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flowerofanarchy ,

Death to the worthless corpo world that allowed this bullshit in the first place!
Towards anarchist communism and social revolution!

Lotarion ,
@Lotarion@lemmy.world avatar

Please grow and change as a person

Emmie , (edited )

There we go guys. It’s funny when nutty conspiracy theorists are against masks when they should be wearing frikin balaclavas

Clbull ,

Please tell me a lawyer is taking this on pro bono and is about to sue the shit out of Facewatch.

Madison420 ,

For what? A private business can exclude anyone for any reason or no reason at all so long as the reason isn't a protected right.

howrar ,

I'd be surprised if being born with a specific face configuration isn't protected in the same way that race and gender are.

Madison420 ,

In the uk you can pet much guarantee that won't happen because it would shut down their surveillance state.

menemen , (edited )
@menemen@lemmy.world avatar

Even if she were the shoplifter, how would that work? "Sorry mate, you shoplifted when you were 16, now you can never buy food again."?

h4lf8yte ,

Sounds like a VAC ban.

hiramfromthechi ,
@hiramfromthechi@lemmy.world avatar

Not the first time facial recognition tech has been misused, and certainly won't be the last. The UK in particular has caught a lotta flak around this.

We seem to have a hard time connecting the digital world to the physical world and realizing just how interwoven they are at this point.

Therefore, I made an open source website called idcaboutprivacy to demonstrate the importance—and dangers—of tech like this.

It's a list of news articles that demonstrate real-life situations where people are impacted.

If you wanna contribute to the project, please do. I made it simple enough to where you don't need to know Git or anything advanced to contribute to it. (I don't even really know Git.)

NaoPb ,

From your webpage: Privacy because protects our freedom to be who we are.

I think a word is missing in that sentence.

JasonDJ ,

They accidentally the whole word.

hiramfromthechi ,
@hiramfromthechi@lemmy.world avatar

Lol it was the other way around... I actually added a word instead. Fixed

Tap for spoiler

it

now.

hiramfromthechi ,
@hiramfromthechi@lemmy.world avatar

Fixed it, thanks for flagging

PlexSheep ,

I'll link your site on my personal website, which has a link collection. Seems cool.

my links page

hiramfromthechi ,
@hiramfromthechi@lemmy.world avatar

Nice, thanks. Your site is really clean. Dig it.

PlexSheep ,

Thanks! I didn't design it myself, just wrote the content. I'm using Jekyll and a premade theme. But yeah, I like the look too.

Shyfer ,

What a great idea for a page. People are becoming blase about privacy even though it's still important.

hiramfromthechi ,
@hiramfromthechi@lemmy.world avatar

Glad you like it.

And yeah, it's foundational. We tolerate things digitally that we'd never tolerate in person.

Once I start connecting and analogizing digital to physical concepts in a conversation, it appears to "click" in their heads and they end up saying something along the lines of, "You're right. It makes sense."

Hence this project. I hope people can use this website and link it to people who need it to understand how this affects us all—now, not in the future.

dojan ,
@dojan@lemmy.world avatar

I wish I could find an English source about the guy who got woken by police assaulting him in his bed because he'd sent private sexy photos of him and his boyfriend via Yahoo mail. It's definitely one of the things that "radicalised" me.

I've mentioned it before, and there are Swedish sources, but it's perhaps not suitable for a site in English.

Alph4d0g ,

She got more than she Home Bargained for

nifty ,
@nifty@lemmy.world avatar

What happens if there’s a consumer boycott of retailers who use this type of harassment tech? It’s disproportionately targeted towards minorities. I think Target was recently bullied into removing Pride items based on consumer action, so clearly mass action has an effect.

lolcatnip ,

Boycotts are almost impossible to pull off successfully. This kind of thing demands legal action. IANAL but the facial recognition company putting her on a list of shoplifters is a claim that she's a criminal, which sounds like textbook defamation to me.

nifty ,
@nifty@lemmy.world avatar

For sure, I meant in addition to suing the banning retailers and the facial recognition tech company

phx ,

a) you'd have to know who does it, and you might not until you (or somebody else) gets caught in the net
b) boycotts are more effective if there's choice, which there won't be if mostly everybody starts using this shyte

Doof ,

Didn’t it turn out the items where just moved to another area of the store ?

SquiffSquiff ,

More reputable sure covering this and related stories https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-69055945

HawlSera ,

Stop giving corporations the power to blacklist us from life itself.

orrk ,

you will sit down and be quiet, all you parasites stifling innovation, the market will solve this, because it is the most rational thing in existence, like trains, oh god how I love trains, I want to be f***ed by trains.

~~Rand

HawlSera ,

I can see the Invisible Hand of the Free Market, it's giving me the finger.

samus12345 ,
@samus12345@lemmy.world avatar

Right up your ass, no less.

HawlSera ,

It charged me for lube, and I thought about paying for it, but same-day shipping was a bitch and a half... I tried second class mail, but I think my bumhole would have stretched enough for this to stop hurting before it got anywhere near close to here so I just opted for that.

werefreeatlast ,

Can it give invisible hand jobs?

HawlSera ,

Yes, but they're in the "If you have to ask, you couldn't afford it in three lifetimes." price range

werefreeatlast ,

Darn!

Jtotheb ,

The whole wide world of authors who have written about the difficulties of this new technological age and you choose the one who had to pretend her work was unpopular

orrk ,

go read rand, her books literally advocate for an anti-social world order, where the rich and powerful have the ability to do whatever they want without impediment as the "workers" are described as parasites that should get in line or die

Alexstarfire ,

Are you suggesting they shouldn't be allowed to ban people from stores? The only problem I see here is misused tech. If they can't verify the person, they shouldn't be allowed to use the tech.

I do think there need to be reprocussions for situations like this.

HawlSera ,

Well there should be a limited amount of ability to do so. I mean there should be police reports or something at the very least. I mean, what if Facial Recognition AI catches on in grocery stores? Is this woman just banned from all grocery stores now? How the fuck is she going to eat?

Alexstarfire ,

That's why I said this was a misuse of tech. Because that's extremely problematic. But there's nothing to stop these same corps from doing this to a person even if the tech isn't used. This tech just makes it easier to fuck up.

I'm against the use of this tech to begin with but I'm having a hard time figuring out if people are more upset about the use of the tech or about the person being banned from a lot of stores because of it. Cause they are separate problems and the latter seems more of an issue than the former. But it also makes fucking up the former matter a lot more as a result.

HawlSera ,

Reddit became a ban-happy wasteland, and if the tides swing a similar way, we'll see a society where Big Tech gates people out of the very foundation of Modern Society. It's exclusion that I'm against.

TonyOstrich ,

I wish I could remember where I saw it, but years ago I read something in relation to policing that said a certain amount of human inefficiency in a process is actually a good thing to help balance bias and over reach that could occur when technology could technically do in seconds what would take a human days or months.

In this case if a person is enough of a problem that their face becomes known at certain branches of a store it's entirely reasonable for that store to post a sign with their face saying they are aren't allowed. In my mind it would essentially create a certain equilibrium in terms of consequences and results. In addition to getting in trouble for stealing itself, that individual person also has a certain amount of hardship placed on them that may require they travel 40 minutes to do their shopping instead of 5 minutes to the store nearby. A sign and people's memory also aren't permanent, so it's likely that after a certain amount of time that person would probably be able to go back to that store if they had actually grown out of it.

Or something to that effect. If they steal so much that they become known to the legal system there should be processes in place to address it.

And even with all that said, I'm just not that concerned with theft at large corporate retailers considering wage theft dwarfs thefts by individuals by at least an order of magnitude.

setsneedtofeed ,
@setsneedtofeed@lemmy.world avatar

This is a bad situation for her. I am genuinely curious under what standing she is suing. Thinking it through, this seems like a situation where the laws might not have caught up to what is happening. I hope she gets some changes out of this, but I am really curious on the legal mechanics of how that might happen.

intensely_human ,

This is an example of why “they’re private businesses so they can ban whoever they want for any reason” is problematic.

I’m wondering if maybe there should be a size threshold for full consent on business dealings. Like if you run a small business, you get to kick anyone out for any reason. But if your business is so big that it runs a significant portion of the market, then you would need to adhere to certain standards for how and when you ban someone from doing business with you.

setsneedtofeed ,
@setsneedtofeed@lemmy.world avatar

A tangent to explore. I though am curious how the current case under the current laws is expecting to go forward.

Hacksaw ,

Stores in most developed countries, UK included, can refuse service only for legitimate reasons, and they have to do so uniformly based on fair and unbiased rules. If they don't, they're at risk of an unlawful discrimination suite.

https://www.milnerslaw.co.uk/can-i-choose-my-customers-the-right-to-refuse-service-in-uk-law

She didn't do anything that would be considered a "legitimate reason", and although applied uniformly, it's difficult to prove that an AI model doesn't discriminate against protected groups. Especially with so many studies showing the opposite.

I think she has as much standing as anyone to sue for discrimination. There was no legitimate reason to refuse service, AI models famously discriminate against women and minorities, especially when it comes to "lower class" criminal behavior like shoplifting.

setsneedtofeed ,
@setsneedtofeed@lemmy.world avatar

I am waiting to follow the case for updates, because while I hope that the outcome pushes back on AI system like this, I am skeptical of current laws to perceive what is happening as protected class discrimination. I presume in the UK the burden for proving fault in the AI lays on the plaintiff, which is at the heart of if the reason is legitimate in the eyes of the law.

snek ,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

It's not only that it discriminated against certain groups, but also that it in itself has a high enough error rate to make it unusable for any decision making. MAYBE to select people for screening, but we would be falling further down into a dystopian future.

At the current performance, none if these AIs should be involved in anything this critical.

phx ,

I'd also wonder about a case against the company supplying the facial rec software/DB. Essentially they are fingering her as a criminal in a way that has a notable impact, which seems like a potential case for slander/libel to me (not sure what a "bad db entry" would fall under in this case).

chiliedogg ,

She needs to apply for a jobs at these companies that use the software in order to generate damages she can sue over.

SquiffSquiff ,

'Standing'? This isn't the US. The law in the UK is a bit different.

In British administrative law, an applicant needs to have a sufficient interest in the matter to which the application relates

I think this woman can show that

setsneedtofeed ,
@setsneedtofeed@lemmy.world avatar

And this is why I'm asking, because I know little about UK law, and am trying to figure out how this is going to move forward. She can sue, now I wonder about the theory that leads to a win. Protected categories is a start, but it feels vague, and I'm curious what the precise angle and evidence brought in will be.

SquiffSquiff ,

Not seen where protected categories are mentioned but they aren't vague. The evidence will presumably be that she was thrown out/barred based on an automated camera recommendation. This will be on record and thus she can show harm. The security guard apparently gave a reason for ejection at the time, ditto. What can the retailer say? "Oh someone else told us she was someone else your honour"? Most likely they will try to settle out of court.

dezmd ,
@dezmd@lemmy.world avatar

Sufficient interest in the matter equates to standing in a general manner.

interdimensionalmeme ,

Now now, thought we had agreed not to use facial recognition, am I going to have to collapse civilization or are you going to behave ? Last warning

intensely_human ,

How you gonna do it?

Pilferjinx ,

Get facial recognition to lay the heat on someone else might be a good start. Gotta game the system to destroy it.

Kolanaki ,
@Kolanaki@yiffit.net avatar

https://yiffit.net/pictrs/image/7705aab0-8959-4427-bbe7-433c1447b978.jpeg

interdimensionalmeme ,

So many ways, it's hard to pick just one. Plus it would ruin the surprise.

nossaquesapao ,

But you don't need to do anything in order to let our civilization collapse.

interdimensionalmeme ,

Ah come on ! You're spoiling the magic trick !

Nommer ,

Just do it already. I'm tired.

Sam_Bass ,

Thats about as close to a generic female face there is

afraid_of_zombies ,

The developers should be looking at jail time as they falsely accused someone of commiting a crime. This should be treated exactly like if I SWATed someone.

Guest_User ,

I get your point but totally disagree this is the same as SWATing. People can die from that. While this is bad, she was excluded from stores, not murdered

AnxiousOtter ,

You lack imagination. What happens when the system mistakenly identifies someone as a violent offender and they get tackled by a bunch of cops, likely resulting in bodily injury.

MiddleKnight ,

That would then be an entirely different situation?

blusterydayve26 ,

That's not very reassuring, we're still only one computer bug away from that situation.

Presumably she wasn't identified as a violent criminal because the facial recognition system didn't associate her duplicate with that particular crime. The system would be capable of associating any set of crimes with a face. It's not like you get a whole new face for each different possible crime. So, we're still one computer bug away from seeing that outcome.

PM_Your_Nudes_Please ,

I mean, the article points out that the lady in the headline isn’t the only one who has been affected; A dude was falsely detained by cops after they parked a facial recognition van on a street corner, and grabbed anyone who was flagged.

AnxiousOtter ,

No, it wouldn't be. The base circumstance is the same, the software misidentifying a subject. The severity and context will vary from incident to incident, but the root cause is the same - false positives.

There's no process in place to prevent something like this going very very bad. It's random chance that this time was just a false positive for theft. Until there's some legislative obligation (such as legal liability) in place to force the company to create procedures and processes for identifying and reviewing false positives, then it's only a matter of time before someone gets hurt.

You don't wait for someone to die before you start implementing safety nets. Or rather, you shouldn't.

Custodian1623 ,

People should be thrown in jail over a hypothetical?

Alenalda ,

Mike judge calling it out again https://youtu.be/5d7SaO0JAHk?si=rieJnFE0YHd-_3lY

BCsven ,

This happens in the USA without face recognition

FiniteBanjo ,

In the UK at least a SWATing would be many many times more deadly and violent than a normal police interaction. Can't make the same argument for the USA or Russia, though.

afraid_of_zombies ,

Difference in degree not kind

ipkpjersi ,

I'm not so sure the blame should solely be placed on the developers - unless you're using that term colloquially.

IllNess ,

Developers were probably the first people to say that it isn't ready. Blame the sales people that will say anything for money.

afraid_of_zombies ,

They worked on it, they knew what could happen. I could face criminal charges if I do certain things at work that harm the public.

IllNess ,

I have no idea where Facewatch got their software from. The developers of this software could've been told their software will be used to find missing kids. Not really fair to blame developers. Blame the people on top.

afraid_of_zombies ,

It says right on their webpage what they are about.

IllNess ,

Developers don't always work directly for companies. Companies pivot.

yetAnotherUser ,

It's impossible to have a 0% false positive rate, it will never be ready and innocent people will always be affected. The only way to have a 0% false positive rate is with the following algorithm:

def is_shoplifter(face_scan):
return False

Zagorath ,
@Zagorath@aussie.zone avatar 
line 2
    return False
    ^^^^^^
IndentationError: expected an indented block after function definition on line 1
nossaquesapao ,

In their defense, it didn't return a false positive

yetAnotherUser ,

Weird, for me the indentation renders correctly. Maybe because I used Jerboa and single ticks instead of triple ticks?

https://files.catbox.moe/dduzi6.JPG

Zagorath ,
@Zagorath@aussie.zone avatar

Interesting. This is certainly not the first time there have been markdown parsing inconsistencies between clients on Lemmy, the most obvious example being subscript and ^superscript^, especially when multiple words ^get used^ or you use ^reddit ^style ^(superscript text).

But yeah, checking just now on Jerboa you're right, it does display correctly the way you did it. I first saw it on the web in lemmy-ui, which doesn't display it properly, unless you use the triple backticks.

afraid_of_zombies ,

You can arrest their managers as well, good point.

uis ,
@uis@lemm.ee avatar

Is it even legal? What happened to consumer protection laws?

PenisWenisGenius ,

I'm going to think twice before enerting any big box store because of this.

afraid_of_zombies ,

I am amazed that anyone is still using them. It is the 21st century, just shop online.

intensely_human ,

Last time I ordered big boxes online, they just shipped me empty boxes. I don’t know how they screwed that up, but then I’ve always gone to big box stores so I can actually see the big boxes I’m buying.

afraid_of_zombies ,

Fair

deafboy ,
@deafboy@lemmy.world avatar

No need to avoid such stores, just wear a protection to avoid your face from being falsely flagged.

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/78e5db4f-50dc-466c-9e82-02eb25f7a5d2.webp

ChillPenguin ,

Welcome to 2024. Where we move closer and closer to black mirror being real due to our technology improvements.

Buddahriffic ,

Plus our allowing sociopaths to hold so much power.

intensely_human ,

Allowing bad character to reign generally speaking. Sociopaths are like seed crystals; it’s the rest of us implanting their way of life that do most of the evil, even if they’re the ones providing the purest examples.

We need to be good people, not just nice people, in order to improve things.

maynarkh ,

Brexit. The EU has laws forbidding stuff like this.

uis ,
@uis@lemm.ee avatar

I don't think this is legal in Russia, Ukraine and Belarus either.

StaySquared ,

Dang... the UK got China'd.

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