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Amsterdam testing system that can remotely slow e-bikes down

Alrighty,

So your system knows the exact situation and still is slowing down my bike, just at the moment I need to accelerate to avoid being overrun by that large truck heading into me.

How stupid are these folks?
We've got rules, when people don't follow those rules, you fine them. Case closed.

No system to prevent a bike speeding, teach people to obey the law.

Grass ,

They should do it for cars first and see what happens

bitwolf ,

This seems ripe for workarounds.

It's not too complicated to fix a motor to your normal bicycle. I wonder how well this will implemented.

That said I'm surprised this is coming from Amsterdam, considering they're both very pro bike. And I also see very little controversy coming from the Netherlands in general (farm laws primarily)

BigBenis ,

Very pro bike but only bike. Pretty much any other modality device is banned from public bike paths.

mariusafa , (edited )

Overcontroll of citizens free will. A recurrent problem in northem europe. Because the goverment knows your safety and ethics better than yourself. And as some people view it:

Because of that they have the right to force your actions into what works best with society. Because individuals don't matter just collectives. Because enforcing is justified as long as it has an ethic basis, whatever it is.

It sounds dystopian and it is. Societies of the penitence, societes with ideals more religious than real religions. Where suicide rates are high, and society happines also is.

GeneralVincent ,

Yeah, it should be more like America, land of the free and happy, where suicide rates are lower!

oh wait...

mariusafa ,

I'm European

GeneralVincent ,

Congrats

mariusafa ,

Then why you bring up united states? Did i ever mention them?

GeneralVincent ,

Because you're advocating for citizens free will over government control, a great concept. But America is an excellent example of a country that worships freedom like a religion but is also high in suicide rates and is falling apart due to unregulated capitalism and freedoms at the expense of common sense.

And I'm American, we think everything is about us

hedgehog ,

The speed limits they listed seem so low given that 90% of bicycles in Amsterdam (or at least, those that are “victims” in traffic accidents) are unpowered. I’m not even a hobbyist cyclist, but on my (unpowered) entry-level hybrid bicycle I rode faster than 25 km/h (or 15 mph) the last time I took it out… and heck, I can run faster than 15 km/h.

The accident stats also don’t back up the idea that e-bikes are a problem demanding regulation, which makes me think that there’s knee-jerk politics at play here rather than this being a clear-headed response to a real problem. I’ll explain how I arrived at that conclusion.

First of all, as an aside, it’s weird that they said “more than half of all traffic victims were on a bicycle,” when the metric here should be the number of traffic collisions caused by cyclists. But supposing that’s actually what they meant:

  • if half of all accidents are caused by bicycles, then the other half are caused by cars and other motor vehicles. Since bicycles outnumber cars 4:1 in Amsterdam, that means cars are 4 times as likely to cause accidents as bicycles (startling low compared to how much more dangerous they are in the US). They recently lowered the speed limit of cars to 30 km/h, but I’m not sure if the stats take that into account. Maybe it needs lowered further, or maybe they should only allow cars with the same sort of smart governors installed that they’re testing out for e-bikes?
  • One in ten of those cyclists was on an electric bike (meaning 5% of accidents were caused by someone on an e-bike). 57% of bicycles sold in the Netherlands in 2022 were electric, but bikes last a while and they have a ton of them. As of the start of 2023 they had an estimated 5 million e-bikes, and the country has 23 million bicycles total (more than 1 per person). This means that 22% of their bikes are e-bikes, and (assuming that ratio applies to bikes on the road in Amsterdam) then given that only 10% of accidents involving bicycles involved e-bikes, that means that unpowered bicycles are a bit over twice as likely to cause accidents as e-bikes. Honestly, though, the ratio of e-bikes to unpowered bicycles is probably higher - I would expect people are more inclined to ride the new bicycle they just bought rather than one of the ones they’ve had for several years.

Obviously these stats are fairly sloppy, but I worked with what I could find.

Assuming my conclusion is accurate, this still doesn’t mean that e-bikes are less dangerous than bicycles - the accidents they’re in may be worse - but it certainly doesn’t suggest that e-bikes are the problem. I’m aligned with the other commenters here - this isn’t going to address the problem of people riding already illegal e-bikes.

The tech sounds cool and I’d love if it could be applied to cars, too, even if it’s opt-in only.

max ,

25 km/h is a sporty bike ride tempo, not a going to the shops to get some food bike ride tempo.
Especially considering that most bikes here are upright sitting city bikes rather than sporty, leaning forward bikes.

DillyDaily ,

I have a step through frame that you sit upright on. 20-25km/h is my average commuting speed for getting to work and going to the shops. I regularly have to push to 30km/h+ because of motor traffic trying to ride up my ass even though I'm in the designated bike lane. (cars in Australia like driving fast in the bike lanes to avoid the chicanes on the road designed to slow motor traffic for cyclist safety)

If ebikes are disproportionately represented in cycling accidents, then I would argue it's not the speed, it's the barrier to entry. People who have never ridden before, people who aren't physically able to ride a standard bike, these groups make up a significant portion of ebike riders because ebikes are accessible.

Yes, speed will contribute to this, people with limited riding experience being able to ride fast, possibly without the physical fitness required to control a bike at high speed.

The issue then isn't the speed itself, but rider education and training.

hedgehog ,

If ebikes are disproportionately represented in cycling accidents

To be clear, based off the (incomplete) data I have, it looks like e-bikes are under-represented. 22% of bicycles are e-bikes and e-bikes only make up 10% of cycling accidents.

It’s possible the 10% stat was of total accidents, making it 20% of cycling accidents, meaning they’d be properly represented. Or maybe the stat is from multiple years ago, when e-bikes made up 10% or less of bikes on the road. Or both, in which case they would be over-represented, at which point it would at least make sense to include the stat.

If they are over-represented, what you said would make sense! And at that point, I would think it would be most effective to focus on providing more opportunities for training and education to riders. Maybe they’re already doing that, too, and this is just one more thing they’re exploring.

HopFlop ,

Depends on how often you ride I guess but if there is an e-scooter infront of me (they go 20 km/h), I have to hold back a bit.

Appoxo ,
@Appoxo@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Maybe in NL.
On my bike commute (about 4km one-way) lightly down hill I can easily reach 30km/h.
Uphill the same route (depending on how fit I am) I can more or less pull 25km/h through.

Though I am not in a busy city. I would probably get killed with the way I am driving where I live.

Appoxo ,
@Appoxo@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

I can easily ride my bike at 25-30km/h on flat even surface.
Light hills are more difficult on the long run but I can probably manage 20km/h.

Edit:
A relative worked in the ER so I have some ideas why e-bikes are maybe more prone to accidents. My theory: Older folks.
The usual demographic driving e-bikes usually are/were +50 years old.
With reflexes being not what they were and them going out more due to being mobile again, they surely are more prone to be involved in traffic accidents.

hedgehog ,

Makes sense, and is aligned with the “reduced barrier to entry” theory posited by another commenter. Just to be clear, though, what I read (though very imperfect stat-wise) suggests that e-bikes are less prone to accidents, not more.

HaywardT , (edited )

The US has several proposals for this on cars. You say opt in only. How about this: when you exceed the speed limit the car automatically notifies the government so they can fine you. You can opt-in to have the car automatically control you top speed so you don't get fined.

hedgehog ,

The tech I’m talking about isn’t related to speed limits, but zones where pedestrians, particularly children, are much more likely to be in the street.

when you exceed the speed limit the car automatically notifies the government so they can find you.

I assume you meant “fine”; regardless, why is there a need for that in order to enable the second piece?

You can opt-in to have the car automatically control you top speed so you don't get fined.

Change that to “You can enable a feature that will automatically reduce your set cruising speed (or, if you’re not using cruise control at that point, give you tactile feedback on the accelerator foot pedal) when you enter an area where pedestrians are in the street or are expected to be in the street (i.e., there’s a cross walk up ahead and a pedestrian has triggered it).” Or, to summarize similar to what you said: “You can have the car automatically reduce your speed when necessary so you don’t kill people.”

HaywardT ,

The "zones" should have lower speed limits. That is a traffic engineering problem.

The need for the opt in process is to counter the (stupid) arguments of I need to be able to drive fast to get my grandma to the hospital.

You don't need "tactal feedback." You need to limit the speed of the vehicle, like a rev limiter. Why do you need the ability to break the law?

gerryflap ,
@gerryflap@feddit.nl avatar

I don't have the data to back it up, but as someone who lives in the Netherlands I can tell you that e-bikes definitely seem like a problem. People who ride a normal bike to go somewhere definitely don't go faster than 15 kph on average. You totally can do so if you want, just like you can run everywhere instead of walking, but then you might arrive sweaty and out of breath. E-bikes allow people who don't usually have the physical strength to cycle that fast to suddenly go 25 kph without much effort. Especially children and elderly are a problem. The bikes are heavy, meaning that they're hard to control for these groups. And children and elderly also both often lack the awareness of their surroundings needed for driving this fast. I've seen many dangerous situations where these groups on an e-bike yeet into a crossing, suddenly have to brake due to other traffic that they failed to account for, and then almost fall over or crash.

E-bikes have a way too large speed difference with normal bikes, and imo they're definitely a danger. Anything that makes them slower is imo a good thing.

Schlemmy ,

So, implement it in cars... Lethal machines that need to be limited.

bartolomeo ,

Headline 5 years from now, "Dutch hackers sit at outdoor cafes and boost bikers' pedal control, causing havoc and lulz".

WhatAmLemmy ,

In much of the EU, a terrorist org or nation state could cause tens of thousands of casualties using a system like this in a matter of minutes.

All they'd have to do is accelerate every bike to top speed at one during peak time. Even if remote acceleration is impossible (or not yet exploited), you could still do a-lot of damage with threshold changes or sudden braking; any remote intervention is a safety and security risk.

HaywardT ,

There are a lot easier ways to cause damage than this.

possiblylinux127 ,
@possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip avatar

"Speed limit enforced by aircraft"

CaptKoala ,

I want "traffic laws enforced by sniper".

possiblylinux127 ,
@possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip avatar

I'm just imagining a Utopia city where everyone is smiling and happy. A few seconds later someone would accidentally break formation and be immediately vaporized

CaptKoala ,

At the rate we're going it won't be that long I reckon.

mastod0n ,

Imagine someone suggested this for cars

cosmicrookie ,
@cosmicrookie@lemmy.world avatar

They should!

bassad ,

It is already the case for new cars in EU from july 1st

mastod0n ,

Wait seriously? Do you have a link or name to search for?

loutr ,
@loutr@sh.itjust.works avatar

https://www.brusselstimes.com/855280/self-braking-cars-all-new-cars-to-be-fitted-with-speed-limiting-technology

utopiah ,

Damn, finally. Can't wait to see this actually take place. Only ambulances, firefighter or such services that genuinely need the speed and can justify it should be able to go fast in a city. On a highway where everybody are in properly protected vehicle all going in the same direction, sure, go fast, but a city where people actually live, kids walk to school, people walk their dogs, why going over the speed limit where you could literally kill someone.

July 2024 is very close but I wonder what will be the percentage of cars on the roads supporting ISA. I imagine less than 1% so curious about the rate of change. I imagine that due to LEZ though it could go relatively fast. There is hope after all for a city genuinely made for people.

HaywardT ,

I'm all for it too. We are in the minority but it would have so many advantages. Beyond just speeding it reduces the desire for aggressive driving too.

loutr ,
@loutr@sh.itjust.works avatar

Yeah I've been wishing for something like this for a long time. Actual conversation I once had:

"Drugs are illegal because it's bad for you! We're protecting you against your bad choices!"

"OK then, it's illegal to go faster than 130km/h everywhere in France, why don't you protect me and others against my bad decisions and forbid selling cars that go higher than that?"

Mumbles something about personal freedom

Ravioli ,

My current (2023 model) has such sensors and cameras to detect speed limits and switches cruise control based on it. It gets it wrong way too often to actually enforce it. E.g. 50kmh roads turning into highways and the car not recognising the highway sign due to a bush, the fact that Dutch highways have different speed limits at different times often without clear signing, or even the opposite problem where it'll see a 120kmh sign from another lane and active cruise will suddenly speed me up to that on a 50kmh bend.

bassad ,

sure, 2019 EU regulation, to apply in 2022 and 2024 : https://road-safety-charter.ec.europa.eu/resources-knowledge/media-and-press/intelligent-speed-assistance-isa-set-become-mandatory-across

you still can de-activate it, but you have to do it every time you run the car.

To stay in topic : In some cities there is already an automatic speed limit to 5km/h in certain areas (packed narrow streets in city center, around schools...) for rental scooters, so it is not surprising they want to extend it to all electric mobility. Even for cars speed limit is often limited at 30 km/h in city centers.

mastod0n ,

Thanks! :)

skuzz ,

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a46554218/new-car-regulated-speed-limit-california-bill/ California is already trying.

MangoPenguin ,
@MangoPenguin@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

The usual "too many people are getting hit by cars while on bicycles, obviously it's the bicycles that are the problem"

If ebikes that go over 25kmh are already illegal, why would those ebikes have this speed limiter module installed?

Why are ebikes are not allowed to go fast enough to just ride on the road with cars, making it much safer for pedestrians and for the ebikes?

According to Paul Timmer of the Townmaking Institute, getting the device working on all e-bikes should be pretty straightforward. “There are five manufacturers and suppliers of motors for electric bicycles. They all work with similar systems,”

Also completely false, are they going to make it illegal to buy ebikes that don't come with those 5 drive systems from large corporations, and shut out the small businesses that make ebike motors?

cosmicrookie ,
@cosmicrookie@lemmy.world avatar

The article also describes this working on lower speed limits like close to schools or when approaching worksites. I can't see why this is not a good idea

utopiah ,

I can’t see why this is not a good idea

I believe the argument here is that it's security theater, i.e it looks positive but in practice has literally no effect. To clarify if people buy a "normal" e-bike today, they are already speed limited. Consequently people who have bike going faster that said limit are doing something already beyond the ordinary. The likelihood that such people would suddenly change their behavior to buy typical bikes when they have even more restrictions is probably not high, but the announcement still makes it look like something is done for the greater good.

cosmicrookie ,
@cosmicrookie@lemmy.world avatar

The way i see it, its an area that is in the process of becoming regulated. The article mentions

More than half of all electric cyclists ride faster than the permitted 25 kilometers

This can't be the case if they are speed limited

utopiah ,

My bad I didn't see that proportion thanks for clarifying. As more than half are already going over the speed limit then there is indeed a more systemic problem. I thought it was about say 10% fringe that go with heavily modified bikes. I'm not sure more tech would help though, rather than fines with explanation of the risk until people do start respecting the limit. If people are unable to respect that and it causes more accidents, then yes ISA on e-bikes, cars, everything causing accident on the road.

endhits ,

If the state can control your bike, you don't actually own it.

CaptKoala ,

Our bike

kylian0087 ,

Amsterdam slowly becoming like India with all those rules 😂

LesserAbe ,

I don't get it, does India require speed limiters on ebikes?

kylian0087 ,

No making everything 30 km/ph so all the scooters and Ebikes go left and right of cars. To be expected people get those fatbikes that go over the speed limit. being almost impossible to get anywhere in the city is frustrating. in a few year it is just like India where no one cares about any rules on the road and crosses everything without looking.

emergencyfood ,

None as far as I know. But then we enforce speed limits less with rules and more with potholes, traffic jams and narrow roads, so it's a moot point.

KrokanteBamischijf ,

So your system knows the exact situation and still is slowing down my bike, just at the moment I need to accelerate to avoid being overrun by that large truck heading into me.

After reading the article, it seems like the system is supposed to temporarily jam pedal assist, turning your ebike into a regular bike. And the system would need to be installed in all street legal ebikes for that to happen. Since you're still free to accelerate by pedaling like a normal bike user, that significantly reduces the amount of situations where the pedal assist would actually save you. If you can't avoid collision by pedaling harder, you probably had no chance in the first place.

Considering most of the inner city's roads now have a 30 km/h speed limit for cars, collision safety is probably even less of a concern now.

I do share the concern of others in the comments that such a system would probably be broken on day one, and you have a bunch of script kiddies with flipper zeros running around bricking ebikes.

The only way for that not to happen is to use proper encryption for any wireless signals being used to control this system. Considering the Dutch governmental reputation for IT failures, this is probably not going to go well.

QuaternionsRock ,

Since you're still free to accelerate by pedaling like a normal bike user, that significantly reduces the amount of situations where the pedal assist would actually save you.

Bro e-bikes are like 3-6x heavier than normal bikes, manual pedaling sucks and you can’t accelerate for shit

poopkins ,

Precisely; for context, it was recently discussed in Dutch media how some of these e-bikes reach 60 km/h. Together with a culture of people refusing to wear bicycle helmets, there's certainly some more nuance and middle ground.

There needs to be some kind of solution, but doing nothing is not really an option.

eco_game ,

And the system would need to be installed in all street legal ebikes for that to happen.

Wouldn't street legal ebikes not go too fast by default anyway?
I feel like if that's the case, this would mostly inconvenience people with legal ebikes and have barely any effect on illegal ones that can go faster.

dabaldeagul ,
@dabaldeagul@feddit.nl avatar

Street legal bikes can be modified. This system would, in theory, make it harder to exceed speed limits on assisted pedalling, or at least easier to find those who do it and fine them.

utopiah ,

at least easier to find those who do it and fine them.

Missed that part, can you please clarify how?

dabaldeagul ,
@dabaldeagul@feddit.nl avatar

This is speculative, but since it uses a standardized system, it should be easier to check if anything has been modified. And it is connected to some remote system, so that may allow for extra opportunities to catch them too.

wolfpack86 ,

But pedal accelerating an ebike is not quite as easy as a regular bike. They're over 20kg due to steel frames and batteries.

neo2478 ,

People in this thread clearly have never been to Amsterdam. We have protected bike lanes, and where there is mixed traffic, bikes have preference and are actually respected by larger vehicles.

On the other hand, there has been an increase in accidents due to electric bikes going too fast mixed with normal bikes and pedestrians.

jol ,

I've been in so many close calls with e-scooter riding in sidewalks in my city. But it's always a specific kind of asshole that does that.

bionicjoey ,

In my city, that specific kind of asshole is someone with multiple DUIs, since they can still legally ride an E-bike

hex_m_hell ,
@hex_m_hell@slrpnk.net avatar

Also eBikes in the Netherlands don't have acceleators unless they're illegally modified.

neo2478 ,

E-bikes elsewhere have accelerators and not just pedal assist? Wouldn’t that make it an electric scooter?

hex_m_hell ,
@hex_m_hell@slrpnk.net avatar

In the US it's really common to have an accelerator.

neo2478 ,

Interesting. If I’m not mistaken, here if it has an accelerator then it has to be registered with a license plate and it’s not considered a bicycle.

Only pedal assists electric bikes which go up to 25kph are allowed.

hex_m_hell ,
@hex_m_hell@slrpnk.net avatar

That's also my understanding.

Cethin ,

I think if it has pedal assist as an option it's OK, as long as it doesn't have more than a certain amount of power. I'm not certain, but I think it's something like that.

daellat ,

Hey I used to go to school here, it's the Wibautstraat at the Hogeschool van Amsterdam

toofpic ,

If you're in a situation where you need to outspeed a truck to not die, you have tp consider your life choices. I can't even imagine a situation that could lead to it, if we don't count "I just randomly started to cross a busy road" ones.

Darkraisisi ,
@Darkraisisi@feddit.nl avatar

This makes no sense in the geographical context.
The reverse is usually true here in the Netherlands. Modded electric bikes and scooters go way above the legal limit and put themselves in danger by speeding across infront of trafic. Where cars have to suddenly account for them beeing somewhere quicker then expected/ coming out of "nowhere".

toofpic ,

Yes, I know and I see them daily. I was answering on a comment "ooh, they will slow me down and I'll get in a dangerous situation because of that!" The one thing i don't see much is "speeding in front of traffic, as in Copenhagen there are not many places where there are no bicycle lanes and the cars are driving fast at the same time.

QuaternionsRock ,

It’s relatively common for a car to merge into you where I live. If you’re adjacent to the front wheel it’s safer to accelerate the rest of the way than it is to brake.

Edit: it’s also insane that they’re trying to do this with e-bikes before cars.

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