industry & others, if it became open sourced.

But nope, they decided to make it exclusive for only within the Apple product bubble. Now we are supporting with so many video apl software/ tools. It's just fragmented. It's okey with competition but this is far too much. Also the quality, safety have lessoned.

BorgDrone ,

But nope, they decided to make it exclusive for only within the Apple product bubble

No, they didn’t decide to do that at all. Not opening up FaceTime is a direct result of a patent lawsuit by VirnetX

amir_s89 ,

Learning new things daily.
Appreciate for the link.

BorgDrone ,

Blue chat boxes affect everyone

How do they affect you if you don’t even have an iPhone? You’ll never see those blue bubbles.

Besides, the defacto standard for chat apps is WhatsApp, hardly anyone uses iMessage anyway.

FaceTime (which they PROMISED to open up but never did) affects everyone.

This was due to a patent lawsuit. Blame VirnetX, not Apple.

sunbeam60 ,

If you are in a peer group of teens where 70% have iPhones the lack of decent interoperability with Android affects the 30% that can’t be part of the conversations.

It is not true that WhatsApp is the defacto standard everywhere. Might be true for you but large pockets where that ain’t true.

I am blaming VirnetX but we both know it could be solved if Apple wanted to solve it.

focusedkiwibear ,

sounds like your daughter is a typical sheep - perhaps THAT'S the issue you ought to try having an issue with rather than a company doing normal business.

sunbeam60 ,

LOL. What a charmer you are.

penquin ,
@penquin@lemm.ee avatar

What makes you think I buy their garbage? Literal garbage.

BorgDrone ,

Then what are you bitching about?

penquin ,
@penquin@lemm.ee avatar

Your mom

returnofthemack ,

Sent from an iPhone

penquin ,
@penquin@lemm.ee avatar

Nope. I'm an android user.

WindowsEnjoyer ,

Why? Just get Android. Plenty of choices.

penquin ,
@penquin@lemm.ee avatar

I've had one iPhone once and that was back in 2016.had if for a couple of months and it made me hate life and got rid of it and got me a pixel 6p. I've always been an android and Linux person. So, yeah, I hate apple with a passion

focusedkiwibear ,

it sounds like tying your shoes probably makes your life difficult

maynarkh ,

Top comment by Chris (@SwiftySanders) Liked by 7 people

I think all these changes that the EU is doing really only benefit large development firms like Spotify and Epic at the expense of the smaller developers. EU is adding additional regulations and requirements from Apple which smaller developers and indie developers will now have to comply with which will act as barriers to entry for some. That’s bad for competition…which I think was ultimately the goal for Epic and Spotify.

I love this braindead take regurgitated again and again and again. The DMA specifically does not apply to anyone smaller than a big monopolistic company. Apple barely made the cut themselves. The whole regulation is about forcing six companies - the Act only applies to them at all - to open up their walled gardens because they are strangling their respective markets and killing innovation, consumer choice and competition.

SwiftySanders ,
@SwiftySanders@urbanists.social avatar

@maynarkh @jvrava9 Its always brain dead when you don't agree. regulations have consequences positive and negative. People think you can just add these regulations in a vacuum and there won't be any follow on effects which is delusional.

RobotToaster ,
@RobotToaster@mander.xyz avatar

Least neoliberal new urbanist

maynarkh ,

It's brain dead because it's a kneejerk response without anything backing it up.

EU regulations have a massive positive day-to-day effect on my life. It's not like they get everything right, but on the grand scale, it's working better than any other regulatory system I know.

SwiftySanders ,
@SwiftySanders@urbanists.social avatar

@maynarkh You think app store policies and eu legislation only impacts you. 🤣

Large companies sponsor regulations all the time in an effort to make it harder for the smaller players or just plain greed.

Apple alluded to this in court that implementation of the and that the end result would absolutely be worse for smaller players than what was there before. Welp! 🤷🏾‍♂️ Smaller player gets screwed.

https://x.com/nikitabier/status/1750592825060921353?s=46&t=kj2zDgWA66Lbbc0rNac6uw

maynarkh ,

Apple didn't sponsor the DMA, it was fighting tooth and nail against it. In general, EU politicians are harder to buy because they are more fragmented, and bribery is still illegal BTW.

That said, on the one hand, this fee structure is actually illegal under the DMA, the "core platform fee" nonsense is specifically illegal, and the EU is already on their ass about it.

On the other hand, this is just as if MSFT made Internet Explorer super expensive to license after they got hit by the same kind of regulation way back when. This just means that if you are an iOS app dev, you might want to release on something other than the App Store. I expect Google Play being available on iPhones pretty fast for example, or the Windows Store, or a bunch of other third party stores, and Apple can't even preinstall or prefer the App Store on iOS over them. All the App Store being more expensive will do is make App Store fade to irrelevancy in the long run.

dan1101 ,
@dan1101@lemm.ee avatar

That is hilarious that they expect iOS users to pay a fee to sideload apps. Like comically evil.

db2 ,

But not at all surprising.

OpenStars ,
@OpenStars@startrek.website avatar

I don't pay anything to side load apps on my phone.

Probably bc I switched to Android.:-)

And I am never ever going back!

Welt ,

You sound like one of those people who said they'd move to Canada when Trump got elected the first time, and didn't.

CommanderCloon ,

... more like someone who already moved away from the US after prior episodes of shitty politics, and was vindicated when Trump was elected

OpenStars ,
@OpenStars@startrek.website avatar

Lolz!:-)

There are several women who would be alive today if they had done so...

Stubbornness can be a positively adaptive trait, but obstinacy in the face of facts not so much, and the same with squeezing your eyes shut REALLY tight to avoid knowing what is going on right in front of you.

CaptainBasculin ,

This was how it worked for years for developers. First step of testing your app on an iOS device you have is to pay Apple a developer fee. This has been a thing even back in iOS 3 times.

dan1101 ,
@dan1101@lemm.ee avatar

Is it just a one time fee? And what were you paying for, testing to see if it qualified for the app store?

Seems like sideloading would be a different path and goal unless Apple is trying to retain control of that too. To me a lot of the point of users sideloading is to load whatever they want, not what the corporation that made the OS will allow.

jvrava9 OP ,
@jvrava9@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Its $100/year for sideloading an infinite amount of alls that don't disappear. If you don't pay, you can only sideload up to 3 at a time and they will disappear after a week

fartsparkles ,

I don’t think that’s true at present. You can do it with the free account to sign builds for your own devices. If you need to run a build on a device that isn’t your own, you’ll need a developer account to get a certificate to sign your builds. It’s not great but you don’t have to pay to test your own app out on your own devices.

jvrava9 OP ,
@jvrava9@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

You can only test 3 apps at a time and they disappear after a week. It doesn't matter if the device is yours or not.

altima_neo ,
@altima_neo@lemmy.zip avatar

It's not the users they're charging, it's the developers. Instead of having to pay 30%, they're asking for 27% if they're selling their app side loaded.

Defeating the whole purpose.

steal_your_face ,
@steal_your_face@lemmy.ml avatar

Those numbers are from using outside payment methods and not side loading.

Sage1918 ,

And developers move the cost to users by increasing price on ios

TenderfootGungi ,

You are both correct. They do stop things that would be ok, on say, a windows machine. For example, intercepting text messages at the system level. It prevents a lot of mischief but also stops legitimate software.

But we can already look at the Android market for guidance on what will happen. Few Android users venture out of the official store. It will take a large company with must-have apps to get people to go to another marketplace. Like Steam, Epic, or Facebook. Companies that either want to keep their cut or want to collect data to sell. This will likely not matter at all for small developers. They don’t have the clout.

Sage1918 ,

There is this god-tier unofficial store called f-droid. Installing app from there is always a joy

maynarkh ,

There is one aspect people don't really talk about yet, because it is not just about "allowing sideloading". The law says "no self-preferencing". That means that installing an app from for example F-Droid has to take the exact same amount of taps with the exact same UX as installing something from Google Play. Same goes for the App Store. The point is not to allow sideloading, but to erase the word sideloading from the vocabulary of the platform and make it just like Windows in that regard.

This is not just bringing iOS to where Android is, Android is still not compliant yet either. Neither is Windows by the way, because of how they treat Edge.

thehatfox ,
@thehatfox@lemmy.world avatar

The only way it could work out badly for smaller software developers is if companies like Apple decide to recover their losses by charging heavily for development tools and resources.

If they can’t have walls around app distribution they might try and put them around app development instead.

9point6 ,

App developers add value to their platform, any wall erected there would be torn down in moments. It would be biting the hand that feeds

dan1101 ,
@dan1101@lemm.ee avatar

It's North Korea in the Apple world.

skulblaka ,
@skulblaka@startrek.website avatar

They've been doing that since the beginning. You need a "developer license" in order to publish an app. Back in the day it was like $50 a year I think, but I haven't done ios dev in about a decade so I don't know if that's changed.

jvrava9 OP ,
@jvrava9@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

A developer account is $100/year right now

Kecessa ,

I had a user on here tell me the DMA is proof that Valve can't be considered to be in a position of monopoly with Steam because they don't show up on the list of companies concerned... People don't understand what the DMA is at all.

Aopen ,
@Aopen@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

To be exact, DMA applies to platforms with >45M users in EU

maynarkh ,

Not even just that, you have to have at least 7.5B EUR turnover or 75B EUR market cap, AND 45M end users AND 10k business users AND keep this up for 3 years.

And even then it's not automatic, you get nominated and get arguments, and only then you have to follow it.

I mentioned the six companies because they are the only ones that this currently applies to, and that will be the case for the foreseeable future as well. And even from them, it's specific products. MacOS is not in scope for example, despite iOS being scoped in.

Holzkohlen ,

MacOS is not in scope for example, despite iOS being scoped in.

But is MacOS as much of a walled garden than iOS? Not in the slightest, right? I'm fairly certain you can install random software on MacOS can't you?

maynarkh ,

It doesn't matter if it's a walled garden with the DMA. Yes, MacOS is not in scope, because it doesn't have enough users, but Android and Windows totally are.

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