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KillingTimeItself ,

you also have unlimited data, unless you hit a data cap, and then you hit a data rate limit, so technically your data is actually limited.

Can we legislate these fucks to just actual provide the bandwidth they claim to? I.E. a max cap of the max bandwidth * the max amount of time it can be available for in a billing period. Anything else is fraud IMO.

Dettweiler42 ,

We had legislation for this stuff. Then Trump put Shit Pai in the FCC chairman spot and proceeded to gut all of the net neutrality and consumer protection regulations.

KillingTimeItself ,

ajit pai* or however the fuck you spell it, idk im american, i have no culture.

Veraxus ,

Data is data in the same way water is water and electricity is electricity; nobody should have the power to dictate how you use it. I really wish we’d enshrine genuine net neutrality and shut this kind of nonsense down.

Crozekiel ,

Except there is not a physical commodity or production at the other end of which they are supplying me a portion of a finite amount. If they "pipe" is big enough to supply what is promised to every end user it is supplied to, the water company or power company can still run out of water or power if one person uses a ridiculous amount. The ISP can't run out of "data", they aren't even supplying it - it comes from a host. The ISP is just responsible for running the cables, or "connecting the pipes".

The ISPs loves using the comparison to water or power, because you get charged more for using more of either and that is how they have convinced lawmakers (who are so old and out of touch they have no idea how the internet works) that using more data should cost more. They've convinced our lawmakers basically that they have a big "tank full of data" and if I use too much, there wont' be any for my neighbors.

The truth is they are selling me something they can't provide - a 250Gbps "pipe" that can't actually supply 250Gbps if everyone they sold it to wants to use it at the same time. They sell the same pipe to the whole neighborhood and blame the neighborhood when they try to use what they were told they bought.

rainynight65 ,

Except there is no 'unlimited' for water or electricity.

Blackrook7 ,

There used to be

Emerald ,

128kbps is only mildly better then dial up lmao

FlyingSquid OP ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

And it's 60mbps right now. Not amazing, but also manageable. They could cut it down to 10 or something, which would still make downloading huge files or whatever a pain in the ass, but would also still allow you to do basic things like watch Netflix.

Kcg ,

Start saving webpages for offline use like the good old days!

KillingTimeItself ,

the funniest thing to me, is that realistically, the most useful thing you can do with 128k is torrent.

ISP's literally incentivize you to torrent lmao.

uis ,
@uis@lemm.ee avatar

Yarr!

ChaoticNeutralCzech ,

Some or all major mobile providers outright BAN hotspots in their ToS. However, they don't enforce the rule as it would be very unpopular.

And we still have pretty much the most expensive cellular data in the EU. The triopoly sucks.

ThrowawayPermanente ,

TTLMaster was what I used to fix this a few years ago

MonkderZweite ,

They can detect you using your phone as hotspot? Creepy.

jkrtn ,

The phone reports it, yeah, it is creepy. Should be illegal to even have the knowledge to differentiate.

michael_palmer ,

TTL is a part of TCP/IP.

kent_eh ,

It's not hard to detect when the standard includes the phone indicating what it's doing to the carrier.

FlyingSquid OP ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Very creepy.

dan ,
@dan@upvote.au avatar

Sometimes it's based on the TTL of packets. TTL for hotspot clients will be one less than TTL for directly using data on the phone, since the phone is acting as a router, which adds an extra hop.

I think running a HTTP proxy or VPN server on the phone would mask it (since the connections would then be made by the phone directly), but I've never tried.

michael_palmer ,

Android phones don't share VPN connections through the hotspot

dan ,
@dan@upvote.au avatar

Ahh - that's unfortunate. A HTTP proxy should work though.

humbletightband ,

My provider used MTU as a reference. I simply changed it in hotspot settings and was happy about that

VeganCheesecake ,
@VeganCheesecake@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

My ISP's a dick, but to my knowledge, unlimited has to mean unlimited around here. There where months where we had Problems with our fibre, so I did everything over a hotspot from my phone. Used 100's of GB's no one ever complained.

Get proper consumer protection laws, people.

FlyingSquid OP ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

*Cries in American.*

intensely_human ,

Where are you?

YeetPics ,
@YeetPics@mander.xyz avatar

Get proper consumer protection laws, people.

And if you're homeless, just buy a house 🫶

Rodeo ,

It really is the same energy

VeganCheesecake ,
@VeganCheesecake@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

It wasn't supposed to be quite serious, but yeah, depending on where you live it's pretty much a lost cause, at least in the short-, or even mid-term.

perdvert ,

Bad comparison.

dan ,
@dan@upvote.au avatar

Get proper consumer protection laws, people.

California is trying its best, but I'm not sure the other US states will get onboard (except New York, and maybe Oregon and Washington state).

VeganCheesecake ,
@VeganCheesecake@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Yeah. I mean, the state I live in right now just passed a bill to forbid officers of the state from using gender neutral, but technically grammatically incorrect language, while the ruling party is campaigning on not being a party of bans, while claiming their rivals are, so things aren't all that green here either.

I say take the wins you can get.

dan ,
@dan@upvote.au avatar

unlimited has to mean unlimited around here.

This is the case in a lot of countries. In Australia, some ISPs got fined a lot of money (something like $300,000 I think?) because they advertised mobile phone plans as "unlimited" when in reality they slowed down the speed once you hit a limit.

VeganCheesecake ,
@VeganCheesecake@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Dunno if 300k is necessarily a lot for an ISP, but having rules and fining firms for non-compliance is pretty nice.

KillingTimeItself ,

it's not especially in the US, i've seen ISPs essentially break kneecaps forcing the consume to pay for the initial hook up, and then immediately rolling it out to every available house in the subdivision or neighborhood.

That shit should be illegal. If you do the math on how long it would take to profit from running it yourself it's only a few years given an ENTIRE neighborhood.

dan ,
@dan@upvote.au avatar

The maximum ISPs could be fined for misleading/deceptive conduct (including things like this) was $1.1 million at the time, and I don't think they considered this bad enough to hand out the maximum fine. They bumped the maximum to $10 million at some point afterwards though.

Shimitar ,
@Shimitar@feddit.it avatar

At home i have a FWA over 5G (mobile) with 1Tb/month of traffic cap. That can be raised by 200Gb if needed. Cost 24€/month.

On mobile I have 150Gb capped 3G/4G/5G (whatever works) for 7.99€/month.

Not bad deals in comparison with what I read here.

solrize ,

If it's an android phone, enable dev mode, install adb on your laptop, run an sshd under termux on the phone, and you should be able to set up iptables to forward packets from the laptop through the phone. The phone won't know that it's being used for tethering. Although I hadn't seen the stuff about packet TTL before. Maybe it's as simple as just adjusting that.

fne8w2ah ,

Back in the day PDANet was the app to go to enable unlimited tethering.

Zikeji ,
@Zikeji@programming.dev avatar

Still works for me as of last year. Now I use rooted android with ttlfix.

Armageddon ,

This is what I've been using and it works for the most part other than the connection just dropping with too much use, only other thing I've used is PairVPN which had the same problem but was 100x worse. Is there something better around nowadays? I have a carrier locked phone and can't ROM or root

owenfromcanada ,
@owenfromcanada@lemmy.world avatar

A less complicated method that I used for years:

  • Install SimpleSSHD on your phone
  • If you're running Windows, install PuTTY on your PC
  • Connect to SimpleSSHD through PuTTY/ssh and set a parameter for dynamic forwarding (CLI option is -D 8888)
  • Set your web browser or application to use SOCKS5 proxy at localhost port 8888

It doesn't redirect all traffic (you'd want to avoid system updates, for example) but might be easier than messing with iptables.

dan ,
@dan@upvote.au avatar

It may be easier to just run a VPN on the phone and route the traffic through it? WireGuard runs on Android. I've never tried configuring it to forward data through it though, but it should work.

owenfromcanada ,
@owenfromcanada@lemmy.world avatar

I tried that, the carrier could still differentiate it from local traffic (or at least my speed test results were vastly different).

dan ,
@dan@upvote.au avatar

It's possible they've gotten smarter these days.

I don't know how ISPs are allowed to do this when it's a very obvious violation of net neutrality.

owenfromcanada ,
@owenfromcanada@lemmy.world avatar

If I recall correctly, they justify it by claiming they need to do deep packet inspection to balance traffic. There's a fuzzy line between them needing to optimize their network equipment and respecting privacy, and the rulings seem to favor the former.

michael_palmer ,

There is an app that can change TTL value through iptables. It requires root.

shani66 ,

This is one of those 'innovations' people mean when they say capitalism drives innovation. Not the hotspot, the pointless extra charge for something your phone can just do on its own.

BilboBargains ,

Use a VPN. ISP are being disingenuous when they claim a data connection is unlimited at the point of purchase and then slug us with restrictions when we try and use it. If they can detect a tether, the VPN should obscure it.

the_third ,

Start the VPN from the phone though, otherwise the TTL-trick will still work for them.

istanbullu ,

How can they tell if you are tethering?

Michal ,

They must be sniffing traffic

orangeboats , (edited )

Not sure if it's still the case today, but back then cellular ISPs could tell you are tethering by looking at the TTL (time to live) value of your packets.

Basically, a packet starts with a TTL of 64 usually. After each hop (e.g. from your phone to the ISP's devices) the TTL is decremented, becoming 63, then 62, and so on. The main purpose of TTL is to prevent packets from lingering in the network forever, by dropping the packet if its TTL reaches zero. Most packets reach their destinations within 20 hops anyway, so a TTL of 64 is plenty enough.

Back to the topic. What happens when the ISP receives a packet with a TTL value less than expected, like 61 instead of 62? It realizes that your packet must have gone through an additional hop, for example when it hopped from your laptop onto your phone, hence the data must be tethered.

orangeboats ,

This also explains why VPN is a possible workaround to this issue.

Your VPN will encapsulate any packets that your phone will send out inside a new packet (its contents encrypted), and this new packet is the one actually being sent out to the internet. What TTL does this new packet have? You guessed it, 64. From the ISP's perspective, this packet is no different than any other packets sent directly from your phone.

BUT, not all phones will pass tethered packets to the VPN client -- they directly send those out to the internet. Mine does this! In this case, TTL-based tracking will still work. And some phones seem to have other methods to inform the ISP that the data is tethered, in which case the VPN workaround may possibly fail.

mhz ,
@mhz@lemm.ee avatar

That was a good read, thank you

southernbrewer ,

You can also just increase your laptop's initial TTL by one and then they can't tell.

Couldbealeotard ,
@Couldbealeotard@lemmy.world avatar

How do you do this?

southernbrewer , (edited )

On MacOS this will do it:

printf 'net.inet.ip.ttl=65\nnet.inet6.ip6.hlim=65\n' | sudo tee /etc/sysctl.conf

Can't personally speak for other OSes at present. Here's a SO post about Ubuntu: https://askubuntu.com/a/670276

mhz ,
@mhz@lemm.ee avatar

That was a good read, thanks

bhamlin ,

If you're using the built-in unmodified hotspot on pretty much all phones these days, mobile data for the hotspot goes through a different apn. Your phone requests data on one channel, while hotspot data goes through another.

CrayonRosary ,

Get EasyTether for your phone ($10) and you can USB tether to any PC that has the companion app installed (free).

Even a Raspberry Pi works. I have a Pi configured to broadcast as a WiFi AP, so I just plug in my phone via USB and I have instant WiFi for all of my devices. Takes a fair amount of configuration to do that, but there are tutorials online. Much easier just plugging your phone into a laptop for internet on just that laptop.

Or maybe a laptop can act as a WiFi AP, too. I do know Windows can share internet out a free Ethernet port very easily.

I use a VPN so my wireless provider doesn't see Windows update or Stream downloads, etc.

Jimmycrackcrack , (edited )

Around about 2009 or so I had a mobile plan with Virgin that did that same trick (I think this was plugging your phone in to a computer as a modem as opposed to wireless hotspot but same thing anyway) and it was limited to 5 MEGABYTES after which they wanted 15pence per KILOBYTE I couldn't believe what I was reading. I never ran afoul of it because I checked this out first when buying the plan and made sure never to use that function but it just seemed literally unreal. I've been shocked at how much things cost before but that seemed more like a mistake or something, I just can't imagine they ever actually made anyone pay for that, the negative press would be too bad. It was not unheard of at the time for people to have excess charges on limited plans waived because it was a shock and they were unaware or unprepared for those charges accruing so the idea that someone might have checked emails, read a news article, checked Facebook and possibly a web video having not read the fine print and ended up with tens if not over a hundred GBP of charges just doesn't seem feasible. Really fucking crazy.

HauntedCupcake ,

So that works out to £150 per Megabyte?! Holy fuck that's a scam. With average webpage size being ~2MB that's £300 a page

phoneymouse ,

Visible has an unlimited hotspot

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