In a statement, Kentucky Attorney General Russell Coleman accused President Biden of being “willing to sacrifice the American auto industry and its workers in service of its radical green agenda.”
If you look up the 10 most "Made in America" cars, the top 4 slots by a huge margin are Tesla Model 3,Y,S,X , which are all EVs, and they are at near 100% (or 100% for some models). There isn't another American car brand on the list. So when Coleman is talking about sacrificing American auto workers, who's he talking about? A car that is 40% American because all the parts are made in China or Mexico and there's some final assembly done in the USA?
P.S. Musk is an idiot, though I'm not sure that needs to be said anymore as its so obvious.
the top 4 slots by a huge margin are Tesla Model 3,Y,S,X
Is that true? I saw recently that 95% of Tesla's cars are the Model Y. I assume a huge chunk of the remaining 5% is the Model 3, leaving very few Model S and X cars on the road. I'd be very surprised to hear that either one of them is in the top 4 best selling American made cars.
I’d be very surprised to hear that either one of them is in the top 4 best selling American made cars.
I said nothing about top sales. I said "most made in America". As in: of all cars sold in the USA, what are the top 10 which contain the most American manufactured parts and labor".
Oh gotcha, I misunderstood. Yes they are very much made in America. Seeing people complain about them and acting patriotic because they drive a Ford cracks me up.
how was that figured out? most evs have a less complex manufacturing process and rely on a shitload of electronic components that aren't manufactured domestically. i'd be interested to see the methodology!
i meant the claim that teslas are the top made in america cars. i looked and found cars.com's list of the most made in america cars and their dubious Made in America Index and that's about it.
i also want to just throw an electronics manufacturing industry scoff at the CBOs methodology. i used to work for an electronics manufacturer that did mostly pcb assembly. a bunch of the work was government contracts or prestige stuff that had to say "made in USA" on it as opposed to the more clear symbol of a hollowed out manufacturing sector, "assembled in USA". every day truckloads of parts from china would get soldered to PCBs from iirc taiwan and that was enough to earn made versus assembled.
How do you think technology matures? It took years for automobiles to become reliable like they are today. It'll take years for EVs to become mature, but the only way to do that is to work on them now and improve as we go along. The absolute wrong thing to do is throw out the entire concept because they aren't perfect now.
Agreed. The innumerable problems that coincide with fossil fuel based technology means it's a terrible idea to continue to subsidize it at taxpayer expense.
So I take it you're against the government subsidizing science research in general? "The government shouldn't fund new technology" is a stupid and destructive position. We'd be living in the 1800s if it were up to solely the capitalistic market. I mean, the first broadly effective antibiotics that are responsible for saving probably hundreds of millions of lives at least only exist because of people working in government-funded labs, under government-funded universities, for the government. Why should the environment be treated like it doesn't matter to our civilization?
What’s the plan if we run out of oil? I mean seriously, it’s gonna happen eventually. Even if you want to ignore the science on climate change, you can’t ignore basic laws of the universe that oil is a finite resource. If we don’t have a plan for when it runs out, there will be utter chaos.
There's not going to be a moment when the world suddenly goes from having oil to having no oil. Some oil reserves are relatively cheap and easy to extract. Other, very large reserves are currently so difficult and expensive to extract that doing so isn't profitable. As the easy oil gradually runs out, the supply drops, the price rises, and sources of oil that were not profitable at the old price become profitable. This maintains the supply of oil and stabilizes the price.
Eventually oil will become so expensive that alternative technologies will be cheaper than it. This will happen with plenty of hard-to-reach oil left. So it's true that the amount of oil is in principle finite, but that limitation isn't really relevant.
So prices will go up until you and me will get around with rickshaw. Whoever is poorer pulls the other. And while we bump forth; we wont have to worry about continued plastic pollution. Our rickshaw is made of metal and wood.
Carbon prices and other incentives and disincentives can help accelerate this, and renewable tech and green(er) manufacturing will play into this too. I suspect (and hope) the decline in oil usage will happen well before we run low on it.
you can’t ignore basic laws of the universe that oil is a finite resource
TLDR - oil might be a finite resource but gasoline is not oil and it can be renewable. But it's also a rapidly shrinking market.
The stuff can literally be grown on trees. It's cheaper to pump it out of the ground, but it's actually not much cheaper. Fuel from plants, which we farm in bulk for human consumption, can absolutely be used to create gasoline. It's also net-zero — because the plant takes carbon out of the atmosphere to create the oil and then it's simply returned to the atmosphere when your burn it.
Most gasoline in the USA contains at least 10% biofuel, and some is up to 85%. The latter requires an engine tuned to run on it, however it's possible (and is an area of active research) if you're willing to spend a bit more money to manufacture 100% pure biofuel that can run on unmodified engines. Porsche in particular has started selling a biofuel that is specifically designed to run on classic cars that were manufactured decades ago. They plan to produce something like a million gallons a month of the stuff, and it will work in basically any car. And if you have a classic car (designed for gasoline that contained lead) then it will work better than the fossil fuel you can buy at a gas station
The thing is though, battery powered vehicles are way cheaper than doing any of that. And if you really need a fuel based approach (e.g. batteries are just too heavy for large aircraft), then Hydrogen is a better option than any biofuel.
So - while gasoline can technically be environmentally friendly and is a usable source of energy for the foreseeable future, in reality it's destined to follow horse drawn carriages and steam engines, a technology some people only use for their own personally enjoyment or to preserve our history.
Growing crops to make ethanol is not particulatly green. In fact, in most existing production loops we would be better off environmentally to just burn pure gasoline than produce the ethanol to mix into it, unfortunately. Too much water, too many tractors and trucks, and way too much electricity into ethanol production to be worth what we get out of it. And the bit of carbon the crops sequester doesn't overcome it. Electric vehicles are by far the greenest option right now.
Not to mention ethanol (what the previous person kept referring to as "gasoline") is far less efficient, can only be used in high quantities on certain types of engines, and creates excessive smog during warmer months.
Don't forget that every acre of corn grown for ethanol is one less acre of food grown and when you increase from 10% ethanol to 100%, you're going to need 10x the amount of land to grow these crops all so we can pay top dollar at the pump to live in smog filled cities and get 10MPG in our vehicles.
Die. We will die. The only crutch that props up our massive jump from 1 billion pre industrialized society to our current 8 billion human beings on this planet, has been cheap and plentiful fossil fuel. Notably, it is the only thing that has allowed us to practice agriculture on a scale that supports our population growth. When it’s gone, there is nothing to replace it, short of a miracle fusion revolution.
The average carbon cost to produce an electric vehicle is about 6 tons on average, not including the battery, about the same as an ICE vehicle. Where does the energy for auto manufacturing come from? Primarily coal and natural gas, with a sliver of insubstantial wind and nuclear power. About 7 barrels of oil go into each and every tire on the road (between expended energy and actual petroleum products in the tire). Charging the battery? Coal, natural gas, and the same trickle of alternative sources mentioned above.
Speaking of those alternative energy sources, what do we use to make them? Building a nuclear power plant is likely the most carbon intensive process ever devised, from the machinery that moves the earth, to the foundry that makes the steel. As much as I’ve always wanted to believe in a cozy eco future, every time I squint a little I can see that it’s all just a coat of green paint over the same old oil field. The people trying to sell you on oil, and the people trying to sell you on alternatives to it, are doing the same thing. Selling you something. That’s all that matters to them.
There is no feasible alternative that changes the outcome. There is no replacement for what has allowed us to create wonders and horrors beyond our ancestors wildest dreams, and sustain a population far beyond anything we could have achieved without fossil fuels. When oil finally becomes unproductive, so will the mechanisms that hold our current civilization together, and we will wind up back in 1810 if we’re lucky, or 400ad if we aren’t.
Call me a doomer and downvote me or whatever. It doesn’t matter.
You’re getting too anxious about what every little thing costs the environment. Yes, you’re right, there’s no silver bullet that makes anything magically sustainable, but there also doesn’t have to be.
Pay more attention to the overall environmental cost, or the change in environmental cost. Of course we’ll never get to zero, but it’s quite possible to get to a sustainable level. The big example is always an EV: sure, it costs the environment a little more to make an EV than an ICE car, but looking at overall costs, you’ve already made that up after only two typical years of driving on most places. And that will only get better as manufacturing gets more efficient and power production gets more green
with a sliver of insubstantial wind and nuclear power
Dude, come on. Looking at US electricity production, yes, natural gas is the biggest. But nuclear production is about the same as coal. And renewables are about the same as coal. And coal is dropping like a rock while most new electricity production is renewables. Nuclear and renewables together are pushing 40%. Despite short sightedness from some of our corporate politicians, it’s way more than a sliver
But so what? Yes, there are dependencies and initial costs to the environment. Petroleum based energy and products are integrated throughout our economy, effectively everything is dependent on fossil fuels. Everyone gets it.
Building out things like nuclear power or EVs only effect the operations and only of those specific industries/products. It’s only a start but these are examples of great places to start, where we can make a significant and highly visible difference.
There’s a very long tail of things to work on, for the foreseeable future, but you can’t balk at less than perfect. Do one thing on the list. Then do the next
You've been led to believe all of this is a malthusian "die off" that the GOP will make happen one way (ruining the earth to maintain its special privilege) or another (bringing about some kind of holy war). Stop it.
"Kentucky Attorney General Russell Coleman accused President Biden of being “willing to sacrifice the American auto industry and its workers in service of its radical green agenda."
I mean we could try and transition workers from a more negative industry type to a positive one...but that seems like a lot of work and less profitable, so never mind.
What the actual fuck is wrong with Republican politicians? I mean, I already know what's wrong with Republican voters - brainwashing by years of Fox "News" - but the politicians? Are they all literal sociopaths?
No, they're just doing what they're being paid to do by special interest groups aka big business. It's not a bug and it's not a feature; it's the point. Optimal profits this quarter. Every quarter is a new quasi generation of executives who want a good quarter before moving on after x quarters.
That's a popular misconception. The philosophy behind conservatism is to perpetuate hierarchy. The ideology was developed by literal monarchists, and when the "divine right" excuse became untenable they moved on to others like racism and capitalism, but the goal remained the same. It only seems like they want to maintain the status quo because the historical status quo was hierarchical, but rest assured: if society were magically egalitarian instead, conservatives would vigorously try to make sweeping, wholesale changes to create a hierarchy from scratch.
Interesting insight. Thanks for the correction. Perhaps the choice of lexeme "conservatism" would best be swapped for a neologism like "hierarchism" or something to better describe the principles of the school of thought. Otherwise, I made the connection like OC that conservatism = no change, whether good or bad.
Otherwise, I made the connection like OC that conservatism = no change, whether good or bad.
That's exactly what they want you to think. It's one of the more prominent ways in which they launder their ideology to make it seem appealing to more people than just sociopaths. (Or at least, used to, until they went full mask-off under Trump.)
rustbelting makes voters transition from democrat to republican. you could argue that they actually benefit from declining industry, so of course they're going for it
And making more than the minimum the government requires them to make for quota. Demand is even there now, so there's no excuse other than the bottom line, plus a bit of cooperation with the oil companies.
“Just wait until the big players get into the game, then I’ll buy a good car”.
Imo the big players don’t deserve to survive this transition. They had their opportunity to spearhead it but instead literally chose to be on the wrong side of history.
Nothing stopping big players but greed to get into the EV game.
Perhaps they'd like to rollback all the times we've bailed out the auto industry. We don't want the government to be choosing winners and losers, after all.
As an American auto worker, I like our move to EVs and the jobs at the massive new factories we built. But I guess wanting blue collar workers learning new skills and technologies makes me a gay communist.
Especially since they love Russia now (because it's fascist), but the distinction between the communist USSR and the fascist Russian Federation confuses a lot of their base.
Tesla is an American company. The 'traditional' American auto companies like GM and Ford don't even build or source a lot of their parts in the US and Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep has been owned by a European company for quite a while now. This guy is a chump and I wish someone would have called him out on his BS.
This guy is a chump and I wish someone would have called him out on his BS.
It's no wonder. He's a Republican, so that automatically makes him a assbag. Also, Toyota has a Camry manufacturing plant in Georgetown, Ford assembles Escapes in Louisville, and of course GM makes Corvettes in Bowling Green, so it's no surprise that he'd be regressive towards automotive tech (even though Ford and SK are spending like $4 billion to build two battery manufactuing plants outside Louisville).
Maybe someone should create EV incentives, with a requirement to be manufactured in country - both incentive to buy and incentive to manufacturers to invest in guaranteed growth area, and for their own future. Oops, that’s what we already have
They already do: Ford has the Mach-E & F-150 Lightning plus a bunch of PHEVs, GM has (had) the Bolt, Stellantis makes a few PHEVs among which one of the the very few cars on the market that can carry 7 passengers on battery power (the Chrysler Pacifica) altough that one is made in Canada, not the US.
The funny part is that the US could just subsidize their EVs at the same rate and keep China out, but they'd rather sacrifice their whole auto industry to keep subsidizing oil.
I'm really tired of republicans calling anything democrats do "radical" or "extreme" when they're just pushing for the most mild stuff. I would die for some actual radical left ideas.
It's almost like one of the main functions a functioning federal government is to create and regulate new markets. But why bother politicians with work when they can just try to bully people into complacency.
Republican lawmakers are attempting to overturn the twin pillars of the Biden administration’s climate platform: tax credits for electric vehicles and the Environmental Protection Agency’s new rules to curb tailpipe emissions.
The effort involves new bills introduced by members of Congress, as well as lawsuits filed by state attorneys general, all with the goal of rolling back the minimal progress made by the Biden administration to reduce the share of planet-warming carbon emissions produced by the automotive sector.
Last month, 25 Republican attorneys general filed a lawsuit intended to overturn the EPA’s recently finalized tailpipe rules aimed at slashing greenhouse gas emissions in half by 2032.
In a statement, Kentucky Attorney General Russell Coleman accused President Biden of being “willing to sacrifice the American auto industry and its workers in service of its radical green agenda.”
In the final guidance, some automakers that have EV battery packs with imperceptible trace amounts of minerals like graphite that originate from China or other “foreign entities of concern” now have a two-year extension to fully adhere to the Inflation Reduction Act.
During the run-up to the November election, Republican politicians, led by former President Donald Trump, have seized on electric vehicles as a wedge issue in the ongoing culture wars.
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