buh-buh-buh but what about when I refer to mechanical engineering! what about when I need to adjust my cam timing! oh no!
I dunno, I would broadly agree and I think that it's probably not a good thing to be calling people, but I do have two complaints I would like to file with the official board that governs this sort of thing. Neither of them relate to the word's banned usage, however. Of course, it's still gonna be a little weird.
One is that I like -tard as a suffix, I think it has a kind of satisfying mouthfeel in pronunciation, I think potentially we need some more words that use it, and I don't think that as a kind of, like, workaround, or way to say the slur more. I kind of wish the suffix was dissociated from the slur, so this was more possible. The only other word I can think of that does this is mustard, which apparently arrived at a similar pronunciation through a different etymological route. I dunno, I find it to be a kind of like, inherently hilarious word, or satisfying word to say. Unusual, maybe, maybe like an unusual morpheme pairing. Maybe I have some level of just like unprocessed shitheadery though, that's very possible. I also kind of wish there was a way that actually worked to de-escalate the weight of a slur, to rob it of it's weight. Obviously, taking it back doesn't do much, because it's just going to be subject to the same in-ground out-ground dynamic, a la the n-word, right. It's okay if gay people call each other or themselves the f-slur, it's not okay if some straight guy walks in and does it. More positive associations might work but then, you know, doubtful that would work in the first place, and also you'd probably not see a lot of people wanting to take the L and push it on that one because everyone would hate them for it, both the people insulted and those who would use it as a insult.
Also, I don't like this kind of mentality more broadly of "oh you gotta be more creative when you insult people.". Some people are so boring and uninterestingly fucked, that they aren't worth the creativity you expend upon insulting them. I think it just kind of shadows the problem here. No, you don't want to say the word because it denigrates an entire group of people when you use it in an insulting manner. There's not really anything there about creativity, or lack thereof, that makes it a moral problem. Sometimes you do need a low-rent insult, it should just be one that isn't a slur. Call someone a shitheel, or something, it's easier than this, there are plenty to choose from.
Okay, thirdly, I think there's also a broader, and interesting question here, of, how an insult being based on like, unchangeable characteristics makes it more mean or more of a slur, right. But then that sort of, leaves out things we might consider as being changeable, like, say, body weight, which I would also say is a dick move, to insult someone on the basis of their weight, or to constantly bring it up, or anything like that. On the other hand, insulting someone on the basis of their eye color is maybe like, very antiquated, still potentially mean, and potentially very mean in like, maybe india? But I dunno so much if it would be considered a slur, really, as much as just kind of a very weird thing to bring up. Insulting someone on the curliness of their hair, maybe, but then that could be seen as a proxy for other things, just like most traits. It's hard to do this with something too obvious because most of them have been historically associated with like, eugenics and shit like that. Maybe if you were to insult someone based on how big their feet are or something, that might be a more socially acceptable or lighthearted insult, even if it's still mean.
We also have, like, technically all characteristics are unchangeable, if we live in a deterministic universe, right? Insulting someone's intelligence, even if they don't have autism or down syndrome or what have you, is still insulting a deterministic aspect of their character, which was sort of unavoidable for them to stumble into. If you insult someone for even, their choice of boots, right, you are just insulting a characteristic about them which was ultimately inevitable, the result of many dominoes falling into place. I think perhaps when we attempt to understand the purpose of insulting someone, we give it this guise of free will and agency which I think ultimately makes it more mean than it would otherwise be. It robs it of its whimsy.
We view insults as some sort of like, vehicle for tough love, vehicle for change, perhaps, or we view it as maybe righteous, because you're insulting someone on something they can change and by implication I think, should change. I think we have to be honest, though. Insults are not for the people who are being insulted. They are for the people saying them, they have always been. If that's the case, it doesn't even need to be really related to the person you're insulting at all, or even necessarily directed at them. It doesn't need to be such a mean thing, if it's just for you. And if it is just for you, then I think it's more valuable to do that assessment and figure out why you're actually doing it, instead of just like, giving into mindless frustration and calling someone a mean name, like a child.
This is the argument I see to defend use of the word and I've never understood it. Where I am (west coast-ish of the US), the word is used very specifically to mean autistic. If you ask someone not to say retard, they say autistic instead. If you ask them not to say autistic, they say special education. If not that, slow. If not that, someone who takes the short bus. Unambiguously the people here use the r slur as a slur against autistic people. They use it as an insult towards allistic people to degrade them as lesser. Same as calling a straight person the f slur. Maybe it's different in other parts of the country, but the r slur is absolutely used as a slur against autistic people where I am.
the constant reality is that hateful losers just want to be verbally disdainful and othering to the disabled, and they will do whatever they can to keep doing it even if it means changing their language
the model of the “euphemism treadmill,” while accurate, is just another tool spiteful people use to justify saying spiteful derogatives
Without a doubt, there are hateful, spiteful losers who not only use but take pleasure in using language with the specific intent of causing maximum harm.
In spite of this fact, there I think it’s worthwhile to call out exceptions exist - since a plan of attack has the best chance of success when the full context, the entire enemy, is known. The last person I heard use the word IRL is:
kind and generous
thoughtful, otherwise respectful, well mannered
(a leftist pacifist vegan)
friends with a wide, diverse cross section of humanity
But I know they grew up around the word and haven’t seen someone it’s hurt, so they used it like they’d use any other word - without intent to harm, just ignorantly.
I’d take tips on how best to counsel them if it comes up again. I think exploring their potential blindspot (no/few disabled friends?) would be part of my strategy. Thankfully they are not just some hateful piece of shit because it wouldn’t be worth my time talking at a wall if they were. They will at least be open to entertaining an argument about the potential impact of their words even in able-bodied/minded company. Thankful that’s the kind of person they are! And when we accurately assess people it gives us our best shot at righting our collective vocabulary.
yea the hateful and spiteful are the ones that push the bill on things.
for your friend, i have had this exact experience. i just went “hey friend, that word has some history that makes it hurtful to some people, just a heads up since the way you used it sounded like you maybe weren’t aware”
That reminds me I think it was a slip, cuz I mentioned it years ago and didn’t hear it for over a year - I’m fine to remind again if I need to! Thanks :)
I'm sorry this happens where you live, that's super messed up. Autism is particularly frustrating to see denigrated because it all too often comes down to social ineptitude (so far as the people who ostracize others go). Everyone's brains work differently - this idea that anyone who breaks the mold should be cut down is incredibly frustrating and sad.
South Park did a whole episode about this with "fag" nobody is using the word to insult actual homosexuals (except hateful bigots I suppose) just like nobody us using the word "retard" to slur the disabled. (again apart from the bigoted assholes) if I say something that offends someone, then they can tell me and I'll apologize. But I don't need someone policing my language just in case someone might be upset by a word.
So I think we can be preemptively told not to say the word on social media. (RE: “if I…offend someone…I'll apologize”) When you’re talking to your best friend in your car though it’s probably hard to demand you police yourself (in the example you never use the word in public, and neither you nor your friend ever will no matter how much you say it privately). So it shouldn’t be a thought crime kinda but probably appropriate to avoid it in public or unfamiliar company.
Curious what you think of that take spujb - “tree falls in the forest …”
when an entire disabled community gets together and tells abled people that the word carries hurt, that should be more than enough evidence. if that’s not enough for a person, my only suggestion is to look inward and ask why they are so quick to doubt the personal statements of lived experiences of thousands of disabled folks.
regarding the “tree falls in the forest” thing—i literally don’t care. arguing it just gives bad vibes; some arguments you lose the moment you try to debate bro them. like i remember this one streamer who was like “but what if i said the n word in the vaccum of space where no light or sound could escape” and it’s just like bro the fact that you touch so little grass to the point you are arguing about this tells us all we need to know about you.
i guess you just have to ask yourself if you are cool with aligning your language with that of bigoted assholes - and risk hurting and/or being judged for it. i will judge you and probably assume you are on the side of the bigoted assholes simply because on a game of odds it’s more likely.
it takes very little effort to be kind and when minorities tell you a very minute step you can take to be kind i generally don’t want to try to fight back as though i’m the one being insulted.
Not only is the word fag used by a lot of people, because there are a lot of hateful bigots out there, but even when you don't mean the nasty implications, it still reminds gay people around you how much the world hates them and leads hateful bigots who overhear you to believe that their views are more widely held and acceptable to share in public. Shocking though it may seem, South Park is not a moral authority on these matters.
Aside from that, if you know a word is commonly used a slur against a disprivileged group, someone advises you to stop using it, and your response is that you'd rather say it, hurt someone and apologise if they complain about it than just stop using that word, what does that say about your priorities?
It was offensive even way before that. I remember us not serving a customer at the fast food place where I worked because he used it around my co-worker whose brother had Downs Syndrome.
I've never really associated with people who use that word.
Lemmy seems to be pretty good about not using it, though. Reddit, on the other hand...
Edit: After reading this thread, I take it back. There are some straight up disgusting people in this community who really, really want to use the r-slur.
it absolutely was offensive way before that. from my understanding 2009 was the year there was a unified push to change things across the language though :)
also wow reddit was worse? i won’t lie i never saw it there in the past decade but perhaps i was browsing more wholesome subs than some
but yeah on lemmy it’s not an exaggeration to say i come across it (used as a slur, not in an aviation sense, children 🙄) almost hourly. in another thread i am getting dogpiled with downvotes for asking politely not to use it in a derogatory way.
Every time I've reported it on lemmy, I've seen it removed by mods, but I guess there are a lot of communities here I just don't visit.
Reddit had a very popular sub with the r-slur in its name, and I saw it a lot on CTH (don't ask me why I ever visited that sub -- I ask myself, and I have no answer lol).
And yeah, Rosa's Law was 2010, but even dating back to the 70s people were abandoning its use. I recall my brother having to write an essay about people with disabilities when he used it in school in the 90s (not that I approve of using writing as a punishment).
it does get left up by certain mods here 😭 part of the reason for posting this
in my individual non authoritative opinion OKBR gets grandfathered the pass but only because it’s used in a purely non offensive context nope it’s offensive, you are right. i think it gets grandfathered in because it has important memetic/cultural meaning. but it’s still obviously highly offensive and so should be treated with delicacy and respect.
hereabouts though i’ll see like, a thread argument about cross stitching and boom, r-slur used as a derogatory. like come on kids this isn’t kindergarten lmao.
And NAACP is still around, even with a name that was offensive 40 years ago, because a) it’s clearly not intended to offend; and b) the name recognition is incredibly helpful: I hear NAACP, I think W.E.B. DuBois and Thurgood Marshall.
Try telling that to a text filter or a moderator on a power trip. They won't give a rat's ass about "to retard" meaning "to reduce or hold back." Even the linked article fails to make the semantic distinction when it calls for the elimination of the word.
If this comment disappears, it will have proven my point.
And a bitch is a female dog, I know. There's a factor of intention, a.k.a mens rea, a.k.a guilty mind that separates right from wrong based on why a person does something. It's this sort of inconvenient nuance that dealing with absolutes doesn't allow.
and there’s a matter of intention to me blocking you, too. literally no one disagrees with you, not even me. i am not calling for an “absolute” anything
your sophomorisms are literally just being posted to give you an excuse to type le edgy words. and worst crime of all you’re not doing it even in a funny or thoughtful way, you are just being mean about it. take care and i hope to me is the most unkind you will be to anyone all day.
Would you use the term “bitch” when talking about dogs? Or just say female dog to avoid being misunderstood? It used to be used that way, but now you’re going to sound like an asshole if you use it.
Once people start using a technical term as a slur, it gets tainted by that additional meaning. You can’t forcefully separate the technical term from the slur. If you don’t want people to think you’re throwing around slurs, you need to find a new word to use.
Don't blame the people hurt by the slurs, blame the assholes who misused the word so often that they fucked up its meaning.
Yup. I was perma banned from /r/politics over on Reddit years ago for using this word in a way that had nothing to do with people.
It was used in a literal manner, with the definition of how I used it meaning "to delay or hold back in terms of progress, development, or accomplishment."
I tried to appeal, and I was labeled "ableist". It was the dumbest shit I've ever experienced on Reddit prior to the piggy ruining the platform.
But yet, people bitch about it even when you're not calling someone retarded. It's almost as if they are too intellectually disabled to understand the difference.
