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Rob ,

just use an Android.

hugetechnerd ,

I'd kill to get real firefox and extensions.

TCB13 ,
@TCB13@lemmy.world avatar

Expected... and then people criticize me when I say they'll get around the sideload requirement by simply requiring a special certificate / payment / vetting process. lol

MashedTech ,

Damn, such foresight

vamp07 ,
@vamp07@lemm.ee avatar

Just wait till the first security vulnerability are discovered in the code that now will be able to run on iOS and which Apple can't control directly. Nobody will remember that the cause was forcing Apple to open up their system. They will just blame Apple.

Allero ,

Mozilla itself lashed out at this decision, as it means they have to maintain both Gecko (for EU) and WebKit (for everybody else) editions of the browser.

This is, in essence, malicious compliance.

AlmightySnoo ,
@AlmightySnoo@lemmy.world avatar

Everyone should just move to the EU at this rate

ForgotAboutDre ,

Apple forcing WebKit on its mobile devices is one of the few things stopping Chrome's dominance on web standards. It controls the majority of the market. As well as most browsers that aren't chrome are using chrome's web engine such as Edge, brave, vilvaldi, opera, kiwi, Samsung web browser, electron etc.

This move is good for Firefox, and good for making web technologies more accessible.

However, it makes it easier for Google to force their vision for the future of the web. Now Google can push it's browser on to iOS users as a solution to web pages not rendering correctly in WebKit. Rather than being forced to adopt and implement common web standards that safari and Firefox also follow.

The best solution would be forcing all significant platforms to allow alternative browser engines (include iPads) and start to consider punishing websites that don't fully support all major browser engines. Such as safari, chrome and Firefox.

uis ,
@uis@lemmy.world avatar

WebKit is chromium basically. Or chromium is webkit. You get the idea.

If crapple wasn't so anti-consumer, EU wouldn't create law in first place.

ForgotAboutDre ,

Yeah, this is part of the big issue with chrome being internet explorer for this generation.

Chrome forking WebKit has the dog wagging the tail. Apple need to follow chrome's web 'standards', else they break compatibility. As well as the billions Google give Apple every year, no doubts influences their implementation of safari.

But this change means Chrome can stray further from WebKit and use this change to get people using chrome on apple devices.

The best thing for the future of the web is to use Firefox and boycott websites that don't support it. If another new browser technology comes about that too would be worth supporting.

uis ,
@uis@lemmy.world avatar

Or EU move to everyone. I wouldn't mind, EU is much better than bunker rat.

AlmightySnoo ,
@AlmightySnoo@lemmy.world avatar

"we should take Bikini Bottom and push it somewhere else" GIF

HowManyNimons ,

Maybe declare war on the EU and then surrender?

nostradiel ,
@nostradiel@lemmy.world avatar

I can see those stupid Americans buying eu phone variants for a premium price from scalpers. 😅

llamatron ,
@llamatron@lemmy.world avatar

That seems unnecessarily rude

ForgotAboutDre ,

A VPN might manage this. It could be a location based implementation.

Thinking about it your probably right, a sales based location is easier for apple to restrict and simpler to implement.

antrosapien ,

https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/7758e8f2-0eb5-4319-b6d2-8cb500912e3b.jpeg

https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/9240398f-ba21-4b3e-ab63-15e7e079342c.jpeg

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty,_and_doubt

wikibot Bot ,

Here's the summary for the wikipedia article you mentioned in your comment:

Fear, uncertainty and doubt (often shortened to FUD) is a manipulative propaganda tactic used in sales, marketing, public relations, politics, polling and cults. FUD is generally a strategy to influence perception by disseminating negative and dubious or false information, and is a manifestation of the appeal to fear.

^to^ ^opt^ ^out^^,^ ^pm^ ^me^ ^'optout'.^
^article^ ^|^ ^about^

ShortFuse ,

I thought you meant this:

Microsoft insisted that Internet Explorer (IE) was not a product but a feature that it was allowed to add to Windows, although the DOJ did not agree with this definition.[6]

The government alleged that Microsoft had abused monopoly power on Intel-based personal computers in its handling of operating system and web browser integration.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Corp.

Also in the EU:

Under the commitments approved by the Commission, Microsoft will make available for five years in the European Economic Area (through the Windows Update mechanism) a "Choice Screen" enabling users of Windows XP, Windows Vista and Windows 7 to choose which web browser(s) they want to install in addition to, or instead of, Microsoft's browser Internet Explorer.

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_09_1941

wikibot Bot ,

Here's the summary for the wikipedia article you mentioned in your comment:

United States of America v. Microsoft Corporation, 253 F. 3d 34 (D. C. Cir.

^to^ ^opt^ ^out^^,^ ^pm^ ^me^ ^'optout'.^
^article^ ^|^ ^about^

SuperSpruce ,

Apple. I live in the US. I'm thinking of replacing my current iPad with another tablet. If you let me have real Firefox, I'll probably buy a $750 iPad with a 1500% storage markup as my next tablet. If not, I'll choose an Android tablet. It's so simple, Apple. Huge profit or a lost customer. All because of something so easy to implement.

DreamlandLividity ,

I feel like "so easy to implement" still understates it. It is literally the default option: don't crate and enfore a dumb rule. They have to go out of their way to make their product shittier.

Also, you should not buy an apple product, if for no other reason, than because they can just change their mind at any time. As long as the appstore is the only way to install apps, you have no control over your own device.

SuperSpruce ,

The problem is that Android tablets in the US have little competition, allowing for very high prices. The Samsung Tab S9 series are more expensive than the iPad pros.

Also, basically all non-budget Android tablets outside of Samsung has copied Apple's anti-consumer decisions to remove the headphone jack and MicroSD slot from their tablets. There's not much reason to buy an Android tablet as Apple literally gives you superior performance per dollar.

Also in my case, my current iPad is the only way I can use iMessage, which is how almost all of my friends communicate. And, the iPad really does have the superior stylus experience with the Apple Pencil (I have one, and it works great).

One of the biggest weaknesses of the iPad is no true Firefox, which means that your best way to browse the web is through adblock Plus, or Brave browser. They block most ads, but don't provide the blanket security and powerful features of uBlock origin.

Fixing this one thing hugely swings the pendulum from "lean Android" to "likely Apple" for me. It turns the 6/10 product into a 7/10. And allowing sideloading would turn the decision into a no-brainer, as the iPad would suddenly turn into a 9/10.

dustyData ,

the superior stylus experience with the Apple Pencil

I laugh at you in S pen. Having tried both, Apple pencil feels like a knockoff S pen.

SuperSpruce ,

Interesting. I've never tried the S pen, and I thought reviews leaned towards the Apple Pencil. And every other stylus experience I've tried so far is subpar. I should give the S Pen a try.

dustyData ,

Unlike Apple the Samsung tablets come packaged with the pen and are designed with a special layer on the screen dedicated to sense the pen. Apple barely has two models of the pencil with the latest being from 2018. There's an S pen for every generation of galaxy tablets but most tablets and the flagship phones are compatible with the newest pens. The samsung software also has some unique features like the hover gestures that make it magical to use the S pen.

rab ,
@rab@lemmy.ca avatar

They don't care, it's more important to suck users into the apple ecosystem than it is to just sell devices

SuperSpruce ,

So being an iPad user using true Firefox is not as much in the Apple ecosystem as being an Android tablet user (who also uses true Firefox)? Apple is crazy.

EarMaster ,

Just think about it. Let's assume that 1% of users will do the same and choose another device on their next purchase. That means that the profit loss Apple has to expect is less than the profit loss for losing their app store monopoly. For Apple this is a somewhat simple business calculation and it shows how much more profit they earn from app store purchases than from hardware sales.

gianni ,

I'm all for this change, but hopefully it means Mozilla will put some more energy into Gecko to make it competitive with WebKit in speed and multimedia capability (P3 colors, HDR images, JPEG-XL, etc)

asdfasdfasdf ,

It perplexes me that people choose to use a platform which won't let even let them choose how a browser works.

habitualcynic , (edited )

For me, iOS works substantially better at my employer. At the end of the day, it’s better for some enterprise integration. I wish it was different, but this is probably true for many. EDIT: I’d choose Android if my employer supported it enough to do my job effectively. :(

rowdyrockets , (edited )

[Thread, post or comment was deleted by the author]

    •
    deranger ,

    I straight up don’t talk about Apple or Windows on lemmy, it’s toxic as fuck. Nice chilling effect with downvoting literally anything that’s more positive than “I hate it”

    rowdyrockets , (edited )

    [Thread, post or comment was deleted by the author]

    •
    deranger ,

    In general I have a great time here. I only visit Reddit for niche topics maybe once or twice a week. However, here’s some topics I just don’t comment on because the responses I see others get.

    joe_cool ,

    Downvotes on Lemmy do even less than on reddit. Some people use it as a general "disagree but too lazy to reply" button. You could just look up who voted on ActivityPub though, so votes aren't anonymous.

    darganon ,

    Lol, I have a Tesla and enjoy Google and all(most) of the their products. Lemmy is unhinged about these things.

    TurtledUp ,

    I found the opposite I love the way the work profile functions on Android. It's logically separated (even to the point you can have VPN setup for just work apps) and you can enable and disable all work apps from a quick settings tile as well as schedule it to turn on and off at certain times.

    habitualcynic ,

    Oh 100%, I look at it with envy when I see reviews lol. My work doesn’t have an MDM implementation that’s compatible with that on Android. I took some inspiration from it on my iOS focus modes but it’s not the same. The way my employer has it setup, the calendar and email only work through specific apps on Android instead of device intention like native calendar and email, which inhibits push and exchange. “The shitty boxer app didn’t notify me” isn’t a good enough excuse :/ … okay end of complaining.

    TurtledUp ,

    That sucks you guys can't get an mdm up and going but it's not free I don't believe so it makes sense for smaller companies.   I think there is a way to do a sort of homebrew work profile using Tasker or similar automation app to control it.

    theonyltruemupf ,

    Main problem is that Android sucks too. The mobile OS market is a burning dumpster fire controlled by two of the biggest companies in the world.
    My point is I use arch btw and I'd like to do so on my phone as well. (With it still being practical)

    asdfasdfasdf ,

    Android is far more free than iOS, and it's based on open source so pretty easy to remove all Google stuff if you care about it. But by default you can side load whatever you want.

    theonyltruemupf ,

    That's true and pretty cool and I will always choose Android over iOS, but it's still a bad system. I want a phone architecture where I can just slap an OS on there like it's a PC and upgrade to new versions until the hardware craps out. But I can't

    uthredii ,

    You can install alternative android distros on an android phone that will keep updating long after the manufacturer has stopped. For example lineage OS which supports lots of devices (but not all).

    There are also Linux distros targeted to mobile devices.

    You just need to pick a device that is supported when buying.

    uis ,
    @uis@lemmy.world avatar

    Gentoo can work on some phones. Maybe arch can too.

    ky56 ,

    Have you considered the PinePhone (Pro)?

    rottingleaf ,

    Well, there are separate cooler Japanese versions of some things. Why not this? Only then why Apple at all.

    dunestorm ,
    @dunestorm@lemmy.world avatar

    This only in the EU thing is going to bite them in the ass hard. You’re going to get App developers pretending to operate in the EU or moving there just to have more creative freedom.

    Users will also find ways of doing the exact same. You can’t have one rule for one group of people and different rules for everyone else.

    ADTJ ,

    They may eventually get dragged there kicking and screaming but will milk consumers in other markets for every penny they can before that happens

    riskable ,
    @riskable@programming.dev avatar

    You can’t have one rule for one group of people and different rules for everyone else.

    "In the name of the greatest smartphone that have ever graced this earth, we draw the line in the dust and toss the gauntlet before the feet of tyranny, and say separate rules now, separate rules tomorrow, separate rules forever." -Apple, probably

    And009 ,

    Sounds awfully lot like 'divide and conquer'. Where have I heard that before?

    riskable ,
    @riskable@programming.dev avatar

    It's my humorous manipulation of famous quote by George Wallace regarding segregation in the US. Here's the original:

    "In the name of the greatest people that have ever trod this earth, I draw the line in the dust and toss the gauntlet before the feet of tyranny, and I say segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever." -George Wallace, infamous racists prick

    You can read all about his descent into racist madness here:

    https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/wallace-quotes/#:~:text=In%20the%20name%20of%20the,segregation%20tomorrow%2C%20segregation%20forever.%22

    (It is quite interesting how he changed over time... Almost like regularly spending time with racists--who you view as close friends--can lead to absorbing racist views)

    Sensitivezombie ,

    Just a wild guess, but I think Apple is fully aware of this. They are intentionally keeping it separate to set a precedence that they will not bend over and let EU dictate and for the rest of the world to reap the benefit. Same with their decision to fine users for sideloading. They know it's a losing battle they are just trying to make it as difficult as possible.

    avidamoeba , (edited )
    @avidamoeba@lemmy.ca avatar

    Most developers won't pretend they operate in the EU because that would likely result in account loss. As for anyone actually moving there for this, I highly doubt it. Most developers who distribute on the App Store are looking for profit, not creativity. Trying to go around Apple for this sounds like risking those profits.

    Furthermore the European versions won't be available outside of Europe so if anyone wants to keep their existing non-European users, they'd have to maintain two versions. That's extra work and unless there's some significant profit unlocked by the European changes, the most likely scenario is that developers would stick to whatever's allowed worldwide. Which is likely Apple's goal - comply with the regulation, while making it sufficiently undesirable for developers to change anything.

    Fades ,

    What a rollercoaster, I was so excited until the last bit :(

    CriticalMiss ,

    How will that work? Firefox is gonna maintain two different builds?

    billiam0202 ,

    Three, technically:

    • Firefox for Android
    • Firefox for iOS EU
    • Firefox for iOS US
    baseless_discourse , (edited )

    fennce f-droid is also an official build.

    Edit: it is not... https://gitlab.com/relan/fennecbuild

    hamsterkill ,

    Not completely official, no. Mozilla may help with it, but since it doesn't carry the Firefox branding, and isn't built by Mozilla, it's not entirely official.

    d3Xt3r ,

    There's also Firefox Beta, Nightly and Focus.

    sunbeam60 ,

    Not at all the same. These are three outputs from the same build process and code base. Maintaining a build with WebKit and one with Mozilla’s own rendering engine is like running a different team.

    It’s almost as if Apple is making this difficult.

    d3Xt3r ,

    same build process and code base.

    It's not the same code base though. They're all different branches, and also differ in code (although not by much, but it still requires manual maintenance of each branch). I haven't seen the actual build process but it's likely to be completely separate CI/CD pipelines, so I wouldn't claim it to be the "same" build process either. Also, Focus uses a completely different UI with a different/cut-down set of features.

    Naturally I'm not saying that maintaining these branches amounts to the same level of effort as maintaining the iOS WebKit and Gecko branches, but it's not some non-trivial effort either.

    sunbeam60 ,

    I didn’t realise Focus was a unique feature set. My apologies. I maintain my original comment on Nightly and Beta - if they aren’t using (almost) the same CI/CD pipeline, doesn’t it sort of defeat the purpose of each of these builds being a maturation towards a stable build? I’ve certainly never deployed software with a “daily/beta/stable” branch/feature-flag structure that wasn’t attempting to replicate the build process, with a view to catching issues upstream/pre-stable.

    Tatters ,

    It doesn’t have to be separate branches - you can generate different versions of the software from the same code branch, e.g. using compiler/build time switches for those bits of the code that differ between the different target platforms. Then you would have a build pipeline per platform; even here the build pipeline can share a lot of common code, and just be parameterized for the specific platform.

    riskable ,
    @riskable@programming.dev avatar

    Lets not make this out to be like it's Kerberos (more complicated than rocket science)... Making available another, region-specific version of your app isn't difficult. It's just the developer equivalent of an extra one-time TPS report (you have to setup/modify some build scripts and make some additional tests).

    It's the equivalent of having builds for .rpm and .deb and then adding a .AppImage build. It shouldn't be that big a deal for the Mozilla Firefox team.

    In fact, I bet they're freaking excited at the prospect of being able to make a real build of Firefox for iOS.

    amir_s89 ,

    Maybe same, but those outside EU will have some functions/ featlrures deactivated as standard.

    Can that work?

    gencha ,

    Nobody will maintain any builds, because the restrictions are still ludicrous. Most people in the comments are missing the point entirely.

    CriticalMiss ,

    That’s what I thought. I’m just waiting for an official Mozilla reply.

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