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hahattpro ,

this is a trap to upsell you 16 GB or sell you upgrade

A_Random_Idiot ,
@A_Random_Idiot@lemmy.world avatar

for grossly inflated pricing, in proud apple tradition.

guiguinofake ,

You can't upgrade a Macbook's ram, you need to replace the whole machine

whereisk ,

It's also a nice way to tax their poorest customers more. A lot of people are keeping their machines way past what apple provides updates for, if the ssd that can't be changed dies (because of constant swapping) faster than what they intended or could keep the machine for, I guess it's too bad for them.

Grass ,

It's totally so they can list a really low "starting at" price and then upsell marked up parts in the configurator.

Disclaimer: I didn't read the article and just came in to shit on scummy business practices that I made assumptions about.

jose1324 ,

Your assumption is based and factual

mohammed_alibi ,

Such a weird hill to die on for Apple. How much does it really cost to just add 8GB more RAM? $5?

EarMaster ,

Acknowledging that 8GB only delivers mediocre performance at best would upset anyone who already bought a device with only 8GB. And as later upgrades are not supported by Apple it would abandon these users like buyers of a 1st gen Apple device...

Xanxia ,

The fun think is that I don't think apple would mind abandoning these people. Most of them would just buy a new device.

TCB13 ,
@TCB13@lemmy.world avatar

This is just like the iPhone (lack of) storage and the (lack of) SD cards. Apple is trying to maximize profits by using less RAM and by forcing people into buying more hardware in a few years. Apple does a lot of stuff very well but then they also pull this crap.

EdibleFriend ,
@EdibleFriend@lemmy.world avatar

My guess is they're going to sell like hotcakes to clueless parents whose kids insist their first laptop needs to be apple

KingThrillgore ,
@KingThrillgore@lemmy.ml avatar

Its all on-die not on the board, so Apple gets to charge you more.

sturmblast ,

Apple has their niche, but you'll never find me owning a Mac. They are not useful for me. And fuck the proprietary nature of Apple in general.

That being said, I run 64GB of RAM and it's glorious!

sugar_in_your_tea ,

Yup, I have a Mac for work and I'm not a fan, I don't even like the look of them, much less the UX. The keyboards suck, they don't have actual mouse buttons on their laptops (I really miss my middle mouse button), and the gestures on the trackpad annoy me. I use a Logitech mouse (MX Master 3 at work, Triathlon at home), and both are way nicer than anything I've used from Apple.

I much prefer my Linux machines at home. They don't lock up, my laptop (Lenovo ThinkPad) has real mouse buttons and the Trackpoint, the package manager just works, and updates don't take forever and a day like on macOS. Oh, and I use Docker for work, and on Linux it uses far fewer resources because I don't need a full VM.

Oh, and I can easily add more RAM to both of my Linux machines. I am not interested in any Apple products, and them selling with 8gb RAM just makes no sense to me since memory upgrades are so expensive and must be done at the time of purchase. So screw em.

olympicyes ,

I have a Linux workstation and a MacBook. The arguments about keyboard and trackpad are personal preference at best. You can use whatever external devices you want with the Mac. I used Logitech mice with mine too.

If you want a package manager on Mac use Homebrew. It’s better than you’d expect for a system that doesn’t include a native package manager. I use docker on both Mac and Linux and can’t really tell the difference.

I bought my last MacBook with 64gb ram. It was probably overkill but I didn’t see any reason not to since you can get one refurb for essential 50% off.
It sucks that you can’t upgrade the ram, so make sure you have a good idea what you need when you’re buying the machine. Anyone buying one with 8gb is essentially buying a Chromebook. That’s not adequate for a power user like you.

sugar_in_your_tea ,

Yes, it's personal preference, but I can't realistically use an external keyboard and mouse on an airplane or whatever. I like my ThinkPad way more than my MacBook Pro for actually getting work done. It feels nicer to type on, and my hands don't need to leave the home row to press mouse buttons. Apple's trackpad is nicer, but I think it's solving the wrong problem.

That said, I have a very keyboard-driven workflow. I use:

  • ViM for editing
  • terminal for searching (macOS' open is nice)
  • shortcuts for switching apps (alt+tab and `alt+`` mostly)
  • tmux for terminal window management

That mostly maps to macOS decently well, but there's also random differences I need to work around.

use Homebrew

I use macports, which I much prefer.

Rant about homebrew

Homebrew feels bolted on, macports feels more like an actual package manager. Stuff keeps working across macOS releases, which is nice because o use fish as my shell and don't want to fix that every time I do an upgrade.

Rant about macOS as a dev

But it feels like putting lipstick on a pig. I constantly have to fight builders that grab the system version of something instead of my macports one (I think I've resolved everything now?), especially Python. I can't do system upgrades through it. And so on. It's just an add-on package manager, and while it's nice, there's friction at the edges.

That said, I very much prefer macOS to Windows, but I prefer pretty much anything else to macOS. I would prefer FreeBSD if it had better hardware and docker support.

I use docker on both Mac and Linux and can’t really tell the difference.

Do you have Docker Desktop or CLI-only? Because IIRC Docker Desktop on Linux runs in a VM like on macOS, whereas CLI Docker ruins directly on the kernel, so it's way faster.

Here's some practical issues I have with Docker Desktop on macOS:

  • random breakage where I have to restart Docker (the VM, not an individual container) - i.e. "API version doesn't match..." like every other week
  • uses way more RAM - containers are just processes on Linux
  • disk space is separated and needs to be adjusted if I forget to run a prune - docker on Linux just uses my regular disk
  • rebuilding is kinda slow - assuming a Docker Desktop issue because "sending tarball" takes forever

We have a bunch of docker containers, and I'm regularly running 10+. I feel like I'm constantly fiddling with Docker on macOS, whereas it's mostly transparent on my Linux machines.

So to me, it's just a crappier experience. I honestly can't think of a single upside, other than the pretty GUI, but learning a few CLI commands is a small price to pay IMO.

And that is also my general experience with macOS. It looks pretty, but it just feels like I'm interacting with the system way too much, whereas on Linux the system gets out of the way.

Rant about macOS

Some specifics:

  • "snapping" Windows - macOS kinda has this now, but Linux has had it for as long as in remember (15 years?)
  • launcher (Alt+F2 or Meta) on KDE Plasma is unobtrusive
  • the system updates when I tell it to, not overnight randomly
  • Steam actually works for most games
  • Flatpak and Appimage are nice
Rant about work policy

If my work let me pick whatever computer I wanted, it would probably be a Framework or Lenovo laptop with Linux. But my options are locked down, crappy Windows (IT box) or MacBook Pro (no IT nonsense), so I pick macOS.

In fact, I think only 2 of my coworkers prefer macOS, but we use them to get around IT policies and the outside team that started the project convinced the uppers that we need it. However, as a lead, I need to be the support for our team, which means I should probably use the same devices as them.

My last job let me pick my OS, so I ran Arch for 5-ish years before switching to openSUSE Tumbleweed, which I still run today (like 5+ years now). I'm not going to leave because of Linux vs macOS and I love my team and boss, but I do prefer Linux.

Anyway, I'm kinda excited because I'll be getting an upgrade soon. I'm on an Intel Mac, but I could get an M3 if I push, or maybe I'll wait for the M4. I'd much rather run Linux on that hardware though.

olympicyes ,

It sounds like you want to have a mobile server, which makes sense too for some use cases. I just switched from 2018 Intel to M1 Pro Max and the difference is absurd. They were giving them away at MicroCenter refurb so I got one with overkill specs. Sometimes you can throw hardware at your problem and in this case it worked. It is faster, quieter, cooler, longer battery life, etc. I use BetterTouchTool to address some of the UI issues you noted and forget I have it until I use someone else’s Mac.

I initially set up the new machine via Thunderbolt and copied the apps, which was a mistake. That said every homebrew installed app worked. It was not too hard to purge the Intel homebrew and reinstall the Apple silicon version, and battery life got much better after doing so. Apple Silicon is a game changer. Everything I’ve seen about M4 says it’s supposed to be on TSMC N3E. Personally I’d go with whichever generation lets you get the most ram and ssd.

sugar_in_your_tea ,

I'm a fullstack engineer that mostly focuses on backend, so yeah, I basically want a copy of our production app running on my work computer. I have Docker configured so it only uses 4GB or so, but when I add our frontend (1-2GB), web browser (1-2GB), Microsoft crap (1-2GB), etc, the RAM adds up, and that's just running half of our backend infrastructure.

The silly thing is that almost all of my job is on Linux services, except our mobile app, which is React native and largely targets iOS (though we also support Android). I work across the stack so I need to be able to run all three (backend, web, and mobile).

But I have to pick and choose what I run because my 16GB system is barely enough. So yeah, I wish we would've gotten 32GB at the outset, because swapping to disk is by far the biggest performance issue.

So yeah, get more memory than you think you need.

olympicyes ,

I'd appreciate hearing your thoughts about this medium article describing the use of Lima VM for docker on MacOS.

https://medium.com/@guillem.riera/the-most-performant-docker-setup-on-macos-apple-silicon-m1-m2-m3-for-x64-amd64-compatibility-da5100e2557d

sunbunman ,

And I'm here contemplating upgrading to 32 GB...

cdegallo ,

I built a gaming PC for the first time since ~20 years ago. Decided to dump 64gb into it for no good reason other than ram is cheap and I figured I might as well.

8gb...jeebus.

aphlamingphoenix ,

I did the same thing. It's one of the cheapest upgrades you can get for a PC, but Apple will charge triple the actual cost to maximize profits.

Blueteamsecguy ,

This is not exclusive to Apple, any pre-built reseller does the same thing, Apple just has their flair of a little bit more

sugar_in_your_tea ,

Yup. My MacBook Pro for work has 16GB and I keep running out of RAM. I can't fathom being limited to 8GB...

I guess it works for basic browsing and whatnot, but for any kind of professional work, you're going to have a bad time.

anon_8675309 ,

The reality distortion field is collapsing.

Veedem ,
@Veedem@lemmy.world avatar

Everyone’s experience and usage is different, but I have a base M2 MacBook Air with 8gb of RAM and besides web browsing, streaming/air playing some videos, and typing some documents, I don’t do much else. I never feel the need for more RAM.

GBU_28 ,

Who cares? Buy em or don't.

smileyhead ,

8GB of RAM is perfectly usable, but on a new computer, with that price, non-upgradable... ech...

accidentalloris ,

I daily drove a laptop with 8gb of RAM less than a year ago. Works just fine for most tasks. Granted, at Apples typical price point, I'd want more than that, but it is far from unusable. Running VMs wasn't fun though.

uranibaba ,

How did you do that? My laptop is at 14gb now and I am not using it (typing on phone)

PraiseTheSoup ,

My mid-range smartphone from 2022 has 8gb of ram. I paid $250 for it brand new.

hessenjunge ,

Do you have a Kimovil link for this incredible phone?

bruhduh ,
@bruhduh@lemmy.world avatar

Poco x3 pro 8/256, and it have 3.5 jack and microsd slot, i still using one, in fact I'm writing from it right now

ripcord ,
@ripcord@lemmy.world avatar

Yeah, my (sigh) "Motorola Moto G Stylus 5G 2023" has 8GB. And the 3.5 jack. And an actual fingerprint sensor. And I spent $160, although I bought it used.

bruhduh ,
@bruhduh@lemmy.world avatar

Why sigh tho) i always saying that obscure devices have the best peripheral support, no need to buy popular devices because they often skimp on peripherals and overpriced, be proud my man) you have good phone for good money after all

ripcord ,
@ripcord@lemmy.world avatar

Sigh was because I was about to type out that stupid-ass name :)

I like the phone a lot.

PraiseTheSoup ,

That is the phone I was originally referring to, except mine in the 2022 version. And I understand the sigh. I do it every time someone asks me what kind of phone I have.

hessenjunge ,

https://www.kimovil.com/en/where-to-buy-xiaomi-poco-x3-pro-256gb

Listed at $322 currently, meaning you bought it half price or less in ‘22. Good purchase!

dukatos ,

Don't forget 120Hz screen. The phone has a great value. I paid mine €290 two years ago and I am not replacing it any time soon.

bruhduh ,
@bruhduh@lemmy.world avatar

Even more, kernel source code is available and xda-developers community on device is active, unofficial support gonna be really long term, since 2 years of usage i just swapped battery on mine once, it's truly a long lived phone

PiratePanPan ,
@PiratePanPan@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Overpowered Chinese phones sold at minimal margins my beloved

Entropywins ,

My 6 year old CHROMEBOOK has 16gb...

ripcord ,
@ripcord@lemmy.world avatar

My 13 year old MB has 16GB.

It came with 8GB and at some point I spent $50 or so to add another 8GB.

You know, back when upgrading Macs was a thing.

Moreless ,

Ok Gramps, we need to get you to bed now

ripcord ,
@ripcord@lemmy.world avatar

Pretty sad trolling effort

PiratePanPan ,
@PiratePanPan@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Because Chrome takes up 75% of it.

Laugh. I made fun of Chrome.

Entropywins ,

Wamp wamp so true

werefreeatlast ,

My car radio update would have much more than that! LOL.

steventrouble , (edited )

I disagree with this article.

I do all my development on the cheapest MacBook Air, which has the old M1 and only 8GB of RAM. It was $500, which is cheaper than most Windows workstations. I've never noticed performance issues, and I work on some absolute monsters of projects, including game dev in Rust and Godot.

In particular, it works waaaay better for Rust and TypeScript dev than my $3k Dell laptop, because unlike my Dell laptop it doesn't crash every 3 hours and the battery lasts longer than 30 minutes. I can run docker with my full stack and it stays cool as a cucumber, no noticeable lag.

PlexSheep ,

By any chance, does that dell run windows?

steventrouble ,

Nah, I don't fux with Windows. Arch

ulterno ,
@ulterno@lemmy.kde.social avatar

But can it compile UE4 from source?

explanation

If you compile using multiple threads by core count and low RAM, you may see crashes depending upon size and configuration of the project.

Cheems ,
@Cheems@lemmy.world avatar

sure it could! It would just take two weeks!

ulterno ,
@ulterno@lemmy.kde.social avatar

But not with the default option of using as many threads as there are CPU cores.

steventrouble ,

I try not compile things unnecessarily when a plugin would be just as good. Waste not want not. 🤷

Not trying to kink shame, I just don't get off on wasting CPU cycles for no reason. You do you.

ulterno ,
@ulterno@lemmy.kde.social avatar

Please do educate me on as to how to get Unreal Engine 4 as a "plugin" (of what?) without building it.

The only ways I see to get UE4 on Linux is to install the AUR, which compiles from source, or Compile it with your own settings from the GitHub project.

steventrouble ,

https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/unreal-engine-bin

ulterno ,
@ulterno@lemmy.kde.social avatar

Sorry, that didn't work last time I tried.

sabin ,

Just because you can get away with 8 does not mean you should. Go google around and find just how cheap an additional 8 gb of laptop RAM is these days.

steventrouble , (edited )

Just because you can buy 64GB of RAM doesn't mean you need it. Laptops these days are more powerful than supercomputers used to be. If you just spend a little time tuning your applications you barely need any RAM.

sabin ,

I didn't say 64. I said 16 which is perfectly reasonable. Your comment reads like damage control from an apple employee.

steventrouble ,

I'm pretty sure you said 128 terabytes of RAM

Poem_for_your_sprog ,

laughs in 64GB ram

bruhduh ,
@bruhduh@lemmy.world avatar

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/9b0f9ea6-2efe-4c05-87f1-6e9466a443eb.jpeg

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