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sagrotan ,
@sagrotan@lemmy.world avatar

Whoever buys apple shit will learn eventually. Or just go extinct.

nyakojiru ,
@nyakojiru@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Holy shit if this is true it will be a game changer for me . Will be start looking android devices. Such a retrograde movement!

rikudou OP ,

Well, definitely sounds like something they'd do. EU might force them not to, though. Only time will tell how it turns out. But definitely recommend the move to Android!

jose1324 ,

It is true

ahnesampo ,

Third party browser & JavaScript engine + ability to install web apps on the Home screen = third party app store that doesn’t have to pay Apple’s fees.

When Apple could force everyone to use Apple’s WebKit, web apps didn’t matter as much as Apple could limit WebKit features to push people to the App Store. E.g. it took ages to get push notifications on WebKit. If Google and Mozilla are free to make whatever improvements to their browser engines, the need to have native apps on the phone decreases considerably.

bitwolf ,

That's what I really want personally, the mobile web Steve Jobs envisioned. Glorious web apps without flash.

RagingRobot ,

He pushed everything into apps though. Getting rid of flash was a big part of that because JavaScript wasn't capable of all of the same things at that time. The canvas wasn't fully supported yet. That meant games and anything with crazy animations needed to be an app.

Killing flash was one of the first steps to where we are now. It may not have been perfect but it did a lot for its time.

Fuzzypyro ,

As a sysadmin and self-hoster this decision will absolutely make me drop Apple 150%. A clean and well implemented pwa was a big reason I have stuck with my iPhone 12 despite buying a pixel 7. I know there are options on Android but they all have issues either in ux or in ui that makes it very obvious I’m using a pwa.

realitista , (edited )

How will this affect the Lemmy client Voyager? Is it considered a web app? My understanding was that it was.

rikudou OP ,

As far as I know, it is a web app, meaning it could no longer be installed and will only work as a bookmark that opens your default browser.

Silic0n_Alph4 ,

No? It’s in the App Store! https://apps.apple.com/gb/app/voyager-for-lemmy/id6451429762 This PWA charge will only affect websites that you pin to your Home Screen.

realitista ,

Ah didn't know it was in the App Store now. Good. Thanks.

paschko_mato , (edited )

been there since the Reddit Exodus or shortly after

Edit: ok I looked into my app history, installed Mlem on 22.07.23 and Voyager on 17.09.23, felt like a week in my memory.. But Voyager is not new in the iOS Appstore and IMHO was one of the best Lemmy Apps for iOS since launch.

PM_Your_Nudes_Please ,

It definitely wasn’t there during the exodus. IIRC, there were also some features missing from it when it hit the App Store too, so the web app was still the better choice.

cloudless ,
@cloudless@feddit.uk avatar

Official announcement from Voyager:

Using an iPhone in the EU? Please install the Voyager native app. Apple is killing support for PWAs

MrSpArkle ,

It is, they have an official app store app as well though. However I find mlem to be a smoother experience, particularly scrolling, and it tends to keep its position when being backgrounded better than memmy and voyager.

themurphy ,

The probably couldn't afford the development /s

But on the positive side, Apple is now forced to allow other app stores on all phones in the EU.

So that's probably a bigger win than this is a loss.

rikudou OP ,

Depends on whether your app is distributed as a PWA or not. Mine is, so it kinda touches me personally.

quackers ,

I dont know much about mobile but cant you stick your pwa in some electron-like thing and distribute it as an app? i mean its still a pain of course

rikudou OP ,

You can, but then I'd have to pay $99 per year to Apple to have it on the App Store. 3rd party app stores are gonna be a wild west for a while, so not sure it's viable as an option.

quackers ,

Ah. Yikes.

debeluhar ,

I just made my app as a PWA, just few months ago, just to support iOS. F**k them. I'm not making any effort for iOS apps anymore.

rikudou OP ,

Yep, fuck them. For me it was not the deciding factor in making my app a PWA, but it definitely was one of the reasons I went for it.

debeluhar ,

I already had android app written in kotlin, so I didn't need PWA. I guess it's cool that I can use this PWA on computer, even if nobody would use my app on computer. When somebody asks me, why my app is not on App Store, I just ask them, would they pay 99$ per year for an app, and they say never. Well, there is your answer.

debeluhar ,

@rikudou Just an update for you. I just tried my PWA app on last stable version of iOS 17.4 and it works again. I made a quick google search if it's just me, or Apple actually reversed they decision and I found this (from https://developer.apple.com/support/dma-and-apps-in-the-eu/#dev-qa ):

Why don’t users in the EU have access to Home Screen web apps?

UPDATE: Previously, Apple announced plans to remove the Home Screen web apps capability in the EU as part of our efforts to comply with the DMA. The need to remove the capability was informed by the complex security and privacy concerns associated with web apps to support alternative browser engines that would require building a new integration architecture that does not currently exist in iOS.

We have received requests to continue to offer support for Home Screen web apps in iOS, therefore we will continue to offer the existing Home Screen web apps capability in the EU. This support means Home Screen web apps continue to be built directly on WebKit and its security architecture, and align with the security and privacy model for native apps on iOS.

Developers and users who may have been impacted by the removal of Home Screen web apps in the beta release of iOS in the EU can expect the return of the existing functionality for Home Screen web apps with the availability of iOS 17.4 in early March.

Finally, some good news.

UnfairUtan ,

I was starting to love pwa... But this is going to kill the momentum it was starting to have 😢

rikudou OP ,

Well, let's hope EU fines them all the way to bankruptcy (I know that's not gonna happen, but one can dream).

abhibeckert ,

The EU could force Apple to sell their iPhone business. That's listed as the maximum penalty for a DMA violation for companies that "systematically" fail to open up their platform.

cole ,
@cole@lemdro.id avatar

apple wouldn't do that, they'd withdraw from the EU first

nyakojiru ,
@nyakojiru@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

I wish this. Like Microsoft and google constantly making dependent users mad shitting on them

smileyhead ,

Maybe there will be some positives at the end of the day? PWAs were mostly used to distribute proprietary obfuscated webapps and bloating up the web standards and browsers.
Or maybe I just miss the days of web being a framework to publish interactive documents and not a base on which WebKit and Chromium try to achieve feature parity with Android.

danielfgom ,
@danielfgom@lemmy.world avatar

Apple really sucks hard! What a terrible company! 🤮🤮

nyakojiru ,
@nyakojiru@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Tell me a corporation that doesn't suck.

madcaesar ,

My only example ever is pretty much Costco. But I can't think of a single tech company that isn't a massive asshole. There must be some tho, right?

Link ,

Valve? I think they are pretty good and pro consumer.

PilferJynx ,

For now.. Things can always change and it's usually for the worst.

A_Random_Idiot ,
@A_Random_Idiot@lemmy.world avatar

how quickly people forget valves pro-consumer shit was forced by regulations and countries suing them into compliance.

Link ,

Such as?

A_Random_Idiot ,
@A_Random_Idiot@lemmy.world avatar

https://www.cnet.com/culture/entertainment/valve-to-pay-3-million-fine-for-misleading-australian-gamers/

Losing that fight is the big reason why valve made all the changes its did to be better for consumers.. and I wager they did it cause they saw where the dominos would fall if more countries went after them, So they did it themselves to paint it like a big pro-consumer thing instead of a preventing-further-legal-costs thing.

mightyfoolish ,

Personally, I am okay with Valve not always being the company they are now. A government did its job and the company it affected became consumer friendly [and still dominated the market by believing in a market no other major publisher wanted to touch at the time]. This is what governments are created for: helping the citizens while letting these companies innovate.

TORFdot0 ,

You didn’t used to be able to refund your stream purchases if you downloaded or installed them at all. The fact that they forced intrusive DRM with a single player game in HL2.

Valve was seen as a very unfriendly company until about 2010

ChonkaLoo ,
@ChonkaLoo@lemmy.world avatar

Valve basically killed the second hand market of PC Games with their Steam keys tied forever to one account. CD Keys was a thing before Steam but only for online games and if you sold the game or lended it out to a buddy the next person could play with same key. Nope too pro consumer thought Valve, made it mandatory for singleplayer games like Half-Life 2. They forced people buying Half-Life 2 to install Steam & create Steam account which at the time was not ready and basically just an early DRM to tie license forever to one account.

Many people could not even play at release, they could not prove they owned what they had bought, cause servers were overloaded so they were locked out of playing an offline singleplayer game on their own computer. Unfortunately that is custom nowadays when big games launch with contrived shitty online service crap forced down gamers throats. Valve basically pioneered that shit among many other douchey moves. They are better than scum like EA & Ubisoft especially these days but far from perfect. So no they all suck to some degree.

scottywh ,

I personally believe Costco does suck but somehow a large number of people are blind to it.

TimeSquirrel ,
@TimeSquirrel@kbin.social avatar

When you realize corporations exist for the benefit of shareholders and not the customers it serves, it makes a lot more sense why they act the way they do.

That's why things like credit unions usually don't suck as hard.

Harbinger01173430 ,

Canonical 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿

bitwolf ,

No, they suck too.

Doing a very similar tactic to Apple with their snaps.

smileyhead ,

Some suck just more.

nyakojiru ,
@nyakojiru@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Lol

Pantherina ,

Aah, the security again...

Fuck this company

tonytins ,
@tonytins@pawb.social avatar

Just why does anyone actually like that company?

I mean, if Google weren't shit, I'm sure Android would be more viable. They've can't even keep a consistent brand! They've gone from Google Play this and that, to migrating everything - including podcasts - to YouTube.

Zak ,
@Zak@lemmy.world avatar

migrating everything - including podcasts - to YouTube

If only there were other apps for podcasts on Android, it would be a viable operating system.

Google is kind of crap, but Android has a lot more built-in escape hatches than iOS does. People don't seem to use them as much as I'd hoped, but they're available.

PhreakyByNature ,

I've been using Podcast Addict for years now. Dunno why people think they are bound to one thing when Android offers so many choices.

Prandom_returns ,

I think they're just have choice paralysis. There's too much stuff on Android, and picking something is really rather anoying.

Something like a Gallery. There's probably a 1000 galleries on Play Store, 50% of them are "my first app", that display a fullscreen ad every other photo.

You have to know what you want, research it, then get it. Non-nerds don't really care about that.

My guess. I'm a nerd who does care about all that.

gunpachi ,

You do have a point, but each App's play store page itself shows whether it has ads or in-app purchases. One can use that as an indicator for selecting an app. So people just need to pay attention to the small text right below the App's title

example

Then there is always f-droid . You can find really good quality software without ads in fdroid. I rarely use the play store these days (except when I have to update whatsapp and banking apps)

Prandom_returns ,

Again, you're telling this to an android nerd. I'm aware.

I'm speaking from a perspective of an average joe, who is 100% not aware of the existance of F-droid or is convinced that it's malware.

I'm also don't expect people sift through hundreds of apps, opening each page and checking permissions/ads/reviews.

People install apps either because they've heard about it on TV/whatever, or a friend told them to install this specific app.

This is why people rely on default apps, and compare "phones" based on that.

aniki ,

I will confess I used Google podcasts for years not realizing that the FOSS alternatives were MASSIVE improvements.

RGB3x3 ,

Is there a podcast app that automatically plays the next episode of podcasts in the correct order (oldest to newest)?

I've tried a bunch of podcast apps and none of them seem to do that like Google podcasts did, unless I'm using them wrong.

zombaya01 ,

Antennapod can do that. You can define the sort order per show.

webhead ,
@webhead@lemmy.world avatar

Pocketcasts fixed that a while ago. You can set the sorting of episodes for each podcast and then it plays in that order.

tonytins ,
@tonytins@pawb.social avatar

While I totally agree, the average Joe is just going to gravitate to whomever controls the ecosystem. Kinda hard to trust a higher authority when they can't even get their in-house shit together.

SkippingRelax ,

Are you implying that the average user doesn't know how to install an app? My 80 yo parents do that on their samsung tablet.

No need to trust any higher authorities, whatever that means

BReel ,

I think they mean the average person isn’t going to take the time to check 20 different contacts apps in the store to find the perfect one, then do it again with every other basic app on their phone.

They’re just gonna use the default app 99%

tonytins ,
@tonytins@pawb.social avatar

I'm implying that people choose the path of least resistance.

SkippingRelax ,

Gotcha, sorry misunderstood

Grandwolf319 ,

That’s google’s strategy though.

Although they let you have full control and don’t force you to use their apps, it’s setup so the majority just use the defaults and are discouraged to sway away from google’s ways.

Its fully intentional.

muntedcrocodile ,
@muntedcrocodile@lemmy.world avatar

Fuck google buy a google pixel then put grapheneos on it

RGB3x3 ,

Fuck Google

Give them money

Is there another option?

SuperSaiyanSwag ,

They would make a lot more money on that purchase if it’s vanilla android though. Yes, you’re spending money on the hardware, but is Google really known for making bank on just hardware sales?

SkaveRat ,

buy a used phone

muntedcrocodile ,
@muntedcrocodile@lemmy.world avatar

Its kinda ironic that google pixel is the only phone with decent secirity hardware and an unlockablw bootloader.

TotalSonic ,
@TotalSonic@lemmy.world avatar

Other options are Fairphone, Volla, Murena - or flashing "vanilla" custom ROM's on phones other than Pixels - or using Ubuntu Touch, Plasma Mobile, Mobian, Droidian or Sailfish OS.

kilgore_trout ,
@kilgore_trout@feddit.it avatar

Buy a second-hand Google Pixel.

rikudou OP ,
  1. Buy an old Xperia 10 III.
  2. Flash SailfishOS there
  3. ???
  4. Profit
rikudou OP ,

Android is more popular globally, the only place where it isn't true (AFAIK) is USA where the colour of the text bubble is important for reasons that defy logic.

tonytins ,
@tonytins@pawb.social avatar

Google's marketing department defies logic every day.

SkippingRelax ,

Is that your biggest concern about a tech company? Id be happy for marketing departments to he shut down and the money redirected to make better/cheaper products.

While Google sucks now and has for a while, in their early days they have demonstrated that marketing is not all it takes to make innovative, successful products.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, Apple obsession with marketing has created fanboys that spend the night queuing up to be the first to get the latest iPhone, and that don't question the technology or ethics (or anything) behind the flashing toy that they crave. Good for the executives and the shareholder but as a customer?

TimeSquirrel ,
@TimeSquirrel@kbin.social avatar

where the colour of the text bubble is important for reasons that defy logic.

That's just a thing tweens and teens do, it's just like when kids were obsessed with expensive shoes when I was a kid and would ostracize the kids who couldn't afford them. No sane adult I have ever met gave a shit about my text bubbles.

Zak ,
@Zak@lemmy.world avatar

That's half-true. No adults I voluntarily associate with care what brand of phone anybody else has in theory, but a lot of the iPhone owners are vehemently unwilling to install any third-party messaging apps. That means:

  • Messaging about anything where security is important is a problem. Most people don't have big secrets, but sending things that could be used for identity theft isn't terribly rare.
  • Exchanging high-quality media is impossible.
  • People will exclude non-iPhone users from group chats because falling back to MMS is a bad experience for everyone.
Xatolos ,
@Xatolos@reddthat.com avatar

[Thread, post or comment was deleted by the author]

    •
    TimeSquirrel ,
    @TimeSquirrel@kbin.social avatar

    If that company is serious about conducting professional business for any length of time, they'll learn better soon enough. In my industry, we still use dialup modems to remotely manage some equipment. You'd be fired for telling a customer to fuck off for not having a specific phone.

    Harbinger01173430 ,

    Yeah. We usually mock apple users in my country xd they go in high debt to get one of those candy bricks and can't even afford a cellular plan afterwards. Lmao

    Kribensis ,

    This is a Reddit-style circle jerk. A LOT of people like Apple, because even though they’re almost as remorseless as Amazon or Microsoft or Google when it comes to maximizing profits, they build good products, create new product categories, and they’ve been doing both of those things for 40 years.

    Is this a sleazy thing to do? Yup. Is it as sleazy as Meta intentionally allowing its algorithm to push softcore kiddie porn to teen Instagram users? Nope. Not even in the same ballpark.

    heavy ,

    Ah, sounds like what-about-ism. Metas behavior doesn't exempt Apple from criticism. That logic tends to drive all of our standards and expectations down.

    Theres room to criticize and expect more from all of these companies who are more than capable of doing better.

    Kribensis ,

    That’s fair. It is whataboutism (is that one word or 7?) And, I’m pissed off not only that Apple is messing with basic DMA compliance, but that they literally forked all their software rather than do this in the US.

    At the same time, I hate Apple the least of big tech, since they actually do give a crap about building good products and have done quite a bit of that. One can make the argument that zero other big tech companies do.

    Should we expect more of all of them? I’m not gonna die on that hill! It is way, way too late to stop this corporatocracy, but one can hope.

    vividspecter ,

    At the same time, I hate Apple the least of big tech, since they actually do give a crap about building good products and have done quite a bit of that.

    That's an incredibly low bar. There are exceptions of course but I'd argue there really is no need to use "big tech" software much of the time. Smartphones are probably the most challenging, but desktops and laptops? Easy to avoid.

    whostosay ,

    Apple builds marketing, not good products. There was a time they were innovative, and it is not now. Their price/performance ratio is laughable.

    Jrockwar ,

    I have to disagree when it comes to laptops: the gap has closed a bit now, but there's still no intel- or amd-based alternative that comes close to the MacBook air in terms of performance/battery life at the £1000-£1200 price point. When the M1s first came out, the fanless MacBook air shattered the intel i9 MBP in any conceivable metric other than pure GPU power (which the MacBook Pro could use for about a minute before overheating).

    Even if expensive, the current MacBook lineup is really compelling. If you're prepared to spend £3000 on a laptop, you just can't get anything similar in terms of performance, battery life, and noise. You might get a workstation like an HP ZBook with similar oomph but then you're looking at a beast that weighs 50% more than a comparable MBP, has the fans buzzing all the time at full blast, and lasts a couple hours on a battery charge. I've used my work MacBook Pro (M1 Max) for a full Atlantic flight of ≈9 hours and it still had juice to go.

    TheGrandNagus , (edited )

    They start at £1,150

    MacBooks in that price range fall apart frequently due to only having 8GB of RAM. They're e-waste.

    You've got to spend ~£500 more to get one with alright specs. And even for that £1,650 price point you only get 512GB storage (are you fucking serious, Apple? A £500 Acer has that amount!)

    And please don't regurgitate Apple's "our RAM is magic RAM so you don't need much of it" nonsense.

    Jrockwar ,

    I have no idea what you're on about. MacBook airs start at £999, and I've still been able to configure one at £1199 with 16 GB of RAM.

    https://feddit.uk/pictrs/image/9d3a0f5f-45b8-48bf-9a00-c8870dd05ba1.png

    Also I haven't said anything about that magic ram nonsense, please don't try to paint me as an idiot. Even my personal laptop has 32 GB. But different needs, different price points. I still maintain that at the price points apple operates, it's hard to find something better with windows - not because I'm an apple fanboy by any means, but because of the laziness of Intel and the lack of decent ARM alternatives (and Microsoft's half assed approach to ARM).

    TheGrandNagus , (edited )

    I was talking about the current generation, not a 3 year old model. Similarly if I was talking about iPhone pricing, I'd bring up the iPhone 15, not 12.

    You need to add ram to at least 16GB, and storage to at least 512GB, otherwise not only do you have a pathetic amount of storage, but your storage speeds are crippled (which apple unfortunately tries of obfuscate).

    That takes the price up to £1,650. £500 more than the base price.

    And I didn't say you said anything about magic RAM. I said please don't regurgitate it in response. I see it a lot. 8GB of RAM is straight up e-waste.

    I can't believe Apple wasn't sued over their "our RAM is... like... magic, bruh" statements

    whostosay ,

    I really poked the bear on this one, this is more a reply to both of you:

    Even if they were on par with other manufacturers, apples staunch position on never admitting security vulnerabilities or attempting to rectify them will steer me away every single time.

    rikudou OP ,

    since they actually do give a crap about building good products and have done quite a bit of that

    That hasn't been true for quite a few years.

    abhibeckert ,

    is that one word or 7?

    It's a word, with a formal dictionary definition: "the technique or practice of responding to an accusation or difficult question by making a counter-accusation or raising a different issue".

    It has it's origins in politics.

    Nomad ,

    Whataboutism much?

    sin_free_for_00_days ,

    create new product categories

    I'm wondering what they are. The Newton was kind of cool, but before it's time. mp3 players had been out for years before Apple jumped on the bandwagon. Same with phones. I hope this doesn't come across as snarky "fuck apple", I'm genuinely curious.

    RGB3x3 ,

    They don't create new product categories. What they do is enter an existing category, do it the Apple Way, which is generally high-quality and integrated well into their ecosystem, and thus they become the default in people's minds.

    They've almost never done anything new, but they integrate existing technologies better than almost every other company.

    themurphy ,

    "Finding the application is half the innovation"

    Kribensis ,

    Oh, man! Quite a bit of traffic on my original comment. I won't spend time engaging on these since they're pile-ons, but this is objectively trivial to refute.

    "They've almost never done anything new"? Seriously? How about the user interface when everyone was using DOS? Or the Mac Plus/SE/any of half a dozen other macs in the 80s and early 90s that redefined what a computer could act like and look like? When every other PC was a beige box with identical specs?

    Maybe the iPod, which redefined that category and made every other MP3 player obsolete overnight? The iPhone, perhaps? This was the absolute gimme, like I can't imagine how you made that comment with the iPhone hanging around. What were phones before the iPhone? Blackberries and flip phones. Yeah, it couldn't copy/paste for two years, but Steve wanted it released, lol.

    The iPad would be another. There were smart watches before Apple's, sort of, but they were pretty crappy and didn't do the same stuff.

    While we're at it, find me some PC laptops that ever debuted with the stuff Apple put in theirs. High-res screens? Touch ID? Face ID? Even OSX, which is old as hell, is built on UNIX and rock-stable -- and was definitely innovative when it first came out, as were some of its predecessors. When OSX came out, your alternative was Windows 95.

    Then there are the airpods, I don't think there were any wireless bluetooth earbuds before those, although I might be wrong. And finally, despite it being way too expensive and five generations away from being useful, the ski goggles. Before you say there's other VR goggles, recall that only Apple is doing that as AR computing instead of dumb fucking avatars in virtual conference rooms that probably run telemetry on how big your living room is and sell it.

    By all means, say Apple is greedy as hell, but don't make stuff up.

    dustyData ,

    Everything, all of that existed way before Apple. Just because you are ignorant of history doesn't make your point right. Apple got all of their ideas from interacting with other companies in private, then stealing their ideas. Jobs was no longer invited to certain demos because of that kind of shenanigans. And oh god, OSX is NOT build directly from UNIX. It's BSD which they scrapped from the NeXT computer. Everything you are spouting is just wrong. Apple is just good at marketing to chumps who care more about status and looks than usability, and who just buy into the cult mentality and lap all of Apple's bullshit without rubbing two neurons together long enough to notice they are being scalped with overpriced crap.

    Kribensis ,

    Please do continue to spew ad-hominem copypasta from every Apple hate thread in the history of Reddit like you're a first-gen LLM trained on r/foss posts. "All of that existed way before Apple" ... please feel free to refute each product I listed as being innovative or new by showing where it previously existed. I'd love to understand how some form of the iPhone was around way before Apple, or the iPad -- please go for it.

    As for the statement that OSX is based on BSD, wow! Such an important distinction when BSD is a descendant of UNIX... this is a nice little straw man thing, please go look up what a straw man argument is.

    On Jobs getting banned from demos, that's actually hilarious. But please do list any products I named that Apple objectively stole. I'm sure you have all the info there.

    Just super fun times, I always hoped that Lemmy would have a higher level of discussion than Reddit. But how can it, when it's the same people and they're even more self-important? :D

    dustyData ,

    Good boy, you learned ad-hominem. Now, tell me which other big words you know?

    die444die ,

    Yeah, the circlejerking and dog piling from people who have no idea what they are talking about is actually far worse here than it was at Reddit - but just know, we aren’t all as misinformed as these people. You’re absolutely correct.

    Meowoem ,

    You're making up a lot of stuff, Xerox had a gui UI for a whole decade before apple and they certainly weren't the only ones.

    The MP3 player they made was literally just a feature limited version of already popular devices. I got my arcos a year before the first apple device was released and it had every single feature that apple would slowly add in every new expensive version over the next decade

    Apple does hype and marketing, that's their innovation - taking a feature restricted version of a technology and getting celebrities and media idiots to pretend it's the best thing in the world and actively ignore or discount the many better options.

    Kribensis ,

    Yes, Xerox PARC existed, and was totally non-commercial / didn't offer any product. Saying the iPod was the same thing as all those crappy MP3 players we all lugged around in the aughts is objectively LOL. The rest of your comment is pretty much ad-hominem and editorial -- and of course, you don't refute the rest of my points because you can't.

    Bottom line, discussions like this on Lemmy are no different than Reddit ever was. They're circlejerks. I figured I'd drop in this one time to note that, but ultimately it's pretty boring.

    Xatolos ,
    @Xatolos@reddthat.com avatar

    [Thread, post or comment was deleted by the author]

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    Kribensis ,

    Oh, man. I’m definitely not going to point by point. On a sub-argument that’s not even the topic of the thread? These are minutes in my life I don’t get back. But, seriously? My argument is invalid because I said Windows 95 instead of XP? And I must not have used any good MP3 players? By the way, they all sounded the same since they were playing 128 kbps MP3s… by the definition of how those work, they had to 😂

    And just to consider this from another angle, if apple did get the goggles from hololens, where did Microsoft get their UI from in the 80s? How about Android?

    Wow, I am so, so done seeking out a non-groupthink argument in this format ever. On any site. The memes are still better than Reddit though!

    Xatolos , (edited )
    @Xatolos@reddthat.com avatar

    [Thread, post or comment was deleted by the author]

    •
    Kribensis ,

    Ok ok, I'll give you what you seem to need. Let's step back a moment and recall the context of this thread: Apple's being shady as hell about complying with the DMA and everyone's piling on. I've noted that Apple is pretty greedy, but probably not as objectively evil as some other big tech companies, so this is a circlejerk. But, it's verboten to say that Apple's not terrible. I've also said that at least they innovate, but that's also verboten. You can't say Apple innovates. So, that's why we're here.

    Now, going from memory, I've listed some Apple products that I think were innovative for their time. You've made a few counterpoints. Btw, it did take some time for that reply. I hope you weren't... researching? If not, congratulations: you're fellow GenX and either you have an eidetic memory or you work in UI/UX. Either way, you did teach me a couple of things, so thanks for that.

    Let's go point by point:

    • MS stole from Xerox and Apple did too, but Apple was sued - You didn't mention that Xerox lost the case, since you can't patent the concept of a UI. Also, Apple released their first Mac more than a year before Microsoft released Windows 1.0, which by all measure was utterly atrocious and looked slapped together. Are you sure Microsoft didn't borrow from Apple instead of Xerox? You're leaving out all the context here and I don't come away thinking the early Macs were not innovative.
    • Apple stole from LG when they noticed Google was building a mobile OS - You didn't mention that although LG sued Apple, Apple then produced design docs that proved they'd been working on that years earlier... and LG lost the case. I'm not even going to bother linking to Wikipedia. I didn't remember the Prada, though. You omitted things here too, so I'm not feeling like the iPhone wasn't innovative. It was the first commercially viable smartphone. You make a good point that Apple and Google were in an arms race on smartphones, though I'm not sure if you knew you were making that point. Of course, Google being Google, they bought the solution, still got beaten to the market, and then Android absolutely sucked ass for years anyway. Not to mention, early Android was basically iOS with a Google search box and moar telemetry.
    • 192 kbps existed and so do hardware DACs - I didn't know what DACs were, so thanks for that. But, I wonder if anyone could hear the difference on the headphones of the time? I also hadn't heard of the Cowon and don't know anyone who had one. I wonder if they sold... eleven units? Maybe you meant Creative Zen? Creative sold a ton of MP3 players and I had a few, but the iPod was much better. This is a straw man argument anyway, though. You're saying that since one random MP3 player that nobody bought had a better DAC, and also that 192 kbps exists (this is literally just offered randomly), the iPod was not innovative. I'm not sure it's working out for you.

    As for this:

    The real issue for you isn’t your “done seeking out a non-group think argument”, the reality is you are desperately looking for a group-think group that only sees Apple as some all mighty and infallible company that can do no wrong and none can do better than them. I wish you the best of luck finding such a group, but as you’ve noticed, it won’t be here.

    That sounds great. If I were 20, I'd be very intimidated and I'd feel cast out. I'd be sad. But actually, that's ... another straw man argument! Love those. I'm "desperately" looking for a group that thinks Apple is all-mighty, I won't find it here, good luck with that, etc. Well yes, but actually no. Congrats on proving that a thing I never said is unavailable to me 😂

    That took 20 minutes and I could have done literally anything else with that time. I should bill you.

    dustyData , (edited )

    Hey man, pick one. Are we supposed to debunk your comment point by point, like you demanded of me. Or is it wasting minutes to destroy your corporate dribble. Make up your mind.

    Here's a new fallacy for you baby, this one doesn't have big words so it is easier to remember: “moving the goalpost”.

    Kribensis ,

    So for you, you're objectively not smart enough to have the debate with. You're all set, you don't need to do anything 👍

    dustyData ,

    Objectively not smart

    And you complained about reddit. Dude, you are the worst of reddit. What a disgrace you moved here.

    Kribensis ,

    Dude! Bro! Son!

    MrSpArkle ,

    They existed before iPod, they just didnt get the marketing blitz Apple did. Cowon comes to mind, and had much better quality audio.

    I did some research on this, because I was a big fan of MP3 players in the late 90s early 2000s and never heard of them. Turns out that the only Cowon Mp3 player I could find from around the iPod launch was the iAudio CW200, which had a capacity of 256MB.

    This explains why I had never heard of it, as I was shopping for HDD-based players that could hold my entire library(I was looking at PJB, Nomad, Archos, etc).

    Sorry but this illustrates OP's point. The iPod was the smallest HDD-based player on the market for years, all the other HDD players were chunky and could barely fit in a pocket. All the flash-based players had pitiful capacity. It wasn't that there were no MP3 players, it was that all the products had compromises that made them not ready for mass adoption.

    While OP is overstating some things, your counter examples are rife with oversights like this.

    As an example you are badmouthing Apple's "low resolution displays", while missing the fact that the MacBook Pro was the first ever mass market high dpi laptop. Ironically Samsung had produced a limited production laptop with a similar screen, but because Samsung lacks focus and had 1000 different laptop SKUs, they didn't make it a premiere feature of their brand, instead Apple simply bought out Samsung's entire manufacturing capacity for years and put them in their laptops.

    This is the pattern. There are interesting technologies, but they are in products with mediocre design or appeal, and are not mass produced. Apple identifies these technologies, optimizes them, integrates them, ensures that there is a good user experience, makes a million of them, makes a billion on that, then changes the entire landscape of the market they entered by virtue of their success.

    Meowoem ,

    Everyone says I'm dumb when I simp for a shitty corporation that exists on hype alone

    It must be because I'm so superior to every tech community on the web and they're circlejetking

    Lol

    bufordt ,
    @bufordt@sh.itjust.works avatar

    The iPod was so derivative of the creative labs mp3 player that Apple ultimately had to pay them $100 million.

    The Lisa and later the Macintosh copied from xerox. Something that everyone was doing around then. Amiga and Atari ST both had guis. Hell even the commodore 64 had Geos. The Mac didn't even get color until 1987.

    Handspring had a smart phone, complete with touch screen and apps, years before the iPhone.

    Mac os didn't have proper multitasking until version 7.5, years after Windows had it.

    Onkyo created the first true wireless earbuds.

    abhibeckert ,

    Is this a sleazy thing to do? Yup

    That makes it illegal. The DMA explicitly requires gatekeepers be "proactive" (that's their words) towards opening up their platform. Removing features just in the EU is the opposite of that.

    Specal ,

    They do sell good products... Kinda. But they are professional scalpers and scammers. iPhones get their performance nerfed via software after a few years to force you to upgrade. They charge Quadruple price for ram upgrades in their laptops. Now they're removing, not dropping support, but actively removing a feature that they themselves do not have to develop to stop you installing a feature on a device that you pay for.

    Apple do not make superior products, apart from the iPad that's a genuinely superior product. They sell a walled garden that you have to pay continuous subscriptions to stay in. The subscription in this sense is their app store.

    Rai ,

    My five year old iPhone runs like it did when I first got it, and I’ve never formatted it.

    BReel ,

    My dads iPhone 8 is finally starting to lose some of its battery life. But it’s overall performance is totally fine.

    I think a lot of people forget that most humans doesn’t need 100000000000gb of ram and 20trillion gbs of storage.

    I’m using 65gb of storage, including the os… on my baseline 128gb model.

    Most people aren’t editing 8k videos on their iPhones lol. They’re sending a text message.

    Rai ,

    Yeah seriously. This community hates Apple so much, but so many people here know nothing about their hardware or software. It’s really bizarre. I’m a Windows/Linux user, but I’ve got an iPhone because it’s the absolute best for longevity and privacy if you want a device where you don’t have to fuck about. I’m on my computers all day, I don’t want to have to think about my phone at all.

    Prandom_returns ,

    create new product categories

    [chasing goose meme]

    Like what?

    LIKE WHAT MOTHERFUCKER!?

    maynarkh ,

    Rounded corners I guess.

    bitwolf ,

    Besides iPod and iPhone. What product category did Apple create that wasn't there already?

    Imo Apple rolls good solutions, but they very rarely actually innovate.

    dustyData ,

    they build good products

    Which they charge x4 the value, and always underdeveloped one or two key features in order to scalp further inordinate amounts of money from their users to overcome the underperforming feature they neutered intentionally. Anyone buying from Apple is a chump getting taken advantage of and somehow is convinced to be proud of being abused by a corp.

    DirigibleProtein ,

    A lot of kerfuffle over not much. If you’re going to release a web app instead of a proper app, then I’m quite happy to have a bookmark to the web page instead of a bullshit fake app wrapping the same bookmark. Don’t clutter my phone with that garbage.

    QuandaleDingle ,

    And you're right for feeling that way, but having more choices is always better, not less. Apple doesn't care for how you use their software if it isn't the way they want it.

    Ghostalmedia ,
    @Ghostalmedia@lemmy.world avatar

    Most PWAs are trash, but there are some nice ones out there that feel a lot better when you ditch the browser chrome. Voyager for Lemmy is a good one. It feels native.

    abhibeckert ,

    Most native apps are trash too.

    Nomad ,

    Progressive web apps do much more than just wrap a bookmark....

    rikudou OP ,

    Well, I'm definitely not paying Apple $99 a year to be on their shit store, so I've opted for PWA. It's made as an app from the scratch, not really much different from a native app.

    abhibeckert ,

    It's more than that - for example in Safari after seven days with a bookmark, all data the website stores on device is deleted.

    With a PWA saved to your home screen, your data is kept until you delete the icon from your home screen.

    Also, PWAs don't have a browser toolbar.

    Marthirial ,

    That shit brand created a cult for dimwits thinking they are better and smarter than everybody else by becoming platform slaves, and thus be exploited, as their only benefit of their deficiencies and dependency is consumism.

    Tautvydaxx ,

    In real life ive never met anyone who thinks owning one brand of things makes you better than anyone else. If you have friends that think that way, maybe dont be friends with them, thats toxic. If it realy annoys you, block them so you dont see them online, lower the negativity impact on your mind. If you dont want to support a brand that has a product you want, buy it used so they dont get any money.

    dustyData ,

    I guess you haven't met the San Francisco twats that were driving around in Teslas while wearing Vision Pros. Just because you haven't met one doesn't mean they don't exist.

    viking ,
    @viking@infosec.pub avatar

    Fuck apple with a cactus.

    hemmes , (edited )
    @hemmes@lemmy.world avatar

    Lol, what phone are you using?

    Edit: Why am I being downvoted? The dude said to fuck someone with a cactus. That's hilarious - no one else thinks that's funny? I'm still laughing lol

    viking ,
    @viking@infosec.pub avatar

    OnePlus 10 pro.

    Would never sacrifice the flexibility and customizability of an Android device for the clunky and unintuitive UI of an iPhone.

    scarilog ,

    You can say many things about apple but clunky and unintuitive would not be it.

    TheGrandNagus , (edited )

    You only find Apple's UI intuitive because you're used to it.

    I don't find it intuitive at all. Whenever I've used an iPhone, I've had to ask for help.

    And I'm a full stack web developer, who contributes to some other software projects in my spare time. I've been around computers a fair bit.

    Operating systems these days are complicated. It's difficult to make them immediately intuitive to a new user. This isn't a dig at Apple. Any modern, highly featured OS is like this.

    PrivateNoob ,
    @PrivateNoob@sopuli.xyz avatar

    I've tried an Iphone XR for 1 month. It's intuitive, but Android is too.

    aniki ,

    Same. I have no idea how to use an iphone. Even basic things are frustrating.

    scarilog ,

    Just wanted to chime in that I'm not an apple user, I primarily use android and windows. iPad is the only iOS device I use. I flat out disagree with clunky, Apple's UI design (on iOS at least) is beautiful. UX wise, I can't comment on functional differences between Android and iOS, at this stage in time, both are comparably usable for most people.

    TheGrandNagus , (edited )

    Some apple user experience choices definitely feel clunky.

    Plugging an iPhone into a computer to move files around is a nightmare. The way notifications work on iOS is extremely clunky. Pairing non-apple devices to your apple device is purposely made clunky. Bastardising PWAs has led to them being clunky af.

    Using MacOS and having to memorise some wild keyboard shortcuts is clunky. Not being able to minimise a program by clicking the icon in the dock feels clunky. MacOS flipping out when you want to tile one window but not another feels clunky. Apple's workspace view and app menu view not being integrated together (a la Gnome Activities view) feels clunky. The whole app installation process (outside of the Mac store) is super clunky.

    Apple is extremely visually consistent. But they absolutely have UX clunkiness, just as the others do. It's fine though, most people don't care. I'm pretty anal about these things.

    hemmes ,
    @hemmes@lemmy.world avatar

    I mean this is all subjective of course, but something like installing apps on macOS is extremely easy. Like Windows, apps can install themselves in about three or so different ways (not including managed devices), but most macOS apps you download are simply dragged into the applications folder - that's it. To uninstall, you drag the app to the trash bin and empty the trash.

    TheGrandNagus ,

    To me that sounds clunky as fuck.

    dustyData ,

    I compel you to try to snap to tile a single windows to a side of the desktop in a macOS fresh install.

    spoiler

    You can't because, to do that thing that every single desktop environment can do out of the box, you need to install a third party app on macOS. This and many other QoL features that are bog standard on Windows and Linux today are not present on macOS.

    Now, I want you to tell me out of the top of your head, what does pressing the green button achieves on the window for Safari? Do you think it will do the same on the settings window? What will it do for the App Store? Do you think it will do the same thing on all three or three different things? Which one do you expect?

    Final challenge, make the window for the calculator stay on top of all other windows.

    hemmes ,
    @hemmes@lemmy.world avatar

    So why fuck Apple? You're using an Android device, Apple has updated their software in a way that doesn't compel you to want to try an Apple device, end of story why all the vitriol?

    I could see, maybe, if you were already an Apple user and wanted them to make a change that you want on your device. But having so much hate for a device you have no intention of using anyway?

    rbits ,

    This change impacts every mobile user, not just iPhone users. iPhones are a good portion of the userbase of most apps/websites. For PWAs to gain mass adoption, it needs to be available for the majority of users. This change means that will not be the case in the EU.

    PWAs have just been doomed by Apple, and unless Apple reverts this change, they will now never be successful in the EU. And probably not even outside of the EU since non-european products still have european users.

    hemmes ,
    @hemmes@lemmy.world avatar

    I don't think that's why this guy is mad

    TheBat ,
    @TheBat@lemmy.world avatar

    Motorola

    hemmes ,
    @hemmes@lemmy.world avatar

    My man!

    ninekeysdown ,
    @ninekeysdown@lemmy.world avatar

    I got it and it made me laugh

    Mango ,

    Sideways.

    autotldr Bot ,

    This is the best summary I could come up with:

    Apple is officially axing support for progressive web apps for iPhone users located in the European Union.

    While web apps have been broken for EU users in every iOS 17.4 beta so far, Apple has now confirmed that this is a feature, not a bug.

    In an update to its developer website spotted by 9to5Mac, Apple says it’s removing homescreen apps for users in the EU because bringing them into compliance with the Digital Markets Act (DMA) would involve “an entirely new integration architecture” that’s “not practical” to build on top of the other changes it’s been forced to make.

    In its post, Apple argues that web apps are built “directly on WebKit” — the engine used by Safari — allowing web apps to “align with the security and privacy model for native apps on iOS.” With the change to iOS 17.4, websites added to the homescreen now act only as bookmarks that open a new tab in your browser, rather than (potentially) standalone services capable of doing things like sending notifications and showing badges, a feature Apple just added to web apps last year.

    Progressive web apps on iOS are also capable of storing data separately from your browser instance, which comes in handy if there’s a site you want quick access to and don’t want to keep signing in.

    “Still, we regret any impact this change — that was made as part of the work to comply with the DMA — may have on developers of Home Screen web apps and our users.” Apple cites “very low user adoption” of homescreen apps as another reason for the lack of support.

    The original article contains 399 words, the summary contains 272 words. Saved 32%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!

    RiQuY ,

    TL;DR: Fuck Apple.

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