power density just needs to grow until someone can easily kit-swap a range of battery and motor options into any platform - then we can ev-ify whatever we want to drive around.
I think people need to start being educated about how their climate influences how they can use the electric car. Many people know if they live by the sea or where roads are salted that corrosion is an issue. But people might not be aware that with some EVs, they should leave it plugged in if they're in an extreme climate, so the car can air condition or heat the battery. I caused some battery degradation to my Volt because I wasn't able to leave it plugged in living in Tucson.
That is too general of a statement. I have three EVs in my family, none of them do any temp condition of the battery just by being plugged in. However, EVCC turns off the wallbox when they reach 75% SoC and there is no appointment that day in our shared calendar. Sitting at high SoCs kills batteries, especially in warm climates.
You have a point; some EVs like the Leaf don't even have conditioning. The Volt does have active conditioning, and being a PHEV instead of a BEV has battery charge and discharge limits which were limited by the factory to preserve longevity at the expense of being able to charge to a true 100%. If extra range is needed the ICE is activated instead of stressing the traction battery.
I've been taught that capitalism is all about innovation... So I'm sure the perfect long life car is just around the corner, they wouldn't actually just build crappy cars just to force us in a never ending cycle of consumerism, right?... Right?
This will make starting a business (any kind) in this area another little bit more expensive, while much less affecting the existing ones. And when everybody big is sabotaging a rule, you'll see it becoming just a symbolic fine.
EDIT: I wrote a lot of stuff elaborating it further, don't read it if you are not interested in my political views.
It's counterintuitive, but regulations won't work. Those supposedly in our favor still have such side effects, being the more bothersome the smaller you are. Those openly not in our favor work more efficiently, cause the state enforcing them is an organism much more similar to corporations than to us. They understand each other better and work in symbiosis.
All these things are the consequence of patent and trademark laws. Very basic and short-term versions of these are better than none, but what we have now is killing our civilization. Not slowing it down, not making it worse, just killing it.
Competition does work when it's not fucking prohibited! And that's what we now have, competition being discouraged.
With idealized unimpeded competition everybody really gets their needs, because the demand of poor people for housing, for example, is still something that can well be provided with the value they can give back.
I don't understand people who look at our current world and think it's not regulated enough, thus it's capitalism's fault. It's regulated to sea hell. And the more regulated a country is, the more likely it is to be an oligopoly. Say, Sweden which many people like a lot. Most of its economy is owned by a few families. They are just kinda magnanimous.
Which leads us to the question why the legal and social and economic systems become what they are, that's because they are affected by power manifested in various ways. You can't vote for the world becoming better and expect it to become better.
Openness, transparency, voluntarism, right to cut off voices you don't want to hear and right to raise your voice anywhere on any matter are things that make power more distributed and competitive.
And any regulation gives additional power to people who already have enough.
My uncle bought a used car built in communist east Germany. He always emphasized how it was built like a tank to last. Capitalism is great and all, but it promotes waste. Companies have an incentive to make products that fail and need to be repurchased. Planned obsolescence is fine if it was only about people craving something better. As it stands, it’s more of a forced switch with breakable parts.
Because I lived there when the Wall came down, and I can tell you based on the huge influx of Eastern Germans who had floorboards you could see through that quality was not a priority.
More it still exists because they were literally incapable of replacing it. They weren't good quality; people just didn't have any other options. I'm sure we can make our cars last just as long if we clamp the screws tighter and ensure no one can afford to buy a new car.
I’m sure we can make our cars last just as long if we clamp the screws tighter and ensure no one can afford to buy a new car.
doubtful, if you look at the differences between a lot of soviet engineering and a lot of western engineering, the western engineering is often much nicer, but also rather temperamental in terms of long term maintenance. It's certainly possible, but it's just a different design meta. Especially if we're talking modern western equipment, which is designed to be "service life only"
Sometimes you stuck gold. Got one of those amazing Philips electric kettles 20 years ago. Works like new still. Of course they don't make them anymore.
Electric motors can last a really long time, assuming no defects, they should outlast the battery by a Longshot.
That leaves the battery, and an LFP battery should also last a hell of a long time, probably a decent way into a million km before you have degraded to about 80%.
If you got those key items lasting, then it just depends on how well the rest of the car holds up, but replacing small parts while the motors and battery works is probably always going to be more cost effective.
The problem is the battery is a wildcard still.
We know how long those LFP batteries should last in a car, but they're also pretty are in cars and we don't have that real world data yet.
I also fear that OEMs will still gouge us on replacement batteries 15 - 20 years from now when costs are even lower and replacing the battery shouldn't be so expensive.
The battery doesn't have to fail for the car to be useless. One of those circuit boards that holds it all together goes and it's "whoops, we don't make that any more".
Imagine being able to opt into an long term support branch when you feel your phone starting to lag, unlocked bootloader's, and have user replaceable batteries.
Still mad about accidentally installing the newer version of iOS on my iPad pro. Such a meaningful feature to have security patches without slowdown from newer versions.
I wish more bootloader's came unlocked these days. I got a Google pixel for that, the seven years of promised updates, and parts.
Though I think it would be cheaper to buy a used pixel 8 from eBay and the adhesive from ifixit if I end up braking the screen in a few years I'm more interested in being able to get a fresh battery without guessing if it was salvaged from a heavily used phone.
Edit: phones should be more like the laptops from the early 2000s damnit. I don't care if my phone is a little thicker than a pencil at least it'll hide the camera bump.
I am very anxious even with normal maintenance - heating adhesive up is not something I am capable of now. So was looking at new last-gen Pixels instead, and 7a is $300 :( People I know who have it say it's good hardware, but that's still an insane sum to spend on a phone.
Tbh it's not a bad price looking at what other phones are out at that price. Your looking at a great screen, awesome camera, ok battery life, and snappy enough performance for everyday stuff.
At the end of the day it's what you can afford and what you need. If you have a small repair shop nearby it wouldn't hurt to give it a try, see how expensive the repair might bee. If your current phone is fine then keep using it, if you need a phone on a budget I'd go used, anything new under $200 will most likely be worse than anything you can get used, and if you want something new that pixel 7a wouldn't be half bad tbh.
I don't get how people are replacing their phones so damn often. I buy used flagships that are usually a year or two old and rock them for another 4 years. Note 10+ here, and I've had it for around 3 years now, probably won't upgrade for another 2 years, as it's perfectly fine still.
I had a Sony Xperia something for years, no case. Then I upgraded to a Samsung and gave my Sony to my mum. She cracked the back of it almost immediately lol
My current phone is almost 3.5 years old and I have no intention on upgrading anytime soon, but in the past I did tend to have to replace a phone about every two years. Mostly because POGO (and my being rough with them). Ports being damaged (and me not knowing how to repair them myself and others wanting to charge the cost of a new phone to repair it), being dropped, etc.
I used my 6t for 4 years but it started bootlooping and I needed it for 2fa codes every login on some applications for work. I bought a 10t after a couple of days. Funny enough now the 6t appears stable again, oh well it's the household backup if any others spontaneously die
I just got a new phone despite my previous one being totally fine because it's no longer getting security updates. I've had it for ~4 years with no issues, so I got a Pixel for longer security updates.
So yeah, they totally could last longer if they kept supporting them.
I would love to see a car company create a vehicle platform with battery replacements central to the design of the car. Make larger packs out of smaller units so their larger models (or simply longer range models) simply use more of the smaller pack units. Recycle old packs back into making newer ones to reduce the need to mine more materials.
Sure, charge me enough on the replacement to keep this cycle going. Buying a car you know will get battery (and therefore range) upgrades as time goes on is a no-brainer.
Imagine the goodwill and free word-of-mouth advertising you would receive if you went the extra mile and open sourced all the software for the vehicle and allowed users to modify it if they wanted. Make the car not look like dogshit and I imagine you'd do well.
Look up Nio. They already have fully automatic battery swapping stations for cars leasing the pack. You literally swap the whole pack instead of charging when it's empty.
That is very interesting and their cars look appealing.
I think in the US, a company may have a better time selling the whole car including battery and still offering quick replacement when it comes time to upgrade.
I'm about to search more but do you happen to know if Nio is selling in the US?
Edit: Dang.. Not selling in the US yet. And with these new tariffs it's not looking good.
nice concept and i think framework might actually do a protoype of this kind of car when they get the investors and the funds currently they still are a small company so i really hope that they become larger in this decade
Company called vinfast opened up next to tesla in my town. Never heard of them so i checked it out and they have a battery subscription option which was interesting to me, if its like propane tank exchange systems it could be interesting, since its the battery that seems to be the. Biggest concern for people having to replace down the line. Would make a lot of sense for heavy use situations(delivery, sales that travel a lot etc and burn through leases regularily)
Its really worth reading the whole Article. Im looking forward to long lasting EVs, but I really fear that, what the author also described in his article, may come true. I think we will see that car manufacturers will start to act like hardware company's and start to force you to regularly buy a new car by making your car incompatible to new features or by designing it to fail after a few years.
I think we will see that car manufacturers will start to
They started to do this decades ago. Generally any given part in a car might be left unchanged for 5 or 6 model years before it gets changed, often for completely arbitrary reasons. For many cars, if it's over ten years old your only hope for a replacement part is the junkyard.
Yeah, options open up for some massively popular models or otherwise very well loved models. I got replacement gears for headlight motors for a 90s car with pop-up headlights, because people got tired of the OEM design wearing out so easily. I suspect someone trying to keep a Pontiac Aztek going might have a harder time finding enthusiasts keeping things alive.
The opensource edm machine that is just now gain popularity seems like a great choice for parts! LumenPNP for machine replacement circuit boards on larger scales is exciting to me too ( I hate hand soldering so maybe its just a personal thing lol).
My local maker space built a plasma tourch and table too. Honestly it feels likes all coming together for it to be done
After ~20-30 years, rubber gaskets and seals and cable insulation start failing. Plastic becomes brittle, especially if exposed to the sun. How do they solve this problem?
I would think an electric vehicle would have quite a lot fewer things like gaskets and other seals since gas isn't involved. Other than the normal wear and tear items like brakes, shocks, rotors, etc, battery repair would be the major thing I'd expect to need work. I imagine many mechanics aren't trained to handle these, so they end up just replacing the whole unit. Obviously this is wasteful though but could be easily solved via training.
Pretty much this, diagnosing and fixing an electric motor is about as difficult as an alternator. Check signal, if good remove unit and swap (core gets remanufactured). With drive by wire and steer by wire and all that most things are equally modular. Gas pedal/throttle unit is pretty much a rheostat with a spring-loaded pedal, steering rack actuators, etc
Then you got ICE which becomes a ship of theseus. If you put enough hours on a combustion engine you go from the simple stuff like hoses and timing belts to having to replace piston rings, bearings, or even the cylinder heads if they get so worn out that they leak and fail compression tests
Cars used to be much more modular. Newer models of car - much like newer models of cell phone - are deliberately engineered to be difficult to disassemble and fix, in order to compel people to replace the whole vehicle on a tighter time frame.
It was a big reason for the surge in popularity of Japanese cars, during the 80s/90s. Honda Civics were famously very easy to mod, leading to the trend of "Rice Rocket" cheap urban street racing cars. That's fallen off substantially in the last ten years, thanks to Japanese companies becoming infested with Wall Street / McKinley Consultant profit-chasers. Toyota and Hyundai might as well be run by the CEO of GM, the way they build their vehicles.
But a lot of the new Indian and Chinese vehicles are adhering to more traditional modular manufacturing style. They're also having a really hard time getting their vehicles into Western dominated car-markets, for some curious reason.
Agreed 100 percent. I’ve never touched anything Chinese so I’m clueless there, but from what I’ve seen they are quite far ahead in the EV front. It’s a shame we don’t get the good stuff that Toyota still makes in Australia
Modularity of construction, so that rubber components can be replaced without scrapping the whole vehicle. Reducing reliance on plastic parts, or improving the ease and quality of plastic recycling, so that we can fix the exterior components without sacrificing the chassis and core parts.
Not really. There's no excessive heat outside of the engine bay, but plenty of rubber and plastic. Heck, even my rubber grip on my toothbrush has turned into a mush after some years and it wasn't even exposed to sunlight, as there are no windows in the bathroom. Organic matter decays, it's just life.
The engine compartment is what I was addressing. There's a number of gaskets where failure can destroy an engine etc vastly reducing the life span of the car. Like while it does matter if the tail lights go out you can often reroute a cable for something like that with little difficulty. You cannot reroute the critical degrading components in a combustion engine as easily.
Electric cars are estimated to have 2/3 the maintenance costs of ICE vehicles. Their lifespan is likely only limited by the frame whereas ICE is limited by the frame and the engine. Major fail points of older cars include timing belts and head gaskets.
You have way too much confidence. Have you owned a car for 10+ years? Almost everything rubber - especially within the suspension system needs replacement within the first 10 years of wear and tear.
Seriously, no one is going to mention "Right To Repair"? If this was law, and companies had to divulge how there stuff worked and was assembled, as well as sell parts, things would last longer. If every trade zone had a repairablity index, competition would make things last longer still.
States have had no trouble passing and enforcing IP law that allows companies to get away with this. Reverse engineering would be the norm for closed source anything to the point it would be made irrelevant if companies didn't have the overwhelming weight of the legal system on their side to shut down anyone who dares try open up access to their designs.
Right to repair is great, but we are fighting against the entire weight of the entrenched ruling class to get it passed. It's going to take a lot of activism, and even then it's almost certainly going to be watered down and cater to large corporations when it does pass. We need to keep the pressure on them.
If this was law, and companies had to divulge how there stuff worked and was assembled, as well as sell parts, things would last longer.
I'm all for it but I think you're being a bit too optimistic. If we had the right to repair then the prices of repair kits and materials is going to go up most likely. I can think of a few other ways they can make that system obnoxious too.
It's like everything else. Yeah, the general systems in place could be greatly improved but ultimately the majority of the issues lie with the people at the top who refuse to let us have good things. No matter what laws are passed they will find a way to profit at any cost. The shareholders behind massive corporations are the first priority because no solution we create will work as efficiently as it can unless they are out of the picture.
Regulations can work. Latest is EU's USB-C phone/laptop/tablet standardization. It's great! No more crazy range of different laptop power supplies.
Some stuff is pretty much as I want already. Henry vacuum cleaners for example. Tough as nails and easy to get parts and help for. Framework laptop and fair phone aim to be good for repair and upgradablity.
France repairablity index can be rolled out further field.
Things used to be more repairable and last longer. We can reverse the trend down. No need to despair.
With so many fewer moving parts compared to an internal combustion engine, yes, EVs could be durable enough to be handed down from generation to generation. Just keep replacing the few moving parts that wear out. Worn interiors can be refreshed. Electronics are modules that can be replaced with updated versions.
What we have to look out for here though is this overall trend of 'rent everything own nothing', though. Car companies might try to make vehicles lease-only, so you have all the responsibilities of ownership but none of the benefits of ownership, and it's never paid off, you just pay forever.
Exactly. I'm looking for a repairable EV, and so many kinda suck. A lot have big computer modules that control nearly everything, the battery pack uses bespoke parts that aren't available from the manufacturer, etc. They probably need less maintenance, but they will need that maintenance eventually.
It's disappointing the direction everything is going.
the one pain point would be the batteries, and those have no reason to not be easily maintainable and highly universal. They're all modular and often times even using the same cell types.
While it's true that EVs can be built with fewer moving parts in the drive system itself, and that companies could absolutely produce longer lasting vehicles if they focused on longevity, there are still a lot of parts of a vehicle that simply will not last beyond a certain point. The moving parts of an EV still cover everything in the suspension, wheels/brakes/steering, and a number of other components that are very costly to replace, not to mention the underlying frame/unibody of the vehicle itself being vulnerable to wear over time depending on the conditions it's driven in. "The few moving parts that wear out" still covers a huge swath of a vehicle, even if you take the engine and transmission out of the equation.
Well-built EVs with a focus on longevity and repairability could extend the lifespan of the average people mover by a great deal, but at the end of the day cars will by nature eventually reach a point where the cost to repair some major core component becomes too great to justify, outside of rare or collectable cases.
I know all that. I'm talking about the moving parts in the ENGINE, which then would not exist. A brushless DC drive motor only has bearings to worry about. A gearbox is necessary but a well-made gearbox should last for decades and is way easier to rebuild than an entire ICE engine. Of course suspension and brake parts wear out over time, but as you can see I wasn't referring to those any more than I was referring to tires. All those things are cheaper and easier to replace, really, than having to worry about an entire ICE engine, with the fuel system, cooling system, and exhaust system to worry about. At worst an EV might have a motor or it's inverter go bad, and of course the battery pack has a limited lifespan, but those are essentially drop-in replacements compared to what you have to go through with a modern ICE and all the crap attached to them.
