Welcome to Incremental Social! Learn more about this project here!
Check out lemmyverse to find more communities to join from here!

VeganTomato ,

He does have a point you know, the Palestinians are not known for their tolerance of homosexuality, nor are muslims in general for that matter.

Socsa ,

I mean a big part of the conflict is absolutely religious extremism precluding the possibility of a unified Palestinian secular democracy. I don't fully understand why some in the LGBT community seem to give Islam a pass on this.

spujb OP ,

no one is giving anyone a pass. it’s possible to condemn both genocidal violence and religious extremism.

hope this helps.

Socsa ,

Oh absolutely. Netanyahu is legitimately evil and needs to be dealt with. But I have legitimately seen LGBT people on here defending Hamas as heroes and I just don't get it. Indiscriminate rape and murder of civilians isn't right when Hamas does it, or when Netanyahu does it.

spujb OP ,

when you see this call them the fuck out and report it. such defense of terrorism would be abhorrent and in violation of community/site rules.

but gtfo of my comments implying that condemning genocide and defending Hamas are at all the same. that is not the conversation being had.

im trying to be kind here but what you are doing right now is called astroturfing and it’s gross.

Socsa ,

I think people are free to genuinely disagree on nuance. Though I believe we generally agree.

TotallynotJessica ,
@TotallynotJessica@lemmy.world avatar

The issue is that people see the rise of Hamas as the reason democracy failed in Gaza, rather than the result of Netanyahu's efforts to undermine every attempt at Palestinian democracy since the Oslo Accords. When attempts at peace were rejected by the occupying force that kept Palestinians imprisoned in their own lands, Palestinians lost faith that they'd ever see results from it. Hamas obtained Gaza because Israel refused to support the PLO and work towards a 2 state solution.

The fascists in Israel knew that by simply refusing to allow progress, they would empower regression towards hatred and terrorism. They knew the US wouldn't do shit to pressure them properly during that critical window, because the US gives borderline unconditional support as long as Israel remains their ally. Judeo-fascists have done everything they could to steal autonomy away from Palestinians, so I see Israel as more responsible for Hamas than the Palestinian population.

They fed a monster for decades as an excuse to commit ethnic cleansing. If Israel wanted to avoid genocide, they should have fed those pushing for a two state solution. Their failure to do so has killed thousands of innocents and endangered the entire region. The focus must be on removing Israeli fascists and giving support to Palestinians, not giving support to Israelis and removing Palestinian fascists. Hamas can die by being starved, or by killing all Palestinians. Occupation probably wouldn't work without a huge sacrifice of IDF soldiers, whereas starving Hamas of support would mostly cost money through the removal of settlements and returning land. We have benevolence or genocide, and I don't see benevolence in the cards.

moosetwin ,
@moosetwin@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

all human lives have value

you say that but during the oceangate thing I saw the people on this community making memes saying that they hoped the people in the craft died in one of the worst ways possible (before it was revealed that they likely died painlessly)

note

I agree that all human lives have value, I am just frustrated with this community's seeming two-facedness

retrieval4558 ,

Ignoring the literal-ness of "all human lives have value", equating billionaires to an ethic group enduring apartheid and genocide is a hell of a take...

Jumi ,

They all have value but not necessarily the same.

naevaTheRat ,
@naevaTheRat@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

People have value, people can also behave monsterously and it can be a good thing if they stop which can include dying.

Human lives don't have infinite value, that would be a position that would mean killing someone on a murderous rampage would be just as bad as letting them kill forever.

Two things can be true:

  • people should not be killed because of who they are and lives should be spared where possible

and

  • some people are harmful and it's fine to want them to face some sort of consequences for that and/or die and stop being harmful.
LwL ,

There's a difference between "it wouldn't be so bad if they die" and "i hope they died in the worst way possible". I think the former about quite a few people, but while there's some fucked up part of me that delights in assholes getting what they deserve, I'm still not gonna celebrate someone going through torture.

Tbh I just don't think the people upvoting this meme are likely the same people, i constantly see comments on here dehumanizing people for having backwards-ass views on things, which would be perfectly in line with saying the genocide is okay because many of the people affected hold similar views.

It's obviously not, not just because that's bound to not apply to everyone, but also because people can change and are a product of their environment.

halva , (edited )
@halva@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

"all human lives have value" doesn't include "and you shouldn't ever schadenfreude at rich idiots dying because of their folly"

GeneralVincent ,

I think the loss of life, including the oceangate thing, is sad.

I also think the obscenely rich are actively devaluing their own life through their greed, versus this case where people are born into this situation. Some have a kinda 'got what they deserve' attitude for the first (also this community doesn't always agree on how radical it is haha)

0x2d ,

billionaire lives have no value

pewgar_seemsimandroid ,

the people in Gaza did nothing wrong, and so did the Jews. can't we just disband Hamas and give Gaza under UN control until we figure out a long term solution, Israel may not like that, but do they really want a stronger version of Hamas to form like that happened in lebadon.

FakeGreekGirl ,
@FakeGreekGirl@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

We'll also need to oust the current Israeli government and ban Netanyahu from being re-elected. This is all at least as much his fault as it is Hamas's, he's been building it for decades, and if he is allowed to retain office, he'll just do it again.

kittenzrulz123 ,

As a Jewish person they are settler colonialists, not innocent civilians.

halva ,
@halva@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

random israelis have as much of a right to live there as palestinians do (and vice versa), it's not written on the land that jewish/arabic/literally whatever else people should be banned from ever living there

the issue is that the israeli government seems to disagree, especially the genocidal maniacs from likud, especially netanyahu

kittenzrulz123 ,

You don't understand, I grew up with Zionists. I fully understand the fascist Zionist ideology that is widespread within Jews both in Israel and abroad. I understand what they say when the cameras turn off, I know what they believe. Palestine can never be free if Zionists are colonizing the land, Likud may be bad but remember it was Labor that did the Nakba.

naevaTheRat ,
@naevaTheRat@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Some were just born there. Idk if visiting the sins of ancestors on children clever. Defs needs to be some sort of reconciliation process and evening the wealth and land held by all who live there.

Nfi how this will happen. Truthtelling and reconciliation is barely happening in other colonial nations with significantly less oppression and hatred towards the native people :(

Socsa ,

Visiting the sin's of ancestors on children is kind of the entire point of religion isn't it?

naevaTheRat ,
@naevaTheRat@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

What the Kentucky fried fuck does this have to do with the price of beans?

Also just what? there are religions that have nothing to do with concepts of sin or karma or whatever.

undergroundoverground ,

If I broke into your house and claimed the top floor, would you be ok with the whole thing being enforced by the police, until "we figure out a (new and more favorable to me) long term solution"? I highly doubt it.

We already have a long term solution. Specifically a two state solution where Israel gives back the land it illegally stole. Its just that Israel has no intention of following international law.

pewgar_seemsimandroid ,

im okay with that solution

Socsa ,

The current Israeli government does reject a two state solution, but historically it has been the PLO and PA and Hamas who have rejected these plans going back almost 100 years.

bonus_crab ,

'Just disband hamas' - this war has actually made them much more popular among palestinians. source

Most palestinians think hamas was justified in the oct 7 attack and 44% support them in their goal to eradicate israel.

pewgar_seemsimandroid ,

then fuck them

alilbee ,

Just disband Hamas

Anyone who has this thought needs to take some responsibility and realize they have no business having any "ideas" about what should happen with Israel and Palestine. It's the "let's replace all the school fountains with mountain dew dispensers" of adult politics. I'm genuinely baffled that someone could say that with a straight face.

Socsa ,

I would encourage you to read the history of the conflict going back to Mandatory Palestine. Gaza was not made into what it is on day one. Many attempts have been made for both secular unification, and peaceful partition, and it has generally been the Arab population which have rejected these plans, even when given significant majority power over the legislature in the original Palestine plan. They refused a 60% guaranteed Islamic majority because it would have 20% guaranteed Jewish representation.

Obviously the modern day Palestinians had no say in that, and every new generation of innocents is absolutely justified in their radicalization. But make no mistake the role religion has played in sustaining this conflict.

Keeponstalin ,

The concept of Transfer in Zionist thought and the displacement of Palestinians since the 1920s culminated into a full fledged ethnic cleansing campaign in 1948

The Concept of Transfer 1882-1948

Transfer Committee and the JNF led to Forced Displacement of 100,000 Palestinians throughout the mandate.

Plan Dalet

Details of Plan C (May 1946) and Plan D (March 1948)

Partition and later the Two-State Solution have been wielded by Israel to covet and annex as much Palestinian land as possible with the least amount of Palestinians.

Before 1948, Palestinian Leadership repeatedly advocated for a Unitary Binational State for decades.

The Concept of Transfer 1882-1948

Palestinian Arab Congress advocating for Unified State 1928

Arab Higher Committee advocating for Unified State 1937

Arab League advocating for Unified Binational State 1948

After the founding of Israel, the Two-State Solutions were utilized to further annex the Palestinian Occupied Territories and enact military control over Palestinians while denying them human and civil rights. Despite this, both Fatah and later Hamas have accepted a Two-State Solution on the 1967 borders, with the two most important factors being the Right of Return of Palestinian refugees and an end to the permanent occupation.

Oslo Accords MEE, NYT, Haaretz, AJ

History of peace process

naevaTheRat ,
@naevaTheRat@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

I will happily stand up for the basic human rights of people who may despise me. They're rights.

Even if someone thinks I'm awful, that doesn't mean it's ok to wipe them out. If they start harming people then it is appropriate to handle that however is prudent but I believe that people ought not be tried, convicted, and executed in someone's head.

Besides, solidarity has a marvelous tendency to build bridges.

Catoblepas ,

My response to that asinine argument is and remains: so the fuck what if they’d kill me? You think that makes them special? I grew up in the deepest red hellhole you can imagine, plenty of people there would want me dead for being queer too. Is it suddenly fine to war crime my entire home town?

prole ,
@prole@sh.itjust.works avatar

Is it suddenly fine to war crime my entire home town?

Depends, are there lots of black people there and/or is it called "Tulsa"?

VaultBoyNewVegas ,

There's lgbtq people in Gaza. Nevermind civilians from any country shouldn't be starved or killed because of the actions of a few. Collective punishment is wrong no matter who it happens too.

regul ,

Oppressed people support other oppressed people.

It's called solidarity, sweaty.

spujb OP ,

💯💯💯

antonim ,

Why of course, I sure can't wait until Israelis genocide Palestinians and finally make the region way more LGBT-friendly, God bless. 🫡

I do have to wonder what do people who claim things like these think of LGBTs who participate in right-wing political parties in the west. Are they bothered by such hypocrisy too?

Ilovethebomb ,

I'm honoured, that's all I can say.

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

Remember folks, even though this person has just exposed themselves as the person being rightly mocked by OP, we shouldn't brigade their comments.

TotallynotJessica ,
@TotallynotJessica@lemmy.world avatar

At least I made a good response to their original post. Clowning on this comment since before it was popular 😎

FirstMajesticComet ,
@FirstMajesticComet@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

I find it amazing that not only was the original comment not removed but that this person wasn't banned from blahaj.zone for it.

spujb OP ,

i’m a bit concerned for the moderation on this community specifically lately. i understand it’s a difficult and thankless task but hoping it improves 🤞

fortunately i was able to get some rhetorical content out of this disturbing take lol

queue ,
@queue@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

We're trying to get more mods, and no one reported this comment either. We can't see all comments and posts. Please report if you see something.

spujb OP ,

ugh im sorry i swear i reported this but i must have forgot or failed to send. i made a whole post dunking on it too my bad.

appreciate y’all. <3

Ilovethebomb ,

What's wrong, the chamber losing it's echo?

queue ,
@queue@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

We're trying to get more mods, and no one reported this comment either. We can't see all comments and posts. Please report if you see something.

LinkOpensChest_wav ,
@LinkOpensChest_wav@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

People who say things like this are erasing all the LGBTQIA+ people in Palestine; but even if there were somehow no queer people there (impossible), nothing excuses a genocide.

I saw a map with comments by LGBTQIA+ Palestinian people. I think I saved it, I'll see if I can find and post it here.

Edit: Found it.

From queering the map.

wren ,
@wren@sopuli.xyz avatar

Absolutely heartbreaking...

MossyFeathers ,

Thanks for sharing this, I wasn't aware of its existence. I wish it had an (optional) app though; for some reason it loads very slowly on my phone.

LinkOpensChest_wav ,
@LinkOpensChest_wav@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

It loads very slowly on my desktop PC as well. I suspect it ended up getting more volume than anticipated.

spujb OP ,

A conversation with Dr. Sa’ed Atshan about the rise in LGBTQ+ solidarity with Palestine and the reductionism of its backlash.

  • All
  • Subscribed
  • Moderated
  • Favorites
  • •
  • 196@lemmy.blahaj.zone
  • incremental_games
  • meta
  • All magazines
    •