Welcome to Incremental Social! Learn more about this project here!
Check out lemmyverse to find more communities to join from here!

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

While celebrating a billionaire getting their just desserts is always fun, not really sure that this is a reflection of the decency of the Vietnamese government.

AllonzeeLV OP ,

Since there's no rational hope of addressing the other 3k or so billionaire parasites on Earth without building a really big Titanic wreckage tour sub and making little paths of stock certificates leading to it like reese's pieces in ET, I'll take whatever incidental vicarious revenge against humanity's oppressors I can get.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

I mean, celebrate the revenge, for sure. Just don't mistake it for decency. Vietnam is about as corrupt as India.

AllonzeeLV OP , (edited )

We're no less corrupt in the US, merely more expensive.

Our cheats just hire lobbyists to make their corrupt practices legal, shout out to Citizens United, and/or hire enough lawyers to make the consequences meaningless, like fining a company that makes billions a year thousands for profitable criminal activity.

Our "solution" to corruption is simply to make it legal for the right price. Donald Trump should have lost his empire and gone to jail for his business practices long before he was a game show host, let alone POTUS, but he learned and inherited enough from daddy to understand how to wield American style corruption, and he's still free.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

We’re no less corrupt in the US, merely more expensive.

We're very corrupt in the US. That's not the same as being corrupt to the same degree. I... would encourage looking into the relative corruption of countries. We, in the US, are near the bottom of the the list as far as developed countries go (beaten out by only such luminaries as Italy and Greece), but we aren't even close to as bad as it can get. We're just more aware of our own corruption than of other countries. I mean, we are Americans. We're barely aware of the existence of other countries, much less their corruption.

HonoraryMancunian ,

I can't get behind a government giving the death penalty to anybody for any reason

Eheran ,

Or just those that are not on "the line"? Like Russians falling out of windows. What is the actual truth behind this?

theodewere ,
@theodewere@kbin.social avatar

the actual truth appears to be that she committed an incredible amount of really basic, egregious fraud

rockSlayer ,

What do you mean by that? The articles about this have been all over on lemmy for the last few days. She got away with ~$9 billion in financial crimes for over a decade, with total damages estimated at $12.5 billion. Her husband was also caught for embezzlement of billions and is receiving a 9 year prison sentence.

bahbah23 ,

Sounds like she must have gotten caught stealing from rich people for it to have been that much. You'll get in trouble for that anywhere. You may not get the death penalty but you may die in prison.

FfaerieOxide ,
@FfaerieOxide@kbin.social avatar

The death penalty is always wrong.
Murder is not a punishment and once you've stripped her of her ill-got gains there is no longer any reason to kill her.

ososalsosal ,
@ososalsosal@aussie.zone avatar

While I agree in principle I tend to think there are still unforgivable crimes and irredeemable people out there.

FfaerieOxide ,
@FfaerieOxide@kbin.social avatar

While I agree in principle I tend to think there are still unforgivable crimes and irredeemable people out there.

Then you don't agree.

I wasn't aware crime was about forgiveness.
I thought in-so-far as societies implemented systems of justice, their purpose was restitution and rehabilitiation.

No one gains anything from a person—irrespective their prior actions—being murdered and we all lose a bit of our soul each time a state execution is allowed to take place.

I really expected better from Vietnam, whose "quarantine at gunpoint" public health policies I heartily endorse.

Karyoplasma ,

If child predators get executed, I don't lose "a bit of my soul", I gain more confidence that the world is now a better place.

FfaerieOxide ,
@FfaerieOxide@kbin.social avatar

I gain more confidence that the world is now a better place.

Oh word? Did the horrific thing they did no longer happen?

CancerMancer ,

Child predators have recidivism rates of 10-35% depending on which studies you're reading. Each one of those assaults is a potentially life-altering trauma induced in a child. Exactly how many should someone be able to do before we consider they're not going to be rehabilitated?

qjkxbmwvz ,

A life in prison and state sanctioned execution are different, though.

It's also worth considering why these criminals are criminals. If they were, say, violently abused as a child themselves...does that matter? Functionally, it doesn't matter to the victim --- I get that. But should the state be in the business of executing such people?

CancerMancer ,

But should the state be in the business of executing such people?

Honestly I've always felt this was the strongest argument against a death penalty. That said the argument carries nearly the same weight for life imprisonment, and still some for the act of imprisonment at all. We continue to trust juries of fools to judge people to this day, but that is still unfortunately more palatable than giving the right to someone to unilaterally choose your jury.

I'm onboard with a culture of reform and education for convicts because it works, but I also recognize some people cannot be reformed and keeping them imprisoned is needlessly dangerous for many parties. There needs to be a line where we accept someone is too far gone.

Semjaza ,

Is that equivalent to 65% don't reoffend? Or am I misunderstanding the recidivism rate?

CancerMancer ,

Yes, which is why my question isn't just rhetorical. How many is too many? You could make a case for 1 (if you believe the crime is too heinous), or 2 (if you believe in second chances), or 3+ even. But where do you draw the line and accept someone isn't going to stop?

Semjaza ,

OK, so ignoring that not going to change doesn't mean the death penalty is valid (the very idea presupposes the existence of states and the idea that a power structure can put people to death), that using the upper limits of your statistics means that for every 1 (0.35) who would reoffend that is murdered, you've also murdered 2 (0.65) who would not.
So if you do want to go ahead on your executions, the number of reoffenses should be up at 3 or so as a minimum.

But there are better ways to deal with it, as executing people is bad for the people who have to do it, the families of the executed, and sometimes even the victims and families as they're robbed of a chance for closure and understanding.

FfaerieOxide ,
@FfaerieOxide@kbin.social avatar

Each one of those assaults is a potentially life-altering trauma induced in a child.

Don't tell me what being abused as a child does to someone, thanks.

Does killing the person who did it make the assault not have happened?

CancerMancer ,

It's not just about the assault that happened, it's also about the risk of considerable harm in the future. Killing someone for one act of sexual predation is going to be considered extreme by many but not all people. But what happens after the second or third times? How many is too many?

FfaerieOxide ,
@FfaerieOxide@kbin.social avatar

How many is too many?

A single state murder is too many. Full stop.

Add into that how you've just given child abusers incentive to murder their victims and scared children out of informing on a family member for which the death of whom they do not wish to be responsible.

But what kind of fucked up society can only stop anti-social behavior through murdering its perpetrators?

metaldream ,

Of course it doesn’t, that’s such a condescending question.

The obvious response is that the perpetrator has a 0% chance of reoffending if they’re executed and that does carry weight with a lot of people.

Karyoplasma ,

I'm not even going to dignify this response. Have a nice day

FfaerieOxide ,
@FfaerieOxide@kbin.social avatar

I’m not even going to dignify this response.

That's a response.

Have a nice day

Thank you. It'll indeed be much nicer without you advocating state murder in it. 🙂

Karyoplasma ,

I wish, one day I will be as cool as you.

FfaerieOxide ,
@FfaerieOxide@kbin.social avatar

I wish, one day I will be as cool as you.

Everybody does, I have faith in you. 😘

Step 1: Stop doing uncool things like advocating States murder people.

metaldream ,

They won’t repeat the horrific thing they did while dead, that’s for sure.

I’m against the death penalty but it’s not hard to see why some people support it.

FfaerieOxide ,
@FfaerieOxide@kbin.social avatar

I’m against the death penalty but

Shut the fuck up. If there's a "but" ever then no the fuck you are not.

They won’t repeat the horrific thing they did while dead

Did the original horrific thing not happen? Does murder ameliorate past suffering in any way?

Vengeance is not justice, it is sick.

qjkxbmwvz ,

And do you think these child predators had charming upbringings? Or perhaps they were filled with horrors and trauma?

Yeah, there are absolutely evil people out there, and if you think the state should execute them, that's your opinion. But to think that all heinous crimes come from a vacuum is naive.

Deceptichum ,
@Deceptichum@sh.itjust.works avatar

And if an innocent person gets executed for the crime?

Duke_Nukem_1990 ,

Huh. At least where I am from "Death penalty for child predators" is a common far-right talking point.

Karyoplasma ,

You've exposed me! I don't sympathize with child predators, so I must be a Nazi!

ososalsosal ,
@ososalsosal@aussie.zone avatar

then you don't agree

Allow me some cognitive dissonance because I really don't know what society should do about psychopaths, predators, or cases like those execs who put melamine into milk to spoof the protein metrics, leading to the horrible deaths of a large number of babies.

Holding them indefinitely is a useless drain on the state, killing them leads to the inevitability of innocent people dying.

FfaerieOxide ,
@FfaerieOxide@kbin.social avatar

Allow me some cognitive dissonance

Not if you use it to advocate state murder I won't.

killing them leads to the inevitability of innocent people dying.

Innocent people will always have the ability to die, no matter how many people your state murders.

Baku ,

Alright. I DON'T agree.

FfaerieOxide ,
@FfaerieOxide@kbin.social avatar

Alright. I DON’T agree.

You should; death as a post-hoc punishment is abhorrent and serves no one.

Baku ,

I still don't agree.

FfaerieOxide ,
@FfaerieOxide@kbin.social avatar

I still don’t agree.

I know, you're a terrible person.
We've established this.

Baku ,

I wouldn't go that far, but since about 90% of the comments you've ever made on Lemmy are just you arguing over inconsequential things with random people, I'd wager you are.

FfaerieOxide ,
@FfaerieOxide@kbin.social avatar

the comments you’ve ever made on Lemmy

What's Lemmy?

arguing over inconsequential things

I don't think people getting murdered by the state is "inconsequential", least of all for the murdered person.

Baku ,

What's Lemmy?

Alright, my bad, I wasn't looking at the instances. So I'll expand that to Lemmy and kbin.

I don't think people getting murdered by the state is "inconsequential"

None of what you're arguing about really achieves anything. Nobody has changed their opinion because you argued with them, and because of how much of a dick you're being, you've definitely killed the opportunity to have a proper discussion with people about it (which may have been able to convert more people to your side)

FfaerieOxide ,
@FfaerieOxide@kbin.social avatar

and because of how much of a dick you’re being, you’ve definitely killed the opportunity to have a proper discussion with people about it

Oh no, I'm being a dick about states murdering people.

Maybe if I put on a frilly dress and sipped tea with folks they wouldn't have such horrific opinions?

Baku ,

No need for that, maybe just coming to the realisation that some people have differing opinions to you and trying to change them isn't a great way to spend your weekend.

Anyways this is the last time I'll be replying to you otherwise I'd really just be a hypocrite. You'll eventually figure it out, whether or not you listen to me

FfaerieOxide ,
@FfaerieOxide@kbin.social avatar

some people have differing opinions

I'm well aware that people can be wrong, my dude.

States still should not murder people, regardless how many people are wrong about it.

cyborganism ,

The way these people affect so many lives negatively with their fraud is much worse than a person committing murder.

The literal misery they cause to so many people for their own benefit without a fucking iota of shame and their sociopathic behavior is enough to consider eliminating them from society.

FfaerieOxide ,
@FfaerieOxide@kbin.social avatar

The way these people affect so many lives negatively with their fraud is much worse than a person committing murder.

Irrespective how is two bad things better than one bad thing? I would think fewer bad things would be net better.

The literal misery they cause to so many people for their own benefit without a fucking iota of shame and their sociopathic behavior is enough to consider eliminating them from society.

You speak of "sociopathic behavior" while advocating state murder. 🤨

cyborganism ,

I know. It sounds fucked. But these people are a cancer on society. There's very little that can be done to reform these people. And the problem is that capitalism rewards this kind of behaviour.

These people currently are ruling the world. If they aren't the head of some large company, there the head of a government. Because of their large wealth, they have a huge influence on the policies. They're basically dictating the laws that are governing them. It's like playing Monopoly with your own made up rules.

You can't stop those people any other way. The French understood this. When the price of food was out of reach, heads started to roll. Literally. Nowadays the people can't be violent anymore. Heck, the mere act of peacefully protesting is met with police violence and oppression. How the fuck are we supposed to get the message across when those people have their own militia protecting them and their interests?

FfaerieOxide ,
@FfaerieOxide@kbin.social avatar

There’s very little that can be done to reform these people.

Nothing you have tried so far.

How the fuck are we supposed to get the message across when those people have their own militia protecting them and their interests?

Have you ever considered "Progaganda Of The Deed" to encompass modeling being better people than the opposition?

cyborganism ,

That's the problem. There's one side that's trying to play by the rules and be nice because they have empathy. Then there's the other side who lie, cheat, and break the rules for their own benefit without shame.

How the hell are you supposed to play the game and "be better" than the opposition, when the opposition is taking advantage of you?

There has to be clear and grave consequences to discourage them from abusing the system and the people. If it has to be the death penalty, then so be it.

I'm tired of our societies being run by a bunch of industry barons who own everything. Food barons, healthcare barons, banking barons, housing barons, you name it. The mega conglomerates that we can't escape from who are literally destroying this planet and leeching off of everybody with made up excuses about the state of the "economy". Having all the world's fortune in the hands of about 10 people. We can't stop this by playing nice and asking nicely. Not when they control governments with their financial influence or because they've become too big to fail. No. You build fucking guillotines and you execute the motherfuckers.

FfaerieOxide ,
@FfaerieOxide@kbin.social avatar

How the hell are you supposed to play the game and “be better” than the opposition, when the opposition is taking advantage of you?

You do that by not murdering them after you have taken power and over the means of production.

Having all the world’s fortune in the hands of about 10 people. We can’t stop this by playing nice and asking nicely.

Alright so you've seized all the money in the world and taken over all the land and machinery that enables production through the application of labor via militant witholding of the same. You and your comrades have all the guns.

...why at that point do you need to use those guns to murder people who are no longer holding murderous control over those common resources?

I refuse to acquiesce to or defend a system of belief that requires people die.

Once you win, you don't kill or you never had moral authority to employ violence in pursuit of winning in the first place.

stebo02 ,
@stebo02@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

fraud is much worse than a person committing murder

you may be right but that's still no reason to murder them

faintwhenfree ,

Up vote for use of iota correctly

Conyak ,

I hear you but if I’m honest, and tomorrow America announced it was going to execute every billionaire, I’m not going to put up too much of a protest.

FfaerieOxide ,
@FfaerieOxide@kbin.social avatar

Take the money, sure. Then they're no longer billionaires and there's no need to kill them.

Deceptichum ,
@Deceptichum@sh.itjust.works avatar

In other words, you don’t murder disarmed prisoners of war.

During class war they are the enemy and deserve what comes to them. If taken alive and their weapon of war removed, they don’t need to be dealt with the same way.

Once they are no longer a threat you can work on rehabilitation and restitution.

AlecSadler ,

First off, I agree with you.

But...second...I struggle with the rehabilitation bit. Some people cannot be rehabilitated. It is a hard truth I have learned, coupled with pain and regret, many times in my life. I'm just curious what you think the course of action should be at that point?

I'm not suggesting death/murder, but I do struggle with the idea that if they're miserable, and the people around them are made miserable, and the people trying to help them are made miserable...what do you do?

Worx ,

You do everything you can for them (whilst making sure they're not a danger to other people), give the caretakers / wardens plenty of time off, and you give them the option for assisted suicide. In my ideal world, everyone would have the option for assisted suicide though

FfaerieOxide ,
@FfaerieOxide@kbin.social avatar

Some people cannot be rehabilitated.

You can't know that. You only have evidence for people's inability to've been rehabilitated so far.

I’m just curious what you think the course of action should be at that point?

Not murder.

if they’re miserable, and the people around them are made miserable, and the people trying to help them are made miserable…what do you do?

...drugs?

state_electrician ,

I disagree. I don't subscribe to a world view where every life is sacred. Society has a right to protect itself from persons that will always endanger other people and that includes killing them. However, it has been quite clear that we cannot guarantee that no innocent people are killed. And that's why I'm OK with the death penalty only in principle, not in practice.

FfaerieOxide ,
@FfaerieOxide@kbin.social avatar

persons that will always endanger other people and that includes killing them.

You cannot know that, and if you have the ability to strap someone down and end their life, you have no need to do so since you clearly have complete control over their person.

I’m OK with the death penalty only in principle

You shouldn't be. States qua arbiters of justice should not intentionally kill people under their control.

melpomenesclevage ,

you don't keep that control over billionaires.their money has too much loyalty.

so they need to be killed. I do agree that the state shouldn't be making the decision, but Vietnam is weird and still at least dresses up as communist.

FfaerieOxide ,
@FfaerieOxide@kbin.social avatar

you don’t keep that control over billionaires.their money has too much loyalty.

Once you take the money they aren't billionaires anymore.

metaldream ,

Taking their money away isn’t enough. These billionaires often have deep connections to people who could easily help them regain their wealth and power. I’m not sure what the answer is but taking the money won’t solve the problem in every case.

FfaerieOxide ,
@FfaerieOxide@kbin.social avatar

These billionaires often have deep connections to people who could easily help them regain their wealth and power.

So take their money too.

melpomenesclevage ,

but money is just an idea; easier to put a bullet in them than rewrite the entire social perception of them.

FfaerieOxide ,
@FfaerieOxide@kbin.social avatar

It's easier to put bullets in things than to do alot of things, what's your point?

It's easier to shoot someone than to change your sheets but it doesn't make your bed smell less of piss.

melpomenesclevage ,

it takes seconds, other way takes years, and its not worth risking it getting away. it's not human anymore, and its a danger to humans, so if its not down for trying to be human again; kill it. don't waste the effort when there are living people who need help.

FfaerieOxide ,
@FfaerieOxide@kbin.social avatar

it takes seconds, other way takes years,

And you end up with dirty sheets. No matter how fast it is it doesn't address your problem.

Don't call people "it" my dude.
Irrespective how monstrous a person acts they're still a human and you can't distance yourself and your capacity to engage in the same monsterousness they did by dehumanizing them.

melpomenesclevage ,

so I dont care about biology-on a moral level; obviously its cool and I need to think about it at lunch- a life is precious for actual reasons

and being wealthy diminishes just about all of those reasons.scientifically, there are studies that prove it. the wealthy are less intelligent less logic less compassionate less connected to the world. they dehumanize, in the terms that matter to me, themselves.

I'm not suggesting you should get the wall the moment your income slips into six figures, but in extreme cases, where all humanity has fled, theres nothing worth keeping there. its an it. no moral wrong in killing it, at least no more than a rat.

now, I'm not going to go around smashing rats in a hydraulic press for fun. that's sick. but I'm only going to spend so much time doing catch and release in my pantry before I try poison or snapping their necks, because I have other fucking shit to do with my life, and I dont consider the rat worth that much fucking time.

biionaires get coddled from every direction. if nurturing warm fuzzy feelings were going to work, they would have by now, so I'm in favor of actually fixing the problem. that means a guillotine.

FfaerieOxide ,
@FfaerieOxide@kbin.social avatar

and being wealthy diminishes just about all of those reasons.scientifically, there are studies that prove it. the wealthy are less intelligent less logic less compassionate less connected to the world.

So take their money.

they dehumanize, in the terms that matter to me, themselves.

You dehumanize yourself when you dehumanize others.

I’m in favor of actually fixing the problem. that means a guillotine.

How did that work out for Robespierre?

melpomenesclevage ,

take their money

money isn't money though.

money us the concept of deserving and promise of agency, which has been pressed so deep into them that they are stained with it, to any remaining capitalist loyalists or other idiots.

you can take their money, but that isn't really taking their money. youd need to take their faces, their names, their fingerprints, And the memories of all their secret stashes or things they could use to authenticate to associates. which seems way more fucked than just killing them.

dehumanize yourself

in what ways? ive been through an amount of shit, already skewed pretty far from default. might not be in a way that matters to me. hell, if you could lower my very human chance of breast cancer, I might even be willing to do something I find unpleasant.

generally I agree, but you need to be more specific here. maybe if I salt half as many people arguing half as much for the dignity and humanity of the unhoused and laboring classes, it would be easier to rake this shit seriously, but I'm not going to devote a second more than necessary to dealing with billionaires, and in a revolution, that means a bullet.

Robespierre

that fucker's problem was trying to autocratically lead a movement of popular power while keeping the people infantilized. nothing wrong with killing the aristocracy.

FfaerieOxide ,
@FfaerieOxide@kbin.social avatar

money isn’t money though.

Pretty sure money is money, and you can take it.

in what ways?

It makes you the type of person who can dismiss the humanity of other humans as "other" and we know what kind of atrocities that leads to.

half as many people arguing half as much for the dignity and humanity of the unhoused and laboring classes

What about universal human dignity applying universally takes away the right of dignity from the unhoused?

Human dignity isn't a zero-sum game. That's billionaire thinking.

Take billionaires' assets, not their lives (post-fact).

melpomenesclevage , (edited )

if money were money, the stock market wouldn't exist.

if money were money, Donald trump would be a beggar in a gutter.

if money were money, the wealthy would pay taxes.

if money were money, you could do a revolution with the power of gold.

its not, he's not, they dont, and you can't.

universal human dignity

why? based on what? at what point(s) does it start applying? at what point(s) does it stop?

what if I go into a coma. total vegetative state.

what if, in that vegetative state, my brain starts to physically die, which parts would I need still biologically functioning (though no longer effectively being a brain) to qualify?

if I take a shit, there are human cells in that. does it deserve dignity?

if I die, that's human. does it deserve less dignity if it gets burned, or when the blood is switched out for embalming fluid?

what about another animal just as intelligent and just as capable of feeling as us, maybe more? say an elephant, a whale, a cuttlefish?

what about a hypothetical uploaded mind? or a from-scratch agi; what traits would it have to have to acquire various degrees of human dignity, and not just be a script/dataset for me to copy+paste+delete at my whim?

if you think about it, and make it more than some mystical magical woowoo bullshit, some things are going to have at least a talon/tentacle/hoof in that aren't 'human' and some things are going to be out that appear very much 'human', and maybe even were in the past.

most if my criteria for giving a shit are things you are scientifically proven to lose with wealth. are they recoverable? maybe, in the way you can unmix a drink. and in an ideal world, maybe we should. we dont live in an ideal world. the labor cost and risk to others whose humanity is at risk (from dying) takes precedence; its a triage thing.

and if it's happening; I might as well enjoy it. revenge can feel nice, even if its usually stupid and counterproductive.

FfaerieOxide ,
@FfaerieOxide@kbin.social avatar

based on what?

Being Human

at what point(s) does it start applying?

First breath; fetuses aren't people

at what point(s) does it stop?

It doesn't.

what about a hypothetical uploaded mind?

Getting a bit off topic your advocacy of murdering people after their wealth has been seized

in an ideal world, maybe we should.

Why the hell advocate violence if not to effect ideals?

melpomenesclevage ,

being human

which is what?

first breath

why?

it doesn't

okay so when I die where does that dignity go? my writings? my body, my soul?

because your version of this idea sounds anawful lot like a soul.

getting a bit off topic

no I'm not, you just can't answer because you haven't thought out your ideas. I don't even think they're inherently bad, I think youre just wearing them like an aesthetic.

FfaerieOxide ,
@FfaerieOxide@kbin.social avatar

being human
which is what?

A supernatural comedy drama on BBC3

why?

What are you, a toddler? You asked for a cutoff and I gave you one. If you didn't want an answer, don't ask.

okay so when I die where does that dignity go? my writings? my body, my soul?
because your version of this idea sounds anawful lot like a soul.

What's your point? I never mentioned "a soul" as it relates to human dignity but if even you seem to be using it as equivalent to or allegory for writings so what if it does sound like that?

Like you seem to be trying to sculpt my position to some preconceived notion you have of organized faith so you can then attack that when I have never mentioned religion.

I just said you shouldn't murder people once you've already seized "their" assets.

melpomenesclevage ,

see I don't respect the BBC.

what makes that cutoff meaningful? seems arbitrary. explain why its not?

is my corpse deserving of dignity? the computer program? the whale?

I'm saying you have essentialized 'human' and designated it special, without any explanation (or appreciation) of why it's special or cool. it sounds an awful lot like 'the thing I am is special because I'm one'. which sounds pretty Fucking religious to me.

so explain. feel free to get weird with it.

I'm also saying you can't sieze all their assets. money isn't just money, and its not the only thing that's money.

FfaerieOxide ,
@FfaerieOxide@kbin.social avatar

see I don’t respect the BBC.

You shouldn't.

what makes that cutoff meaningful?

Fetuses don't have rights.

I’m also saying you can’t sieze all their assets. money isn’t just money, and its not the only thing that’s money.

What the heck are you talking about? Find the things which can be exchanged for goods and services and that those things away. Cart off shiny rocks. 0 out electronic ledgers

Billionaire handshakes are meaningless. If you've seized all the food and means of production what does it matter if gardeners try to play Parker Bros. with one another?

melpomenesclevage ,

the BBC

so sane page then.

...??

see I notice you ignored the hard part of what I have to say, which tells me you can't really describe this thing you respect or why you respect it.

money is real and not just a fantasy bullshit excuse

okay see this is just super unrealistic.

yeah sure after its already established for a while and money is a historical relic like skull calipers you can ignore them. that takes a while, and they're threats until then.

state_electrician ,

This is a discussion about personal morals. Some people think it's OK to execute some criminals, others are completely opposed to that idea. There is no objective right or wrong here.

For you your arguments might be compelling, but they don't convince me. I can have complete control over someone and still decide to kill them because I don't want to bother with locking them up, for example. And who says a society should not kill? That's not even an argument, just an opinion.

FfaerieOxide ,
@FfaerieOxide@kbin.social avatar

There is no objective right or wrong here.

No, the state killing people is objectively wrong.

PlainSimpleGarak ,

Fucking lol. I love Lemmy. I've never seen such an obscure group of people speak in absolutes so consistently. Puts reddit to shame.

"I WILL DECIDE WHAT IS RIGHT OR WRONG"

"I WILL DECIDE WHAT IS GOOD OR EVIL"

FfaerieOxide ,
@FfaerieOxide@kbin.social avatar

“I WILL DECIDE WHAT IS RIGHT OR WRONG”

I don't decide. The state murdering people is wrong. I just have the moral wherewithal to recognize the fact.

Which isn't hard because it's objectively true.

Hope this helps.

PlainSimpleGarak ,

Ok, I'll play along for a bit.

The state murdering people is wrong.

Prove it is wrong. Use facts and data to prove capital punishment is wrong.

FfaerieOxide ,
@FfaerieOxide@kbin.social avatar

Steven-Chowder-at-a-card-table over here.

I'm not gonna "debate me!" somebody who think murder is cool and good; it isn't.

PlainSimpleGarak ,

I don't know who that is. Sorry.

Because you can't. Because it's completely subjective. You've got nothing. Just whiny emotions.

FfaerieOxide ,
@FfaerieOxide@kbin.social avatar

"DEBBBBAAAATE MEEEEEEE!"

PlainSimpleGarak ,

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

FfaerieOxide ,
@FfaerieOxide@kbin.social avatar

You good, mate? Do you need a friend or someone to talk to?

PlainSimpleGarak ,

Won't you be my neighbor?

melpomenesclevage ,

the death penalty is always wrong, billionaires should die in unpredictable extrajudicial ways. like aneurisms, pianos, etc.

but its something.

alsaaas Mod , (edited )

I'm sure all those Vietnamese workers love walking past statues of Ho Chi Minh and liberationist/progressive/commie monuments on their way to work for multi-national companies or when speculating on the Ho Chi Minh stock exchange

It's just social democracy at this point tbh
Tho don't get me wrong, this one is not entirely on the CPV (even though the party bureaucracy plays a huge part in this), but simply losing virtually all networks of solidarity to other socialists contries (especially with China being on the capitalist road)

antidote101 ,

Says someone from a high horse in a wealthy neo-colonial Capitalists country that's allied with various genocidal regimes.

alsaaas Mod , (edited )

yes that is smth I am also critically aware of and highly condemn, does not mean that I'm blind to revisionism or the fact that a lot of it is caused by said (neo-)colonialism/imperialism

just fyi: your comment kind of has "but you posted that from your iphone"-vibes tbh

antidote101 ,

What are you saying is a product of revisionism?

antidote101 ,

Hey, I asked a simple question.

RiikkaTheIcePrincess ,
@RiikkaTheIcePrincess@pawb.social avatar

On one hand, you have to appreciate a little win here or there. Not often they see consequences.

In the other hand, you should probably have a beer or a nice, refreshing glass of fruit juice or something. Whatever you like, you know? Treat yourself, it's a special occasion!

antidote101 ,

I mean, Vietnam is a Socialist Oriented Market Economy.

86% of Vietnamese people own their own homes, 70% are farmers because the government will allocate farm land to anyone who proves they can raise crops.

PyroNeurosis ,

Is that 70% of total or 70% of the homeowners?

antidote101 ,

70% of the rural population apparently:

https://www.google.com/search?q=70%25+of+veitname+are+farmers&oe=utf-8

aibler ,

Pretty impressive stats you got there, considering that 27.2% of Vietnamese people are under 18 years old.

Source

ChicoSuave ,

Such a young age to own a home!

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

Damn, and I can't even get one at 30.

NaibofTabr ,

And remember kids, 73% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

Gotta serve those numbers with some sauce

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-h96Y-Oc-dKM/Tx_t9yStkZI/AAAAAAAAEO4/aGT9DUhxTtk/s1600/Number+Soup.jpg

antidote101 ,

Fairly easy to find looks like home ownership rose to 88.1%

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_home_ownership_rate

The 70% farming statistics is quite wide spread;

https://www.google.com/search?q=70%25+of+veitname+are+farmers&oe=utf-8

NaibofTabr , (edited )

I appreciate that you came back with it, but the point is more that you should include sources in the first place. Don't expect other people who read your comment to go looking for information to back up your statistics, and don't expect them to accept it just because you said it.

Also, I'll point out that this:

About 70 per cent of Vietnamese people live in rural areas and have livelihoods dependent on agriculture.

Doesn't necessarily mean that all 70% are farmers. For instance if I manufacture farming tools, or sell grain silos or fertilizer or w/e, my livelihood is dependent on agriculture too.

antidote101 , (edited )

Fuck off wanker it's a memes page and I'm allowed to mention relatively benign and unemportant stats in passing off the top of my head if I want to.

You don't get to dictate whether I choose to use my ancient phone that takes lots of time to look stuff up because it's a decade old to look stuff up and include links you fat and lazy western prick.

You want to go fact check for yourself it's a relatively easy thing you could easily do, but you don't get to police or moralize what I do with my down time you fucking internet cop blow hard wanker.

You want to so some serious fact checking of politics why don't you go do it where it counts for the left: on mainstream rightwing sites like reddit.

Go to the Jordan Peterson sub on reddit and do it (there's a fucking openly Nazi thread for you to check out there), go to the PCMmemes subreddit go to the TIKHistory page, and go demand sources of actual right wing Nazis, don't try to tell me a how to spend my down time as a lefty trying to enjoy some memes because you like the thought of yourself in a blue uniform with big black boots.

I actually do those things whilst you spend your days safely moralizing to a political leftist randomly mentioning harmless facts about a Social Democracy then pretending like you're fucking doing good or was part of some important debate on a difficult topic.

You and people who make such complaints internally in spaces like this should go out an be able to research and get the stats yourself... And you should go fact check and play internet cop where it counts and is actually difficult in the right wing spaces online where we actually need help moralizing to the literal Nazis building up there (https://www.reddit.com/r/JordanPeterson/comments/1c7cxe4/why_do_journalistic_and_academic_publications/)

Oh no, Vietnam has a slightly different stat that is expressed differently on different websites, you only know that because I told you (https://lemmy.world/comment/9497762), you lazy shit pompous internet cop wanna be wanker. Sitting and complaining in your safe space because you're too lazy to do the basics for yourself.

antidote101 ,

You're out of your element donnie and it's a benign fact. What do you think someone's going to go accidentally set up a south east asian Socialist Oriented Market Economy and find out you'd need some other policy to get a 70% farming rate.

That's what you're policing in a world and time period where there's actually rightwing places and subreddits you could be using your "shoulding" internet cop powers on. Geezuz, oh no, you almost had to think for yourself for a second there. Big deal.

A benign stat, mentioned in a leftwing reddit alternative, quick call billy club jones there's someone to should to death with demands they include links for you, you absolutely lazy baby playing cop in your safe space.

NaibofTabr ,

you absolutely lazy baby

I'm not the one having a temper tantrum right now.

antidote101 ,

Go fact check the right where the actual misinformation is, rather than acting all smug and superior in a way that's completely undeserved.

NaibofTabr ,

And what exactly is "smug" about pointing out that you should source your information?

antidote101 , (edited )

The word SHOULD is absolutely always the imposition of an external morality. that YOU subjectively believe I should do something doesn't make your moral opinion objective or applicable to me. So go should someone else to death.

But you also did the whole "I'm just a fun google guy reminding you! And I had enough time to get this picture of soup! But not enough to go do my own research!"

If you want a source ASK for one like we're equal adults in a shared space, don't come along and act like you're everyone's parent or the local cop and demand people work for you with your "should" morality. You lost case.

If you WANT to find the information yourself, you SHOULD go find it for your fucking self. Not do some friendly fire cop thing posing as some kind of thought leader/monitor or groupen fuhrer/commander then shooting into its a debate or like this is a space where there's a spread of misinformation or like that's what was happening.

So yeah, take your "should" morality and shove it up your over inflated sense of moral importance. Some of us are currently just trying to relax here, and aren't on duty.

You want to play that game go do it where it's important and needed: in mainstream right wing spaces that have Trumpist Libertarian Nazis in them, as I linked earlier. Don't try to start petty shit at random. Direct your intentions where they become: among the uncritical rightwing who are the actual threat.

That's where I do it, that's where you should do it, but P.S they don't like the shoulding parental approache either. It's a bad mode to approach most adults with.

Mango ,

That's actually pretty awesome IMO.

Cue 'that guy' telling me how bad Vietnam is.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

Vietnam is actually really good, as far as middle-income countries without functional democracy go.

But a high proportion of the workforce engaged in agriculture is not a good thing. Though I don't think that 70% number is correct regardless. I think it's considerably lower (which is better for Vietnam).

Mango ,

Everyone should at least have a garden of their own and the path to that is in home ownership being available to everyone.

vk6flab ,
@vk6flab@lemmy.radio avatar

According to my quick Google search, there are about 100 million people in Vietnam. The average wage is $150 per month. $12.5B shared among each person is $125.

Why not make her pay that amount instead of a death sentence?

AlligatorBlizzard ,

That's actually what their "death penalty" is trying to do. Apparently most of the money she stole is in overseas bank accounts and relies on her taking action to actually give it back. She has appeals and if she paid up the appeals will probably back down from the death penalty.

FfaerieOxide ,
@FfaerieOxide@kbin.social avatar

Well then. Murdering someone as ex-post "punishment" for past actions remains abhorrent, but holding a gun to her head until she gives the money back is cool and good.

There is a difference between threatening violence as a deterrent against currently engaged in harms a person has the ability to cease and claiming moral authority to end a person's life due to things they have no control over.

There's distinction between "Put down the box or we'll shoot you." and "Having touched the box in the past, you now need to die regardless."

Still don't fuck with "The death penalty" as a framework for the threat, however.

daltotron ,

good intel, probably woulda been better included in the meme, though.

dutchkimble ,

I'm guessing they take the money too

endhits ,

¿Porque no los dos?

DigitalTraveler42 ,

Wake me up when Trump sees even just a shred of accountability, or Musk, or Bezos, or ....

TropicalDingdong ,

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/65a7822e-983a-4ff1-83a1-3825a70d84d8.png

Semjaza , (edited )

Interesting if you read about it, while many were found guilty I think only a woman is being sentences to death while many men are just getting a decade in prison for their involvement in it.

If she was the ringleader, sure... I guess (not that it makes the state's murdering of folks alright). But odd that she gets death while all the men don't even get 20 in jail.

melpomenesclevage ,

look, could it be better? yes. is it nothing? no.

Semjaza ,

Or is it the state just protecting and strengthening itself while using language to pretend it is on the side of the people?

The state will never execute, or legislate, our way to a better society.

melpomenesclevage ,

youre not wrong, but sometimes they kill a billionaire to look good, and that doesn't take us to a worse society.

like how the USSR drastically raised standards of living for the working class in the american empire just by existing. they didn't mean to. they didn't care. it was just a side effect of their dick waving.

Semjaza ,

Only the heartland.

And indirectly.

Much as it also lowered the standard of living across much of Africa and Central Asia due to the proxy wars and coups.

Plus normalising executions does make the world worse.

melpomenesclevage ,

I'm not saying its generally good. I'm saying the bad guys are killing each other, hooray!

I'd much rather it happened to it without warning, just an RPG to its helicopter or some hero with a knife out of an alley, I feel like the effect of that would be better, but this isn't a bad thing.

Semjaza ,

Edit: I'm being harsh, you're just having fun. Internet misses tone of voice, so it's easy to be at off wires, I'm being too nitpick and I'd probably agree if we spoke face to face. Sorry for being an online argumentative berk. Enjoy your day.

Original: Bad guys? 🤨
Even Thatcher and Reagan had families.

Always remember: the means are the ends.

melpomenesclevage ,

in my experience, monsters having families should not be a point of sympathy.

they dont tend to treat us well. we're usually better off without.

CliveRosfield ,

“We” isn’t this the case of other billionaires getting mad at one billionaire?

DragonTypeWyvern ,

Maybe we can trigger a feeding frenzy...

hOrni ,

What will the method of execution be? A guillotine seems fitting.

melpomenesclevage ,

trip to a coal mine would also be classic.

mihor ,

Anything that works, really.

asteriskeverything ,

Since when is it leftist to support the death penalty, let alone take glee in it. This is like the boomer FB shit

AllonzeeLV OP , (edited )

I'm against the death penalty in general, but I also acknowledge that in terms of tangible damage to humanity, any billionaire walking the Earth makes any serial killer who has ever walked the Earth seem positively quaint by scale.

I also recognize that we are living under class occupation. The owner class handily won the class war by convincing most of the developed world not to fight it half a century ago.

The peasants don't have the luxury of taking prisoners. We are the losers of a war, in spite of the fact that many have come to worship their occupying oppressors.

Keeping the most destructive humans locked away and well fed until they die of natural causes is a peacetime luxury for those in charge, and unless you're holding a reprehensible amount of capital, that isn't us. You might believe we are in peacetime, but if we refuse to stop them, and it looks that way, they will force our shared, communal habitat to stop us all through their insatiable, sociopathic avarice.

We love to think we're not, but we're still subjects wholly dependant on this world, even the owners activily attacking us and it simultaneously.

melpomenesclevage ,

well fucking said.

daltotron ,

The peasants don’t have the luxury of taking prisoners.

I mean, why not? POWs have their own self-evident advantages, as we've seen taking place in palestine right now. Hostages are a pretty good thing to have if you want to create a long term negotiating strategy with other people.

But also, if you get rid of the billioinaire's billions, then you get rid of the billionaire. Now you just have a 'naire. Maybe a thousandaire, or something. Like, all the rich people that fled from cuba to florida didn't really end up doing a whole lot with their lives except being mad and super bitter about the fact that they weren't able to keep participating in a fascist government that oppressed the people. Most of them were petite bourgeois anyways. It's the ones that refused to leave that you end up murdering by way of this being the only thing that can force them to leave.

None of that is really similar to this situation at all, even, this is just an independent government killing someone that realistically could have no recourse if they were just completely stripped of their money and sent off to go fuck around in some other country. It's also, to me, kind of an illustration of the divide that you conceive of prison as a "way to keep the most destructive humans locked away and well fed until they die of natural causes". There's, ideally, a greater purpose to prison beyond that. You're justifying this by conceiving of this as like, a "war", an extreme war, a life or death war, oooh it's a war, wartime wartime wartime, but then, the police do the same thing when they justify shooting some guy on the street.

I dunno, this strikes me as a lot of nice sounding guilt-assuaging talk, as good rhetoric, but you haven't really given me any logical argumentation to chew on here, as to why this would be good or why this had to be done, really.

AllonzeeLV OP ,

I mean, why not?

Because with the apparent exception of Vietnam, billionaires run the show in the society they live in. They use their capital, which is just an expression of power, to change laws, buy courts, shift responsibility to their corporate entities that receive a cute lil meaningless fine that costs less than the profit of the crime instead of prison time, and here in the US they even literally OWN and PROFIT off many of our prisons. That's the primary reason billionaires shouldn't exist, because it's close to impossible to put a check on such insane levels of power, which again, at those quantities, is what capital becomes, raw power. You can't have a functioning representative democracy where people can grow so wealthy that their power over society extends beyond their single vote.

Most of the peasants in the world are subject to their respective judicial systems and prison systems largely configured to protect PROPERTY rights over human rights by design of those they work for, and guess who that is?

There are beautiful exceptions, the Nordic nations come to mind, but sadly my country, the US, has been spreading its greed disease for decades. We toppled south American rigimes daring to make something better to keep their markets open for our capitalists to rape using our military industrial complex, and we've been converting Europe with our greed disease a little at a time(YOU can live larger than you've ever dreamed, foreign legislator, just betray your countrymen for our profit!), the UK has fallen to it, the French are fighting it but losing, etc.

kaffiene ,

The French revolution shows that the guilotines don't necessarily stop when the aristocrats are all dead. I'm not enthusiastic about mob justice

Drewelite ,

Yeah, I know a lot of Republicans that claim the left is only on their "high horse" when it suits them. I still don't believe that, but this thread really helps me understand where they got this notion of duplicity. Not a good look. SMH

kaffiene ,

I 100 % oppose the existence of Billionaires but not murdering people for being rich. History is littered with the monstrous actions of mobs thinking they were slaying a beast. We should always be wary of simplistic, violent final solutions

melpomenesclevage ,

billionaires aren't people. their existence requires a river of blood, and they all deserve death, regardless of the states opinion.

I think its good to remind them they can be killed. I think they forget.

absentbird ,

Is someone with $900 million a person without a river of blood to their name?

melpomenesclevage ,

probably not. but let's try to be real careful about killing innocent people here

whoisearth ,
@whoisearth@lemmy.ca avatar

Up to $999,999,999.99 you're in the clear!

Drewelite ,

Got a penny in my left hand and a knife in my right.

BallsandBayonets ,

The idea (or my opinion at least) is we start at the top, working our way down the high score list. After the first few, hopefully the rest come to their senses and voluntarily stop being scum.

Drewelite , (edited )

People are always looking up, so they think about themselves as the little guy. Meanwhile people with smart phones and designer clothes are wading through a river of blood themselves, but they don't look down, so they don't see it. Reality is, if you live in America or Europe there's a good chance you're in the top 10% of global wealth. So when I hear this sentiment that we should start chopping from the top, I always notice how they think the chopping should stop right before it gets to their neck. Oh and look who that would leave on top... Interesting.

BallsandBayonets ,

Fun sentiment but there's no way to exist without participating in capitalism. My smart phone may be made with slave labor but it's not like there are alternatives. Even if there were they'd be unaffordable.

If you can't see the massive difference between a handful of billionaires causing the suffering in the world to become richer, and the hundreds of millions of people who are just participating in capitalism because there's no other choice, then there's no point in talking to you.

Drewelite ,

I can absolutely see the difference, just like the Vietnamese factory workers can see the difference between them and you claiming you have to buy an iPhone. In a billionaire's world, what they're doing is the norm. Do I think they have a responsibility to wake up and smell their bullshit? Absolutely.Their actions hurt many people and it's inexcusable. But doesn't that ring a little hollow if I'm not willing to do the same?

mojo_raisin ,

The term "leftist" is too broad and "death penalty" too loosely defined.

Auth-leftists definitely support the death penalty, as in a powerful state should have authority to kill.

Anarchists don't think there should be a state therefore there is no body authorized to kill. If someone must die, it would be at the hands of an individual or an ad-hoc grouping and be called "self-defense".

Thinking things can change without the 0.1% being killed at all is a liberal idea.

Cochise ,

Since you can't make a revolution with white gloves.

Wogi ,

I'm against the death penalty on the grounds that I don't want the government to have the authority to kill because they keep fucking it up. Either they get the wrong person or botch the execution.

There's no question that a person is a billionaire.

daltotron ,

People are extremely bitter that rich people exist, and openly would call for their deaths, regardless of however much their lives would actually improve, were they to die, or however much their oppression might continue under a more conventional arrangement, or a less, sort of, offensive level of wealth inequality. People do find it offensive, basically, they find it ostentatious, and what's more commonly called for, to be put to death, than ostentatiousness? Than the offense of sensibilities?

I dunno. You get a lot of hard talk from supposed leftists who understand nothing of the kind of core principles at play, but none of them will realistically do anything, they're just floating by and passively regurgitating whatever they consume in the spectacle. They lack the empathy to commit real violence or change, I think.

half_built_pyramids ,

They lack the empathy to commit real violence

The poor aren't strong enough to kill. That's why I have to. New Batman villain was just created.

daltotron ,

I think that's just bane

half_built_pyramids ,

bane and league of shadows in the movie are more return to monkey than this new villain.

This new villain just wants to kill rich people, and Bruce happens to fall into the crossfire.

I assume comic book bane just loves green steroids or something.

sibannac ,

It always stops at the death of the rich. The money they have doesn't magically go into the public coffers to be distributed for the benefit of those who need it. It's all just grievance and schadenfreude rather than a way to change up the structure of power.

emergencyfood ,

1789

It is perfectly reasonable to oppose the death penalty, but the foundational event of the modern left movement was people chopping off a king's head.

linuxdweeb ,

This is like the boomer FB shit

Welcome to Lemmy!

JokeDeity ,

You can put me in whatever category you like. I still want to see the 1% hang.

Adalast ,

I have neither the emotional nor mental bandwidth to read up on this, too stressed being poor. Does anything say what is happening to the money?

melpomenesclevage ,

it doesn't have the money anymore, and that's why its being given justice.

thank you Vietnam, score one for the tankies. I mean, it took a while, and they still have billionaires, but its not nothing, so good on em if they follow through.

llama ,
@llama@midwest.social avatar

Also how does it get to 12.5 billion before people do something? Had they intervened with something less severe at 1 billion then there would still be 11.5 billion and a life not lost.

John_McMurray ,

This is a communist country and a show trial for someone fell out of favor, not am actual fraud case

  • All
  • Subscribed
  • Moderated
  • Favorites
  • •
  • incremental_games
  • leftymemes@lemmy.dbzer0.com
  • meta
  • All magazines
    •