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My daughter lost her social studies essay because LibreOffice doesn't have autosave on automatically.

This is about the most recent version of LibreOffice on Windows 10. I can't speak for other versions.

My daughter worked hard on her social studies essay. I type things in for her because she’s a really bad typist, but she tells me what to write… but I didn’t remember to manually save her social studies essay yesterday, and for some reason the ThinkPad rebooted, LibreOffice crashed and we lost the whole thing... because autosave was not automatically on when I installed it.

No, recovery didn't work. We just got a blank file.

I rewrote it for her based on the information we had and what I remembered and tried to make it sound like what a 13-year-old would write because it was basically my fault and she did do the work. I did have her sit with me as I wrote it in case she didn’t like something I wrote, but it was sort of cheating. I'm okay with that cheating since I know she worked hard on it.

First, though, I went into the settings and turned on autosave.

I like LibreOffice, but why the hell is that not on automatically? Honestly, I don't really understand why someone wouldn't want their documents autosaved, but I'm pretty sure most people would want that.

This isn't fucking 1993. I shouldn't have to remember to save a document anymore and it shouldn't be lost forever because of it.

Like I said, I like LibreOffice. I don't really want to trust documents to Microsoft or Google. But this was really annoying.

HikingVet ,

Thank you for posting this. I hadn't run into this problem, and now I won't.

Diabolo96 ,

Yeah, foss softwares are full of these 'design flaws' for some reason. Take for exemple the 'single click to open files' that was the default on KDE for so long despite everyone reverting it back to double click.

eager_eagle ,
@eager_eagle@lemmy.world avatar

despite everyone reverting it back to double click

Says who? I'm still using single click and won't go back. This is a very different choice than having autosave on by default.

Primarily0617 ,

it is and it isn't

they're both bad UX, which FOSS is generally pretty bad at, probably because there's not as much overlap between people who who are really into FOSS and people who are really into UX

linux-centric communities also tend to be plagued by elitism, which i expect stifles a lot of this kind of thing before proper conversations can take root

eager_eagle ,
@eager_eagle@lemmy.world avatar

it is and it isn’t

It is. Single/double click behavior is a matter of preference. Autosave on is a measure to mitigate risk. Very different "UX" choices.

Edit: just adding context that the clicking behavior on executables is defined by another setting on Dolphin.

Aatube ,
@Aatube@kbin.social avatar

And single click drastically increases the risk of running some sketchy executable just because you selected it. Every desktop I've used doesn't do that.

eager_eagle ,
@eager_eagle@lemmy.world avatar

It doesn't, that's another setting. By default Dolphin asks confirmation before running anything with mouse clicks. Also you can double click just as impulsively as single clicking, so it wouldn't even be a good safeguard.

Aatube ,
@Aatube@kbin.social avatar

Well then, you also have large documents or incriminating photos you may not intend to open.

Primarily0617 ,

Single/double click behavior is a matter of preference.

And defaulting to the preference that most people prefer or are used to is a matter of UX.

Which is why I say they're both UX decisions.

eager_eagle ,
@eager_eagle@lemmy.world avatar

Which is why I say they’re both UX decisions.

yet very different - binning them into the same category is not helpful. Single click as default is ok, autosave off as default is probably not.

Primarily0617 ,

yet very different

which is why my first words to you were "it is and it isn't"

binning them into the same category is not helpful

both are caused by people in the foss space not paying enough attention to ux

increased attention to ux could solve both

personally i think categorising all work solely through the lens of severity is unhelpful

eager_eagle ,
@eager_eagle@lemmy.world avatar

risk mitigation definitely comes before preference, whether you call them both UX or not

Primarily0617 ,

or i could argue that an issue 90% of people will run into is a higher priority than one 2% of people will run into

or i could argue than the risk of accidentally opening something you didn't want to is higher than the risk of losing unsaved work

the reason foss sucks when it comes to ux is this attitude of insisting that ux problems are somehow some "other" category of problem, rather than an engineering constraint that needs to be designed around like every other one

case in point, for some reason you're still refusing to acknowledge that they're both ux problems. and if you do, your original reply ceases to even make sense.

eager_eagle ,
@eager_eagle@lemmy.world avatar

you’re still refusing to acknowledge that they’re both ux problems

I'm not - I'm saying calling them both UX problems is unhelpful when one is clearly more important than the other. In fact, single clicks by default does not even rank as a "UX problem", it's preference and habit.

If you're unable to differentiate what's an actual problem from what's mere user preference, you're no better at judging what's worth putitng time into than the open source contributors you're pointing at.

Primarily0617 ,

if you aren't refusing to acknowledge they're ux problems, you're saying it's unhelpful to call them what they are, which is obviously nonsense

and again, sane defaults are ux

eager_eagle ,
@eager_eagle@lemmy.world avatar

Naming something accurately does not make the observation helpful. You're the one writing nonsense.

Primarily0617 ,

if you're just going to take us back in circles again this discussion is a bit pointless, isn't it?

leftzero ,

Auto save is extremely dangerous and should be off by default. Computers should never do things, especially with important documents, without the user telling them to. If the user wants to save the file, they'll tell the computer to save the file. If they don't tell the computer to save the file, they clearly don't want the file saved (if they do want it saved and expect the computer to do it for them without being told to, they shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a computer, sharp objects, or open flames, as they clearly could be a danger to themselves and others).

eager_eagle ,
@eager_eagle@lemmy.world avatar

Computers should never do things, especially with important documents, without the user telling them to

L take. Computers have always done thousands of things in the background. Autosave does not mean "overwrite the original file".

leftzero ,

First thing I do when using a new Windows computer is turn single click back on. Well, either that or show file extensions.

westyvw ,

Single click is fantastic. I don't understand why anyone would do it differently. Everything on the web is single click. Task bar items are single click. Menu items are single click.

KDE got single click right when Microsoft didn't.

So why would I not want a single unified experience? I don't accidently open anything, that is just nonsense.

eager_eagle ,
@eager_eagle@lemmy.world avatar

I can't recommend OnlyOffice enough. I just did a test repeatedly killing the application and the document is recovered with the default settings.

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/799071a7-f259-4a5c-be27-ac0b7711663d.png

FlyingSquid OP ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

I'll check it out. Thanks!

Diplomjodler ,

Us older folks automatically hit save every few minutes. But not saving days worth of work is asking for trouble.

eager_eagle ,
@eager_eagle@lemmy.world avatar

I'm feeling old right now, thx

I even impulsively hit Ctrl+S when writing comments on Lemmy once in a while

negativenull ,
@negativenull@lemmy.world avatar

You have to hit Ctrl+S 3 or 4 times in a row, just in case too.

bigkahuna1986 ,

This is how I play Pokemon yellow. Save game? Better save again just in case.

LazaroFilm ,
@LazaroFilm@lemmy.world avatar

I sometimes ctrl+S on my web browser.

bigMouthCommie ,
@bigMouthCommie@kolektiva.social avatar

me too, but it's beacuse that's the emacs keybinding for incremental search

intensely_human ,

So did you want this as an .htm archive or what)

metacolon ,
@metacolon@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

I tend to hit ESC :w

FlyingSquid OP ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

I am an older folk. I grew up with an Apple II. I just have gotten used to autosave being on automatically in pretty much every word processor I've used since probably the mid-1990s. I just can't imagine why they decided to not have it on when you install it.

Diplomjodler ,

Never assume something works until you've verified it. And even then assume it'll break some time

ilinamorato ,

I mean, yes, but also it's a fair assumption to make that autosave would either be on or the fact that it was off would be communicated.

intensely_human ,

A fair assumption maybe, but not a safe one.

BeardedBlaze ,
@BeardedBlaze@lemmy.world avatar

What word processors? Even Microsoft office doesn't have autosave on by default unless you're working off of One Drive/Share Point online.

Why would you switch to different software and assume it works the same as another?

subtext ,

Yep, my thoughts exactly… my company doesn’t want us to use OneDrive because of some security fears, so none of our work has autosave. Just because it’s 2024 doesn’t mean everything has autosave. Even working in a browser doesn’t always have autosave, I use some online programs daily that you have to remember to Ctrl + S.

ericisshort ,

I think your memory might be failing on this, because we’re about the same age and autosave wasn’t really a common feature in the 90s. MacOS didn’t introduce autosave until OSX Lion in 2010, and Microsoft’s auto-recover (which was their only feature even close to autosave until office365) wasn’t introduced until the 2000s and didn’t work properly until 2007.

FlyingSquid OP ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Fair. I could very well be misremembering. I don't have the greatest memory.

ericisshort ,

It happens to me more and more these days as well.

ShepherdPie ,

I don't have the greatest memory.

You should have hit Ctrl + S more throughout life.

Diplomjodler ,

If only it were that easy.

intensely_human ,

It does for me, but I’m autistic.

I can literally decide “I’m gonna remember this thing” and then push it into my brain in a way that I know it’ll be there forever.

Neato ,
@Neato@ttrpg.network avatar

Agreed. It's standard practice now. At the very least LibreOffice should ask you on document creation if you want it on.

There's no reason to create the extra work of the past unless you are specifically making a nostalgia product.

braxy29 ,

the only time i ever lost a paper/document (at 13, for social studies), was on an apple IIc. then i rewrote it. i cried A LOT.

it has never happened since, and writing is a significant part of my job. i learned the hard way.

CosmicCleric ,
@CosmicCleric@lemmy.world avatar

I just can’t imagine why they decided to not have it on when you install it.

Different generational audiences expect different UX about their software, as this topic has aptly shown.

I'm sure there's a bunch of people who would be pissed off at the fact that they only want to control when a save happens (by default), and not the app.

Personally I would expect it to be on automatically (normal modern UX), but also after I've written big blocks of very important text I'd do a manual save, as I don't know where in the interval cycle between automatic saves I would be at (when's the next autosave happening). Best of both worlds, basically.

Finally, only because I'm talking to you right now, as far as you and your child goes, only you as their parent knows what's best for them.

Take heart that if you're trying, you're already halfway there, as many parents don't even bother.

And don't take the negative downloading you're getting on this topic as a criticism of your parenting skills, aholes on the Internet trying to keep the world exactly how they expect it to be from way back when, and are so hung up on responsibility to a fault, are not the best sources for knowledge on how well or poorly you're doing as a parent.

I am an older folk. I grew up with an Apple II.

I as well. Still have fun memories of loading Choplifter into my Apple via a cassette tape recorder.

FlyingSquid OP ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Thanks much.

Also, I'm going to have to go play Choplifter now!

assembly ,

I still do this regularly while using Google docs even though I don’t think it has any effect.

SpaceNoodle ,

"Us" don't do anything, but we do.

Chainweasel ,

I was going to say, it was absolutely drilled into our heads to save after every paragraph.
My high school teacher would occasionally flip the breaker for the computers in the school computer lab just to give those of us with bad saving habits a hard reminder.

intensely_human ,

Your teacher would probably get raked over the coals for traumatizing the kids if she did that now

Blooper ,

Meh, only the Libreoffice kids

IWantToFuckSpez ,

Nah more for corrupting some of the computers storage drives.

rottingleaf ,

I'm 28, do that too. Though maybe that's what you meant by older.

Diplomjodler ,

No, whippersnapper, that's not what I meant ;)

name_NULL111653 ,

Young folk who have lost hours of progress in robotics programming projects too... Once is enough to learn your lesson. The inevitable second time is traumatizing. By the third time, you hit Ctrl+s five times after every paragraph.

intensely_human ,

I don’t think OP’s kid is gonna learn the lesson here. Sounds like Dad was handling the typing for her, and then when things screw up he’s blaming others for it. Not a good environment for a kid to learn in.

moon ,

That was my sense too. OP isn't letting his kid learn the hard lessons for themselves.

Also what kind of an excuse is it to say she sucks at typing? With practice she will improve, so let her do her own homework

leftzero ,

And “save as” every few times (or every time if the document is important).

I lost a lot of work hours once because I was using a program that saved a backup copy every time you saved (so that you'd always be able to recover the previous version), and the damn thing crashed while saving, thus corrupting both the save file and the backup. Never. Again. Hard drive space is less expensive than my time and what's left of my mental health.

intensely_human ,

I worked as a kitchen designer and for each customer’s meeting I’d made a new file with everything the same except the date in the filename. So worst case I’d lose a day’s work.

cholesterol ,

If only computers could automate repetitive tasks. Oh, well.

intensely_human ,

If only people understood the tradeoffs with automation

JDubbleu ,

Auto save with Google Docs style snapshots has so little overhead I'd hardly consider it a trade-off. We have insane amounts of disk storage and extremely reliable non-volatile memory. The only reason against it that I can conceive of is confidential data you don't ever want to exist outside of volatile memory.

All modern word processors use auto save and it kinda blows my mind libre does not do this.

Kusimulkku ,

They can. Just have to turn the autosave on. Better to manually save still just in case

FrostKing ,

I'm barely an adult and I do this. I think it's less your age, and more the type of programs you tend to use—ei. programs where you may not want things auto saved, for me game engine, but there's plenty of examples.

Emerald ,

Few minutes? For me its every few seconds

I_Am_Jacks_____ ,

I had a similar problem. I had made a bunch of changes to a document and just closed LibreOffice Calc thinking it would prompt me to save it. It did not. It just exited and discarded my changes. I went in that day and turned on AutoSave.

Aatube ,
@Aatube@kbin.social avatar

Weird, it prompts for me

Lath ,

First of all, as a time honored tradition it is customary to say this: Never, ever trust an autosave. Manual saves and backup, always.

With that out of the way, yeah, libre office is kinda bad at the regular user stuff. If you aren't a fiddler who goes through options first and sets their own personal preferences, a bad time will be had.

Also, apparently crashes might reset the auto save tick depending on the version used, so check twice if it happens again just to make sure.

Ps: Never had an issue with it personally, but it's hit or miss with its users.

FlyingSquid OP ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Also, apparently crashes might reset the auto save tick depending on the version used, so check twice if it happens again just to make sure.

Oh just fucking great. Thanks for telling me that. I think I might just try a different office suite.

Aatube ,
@Aatube@kbin.social avatar

Newer versions don't have the issue.

Cosmonaut_Collin ,
@Cosmonaut_Collin@lemmy.world avatar

You can always try OpenOffice if libre office isn't working out for you. It has all the same suite options as libre office. I think it has auto save by default. I haven't used it in a while though.

rottingleaf ,

For smaller docs try Abiword. If you are a KDE user, Calligra is nice.

wjrii ,
@wjrii@kbin.social avatar

Abiword is okay for now, I guess, but it's basically a zombie, waiting for dependencies to break:
https://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.php?t=412196

rottingleaf ,

Maybe we'll see orgmode format take the place in the sun it deserves

Nougat ,

Unpopular opinion: Word, Excel, and Powerpoint are free on the web. Yes, you need a Microsoft account. Would it be ideal to use a FOSS product? Maybe. But schools and workplaces have a preference for Microsoft Office, so the specific skills in that office suite are going to more easily translate to real world situations, and there will be a lower chance of compatibility issues when sharing documents with other people or organizations, in either direction.

originalucifer ,
@originalucifer@moist.catsweat.com avatar

i wouldnt push excel hard here on the web. its still pretty fragile/full of incompatibilities to the point i cant use it in my day to day, i have to open the local application.

Nougat ,

That’s fair, but it stands to reason that if a Microsoft web product isn’t super compatible with its own desktop product, a third party would be less so.

subtext ,

They’re free on desktop as well. Microsoft would so much rather you learn and love their tools that they’re happy to let you use them for free because it means you’re going to keep using them as an adult / professional / senior. My parents will never leave Excel / Word / Outlook because it’s what they know and love and they’re happy to pay for it in perpetuity.

https://github.com/massgravel/Microsoft-Activation-Scripts

rainynight65 ,

First of all, as a time honored tradition it is customary to say this: Never, ever trust an autosave.

I've worked in IT and software development for 25 years, and this is literally the first time I hear someone say this, never mind call it a 'tradition' to say it.

Lath ,

You worked in IT, not with IT. You made the bugs, but didn't experience them.
Your tradition is having users calling you for the dumbest of things and everyone you know calling you to fix their electronics.
We are not the same.

rainynight65 ,

I don't know what you're driving at, but whatever you think you know about what I've done and what I've seen, it's not nearly as much as you think you know. I work with IT, with software as much as I work in those fields. I experience bugs as much as anyone. I've seen the contempt many software devs and professionals have for regular, non-technical users so many times, it manifests in their attitudes, their documentation, their responses to GitHub tickets, their UX decisions.

I don't care if we are the same or not. Don't make assumptions you can't corroborate.

Lath ,

You are correct. And yet, I feel I must send a "whatever you think you know about what I’ve done and what I’ve seen, it’s not nearly as much as you think you know" right back at you, random internet acquaintance.

rainynight65 ,

I didn't make any assumptions about what you know or do, aside from what you think you know about me.

HarriPotero ,
@HarriPotero@lemmy.world avatar

On the other hand.. consider if your cat had walked over the keyboard before it rebooted and replaced it all with hhhhgggggggggggggggggggghgf before it auto saved and replaced the document. Would you still be an advocate for auto save?

It sucks to lose work, but this is clearly a user error.

FlyingSquid OP ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

I don't have a cat and we did this out at a cafe, so yes, I would still be an advocate for it. I think that most people do not have that issue even if they have a cat.

JaxNakamura ,

Can confirm, have a cat and don't have that issue. Because I lock the screen when leaving the machine unattended.

intensely_human ,

ThE sCrEeN sHoULd AuToMaTiCaLly LoCk

qwertyqwertyqwerty ,

UXD would state that this is a software design issue, and not user error. The software should be designed with crashes and "lost" user data in mind.

narc0tic_bird ,
@narc0tic_bird@lemm.ee avatar

That is true. I could've sworn LibreOffice had a recovery mechanism similar to MS Office after a crash.

JaxNakamura ,

Even LibreOffice can only recover what has been saved. And if autosave is off, there might be less to recover than desirable. Again, that's a UXD problem.

TheDarksteel94 ,

To be fair, you could just delete the faulty part or click on Undo, and just save again.

Nacktmull , (edited )
@Nacktmull@lemmy.world avatar

Auto-save can usually create a new save with a timestamp, every time it saves. It´s called incremental auto-saves.

intensely_human ,

I’ve never seen this feature

biscuitswalrus ,

This is an insane scenario: my software design decision is, despite recovery mechanisms like previous versions, file history, and undo mechanisms, I'm afraid if a cat uses a keyboard I'll accidentally save changes I don't want to a word document.

Lol. The only user error was choosing libre office instead of a user friendly software stack that has reasonable defaults and r recovery mechanisms.

intensely_human ,

Yup. The fear is input that wasn’t intended to be saved, being saved.

Your inability to comprehend the scenario doesn’t erase it.

biscuitswalrus ,

You realise if it's saved you can now use features that are built into the software, that get saved, like using 'track changes' to accept or discard edits granually. You have file system level version control to choose previous versions, you have an undo feature built in. Three different tools to use.

westyvw ,

Libre office is fine. You have no need to bash it. And it does have recovery files, this example is.... odd.

JaxNakamura ,

That's why I lock my machine before walking away. That's <windows key> + L for those who don't know.

intensely_human ,

Command-option-Q on mac

A_Very_Big_Fan ,

It sucks to lose work, but this is clearly a user error.

Didn't wanna say it but yeah, 100%.

Also I was kinda suspicious of the simultaneous claim that the PC randomly restarted and LO crashed. And there's no recovery file. But that's probably just me. For all the faults Windows has, failing to catch programs with unsaved work when restarting isn't one of them I've ever experienced.

jdnewmil ,

While I can understand you wanting autosave on in your situation, I much prefer autosave off because I often open files to see what is in them and do not want to automatically modify them just because I accidentally hit a key and delete it. Automatically changing stuff is a choice you should have to make, not a feature that I have to race to disable.

BlueEther ,
@BlueEther@no.lastname.nz avatar

I work with 365 and have to create docs from yesterday's version (or last weeks etc) all the time. Auto save can be a real pain in the arse.

Turn it off, save as <yyyy-mm-dd-DocName>, oh hell auto save is back on...

IHawkMike ,

Just mark it as final then. This whole thread is infuriating. People working themselves into pretzels with their misguided reasons for not wanting auto-save when they really just don't know to use the software.

OP is right. I use Office 365 and haven't lost work on a document in over 10 years. Auto-save absolutely should be the default.

SkippingRelax ,

Or not trusting autosave because they lost a document once in the 80s when autosave didn't exist, and now they tell everyone to compulsively press ctrl-s because software can be trusted enough to drive a car, but not save a file every minute or so.
Bonus point when they introduce themselves as I'm a software developer..

intensely_human ,

Yeah so maybe when we trust software to drive cars, then we can talk about trusting autosave.

leftzero , (edited )

Exactly. I don't want my computer doing things without me telling it to. If I want it to save the file I will tell it to save the file. If I don't tell it to save the file, I most definitely don't want it to save it behind my back. Auto save is an anti-pattern, especially if it overwrites your manual save files.

(Saving an independent recovery file, preferably including undo and redo history, might come in handy in case of crashes, sure, but it should be optional and never on by default, out of privacy concerns; other users might use the computer, and it's safer to assume that the previous user might not want others to see the documents they had open last time.)

intensely_human ,

What freaks me out is when I open a file, make no changes, go to close it, and I get “Do you want to save the changes you made?”

cathyk ,
@cathyk@lemmy.world avatar

Yes. Like many here, I’ve learned to hit save A LOT. But I also want to decide when the time is right. Whether I’m writing a paper, coding, photo retouching, whatever, I flail around and experiment while working. I want to lock in my changes when I’m happy with the progress. If something goes awry I’d rather resume at the last manual save than some other weird thing I did afterwards.

slazer2au ,

This is why I do all my drafts in n++

New 12 and new 6 have savede quite a few times.

Evkob ,
@Evkob@lemmy.ca avatar

I type things in for her because she’s a really bad typist, but she tells me what to write…

At the risk of being that asshole who tells a parent how to raise their child based off a single post online, how do you expect her to become a better typist if you do it for her? She's 13, she's probably not gonna be that good at anything, she's at the age where she's supposed to be learning things (and that includes skills like typing).

Maybe I'm just projecting my own parents' shortcomings onto you, but they often just did things for me instead of helping me learn. I think I would be a better, more well-rounded human today if they had pushed me to be a bit more independent. I'm sure you're doing this out of love for your daughter, but I think you might not be doing her any favours by doing a portion of the work yourself. If she decides to pursue post-secondary education, are you still going to type her essays for her? What about if she gets a job that involves typing?

FlyingSquid OP ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

At the risk of being that asshole who tells a parent how to raise their child based off a single post online, how do you expect her to become a better typist if you do it for her?

By letting her do it when it isn't a long essay.

HatchetHaro ,
@HatchetHaro@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

I'd argue that you should let her type, even on a long essay. There's no shortcut to learning how to type, and unless the essay is on a tight deadline, depriving her of the learning opportunity will only delay this crucial ability.

If you're afraid that she will not be able to focus on the essay contents while typing, she can try drafting the essay up with pen on paper first.

Mistic , (edited )

In my experience, the longer you type, the faster you get at typing.

That's like getting into the rhythm. If you do it a little and then stop, then you never become proficient as you never got into that flow.

Try learning a guitar by pulling a few strings a day. Try learning to read in a different language by reading a few letters each time. Try running by taking a few steps.

Doesn't it sound ridiculous?

Have you ever tried learning a different language? You don't become proficient by reading one sentence, then stopping and then another one. You do it by struggling through many, and the more you do it, the faster you learn.

Note, I'm not writing this because "boohoo, bad parenting." It's the first essay, who cares. (although her being 13 does make me raise a brow. I'd expect it with a 7 y.o., but 13? w/e, you do you). I just think you have a misunderstanding in how learning core-level skills work. Continuous repetition is the key.

Another glaring example is how toddlers learn languages. In a span of a couple of years, they are capable of learning a language to native level with absolutely no prior knowledge, just by listening and trying to repeat the sounds day in and day out. Just think about it.

rudyharrelson , (edited )
@rudyharrelson@kbin.social avatar

I think OP has explained that he does let her type when it's a shorter document. Which I think is perfectly reasonable at this age.

I couldn't type very well until I took a dedicated typing class at school when I was 13. By the end of the semester, I was faster than 95% of all typists worldwide. Maybe OP's kid might be interested in a class like that next year. And if not, she'll still get better over time even if she isn't typing these long essays right now.

Basically, give her (and OP) a break. They're doing fine.

Edit: also, I don't think you're an asshole for offering your input. Nothing wrong with that. It just comes off as a bit overly judgemental given OP is guilty of... occasionally typing his daughter's longer essays to save time (a finite resource that any parent has a limited quantity of).

intensely_human ,

What OP is guilty of is of losing his daughter’s essay.

Just one of the many, many, many drawbacks to having your parents do your homework for you.

rudyharrelson ,
@rudyharrelson@kbin.social avatar

OP definitely didn't "do the homework" for the kid based on the description of events. You are wildly exaggerating if you are suggesting typing the essay that the kid dictated is tantamount to doing the homework for them.

intensely_human ,

My mom used to do things for me instead of letting me learn, but only the things it would be painful for me to learn, because she couldn’t handle seeing me suffer.

She died when I was 26 years old, and it was only then that I finally started to develop some of the necessary life skills I should have been learning when I was a teenager.

Being too soft on kids is cruel because the adult pays for it so hard.

braxy29 ,

if i could parent my oldest kid again, i would let him struggle more and fail more.

the inevitable rude awakening was ROUGH.

edit - grammar

thantik ,

It shouldn't just have autosave on automatically, it should push git commits with an AI generated summary that can be rolled back to at will...

driving_crooner ,
@driving_crooner@lemmy.eco.br avatar

Some weeks ago I wrote my probabilities homework on LaTeX, every couple of lines I press F5 to compile and see how it was looking. I was pretty sure that compiling automatically saved the project, but I was wrong and lost and entire night of LaTeX work. Now I know that I need to manually save first, after that compiling save the project and the compiled pdf when F5.

BlueEther ,
@BlueEther@no.lastname.nz avatar

I suspect losing a LaTeX doc hurt more than a 'word' doc

Danitos ,

I think it depends. In my case, I write faster in LaTeX as the formatting is done a lot quicker. Just need to find one template I've already used and is aproppiate for the ocassion.

Although being able to take a screenshot and paste it is a huge bonus and time saver in LibreOffice when taking notes in real time.

BlueEther ,
@BlueEther@no.lastname.nz avatar

It has been a few years (shit near 15 years) since I used LaTex, and I didn't use it that often so it wasn't ingrained. But even then it was much easier than trying to get publisher for format things

driving_crooner ,
@driving_crooner@lemmy.eco.br avatar

At least in LaTeX I'm not losing any "original toughs", I first do the exercises on paper and pen and then format it on latex to send to my professor, but I'm not really used to it, so the writing process involve a lot of looking on internet how to do things.

Showroom7561 ,

FYI: It does have the option to save automatically:

https://lemmy.ca/pictrs/image/14043484-1174-4d43-898d-bc24f9b7fcb5.jpeg

FlyingSquid OP ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Thanks, that's what I turned on. My problem was it wasn't on already.

Showroom7561 ,

You are right. Only autorecovery was on by default, but I had to manually enable automatic saving.

RememberTheApollo ,

If you’re on a Windows PC oftentimes you can go to the user temp folder and find the working document there. %temp% in file explorer.

You might have to do a little digging to find out what/where it is, sometimes they’re nice and obvious in a folder named for the app creating it, sometimes it’s a string of nonsensical alphanumeric characters.

Also: You can go to the “Tools” followed by “Options” then go to “LibreOffice” and click on “Path”, temp and backup files are stored at the location listed there, too.

Either way, I highly, highly suggest you dig around for the lost doc in that folder. It’s saved my butt a couple times when I forgot to save.

FlyingSquid OP ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Thank you for the help!

RememberTheApollo ,

Good luck.

Evotech ,

Side note : You say she's a bad typist so you type it for her. But how exactly is she going to learn how to type then?

Maybe just let her do things poorly and learn

FlyingSquid OP ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

As I told someone else, I let her do it when it isn't a long essay. With an essay, it would literally take hours.

electric ,

Just want to say, what a good parent for actually giving your child a hand in school work. The work load has become so insane for children.

FlyingSquid OP ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Thank you, although in my case, it's required. My daughter is in online school. It's a public school run by the state, not a private school, so she has real classes with real licensed teachers via live videoconference and the assignments are graded by the teachers. They require a parent to be a 'learning coach.' Mostly to keep the kid on track.

But I also know my daughter has very little patience for bullshit, as I did I when I was her age, so when they say things like "to learn about biological cells, draw a picture of an imaginary factory and show the different parts of the factory and label how they work" (an actual assignment) and it isn't being graded, it's just busywork, I tell her we can skip it. I wish I had someone who let me skip that nonsense. Like you said, the workload, or in this case the expected workload is insane. And most of it isn't conducive to learning. Drawing an imaginary factory- and they wanted kids to do this before teaching them the parts of the cell- isn't going to help you learn what mitochondria are.

Meanwhile, she's getting better grades than she did when she was in public school. It's working out pretty well.

electric ,

Oh that sounds like a much better situation. I only found out public online schools were an option in my second to last year of high school, when the bullshit work load had already been waning. Doing it mostly online now for college and it's so much less stressful. Wish you both luck. 🤞

wjrii ,
@wjrii@kbin.social avatar

Drawing an imaginary factory- and they wanted kids to do this before teaching them the parts of the cell- isn’t going to help you learn what mitochondria are.

That sounds like it's an exercise meant to get the kids thinking about a multi-faceted system existing inside a single structure, with parts that are interconnected but distinct, and will lead into a common metaphor teachers use to teach about biological cells. Not being graded means they're not judging the kids on what they know or don't, but want to evaluate where they are with this sort of thinking and figure out what they will focus on. Also, your kid may be smart and already know where they're going with this, but others in the class may not. If she does, she could probably knock that out in fifteen minutes. Even if you decide that she doesn't need to do it, I don't think it's stupid busy work, at least not necessarily.

Some teachers are dumb; we need too many of them and pay them too little for each and every one to be a superstar. The ones coming up with curricula and lesson plans usually aren't, though.

Contramuffin ,

As a side note, typing well isn't something that can easily be learned by simply typing more. If her typing is a concern (and it may well be since she'll be typing much more in college), it may be helpful to search for some typing courses. My impression is that there are some free online ones, but I don't remember any off the top of my head.

wjrii ,
@wjrii@kbin.social avatar

I never truly learned to type, though I had a few weeks instruction in school, and did a few levels of Mario Teaches Typing when I was a kid. None of it really stuck, and typing remains an exercise in hand-eye coordination for me. I topped out at around 70-80 WPM if I'm composing rather than copying, but that's been good enough for a lifetime of office jobs, and certainly for writing school essays. There is definitely a lower ceiling if you don't get proper instruction, but simple practice is still helpful.

Contramuffin ,

Perhaps, but that's a relatively spectacular case. If my memory serves me correctly, the average typing speed is around 40 wpm. And sure, that kind of speed can get the job done but it definitely won't be a good time. My elementary school was pretty forward-thinking in this respect. They signed us up for computer literacy and typing courses that would last for multiple years that we would do in computer class. I think everyone in my class was hitting at least 50 wpm by middle school. I was typing a solid 70 wpm.

Anyways, I think there are certain aspects of typing where having guidance could really help. I know people who chicken-peck because that's just how they've always done it and they've never broken that habit.

jadedwench ,

The only way I learned how to type growing up was from instant messaging my friends. All of those ridiculous typing programs didn't help. One random thing that might help is a different keyboard, or, different profile keycaps!

I love me some mechanical keyboards and I like the tactile feedback from "brown" switches. The last one I built I found out about the wonderful world of keycaps, specifically keycap profiles. I fell in love with MT3s as they are a little "cupped". My fingers sort of fall into the scoops and get enough tactile feedback to stay on the key and they just feel nice. I haven't looked at cheaper membrane keyboards in years, but I remember you could pull off the keycaps and put different ones on those, but I have no idea how they are now.

If you are interested in mechanical keyboards, you can usually buy a sample kit that has all of the different switches and you may be able to find something similar for keycaps.

I guess what I am trying to say is a different keyboard, or even keycaps, may help her learn. Though I do realize that this stuff is expensive too. As someone who is on a keyboard everyday, it became a tool to invest in.

https://drop.com/buy/drop-mito-mt3-cyber-custom-keycap-set

wjrii ,
@wjrii@kbin.social avatar

No need to go crazy with the first one. That first step from laptop keyboard or membrane pack-in is the biggest jump you'll ever make in typing experience. a brown-switch gamer board with the RBG turned off and some cheap Amazon "CSA" style keycaps might be all you'd ever need. Of course, even that type of thinking can lead to certain... rabbit holes.

Tja ,

Are you going to type her emails and reports when she goes to work some day?

FlyingSquid OP ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

No?

Tja ,

Only the long ones?

FlyingSquid OP ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Do you think maybe it might be better, if she is going to write an essay at her age, for her to think about what she is going to say and put it in a comprehensible and logical way than slowly typing things out letter by letter so that each sentence takes over a minute and she can work on her typing skills in other ways which require less creative thought?

CyanFen ,

No. All the other kids in her class are typing their own essays. Why isn't she?

FlyingSquid OP ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Which other kids would those be? She's in online school.

And, as I said to the other person, feel free to do what you want with your own kids, but I feel that when my child is writing one of the first essays she's ever written, her ability to think about it critically is, in my opinion, far more important to her education than hunting and pecking on a keyboard for hours rather than think about it.

CyanFen ,

Ohh sorry, surely your daughter is the only child enrolled at the online school.

FlyingSquid OP ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Care to respond to the rest of my post?

rudyharrelson ,
@rudyharrelson@kbin.social avatar

I don't know how so many snarky comments are getting upvoted here. Barely an ounce of empathy to be found in this entire comment section.

It isn't hard to understand why you'd focus on the content of the essay rather than the mechanical process of typing it out. Clearly you're letting her type shorter things, so she's gonna get better over time even if you type for her on these longer essays for the moment.

Sorry you lost the essay. But I'll look on the bright side and say it sounds like you're doing a fine job working with your kid on their homework, and ideally this is just a growing pain as you use FOSS in the course of their education. I use LibreOffice too and am sometimes similarly frustrated at unintuitive or unexpected design choices.

FlyingSquid OP ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Thank you, I appreciate the comment. And yeah, she will get better over time. This is one of the first essays she's ever had to come up with and I think the first where she's had very little in the way of detailed instruction.

intensely_human ,

I think that if writing takes a lot of effort it naturally makes people think more about what they’re going to write.

FlyingSquid OP ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

That's a very neurotypical way of looking at the world.

usualsuspect191 ,

With an essay, it would literally take hours.

Ignoring that this would get faster with the practise of typing it themselves:

How quickly are people writing essays these days? I'm a decently fast typer and it always took me a couple of hours to write a whole essay at that age. Once I was a few years older and was diligent in drafting a really good outline first I'd maybe get it to under a hour at the computer, but the speed of typing was never the bottleneck.

FlyingSquid OP ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Again, it can take her a full minute to type a sentence. She is an incredibly slow typist. This is really the first big essay she's ever had to write and I wanted her to think about what she wanted to say, not hunt and peck for ages.

Look, maybe you don't have kids. Maybe your kids are good typists. My kid has just started down this road of writing real essays and I have decided that typing speed is far less important than critical thinking when it comes to her education. You are free to make your own parenting decisions, but I would appreciate you not questioning mine, especially when you are not able to see the full picture when you don't actually know either me or my child.

fmstrat ,

While I won't debate your decision, please be sure that 1. You recognize how rediculously important learning to type properly is for today's kids, and 2. That she may not want to learn, and is slow because of it. She may need a reward system, and a defined set time to learn. Good luck, and I hope it goes well for you.

intensely_human ,

Critical thinking is a high level skill. High level skills must be built on top of low level skills, and people learn thing better when they write themselves. The mechanics of putting the words to paper are an important part of the WRITING process.

autokludge ,
@autokludge@programming.dev avatar

I found with the few 'public speaking' presentations I did during school, writing down what I was going to say made me more diligent about information/points to bring forward and what phrasing to use. I suspect all this time spent on one specific thing greatly helped commit the topic to memory and by the time of presentation I didn't need to rely on prompts to get my point across.

Harbinger01173430 ,

All it takes is a few minutes to give chatgpt a good prompt and the copy and casting to the text document. 🧐

BURN ,

Then let it take hours. That’s how you learn. She’s not going to learn to remember to save regularly if you just sweep the mistake under the rug and do the heavy lifting for her the second time around.

Emerald ,

When I was learning Dvorak, I decided I would use it all the time. Even if it took me hours to write an essay. I now type 120 wpm. Practice works.

rottingleaf ,

Maybe just advise her to learn piano. Does wonders to one's typing habits.

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