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werefreeatlast ,

Time to standardize connectors, control panels, battery sizes, motors etc.

filister ,

The title is misleading, because nothing stops ICE car manufacturers from adopting the same unicast build bodies of those cars, and then EV will still be more expensive to make but with similar repair and lower maintenance cost.

But I really hope that common sense will prevail, even though I am doubtful.

postnataldrip ,

I wonder if this kind of thing might make conversions into older cars more viable. If the body and the million computers etc will cost heaps to fix in a newish EV, that might mean an increased supply of electric drivetrains at the wreckers. They're not exactly a drop-in proposition but having the parts available has to be a good start.

FluffyPotato ,

Unfortunately used EVs are still decades away from being viable since after 10 years you hit the point you most likely start needing to replace the battery. You aren't buying used if you need to invest more in replacement parts than the car itself.

I'm fine with that though, we need vehicles on rails instead. 80% of all microplastic are from tires.

Oderus ,
@Oderus@lemmy.world avatar

Replacing EV batteries is very rare, even in older or very used EV's

https://youtu.be/DL8ot9JqS78?si=E4fCyBE3p2sdwFmM

FluffyPotato ,

They don't seem to mention how fast batteries actually degrade, how old those vehicles are, what climate conditions they are used or how many charging cycles are on those. It's all well and good if the 15000 cars have a low amount of battery replacements but without knowing the conditions it's kinda useless.

Like where I am the temperature goes from -20C to +30C pretty much every year and in those conditions the makers rate the lifespan from 8 - 12 years.

Oderus ,
@Oderus@lemmy.world avatar

It would be nice if they provided that information but the data isn't useless without that information. It helps show that there's a pattern where batteries only lose 10% capacity after being driven a lot.

You can assume that EV's with higher milage will have been charged far more often than those with less mileage.

Canadian here and yeah, it can get down to -30C and +30C here but remember all batteries are insulated and they run glycol though them to keep them at a constant temperature which negates any external factors like weather. Polestar does their testing in the Artic circle so it's even colder so if it works well there, it'll work well anywhere.

With more EV's sold and more time passed, only then will we better understand battery life but based on what I'm seeing, it's a minor issue that won't stop me from buying an EV.

Nurgle ,

Tire runoff is nasty. There’s recently been salmon die off in the NW from a preservative chemical in tires.

AA5B ,

Batteries don’t suddenly die, but lose capacity over time. I believe batteries are already demonstrating 80+% capacity after ten years, and they should only get better as technology improves.

LFP batteries used in lower end models, such as Tesla Model 3/Y Standard, are expected to hold capacity after many more charge cycles

rimu ,
@rimu@piefed.social avatar

Just because Tesla made a lot of bad choices, that doesn't mean all EVs for all time will always be more expensive.

reddig33 ,

They should be cheaper to repair since there are less parts. The added costs are related to design decisions.

When things are welded together instead of paneled, it’s more expensive. When battery packs have to be replaced in their entirety instead of individual packs or cells, it’s more expensive. Etc. Etc.

podperson ,

Exactly. Example: on the Tesla Model 3, many of the panels (such as the rear quarter panel) are glued on instead of bolted/clipped on. So if you graze a stationary object and damage that (it happens), you're on the hook for a very expensive repair since you need a repair shop that specializes in how to deal with that (plus the actual time to do the repair, which is more complicated). Update the designs to make them more repair friendly and the cost of ownership comes way down.

ShepherdPie ,

What car has removable rear quarters? I can't think of any that aren't welded on to the C-pillar/roof/trunk.

fuckwit_mcbumcrumble ,

Basically all modern car body panels are held together with basically a really strong glue.

Socsa ,

This is literally every single car on the road

0x0 ,

Surely you don't mean to imply built-in obsolescence, do you?

Dariusmiles2123 ,

I’ll probably buy an electric car one day, but I’ll be paying a lot of attention to its repairability. We have to make sure brands understand that « programmed obsolescence » isn’t accepted by everyone!

Badeendje ,
@Badeendje@lemmy.world avatar

Lawmakers should fix that. Nothing a consumer can do here. If you know up front you can avoid a brand, but with the OTA updates and stuff they can just pull a bait and switch.

Semi-Hemi-Demigod ,
@Semi-Hemi-Demigod@kbin.social avatar

This consumer will be doing his part by not buying any car made after 2018

maynarkh ,

But they do. Individual action can't right systematic wrongs.

pumpkinseedoil ,

You might want to take a look at Aptera. If we're lucky they'll sell their first cars in 1-5 years

LibertyLizard ,
@LibertyLizard@slrpnk.net avatar

Why do you think Aptera will be better on this issue? I was very disappointed by the decision not to paint their vehicles. It’s hard to see how that won’t lead to a substandard product.

magiccupcake ,

It looks very modular, with company claiming a right to repair philosophy.

The painting seems to be aiming for a lower emissions vehicle, cheaper costs. Given that the body is not metal replacing panels should be easier if they get damaged.

Not to mention battery size doesn't need to be as large, so replacing it should be viable.

I'm hopeful but still got see how everything shakes out.

LibertyLizard ,
@LibertyLizard@slrpnk.net avatar

Cheaper costs for sure. Not sure about the rest. I understand the environmental costs associated with paint but it’s an important part of weather proofing in the current production model. Vinyl wraps just aren’t going to perform as well or last as long, are shifting a big cost onto the consumer, and raise questions about the longevity of the product. This will also have large environmental cost due to shortened lifespan.

I’m glad they’ve mentioned right to repair but I’d like to see where that rhetoric is backed by action. Otherwise it’s just more capitalist spin.

magiccupcake ,

I think I heard mentioned that they expect the wrap to last 5-10 years, which isn't great, but not terrible.

I don't think they have a choice with right to repair, as changing their stance would be detrimental to their following.

LibertyLizard , (edited )
@LibertyLizard@slrpnk.net avatar

The typical number from the industry is 3-7. And realistically, we’re looking at the low end here—sun exposure is the most important factor. It’s a fucking solar car. Maybe if you live in Alaska and park in a garage all the time it could make it to 10 years but if I buy an aptera I would park it in the sun. I also live in one of the sunniest climates in the US. I don’t want to have to spend thousands redoing this every 3 years.

I thought about putting down a deposit but decided against it for this reason. I’ll want to see how they do for a few years on the road before buying in. Especially with the recent price increases.

magiccupcake ,

I put down a deposit recently, like last month, but I have a similar outlook. I wanna see how they do after a few years to see how they hold up first. But if they look good and start selling like hotcakes I might be glad I put a deposit down early. Otherwise I'll cancel and get a Chevy bolt begrudgingly.

I wanna be optimistic because I do want Aptera to at least push the whole industry towards more repairable efficient and cheep evs.

LibertyLizard ,
@LibertyLizard@slrpnk.net avatar

I hope so but I just feel like disappointment is inevitable in this corporate production model. Even if people set out to do the right thing, the economic system forces people to behave the same ways.

maynarkh ,

Even if they turn out to be what they are, they will just get acquired at the end of their cycle of enshittification. If this shit is not regulated, the market weeds out consumer friendly options.

Cethin ,

I hadn't heard of them, but looking it up it seems like tech startup garbage. You don't need to re-invent the car. It looks like they made a silly design just to stand out. It also sacrafices a lot for that design. It's a two seater with very little storage room and probably not great for taller people like me. It also seems to have very little space for crumple-zones, so I'm curious as to how safe it is in an accident.

randomaside ,

They listen and say "We hear you but the data shows you much rather have the Witcher 3 running on your dashboard and webcam more easily monetize this."

ironhydroxide ,

This is what happens when you can DRM every piece of the car.
Tesla is being taken as a model, and it's extremely anti consumer

just_another_person ,

I don't think theyre being used as an example at all. A lot of these first generation platforms are still just trying to figure stuff out, and unless they all glob onto an existing platform, they'll never deviate from one another. Competition is good, especially to drive innovation in the early days of new fields of products like these. Most of the bigger companies have opened their platforms or pieces thereof, but that doesn't need to mean open-source. We should rely on legislature and right to repair to reign some of the anti-competitive bullshit they all pull in though, I do agree with that.

abhibeckert , (edited )

Sorry but there just isn't that much to figure out. Cars have had electric motors and batteries for as long as cars have had motors (literally - early cars didn't have a combustion engine).

You take an ordinary car, bolt a big ass motor and battery to it somewhere, and you're done. Nothing innovative needs to happen and there should be no repairability compromises. If anything they should be easier to repair.

Tesla's obsession with complex body parts is inexcusable. I used to work in the car crash insurance industry - we put Tesla in the same category as Bugatti/McLaren/etc. They're that expensive to repair... and unlike those supercars, nobody is going to be willing to spend the money get a Model 3 back to show room condition.

Get yourself in a minor fender bender like the one below and your insurance company is going to buy you a new car (the owner of this car was given a $45,000 repair quote):

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/8b8e8add-2183-451c-8a9c-1043e52fa927.png

With a conventional car, those panels would have likely been plastic (cheap to replace) or else metal but simple designs that can be bent back into shape by someone who knows how to use a panel beating hammer. What you don't see on the photo is all the weld joints that have been stressed and failed on the Tesla. It can potentially be months of work to get that car fixed and the insurance company doesn't want to provide a hire car for all that time - so they just pay out the value of the car and leave you to buy a new one.

just_another_person ,

Friend...it's not as easy as you think. If you imagine every step of the way from pressing a pedal to what happens on the drive platform, it is absolutely NOT simple whatsoever. It's not just "go" and "stop", it's a dozen steps of software on an RTOS moving so fast as to be imperceptible as a normal physical pedal interaction would, controlling multiple motors at once, synchronizing power, rotations, and detecting traction, and that's just pressing the acceleration pedal. All the other safety systems engaged in the process of they exist are very sophisticated. All of this then culminates in an experience that hopefully eulmulates what you describe, but it is certainly NOT just strapping some different motors to the same kind of car. Don't even get me started on the platform suspension automations and efficiency systems.

You're just not very well read on the subject, so you might want to go catch up before you keep spouting this nonsense and looking kind of ill-informed.

All this to say though, I am NOT sticking up for Tesla. I'm sticking up for the progress in the industry. Yeah, some shit needs to get figured out for sure, but that doesn't mean people should stick with the old way of doing that "same old bullshit" until it gets figured out in a lab somewhere. Progress needs to get made, and this is how it's shaking out.

To your point about that wreck, that sure looks like it wasn't the Tesla drivers fault, so it shouldn't impact them.

HiT3k ,

Literally everything you just mentioned either already exists in ICE cars or is entirely optional.

Rooki ,
@Rooki@lemmy.world avatar

They will never be cheaper. Just the costs of the battery, or they do shady bussiness tricks, like hooking you in cheap initial costs but horeandus repair/replacement bills.

BombOmOm , (edited )

Yeah, I'm not really sure what the path to the EV being cheaper to produce is. Every EV we have seen is more expensive than its ICE counterpart. And it isn't like batteries are some new tech that manufacturers don't know how to make well. No, these are being mass produced.

The higher repair costs come from the fact that while an EV pack is the single most expensive part of the car, and if it is damaged, you now have to replace the single most expensive part of the car.

Higher insurance costs flow from the higher purchase cost and the higher repair costs. So, those won't come down either.

Edit: One thing that could bring down repair costs would be if the EV manufacturers would stop making it so damn hard to swap in your own replacement parts. A battery and electric motor isn't complicated. But repairing either of these parts on an EV is complicated due to DRM and other anti-consumer design choices.

LesserAbe ,

Every new technology is initially more expensive, then as it moves into mass production the cost goes down because of economies of scale - more suppliers, innovations in technique.

Battery costs have gone down an insane amount already, and it doesn't look like they're done.

Going further, what percentage of accidents affect the battery pack? The article seems to conflate Tesla manufacturing techniques that make cosmetic repairs difficult with all electric vehicles - just because Tesla has long repairs doesn't mean all manufacturers do.

It also talks about electric manufacturers going out of business, but is it 15% by number of businesses or by manufacturing volume? Lucid and Rivian aren't making that many cars in terms of absolute volume, but could go under. Hyundai, Kia, Chevy et al. make a lot more cars and seem unlikely to collapse.

mipadaitu ,

An electric motor is SIGNIFICANTLY more simple to produce than an entire internal combustion engine. There are far fewer moving parts on an electric car than a gasoline one.

The battery is a significant cost, but not all cars need to have 300 miles of range. It is also possible that once the market is saturated (i.e. - several decades), that recycled battery packs will be cheaper to produce than batteries built from raw materials.

The major reason why electric cars are so expensive right now is because there are far fewer of them, and the ones that are being made have a target market of an upper-middle class household. They're luxury/status symbols as much as anything else. Secondarily, there isn't a large used electric car market yet.

There is a large potential for cost reductions. Assuming technology continues to improve, electric cars will drop below the price of gas and diesel for everyday driving. Internal combustion engines will most likely be reduced to specialty vehicles.

Usernameblankface ,
@Usernameblankface@lemmy.world avatar

Also, as we realize that we don't need 400+ miles of range in a commuter car, cheaper battery chemistries make a lot of sense, despite their shorter range per kg or lb

BombOmOm ,

Most people want a car that can do everything they need a car to do. As otherwise they have to buy a SECOND car that can perform the jobs the first car can't. At that point people look at their finances and wonder why they have the first car at all, that first car has a monthly payment, insurance, and repairs. It would be so much cheaper to ditch it and just have the car that performs all the functions.

gregorum ,
@gregorum@lemm.ee avatar

In that case, why not just have no car at all and use a bike or public transit and rent a car when you really need one?

BombOmOm ,

Car rentals are expensive and time consuming affairs. This 'solution' is worse for the vast majority of people who currently own cars. It's why you don't see people doing it.

ironhydroxide ,

When compared with the cost savings, in my personal case, renting when I need a car to drive 100+miles, is cheaper than buying a more expensive ev, or paying for fuel in a gasoline vehicle.

The time is negligible as well when I compare the time I don't spend at gas stations because I charge at home.

BeMoreCareful ,

I drove a beater with no note for like twenty years and just rented for car trips.

Having two or three car payments a year is cheaper than twelve.

It's unconventional, but plenty of people do it.

st3ph3n ,

The feasibility of that will be highly variable depending on where you live. Much of America is a public transit desert.

BakerBagel ,

Thats not true. I guarantee that whatever town you live in has a robust public transportion system that hits every single residential area.

The problem is that only children are allowed to use it, and only twice a day.

meat_popsicle ,

Hah. As somebody that had to be driven to the bus stop because it was over a mile away, I call BS.

toni_bmw ,
@toni_bmw@lemmy.world avatar

There are countless things that can’t be done without a car, even when you are a certain age or care for older family members. The reasoning of living without a car in property, in my humble opinion, is only valid at a certain time in life

dan1101 ,
@dan1101@lemm.ee avatar

If I buy an EV I would like it to do 400 miles, but I don't need 0-60 in 3 seconds.

Usernameblankface ,
@Usernameblankface@lemmy.world avatar

I think trim packages or settings in the car that trade acceleration for range make a lot of sense.

BakerBagel ,

That's not really how electric motors work though. They spin up crazy fast, which means fast 0-60 times. Think about an electric mixer in your kitchen; it takes more or less the the same amount of time for it get up to speed weather it's on the highest setting or the lowest setting since the motor is the only moving part. There is no fancy gearing to vary the speeds, it's based solely on the amount of energy being put into the system.

Usernameblankface ,
@Usernameblankface@lemmy.world avatar

Yes, and varying the amount of power put into the system would increase or decrease the total range. A full power launch depletes the battery more quickly than a gentle, controlled acceleration to road speed.

I'm talking about limiting the amount of power that can be dumped into the motor at any given time, or limiting the power of the motor itself in order to get a more efficient experience.

BakerBagel ,

That's entirely on the user at that point, and cant really be designed around. Anything you add to limit acceleration is just going to add more complexity and expense for no actual benefit. If you want better range, stop flooring the car out of every stop, same as an ICE car.

MalReynolds ,
@MalReynolds@slrpnk.net avatar

Ye canna change the laws of physics! Acceleration is proportional to force exerted (F=ma) and has nothing to do with the amount of energy stored, which gives you range. You might get a few percent efficiency bonus from lesser acceleration due to losses (so 2-3 extra Km per 100), but you can't "trade acceleration for range"

fuckwit_mcbumcrumble ,

Low 0-60 times are inherent to EVs. There's no transmission and the motor has a wide efficiency area. It's basically hard to make a non dual motor EV accelerate slowly. Single motor ones aren't quick, but you won't get AWD if that's a thing you desire.

Oderus ,
@Oderus@lemmy.world avatar

It's easy to make a less powerful motor. As someone else said, the current market is for people who are looking for better performance and aren't concerned with price. I put a deposit on a Polestar 3 that does 0-60 in 4.7s which is slow compared to its competition like the Model X and BMW iX but I don't care about 0-60. It's a meaningless metric to judge a car by. My Challenger SRT 392 does the 0-60 in 4.2s but I bought that car for how nice it looks, not its 0-60.

fuckwit_mcbumcrumble ,

But the battery pack is far and away more expensive than the engine. Shit far and away more expensive than the engine AND transmission. Shit like half an EVs price is the battery.

Usernameblankface ,
@Usernameblankface@lemmy.world avatar

Yeah, it's about the price of a full engine and transmission replacement for an internal combustion car.

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