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Cloudflare took down our website after trying to force us to pay $120000 within 24h

Also, interesting comment I found on HackerNews (HN):

This post was definitely demoted by HN. It stayed in the first position for less than 5 minutes and, as it quickly gathered upvotes, it jumped straight into 24th and quickly fell off the first page as it got 200 or so more points in less than an hour.

I'm 80% confident HN tried to hide this link. It's the fastest downhill I've noticed on here, and I've been lurking and commenting for longer than 10 years.

VantaBrandon ,

The tl;dr seems to be this was a money losing account for Cloudflare, and they couldn't squeeze them so they weaseled out with some TOS violation to prevent losing money on what was promised to be unlimited traffic, they have better lawyers so they're not worried.

Cloudflare 100% in the wrong here, they are closing accounts for TOS violations when they are just unprofitable, I would very strongly consider how tightly to couple with them knowing how cavalier they are about squashing small businesses.

If enough of these happen though, they'll get destroyed by a class action lawsuit, and they'd deserve every bit of it

KairuByte ,
@KairuByte@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Okay, yes this is an issue. But small business? This was a multinational casino site… that doesn’t scream small business to me.

sudneo ,

Online casinos can become international very simply, it doesn't necessarily mean it's a big company. You usually get a license and can operate in that country + a number of gray markets. Ofc there are also huge companies, but "international" doesn't mean much for an online business.

KairuByte ,
@KairuByte@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Yes… but 4 million active users is quite high. I doubt anyone would consider that “small business”.

sudneo ,

Yes, that's true. I guess that is for sure a better metric that being "international".

daq ,

CF doesn't give a fuck about 80tb of traffic. These guys were in severe TOS violation that could affect all CF customers if CF IPs got blocked. Given 48 hours to bring their own IPs and switch to (expensive AF anywhere) enterprise account and finally shut down TWO WEEKS later after trying to weasel their way out of this instead of accepting they need to pay to play this stupid game.

We've been CF customers forever and enshitification is definitely affecting all of their services and mostly customer support, but in this instance I'm 100% on the side of CF.

sudneo ,

I worked for an online casino in the past. What they do is a standard in the industry. The company I worked for was a small startup and onwed hundreds of domains, mostly just to protect the brand, 98% of which redirected to the main domain, with a few serving slightly different sites for different jurisdictions (e.g. Ontario regulations require that everything happens under a .ca domain). The "blocking evasion" doesn't require CF to do anything, besides forcing the customer to block traffic from certain countries (the ones where you are suspected to evade the block). At this point - if the casino is really operating in the black or gray markets - they can just set ingress to their site outside CF for those countries only if they really wanted. I worked also for a company who was doing this to allow traffic from Russia, changing every day mirrors (and they had an IT department of maybe 20, it was a joke), and Russia was the main market for them.

If what is told in the article is true - I.e. 95% of the traffic was through the main website - then it doesn't look like they were really doing this sort of evading deliberately, considering that in that 5% you have all your alternative TLDs plus the traffic from gray/black markets. Having hundreds of domains and some small percentage of traffic from black markets is something that just happens, it's different from continuously registering new domains for providing access where the previous ones got DNS blocked (this is domain block). It doesn't seem this is what they were doing based on the article, and if they were, then CF emails didn't mention it, which is insane.

Obviously we don't know the full story, so everything has to he taken with a grain of salt.

merc ,

I’m 100% on the side of CF.

100%?

We scheduled a call with their “Business Development” department. Turns out the meeting was with their Sales team,

...

So we scheduled another call, now with their "Trust and Safety" team. But it turns out, we were actually talking to Sales again.

This is the part that's ridiculous to me. If CloudFlare thinks they're violating TOS that's fine. If they're willing to let them continue with their business as-is as long as they pay more? That's fine. But, scheduling calls with one group and it turns out it's actually CloudFlare's sales team on the phone, that's ridiculous.

daq ,

Well, the way he describes it does sound messed up, but if the only solution CF is willing to accept is for them to bring their own IPs and that is only available with an enterprise plan, what kind of conversation were they expecting? And like I said in another thread, enshitification at CF affected their customer service the most. We went from being able to to speak directly to devs, to people who actually understood the problem, to first tier support that didn't understand shit to 0 tier support that barely understands English.

Klear , (edited )

These articles are always embellished, so I would take it with a grain of salt.

SquiffSquiff ,

It seems that you've misunderstood what the issue is here from cloudflare's perspective. The customer was using cloudflare IP addresses, which is causing a knock-on effect for the rest of cloudflare's customers and putting cloudflare as a business themselves at risk. The alternative was for the customer to use their own IP addresses as cloudflare advised . I'm not sure what you think 'Business development' teams do but I certainly wouldn't be expecting engineering advice from them.

merc ,

The customer was using cloudflare IP addresses, which is causing a knock-on effect for the rest of cloudflare’s customers and putting cloudflare as a business themselves at risk.

Right, so sales should not be involved in any way.

The alternative was for the customer to use their own IP addresses as cloudflare advised .

Again, sales should not have been involved in any way.

I’m not sure what you think ‘Business development’ teams do but I certainly wouldn’t be expecting engineering advice from them.

They are at least not identical to sales. They work with sales, but there's at least some engineering component of the job. In this case if you were told you were meeting with the business development team, you'd expect that there would be talk about an engineering solution to the problem. Not just paying cloudflare more money.

Zak ,
@Zak@lemmy.world avatar

I did a quick search through Cloudflare's TOS and did not find anything about gambling. What was the TOS violation here?

What I'm seeing is Cloudflare communicating very poorly about what actions the customer would need to take to keep their site operating, why, and what the timeline would be. "We've determined operating your casino website on Cloudflare IP addresses is an unacceptable risk to our other customers and we require that you upgrade to an Enterprise plan within two weeks or your service will be terminated" is clear, concise, and I believe entirely fair. What they did here makes me think they're an unreliable and unpredictable service provider.

daq ,

Gambling is not TOS violation. Exposing CFs IPs to be blocked would affect ALL customers so CF is naturally aggressively protecting those Running any business that puts CFs IPs at risk is the TOS violation here.

I wish I was the fly on the wall during that meeting, but I have very little doubts casino understood the problem very well and were trying to weasel their way out of paying for an enterprise service (to anyone) and having to use their own IPs which are trivial to block. And if you continue buying more and rotating it will likely quickly get you on the black list with anyone still selling them.

I may be simplifying and maybe casino's CTO and the entire tech team are a bunch of naive newborns, but I really fucking doubt it.

Zak ,
@Zak@lemmy.world avatar

Again, I'm not seeing an unambiguous TOS violation here. They have some catch-all stuff about creating an undue burden and an even broader clause saying, essentially they can drop any customer without cause. I have no doubt Cloudflare is legally in the clear, but when I read about something like this, I think I wouldn't set anything important up with Cloudflare as a critical part of its infrastructure.

Of course, the author could be leaving out a bunch of context to make himself look good.

daq ,

If the article was about a non profit or a legit small business with a web presence, I would agree with you. We're talking about massively risky business with spectacular profit margins.

I just don't believe that CF suddenly realized these guys are rolling in money and wanted their cut. The risk just wasn't worth it to CF confirmed by the fact that they did not negotiate at all and happily lost the casino as their client.

We're easily making enough to pay $120k/yr to CF, but they are not creating that much value for us and we're not introducing any risk to them so what we pay makes sense for both sides.

Zak ,
@Zak@lemmy.world avatar

Maybe I haven't been clear enough.

I have no objection to Cloudflare or any other service provider dropping a risky or unprofitable customer. That's normal and fair in business.

What I don't like is their apparent poor communication and failure to provide a clear (and reasonably distant) deadline so that the author's company could find a solution that avoided downtime. Were I on that company's board, I'd likely be pretty unhappy with the author for not having a contingency plan prepared in advance, but as a third-party observer my main takeaway is that if I rely on Cloudflare and they suddenly decide they don't like something I'm doing, I'm screwed.

daq ,

Your conclusion is based on only one side of the story. And this story is coming from an unnamed business that's using social media to shit on a provider that dropped them.

But even assuming that's true, name any other large provider that would behave differently. AWS will terminate your services instantly and their support is even worse than CF. Apple is the same and then will take 2 weeks to reply. Google is a ghosting champion.

Just to be clear I'm talking about B2B relationships. Not end user communication.

Zak ,
@Zak@lemmy.world avatar

It's true I'm assuming the author is being honest about what Cloudflare sent them and not leaving out a message where they made the situation abundantly clear. That's definitely possible, and we probably won't find out because big companies don't usually give public responses to this sort of thing.

name any other large provider that would behave differently

I can't, and this makes me inclined to believe it's a mistake to rely on any of them without a failover plan. Of course that's effectively impossible for some situations, like mobile apps requiring app store access. That seems like a situation that calls for antitrust enforcement.

todd_bonzalez ,

Regarding the HN shenanigans, their algorithm does some weird things.

If a new post gets too many upvotes and not enough comments, it gets demoted very quickly.

If any of the activity appears manufactured, it basically delists the post.

Very exploitable, but also prevents popular articles that don't stimulate conversation from sticking around on page 1 for too long, and makes botting upvotes do more harm than good.

suction ,

HN is a libertarian hellhole full of divorced incel energy

the_crotch ,

Repoint your DNS, send everything to legal, delete Facebook hit the gym

secretlyaddictedtolinux ,

this is disgusting and knowing this, i will never pay cloudflare for anything nor recommend them to anyone ever

Jakesvito ,

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Agent641 ,

Veronica's pronouns are he/her?

Jakesvito ,

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Jakesvito ,

It's a she ( her)

draughtcyclist ,

Realistically, this is why you pay for Akamai. You don't get these shenanigans.

How the fuck were they still on a $250 dollar a month plan when they pumped through $2000 a month worth of traffic? That's shady on the companiy's part and Cloudflare shouldn't have allowed it to happen in the first place.

Each party played their part here and did shitty things. Sounds like the tech equivalent of a crackhead arguing about selling stuff to the pawn shop employee.

ryven ,
@ryven@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

The $250/month plan supposedly includes unlimited traffic. If there's actually a limit where you're supposed to switch to a more expensive plan with no standardized price, maybe CF should say what the limit is?

draughtcyclist ,

They absolutely should have outlined a traffic limit for the $250 a month plan. That's on Cloudflare for allowing it.

That said, if you make wildly excessive use of that loophole it probably shouldn't surprise you if they do something like this. They called it "trust and safety" because it allows them to do anything they want under the guide of security.

Really, they didn't define their service clearly and wanted to fire them as a customer unless they paid up for what they felt they were owed.

TheTetrapod ,

If something is marketed as "unlimited", I don't think there is such a thing as "wildly excessive use". This isn't a competitive eater going to an all-you-can-eat buffet and being mad about getting kicked out. It's a business using a service in a way that's seemingly in-line with what they paid for.

JeffKerman1999 ,

It's the same definition of "unlimited" that Telcos use: you pay for unlimited but it really is XXgb of data per month, after that they either disconnect you or throttle your traffic at a glacial pace...

lazynooblet ,
@lazynooblet@lazysoci.al avatar

And in both cases, that is bullshit. Just because it happens doesn't mean we should accept it.

Gullible ,

A man walks into whorehouse at half past seven, inquires about prices, and learns that it’s 250 per night, per person for the room. “Everything they consent to is available to the customer” says the proprietor. Gladly he pays and climbs up the steps with his hand clasped tenderly, finally landing upon a plain pink cushion, whereupon he proceeds to fuck the absolute shit out of his companion for six full hours. The brothel quakes in rhythm with their dual shrieks of ecstasy for the full duration.

As he begins dressing himself across from the nearly comatose prostitute, the proprietor returns, requesting two hundred and ninety dollars for the extended stay and sixty for the damage to her employee. It was at that moment that the man realized that the madame was a 70 foot tall crustacean from the Paleozoic era. He yells “goddamn Loch Ness monster, I ain’t giving you no three fifty!”

AVincentInSpace ,

...huh?

mightyfoolish ,

South Park reference. Probably the funniest episode in the whole show outside of "Hare Club for Men".

Vlyn ,
@Vlyn@lemmy.zip avatar

"Unlimited" doesn't exist in this universe. It's always "Unlimited under fair use".

If you pay for your water park ticket and they offer unlimited free drinking water fountains, you can't pay for your ticket, call up Nestlé and bring in the water trucks.

Besides the IP poisoning from the casino, ToS violations and so on, just using this much traffic would probably be enough cause for a cancellation (or a forced plan upgrade).

neuracnu ,
@neuracnu@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

I worked for Akamai for 7 years.

This is why, if your CDN infra is core to the operation of your business, you make your systems accommodate multi-CDN integration. Cutting one CDN off shouldn't be significantly difficult, and it comes in handy during contract negotiations. All the major players work this way.

TheDarksteel94 ,

I'd be interested to see if / how Cloudflare will respond to this. Because at this point I'm not 100 percent sure who is in the right.

dependencyinjection ,

Yeah I have no sympathy for a casino and as a software developer I would never work for one, but in the other corner you have a company with too much power.

TheDarksteel94 ,

Even if it wasn't a casino, they could either be bullshitting or just be plainly incompetent. Like, idk them personally, but I wouldn't rule it out lol

solrize , (edited )

HN thread is here and it's on the front page 7 hours old: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40481808

Many mentions made that a significant part of the issue seemed to be Cloudflare IP addresses getting banned in some countries. They wanted the customer to switch to a bring-your-own-IP plan.

Also, the discussion took place over 1 month, not 24 hours.

I think the HN thread is reasonably informative and nuanced. CF didn't do great but it was somewhat a fog of war situation.

goferking0 ,

Yeah this substac just reads as we abused cloudflare then were surprised they didn't take us saying no well.

raspberriesareyummy ,
  1. what is HN? Edit: never mind, answered below: hacker news (ycombinator)
  2. daaamn... I hated cloudflare before for their shitty and non-adblocker-compatible (often not working at all) "I am not a bot" checks, but fuck me are those EVIL motherfuckers....
DarkThoughts ,

Good.

dojan ,
@dojan@lemmy.world avatar

Cloudflare took down our website after trying to force us to pay 120k$ within 24h

Yikes. That sounds bad.

I'm a SysOps engineer at a fairly large online casino.

Okay all my sympathy is gone. Online casinos deserve to die.

That said, my feelings towards economic vampires aside, the way the events unfolded is concerning to say the least. Cloudflare has been racking up evil-corp points quite rapidly in recent months.

Potatos_are_not_friends ,

As a person who works in server hosting (not as devops or IT), I'm often privy to customer interactions. I feel like my company does a really good job at damage control - where if we fuck up, some rep gets on the phone and makes things right. We've eaten costs on behalf of our customers.

But sometimes, you just gotta tell a customer to go fuck themselves.

And those customers, those biggest complainers are often in online gambling, crypto, adult content, or racist shit.

We get DDos'd a lot from it. But I'm glad the company I work for doesn't bow down to garbage companies.

dojan ,
@dojan@lemmy.world avatar

I'm honestly not surprised.

I used to hook up with a guy who was 100% convinced that he could game the system. It had something to do with break frequencies from various services and certain time windows for playing. He won sometimes, but he obviously didn't talk much about his losses. He wasn't a very happy person, and I think gambling offered an easy release.

That's my big issue with gambling. It's a business preying on addicts leaving many in financial ruin, and overall they do nothing for society at large. Here in Sweden it is regulated, but you honestly don't notice it. There are so many internet casinos vanishing and cropping up on an almost daily basis. If you turn on the radio the adverts are like 40% online casinos, 40% sex toy sites, and 20% various services, like tyre shifting, glass repairs, etc.

Jakesvito ,

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Natanael ,

A lot of those exploit EU rules on open markets to dodge proper local licensing (I'm also from Sweden)

dojan ,
@dojan@lemmy.world avatar

That explains why they all seem so samey. E.g. online casinos never have any sort of physical presence like scratch cards or what have you, even though we have plenty of scratch cards.

sudneo ,

No they don't, at least for Sweden. I remember when they regulated the market in Sweden (I was working for a gambling company at the time and I had to run the security & compliance for the Swedish license). There is no such thing as open market for gambling where the market is regulated (Sweden, Denmark, Estonia, not sure if Norway finally regulated).

As far as I know, a handful of companies got regulated at the first round, some failed and could not operate in Sweden (this might mean you actually need to deny access to users from Sweden - since you do KYC you know) for quite some time (before they eventually managed to get the license).

The problem (why the other user mentions all similar sites) is that the big companies (say Kindred group, Betsson) tend to spin up many alternative brands with different looks to attract different customers.

Also, most of the companies that operate in Scandinavia use the Maltese license, but that works only in unregulated markets (Finland, Iceland and Norway for example - unless something changed in the last 3 years). That said, getting a license once you have another is quite simple usually. The Swedish license for example is easier to get than and very similar to the Danish one, so if you operate in Denmark you can just fill in the paperwork and you should be easily able to pick that one up.

sudneo ,

I despise gambling, I don't gamble myself and I consider it a tax on those who don't know math. That said, I worked for a gambling company and I know that different companies target different types of customers. Also they have responsible gambling programs that are more or less serious (some of which might be required by regulations). The company I worked for operated in Scandinavia and was sportsbook heavy (vs casino heavy), and had quite serious measures against suspected addicts (immediate block, calling the person on the phone if there were any signs like long sessions etc., proof of income to set limits proportional to income etc.), because it was considered bad for business. Many companies in general are terrible, and especially those who depend on casino games, where the margins are fixed and the dynamics are more prone to create addiction (available 24/7, quick feedback etc.).

HowManyNimons ,

If it had been a sports betting site OP would have said so. The fact that they said "casino" says it all.

sudneo ,

Many do both, I would say the vast majority. Same regulations and licenses apply, in fact. Simply some companies invest more in casino (which are purchased games from vendors in the vast majority of cases), some invest more in sportsbook. I guess the OP's case is the former, but it's not a very relevant distinction to make.

goferking0 ,

I just wonder how much was left out

dojan ,
@dojan@lemmy.world avatar

That's fair, this is one part of the story, and it's not like screenshots can't be doctored. Any screenshot taken from the web is ridiculously easy to manipulate.

dogsnest ,
@dogsnest@lemmy.world avatar

Key.

Key.

Key.

iopq ,

If it's providing games of skill like online poker, it's actually a very intellectually stimulating game. People have made a ton of instructional videos and many books on the poker variations.

After playing poker professionally I was able to leverage the skills of bankroll management and emotional control to become successful in investing in the stock market.

I held all of my stocks through the entire pandemic to rebound from a loss over multiple years holding tech to a $600,000 profit by buying at the bottom. If I hadn't played poker I probably wouldn't be able to stomach looking at a six digit loss in 2021. I only sold my bonds which I used to buy more stocks at a cheaper price (which was the point of the bond allocation)

dojan ,
@dojan@lemmy.world avatar

I'm really glad for you, that sounds amazing. I don't think you're the rule, though. I think you're the exception. I also feel like it wouldn't be unfeasible to have competitive/e-sports poker while still strictly regulating online casinos.

iopq ,

I think we should keep games of skill and pure slot machine strictly separated

Rekorse ,

Is it really so crazy that if you practice gambling you might end up good at gambling? I dont see any difference between playing the stock market and playing cards for money.

SoleInvictus ,

Stocks are just the rich white man slot machine.

iopq ,

Yes, that's the point, I'm good at combinatorics, probability. These mathematical skills have a lot of carryover

Rekorse ,

Would you advise others that learning through increasingly higher stakes is a good way to practice these skills and apply them to make a living?

I admit I dont have much issue with gambling as recreation/sport, but I dont know its a benefit to society to treat gambling as a profession.

Stock brokers gambling with others money is a whole other thing.

iopq ,

Only to the point that you get bored and do something useful with your new knowledge.

People enter tournaments for all kinds of games and those tournaments have money prizes and entry fees. I think it's unfair to single out poker since it's a game of skill.

It just so happens it doesn't make sense to play without even the smallest stakes. Otherwise the best strategy is to go all in with any hand and try to double up quickly (if the chips are free, there's no downside to doing this)

Even like $2 buy in games are much tighter than play money games

Rekorse ,

Everything in your post seems to give reasons for recreational gambling, and I do agree that the stakes are part of the game, and one with no stakes is markedly different. It does seem though that this is all in service of fair play, and to reward those for requiring they pay to prove they are in good faith.

To me I dont think the potential reward is the point with recreational gambling. You might even give your winnings back in a friendly game were you to find out that the stakes bled out into real life.

However I dont see how all of this applies to gambling as a profession and as a part of society in larger ways such as stock markets and Crypto currency. What's the supposed benefits of that?

I would argue that the professional setting is not recreational at all, and in many cases is abusive, with there seeming to be some intent to disguise how abusive it is to the victim.

iopq ,

Nah, you don't play with stakes that could matter to someone. In my case, our buy-ins in the home game are $28 when converted to dollars and nobody bats an eye at dropping $100

The tiny reward does make it more interesting because you actually care about winning. It's better to do $20 stakes and keep the money than play for $100 stakes and have to give it back because someone was irresponsible with their money

Rekorse ,

Doesn't gambling for a living by definition mean you have to play with stakes that matter?

Honestly if people could only gamble with their own money, I might feel different about it.

iopq ,

They matter in so far as it feels bad to lose. But they shouldn't matter to your family's finances

suction ,

It’s still gambling and getting people addicted.

iopq ,

People get addicted to alcohol and caffeine. Should we can those too?

suction , (edited )

[Thread, post or comment was deleted by the moderator]

    •
    coolkicks ,

    I used to be in credit risk for a very large stock market company.

    Calling the bottom of the market is the same as betting big and getting 21 in blackjack.

    Super cool when it happens, but not skill. The number of grown men I had to hear crying because they were dollar cost averaging down to the bottom until they went broke still disturbs me.

    I’m happy this worked for you, but it was not skill.

    iopq ,

    You can't go broke with 1x leverage, and I bought $AMD all the way down from $100 to $70

    If it went to $50 I wouldn't go broke, if it went $1 I wouldn't go broke. I just would have missed a bigger opportunity

    chiisana ,
    @chiisana@lemmy.chiisana.net avatar

    If it goes from $100 to $1, there’s not much left to go before bankruptcy/delisting. Say hello to swaths of BBBY bag holders… oh wait, no bags left there!

    iopq ,

    It went to $2 in like 2013, close to bankruptcy. But it didn't go bankrupt, and that's all I'm betting on. My point is you don't need to care about where the bottom is as long as you're buying the dip.

    Especially if you are just buying $VTI which won't go to $1 any time soon.

    x4740N ,
    @x4740N@lemmy.world avatar

    Yeah pretty much all red flags from cloud flare

    Can't wait for this to become a louis rossman video

    drdabbles ,
    @drdabbles@lemmy.world avatar

    Not a huge surprise, they've got a long history of doing all kinds of scumbag shit. Nobody should be surprised when the leopard eats their face.

    Sanctus ,
    @Sanctus@lemmy.world avatar

    You think we're hitting that point where line go up must wreck lives?

    catloaf ,

    We hit that point centuries ago, if not millennia.

    catalog3115 ,

    Does this mean hackernews & cloudflare are colluding together?

    tedu ,

    A simpler explanation is that users are tired of everybody with a customer support issue running to daddy HN and making a big fuss trying to get their way.

    moonpiedumplings ,

    After Twitter went to shit, where else do customers have to go for customer support like this?

    Admittedly, I didn't read the article, but I have seen plenty of other cases woth cloudfare or other big providers where people have only been able to set things right by kicking up a fuss on social media --- like that recent one with amazon aws.

    twei ,

    I didn't read the article

    Don't worry, neither did anyone else in this thread

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