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Please, for the love of God, VOTE!

I don't like Biden either, but anyone with half a brain knows there are two choices in the 2020 election. If we had a sane voting system, voting third party might be worth it, but as it stands, no one but you knows your favorite candidate exists and unless you want to become their campaign manager that will still be true in November. Even if you did, and even if you convinced two thirds of the people who would otherwise have voted for Biden to vote for your chosen candidate instead, Trump would still win because half the country voted for him and your guy only got a third. If you vote third party you might as well stay home.

Not voting isn't going to stop the genocide in Gaza. The US will continue to funnel them arms no matter which candidate wins this November. Trump practically campaigns on how much he hates the Jews and he's publicly told Israel to "finish up their war". He'll also make life a living hell for anyone who isn't a straight cisgender male back here at home.

A vote for a candidate is not an endorsement of them or their policies, it's a statement that you like their policies more than the other guy's, and "sticking it to liberals" and "refusing to support genocide" (that's not what voting for Biden is doing, by the way -- a vote for either candidate is a vote for genocide and a vote for neither is an endorsement of both) is not more important than keeping the furthest right politician America has ever seen out of office.

How incredibly privileged do you have to be to see an entire national election as what will happen in the Middle East and ignore Trump's campaign promises to wipe transgender Americans off the map, and further, to not realize that the same thing will happen in the Middle East regardless of which candidate wins?

I hate Biden as much as every other leftist here. But I'll still vote for him because Trump is worse. If there's a single bone in your body that cares about the lives of your trans friends you will too.

https://files.catbox.moe/cnc9p9.webp

danc4498 ,

I hope the closer we get to the election the miss obvious this becomes to everybody.

doubtingtammy , (edited )

I hate Biden as much as every other leftist here. But I'll still vote for him because Trump is worse. If there's a single bone in your body that cares about the lives of your trans friends you will too.

I'm a trans person. Here's what I'm most concerned about: the dehumanization of Palestinians and immigrants. Biden has gone along 100% with the dehumanization of these groups

how the fuck am I supposed to trust Democrats that claim to support trans people when this is how they support Palestine? This is a president thats supporting an ongoing genocide while persuing draconian immigration policies. Am I supposed to just throw those groups under the bus for my own personal gain?

You've made it abundantly clear that if Biden was pushing anti-trans policies, you'd still support him. You've made it clear there is absolutely nothing Biden could do that would lose your support.

Habahnow ,

Yeah you're right, trump is better. /S
Don't let perfect be the enemy of progress.
Trump will ensure to help Israel, and he will look for more ways to hurt trans people.

doubtingtammy ,

Yeah you're right, genocide is not a deal breaker. /S

CluelessLemmyng ,

How is Trump who supports genocide abroad AND at home better?

doubtingtammy ,

In September 2023,, did you think you'd be supporting a candidate that you acknowledge is committing a genocide? Because my expectations for liberals in 2023 were already very low. But this is some Nazi Germany shit that we're living in now.

CluelessLemmyng ,

In September of 2023, I was prepared to vote blue in my State of Virginia, where we had a Red governor, a Blue Senate, and a Red House with the legislature seats all up for grabs. Now the legislative branch is Blue and the Governor is kept firmly in check and unlikely to run for President any longer.

And I never acknowledged Biden supported genocide; merely pointing out your fallacy in supporting actual genocide. In fact, the actions of the Biden administration to Palestinians in the US is contrary to your claims of the administration supporting genocide: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/biden-protects-palestinian-immigrants-in-u-s-from-deportation-israel-hamas-war/

gamermanh ,
@gamermanh@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

In fact, the actions of the Biden administration to Palestinians in the US is contrary to your claims of the administration supporting genocide:

Doing minor shit while paying lip service to the idea that maybe you'll actually do something about your closest ally committing a genocide is WEAK. Especially when it's almost 6 months after this shit already started.

It's very clear that Biden supports this genocide and is only now doing something about it because the commoners are actually reacting to it

doubtingtammy ,

In fact, the actions of the Biden administration to Palestinians in the US is contrary to your claims of the administration supporting genocide:

This is an honestly insulting thing to say. We have eyes. We know where the missiles are made. We know that a convoy of trucks can deliver more aid than air drops and a dock built out of rubble and corpses. The Biden administration supports genocide in palestine. Full stop. No amount of gaslighting can change that fact.

KingThrillgore ,
@KingThrillgore@lemmy.ml avatar

Not just Israel. But Russia too.

WraithGear ,
@WraithGear@lemmy.world avatar

There is no better time to make demands from the Democratic Party than right. now. as they need progressives and leftists to win. They have shown time and time again they are not willing to change their party in times of ease.

Habahnow ,

You want to change them? Get them to the white house. If Biden loses and becomes a perfect angel attempting to fulfill your every wish, want to know what you get? Whatever the fuck Trump wants to give you for 4 years. That's continued Genocide in Gaza, and more laws restricting Trans rights.

To say that Democrats have not changed party in all these years is ridiculous. The first US president to join a picket line is Joe Biden. The largest investment to fight global warming was signed by Joe Biden.

You want Democrats to pass more things? they need more than just a 1 vote lead in the senate. They need to control congress AND the presidency.

WraithGear ,
@WraithGear@lemmy.world avatar

And i probably will, but this “you don’t have a choice, so shut up about criticizing Biden because in 6 months there will be an election” Is very much bull shit. Sounds like people who are happy with a right wing Democratic Party don’t want the disenfranchised to have a say. Right now is THE time to call out Biden for his horse shit. And if he loses the next election, that’s not on the disenfranchised voters, that’s on the democrats for disenfranchising their voters. If we ever get ranked choice voting i will most Likely never vote democrat again. And i wonder if that’s why they kill voting reform

Dippy ,
@Dippy@beehaw.org avatar

[Thread, post or comment was deleted by the author]

    •
    Cowbee ,

    What do you think shapes the policy of the Democrats, their morals, or their material goals? Do you think politicians are just "good" and "bad" people who can be swayed by a good conversation, at large, or do you believe policy is dictated by material realities?

    How do you wish to get meaningful change?

    LinkOpensChest_wav ,
    @LinkOpensChest_wav@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    Even if they don’t do this one thing better

    1. It's not "just one thing"

    2. One of those things is making a straight up genocide possible

    If we're not actively trying to get him to change course now while he's the sitting president, then I scarcely see the point in voting in November. If we're going to tolerate a genocide and the myth of a "border crisis" to extend the arm of fascism. If we're not willing to speak up now, then that means we're not willing to stand for LGBTQIA+ people either. And make no mistake about it: Biden is not an ally.

    I'm not saying don't vote, but I'm saying now is the time to pressure him to change course. He's not going to do so on his own. He's less moral than the worst serial killer, to put it into perspective.

    doubtingtammy ,

    It's like that old poem:

    First they came for the immigrants.

    So I also went after the immigrants, because the other side was going to go after them worse

    Then they came for the Palestinians.

    So I also went after the Palestinians because the other side would've gone after the Palestinians even worse...

    LinkOpensChest_wav ,
    @LinkOpensChest_wav@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    May I screenshot and reshare this? I'll blot out your name.

    doubtingtammy ,

    Lol go for it

    yessikg ,
    @yessikg@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    As an immigrant, I'm terrified of Trump being president again

    doubtingtammy ,

    As a trans person, same. I will personally be much, much safer if Dems win in November

    UNY0N ,

    It's not about support. It's not about 100% agreement with Biden's policies. It's about using your vote as a tactical choice to influece the government as best you can.

    Each US citizen has three options: vote for Trump, vote for Biden, or don't vote. For me it's clear what the only viable choice is.

    By all means protest. By all means vote undecided in the primary. Of course we should use other means to put pressure on someone like Biden to change his policies. But at the end of the day he's playing the tactical game too. And so is Israel, btw. They know that the US is weakened by the election cycle, that Biden's hands are tied right now by the need to retain centrist votes.

    It's a practical decision, that should be made not based on an ideal world, but based on the real world in which we currently live and the options we actually have.

    Cowbee ,

    How does commiting to voting for Biden this far out from the election influence his policy? If he knows he has the leftist vote, why would he change? Why would leftists give up the only leverage allowed to them to continue genocide and liberalism, rather than protest and force concessions from Biden?

    doubtingtammy ,

    I just want to add: this isn't only a leftists thing. This is a Michigan thing. It's Muslims and Arabs who are watching their brethren slaughtered.

    EndlessNightmare ,

    This is a key point. Biden is playing a dangerous game if he is serious about winning this.

    I have no stats to back this, but I'd wager that leftists are more willing to concede and vote for Biden than Muslims and Arabs.

    UNY0N ,

    It doesn't. We have limited options, the system is flawed.

    Cowbee ,

    So then protest against Biden as hard as you can, now.

    UNY0N ,

    Agreed.

    juergen ,

    Absolutely do that. But still vote against Trump in November. And due to the aforementioned flaws, in a tight race, abstaining or voting 3rd party may be ideologically superior, but tactically ill-advised.

    knightly ,
    @knightly@pawb.social avatar

    Make up your mind, do you want people to protest or to make themselves safely ignorable by promising their votes six months in advance?

    inb4_FoundTheVegan , (edited )
    @inb4_FoundTheVegan@lemmy.world avatar

    f there's a single bone in your body that cares about the lives of your trans friends you will too.

    Hey hi, it's me, your trans friend. And you need to put this energy towards protesting Biden instead of leftists. I honestly feel like you are low key getting trolled and missing the point?

    Like, seriously, we all know "shithole countries" Trump would be worse on every single issue, including and especially Gaza. But it's six months till the election, PLENTLY of time for a course change by Biden. Absolutely a second Trump term scares the 💩 out of me. So i appreciate where you are coming from, but until it's November, I think pressing Dems and trusting leftists to do whats right day of is the most good y'all can do.

    force ,

    trusting leftists to do whats right

    i can't trust leftists because leftists are stupid. look how they lost italy, the leftists splintered and refused to work together because of petty shit which allowed the right including literal fascists to take over the government. this is the same type of dumb stuff that happens everywhere with leftists, because of their "holier than thou" attitude.

    i will not leave the election's outcome in the leftists' hands because they always fuck it up when that's the case. they always refuse to cooperate with the enemies of their enemy because they don't see them as left enough, despite it being the only option to not have their long-term goals permanently blocked off, and the country always devolves into diet fascism afterwards. it has lost us many nations throughout history, so no thanks.

    Cowbee ,

    This is actually straight up revisionism, it was the Liberals who sided with fascists, rather than working with Leftists to stop the fascists, that directly allowed for Hitler and Mussolini to come to power.

    force ,

    I'm not sure what you mean by "the Liberals" but I'm not referring to pre-WW2. I'm referring to right now. The current state of Italy. The one where leftists had the government, and then completely screwed up in the face of a rising right-wing threat because they decided they don't agree with some of the things the other leftists were doing.

    Cowbee ,

    Ah, fair. I am not as familiar with modern Italy, but it sounds like refusing to work together is a two-way street, though I would love to see an example of what you're specifically referring to.

    force , (edited )

    The easiest (although not best) example for Italy is the PM. The previous center-left politicians in office were by no means perfect PMs, but the left's infighting and the ensuing breakup of the coalition of various left and center-left parties caused Draghi to resign, and the next (and current) PM is Giorgia Meloni who is an actual fascist who has on multiple occasions reminisced of the good old days with Mussolini in charge and a good economy. Nowadays with hindsight people miss the preceding leftist PMs and think they were actually pretty good after all, but it's too late for that. The country has already started a tumble towards the right and it'd be extremely hard to get it out, especially considering that the left still is refusing to work together.

    There were other factors, such as the left in Italy generally tending anti-Ukraine and the population's concerns about immigration, as well as the right focusing a lot on anti-LGBTQ rhetoric/paranoia (Italy is a very catholic nation so this was an effective strategy), but the most important factor and the ultimate killing blow was the left breaking apart.

    Cowbee ,

    There's definitely a lot more to it, than that. I'd have to research more, because historically it's always the Liberals who refuse to work with Leftists against fascists.

    Kalysta ,

    Just like now with a bunch if liberals filling up my feed with vote blue no matter who bullshit.

    Benjamin Netanyahu himself could be running as the democratic nominee and they’d tell me he’s better than trump.

    He isn’t. Netanyahu and trump are two peas in a pod.

    knightly ,
    @knightly@pawb.social avatar

    Italy isn't real, it was made up by the House of Savoy to justify conquering adjacent city-states.

    Syrc ,

    There were other factors, such as the left in Italy generally tending anti-Ukraine

    Wait, what do you mean? So far I think I’ve only seen some leftists be against sending weapons (which is still a stupid position to take considering the situation), but nothing explicitly anti-Ukraine and absolutely not the majority. Did I miss something?

    Harbinger01173430 ,

    I refuse to make a choice between trash, garbage and shit. /S

    P.s.: we need a hard reset of everything

    Leate_Wonceslace , (edited )
    @Leate_Wonceslace@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    People need to understand that it's possible to vote against genocide.

    No, it doesn't matter that he's an active participant in the apparatus that's creating the genocide, because if he's in office there's less genocide. Which is the important part, and pretending otherwise is sophistry. If you abstain from voting, you are increasing the likelihood of more genocide and if you discourage others from voting, you are an active participant in the overall social apparatus that is probabilistically increasing the amount of genocide.

    The utility calculation is dead simple: more votes for Biden in key states makes more genocide less likely, and discouraging people from voting for Biden makes more genocide more likely. Therefore, discouraging people from voting for Biden is a pro-genocide strategy and voting for Biden in battleground states is an anti-genocide strategy. I live in a solid blue state, so I reserve the right to vote third party, but I will also encourage other people to vote for Biden.

    You should vote for Biden unless you live in a solid blue state, and even then it's not a bad idea.

    Edit: grammar correction

    Mirshe ,

    Even if you're in a solid blue state, vote for Biden. Because you don't know if it's your vote that pushes your state over that line.

    Leate_Wonceslace ,
    @Leate_Wonceslace@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    I think your stance on the issue is entirely reasonable.

    Ferrous ,

    The endgame of your utility calculation is genocidal. 30 years from now, I suspect you'll still be blasting this "vote blue no matter who" nonsense when the choice is between a dem supporting 5 genocides and a repub supporting 10 genocides. You've been anchor biased hard as fuck.

    Regalia ,

    In your hypothetical 30 years in the future scenario, this would still be a "more genocide" and "less genocide" pick.
    We should never have genocide but there's no way to express that in the US binary voting system, so the choice would have to be tactical.

    What do you propose instead?

    nomous ,

    Let's suppose there are going to be genocides, what's better, 5 or 10?

    Ferrous ,

    Thank you for defining anchor bias in such a succinct comment.

    nomous ,

    Thanks for not answering a very simple question.

    joenforcer ,

    What's your plan that makes the endgame not genocidal? Remember to make it fit reality.

    Ferrous ,

    You say "make it fit reality", but why do I feel like what you really mean is "make sure it does not at all challenge US hegemony".

    If your ecocidal political project whose institutions were devised a blink ago by 30 year old slavers starts going genocidal, your project has lost the right to exist. To put it plainly, I think we all have a duty to start thinking about what dismantling the genocidal US empire would look like: reading marx, getting armed, building networks, embracing anti-capitalism, and preparing for this country's undeniably inevitable backslide into fascism.

    Syrc ,

    reading marx, getting armed, building networks, embracing anti-capitalism, and preparing for this country’s undeniably inevitable backslide into fascism.

    Voting Biden doesn’t prevent you from doing this, you know. Rather, it would probably make it easier.

    Leate_Wonceslace ,
    @Leate_Wonceslace@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    I'm a transhumanist; my endgame is the abolition of all hardships including involuntary death. I want as many as possible among the those alive today to experience the universe beyond the fading of the last stellar remnants. That means clawing and fighting in every way I can and know how to allow as many people alive now to continue living. That means less genocide is better than more genocide, which in turn means that the immediate goal is making a Biden victory as likely as possible as I prepare more long-term projects. The long-term projects eliminate genocide. The Short term projects mitigate genocide. More successful short term projects increases the likelihood of more successful long-term projects.

    In short: it is incredibly small-minded, presumptuous, and uncharitable of you to assume that I think voting is the only part of this massive game. Fuck off.

    Xoriff ,

    Wow how edgy. I don't like either candidate so I'll protest-stay-home. As if not voting is a form of protest.

    Actually I'm legitimately curious. Where did that idea come from? Where did you get the idea that voting = endorsement.

    If you were stranded in the wilderness and your options were to eat bug1 or bug2, would you choose to starve to death because "well, I just don't want people to think that I enjoy eating cockroach". Get over yourself and your childish mindset. Choosing not to participate is still making a choice.

    Maybe when the maga fanatics come for your lgbt+ friends and family you'll think differently. Or maybe not. I don't know you or how comfortable you are with the maga end-game.

    makyo ,

    Step 1: defeat Trump
    Step 2: help reshape Democratic party

    Because the fact is, if we don't do step 1 first, we'll have our work cut out for us the next four or more years just being back in 'The Resistance'. Which you know isn't going to make the Dems more liberal, it's going to pull them to the right as more dissatisfied Trump voters finally peel off.

    On the other hand, the more resounding of a defeat we can dish out to the GQP and MAGA, the easier it will be to send them into the wilderness to regroup politically so we can focus all of our energies on the Democratic party.

    Cowbee , (edited )

    Not advocating for voting third party, but how do you genuinely plan on reshaping the democrat party, and how would this time be different, compared to the past?

    LinkOpensChest_wav ,
    @LinkOpensChest_wav@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    This is my question too. I'm old (Gen X), and I've never seen the Democrats acting progressive. The last time I had hope was in 08 when I volunteered for the Obama campaign, only for him to out himself as yet another conservative wearing progressive clothes once he took office.

    Cowbee ,

    The correct answer is that politicians are not simply groups of "good" and "evil" people, but people acting in the interests of the US state, and by extension the wealthy Capitalists that guide it.

    Democrats are not a party of positive, incremental change, even if that's how they position themselves. They act swiftly in the direction of liberalism, and only make concessions to leftists and progressives when they become threatening, not when leftists cooperate.

    Waiting and voting harder for the least worst candidates just continues their existing trends, if the Dems had overwhelming support they would continue to do the bare minimum.

    It's not a coincidence that the GOP is far more radically fascist, that's where they get their votes! That's why the GOP manages to do a lot of damage, because if they didn't, they would get tossed aside for another party. They cling on with barely enough support to occasionally get elected despite Democrat majority.

    LinkOpensChest_wav ,
    @LinkOpensChest_wav@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    I wish I could upvote this one more than once. This is spot on, I think.

    Cowbee ,

    Maybe Marx had some good ideas, that's all I'm saying, haha.

    LinkOpensChest_wav ,
    @LinkOpensChest_wav@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    I think "Marx had some good ideas" is a statement leftists of every ideology can agree on!

    makyo ,

    Sorry I wasn't clear - I'm saying if you care about reshaping the Dems, you do it after we defeat Trump.

    There is no guarantee it will be different this time, that's politics. But giving up on it isn't an option - politics happens to us whether we are active or not. But if you're hoping for change, it'll be a lot harder to see if Trump gets reelected. I promise you that.

    go_go_gadget ,

    The moment Trump was defeated in 2020 liberal and moderates did exactly what they always do: demand priority over leftists and progressives in every policy disagreement and Biden was happy to oblige.

    No. Moderate voters, liberal voters, the DNC, establishment Democrats and Biden will all reshape now or lose to Trump. Make a choice.

    makyo ,

    I'm sorry but this is basically the same argument that I got multiple others in this thread so instead of answering again, I'm going to ask you a question.

    What exactly is y'alls game plan then? How do you think you'll benefit by punishing Biden and helping get Trump elected?

    go_go_gadget ,

    Your question attempts to hold progressives and leftists to a different standard than moderates and liberals.

    What is the game plan of moderates, liberals, establishment Democrats and Biden? How do they think they'll benefit by refusing to make material compromises with leftists and progressives?

    Cowbee ,

    That same line was told during 2020, 2016, 2008, 2000, and so forth. Where is the leftist concession? Where is the Democratic party being pushed? How are you planning on achieving change?

    makyo ,

    You're basically just repeating yourself now. Like it or not, you're parroting the played out lines that the Trumpist want us to repeat to strengthen their hand.

    Politics isn't easy but 'burn it down because they're not catering to me' is not a responsible vote this year.

    Cowbee ,

    When will it be time? How do you plan on shaping dems? You're repeating yourself here.

    makyo ,

    I don't know what you're even asking - how do I personally plan to shape the party? If I could wave a magic wand I would but obviously it's something that is shaped by the collective and we all need to be engaged in the various areas we are passionate about.

    This 'cater to me or else' sort of nihilism is the laziest sort of attitude and I get really tired of seeing it in liberal circles. I can tell you're passionate and are probably very politically active in your own ways, but so many people seem to think that withholding their vote will sove the problem and that it then somehow absolves them of having to do anything else.

    Cowbee ,

    You're wrong on quite a few things here.

    How can a leftist meaninfully convince a liberal Capitalist party to move leftward, rather than continuing liberalism? Seriously speaking, if I am a leftist, and I want Leftist change, how do you think I should go about doing that?

    It's not nihilism, it's not liberalism, and it's not "cater to me or else," that's pure condescension. I am also not planning on witholding my vote, I want genuine leftist change.

    Why does promising to vote for liberalism, a right wing ideology, help Leftists unless the DNC feels threatened by a lack of progressive support and thus concedes?

    makyo ,

    If you want leftist change you keep doing the things you are hopefully already doing - joining political groups you are aligned with, making calls, donating, running for office, getting your friends involved, join a union or help start one, etc. etc. And you realize that it isn't going to happen overnight - it may not even happen in your lifetime. It's not easy or magic, especially with the things you seem to care about on the further left of the spectrum. That's going to be a steep hill to climb.

    Cowbee ,

    Do you honestly believe that the left can vote socialism into existence within a liberal Capitalist framework?

    Kalysta ,

    You told me this last fucking election and nothing has changed.

    I lost my reproductive freedoms

    I fear for my wife’s life whenever we have to travel out of state - she’s trans

    Clarance fucking Thomas is threatening to undo gay marriage.

    The democrats have done NOTHING for me. And instead i’m watching half of them cheerlead a fucking genocide of brown people in the middle east

    How are they different from republicans? How is biden different than trump? He’s trying to pass trump’s immigration plan while letting Bibi murder his neighbors.

    Nah fam. I’m officially giving up. People like you who refuse to hold democrats to account have made life worse for everyone.

    makyo ,

    I'm sorry but you are blaming the wrong people for all of this

    bigMouthCommie ,
    @bigMouthCommie@kolektiva.social avatar

    no, no... i think they're onto something

    makyo ,

    It's clear y'all are trolls at this point

    Syrc ,

    This is a really contrived hypothesis and probably wishful thinking considering the current state of the world, but hear me out:

    You know how the Overton window gets shifted? Rightwing voters grew a lot in the US and Democrats had to get more to the right to appeal to them and not keep losing.

    We just need to force the reverse. If Democrats keep winning elections Republicans will be forced to put out a candidate that’s more palatable to leftists sooner or later. Someone who isn’t a literal movie villain. At that point, Democrats will lose their only selling point (being the alternative to Satan himself), and they will have to actually push for leftist policies to get people to vote.

    This can only happen if Democrats win a lot of times in a row though. Even one Republican win will ensure them that they can keep pushing fascists and have a chance to win.

    Cowbee ,

    The thing I generally disagree with is the idea that Democrats would move leftward, and not just further into Liberalism. Even Social Democracies in the Nordic countries are seeing a decrease in the welfare state, just like Reagan did with FDR-era policies.

    go_go_gadget ,

    We defeated Trump in 2020. Nothing changed and Biden spent his entire term catering to liberals and moderates.

    Xin_shill ,

    And republicans and fascists and corporations and Wall Street.. hmmm but he did almost cancel a lot of student debt, but actual trying to cancel most people’s student debt was “too high”. No cracking down on predatory lending or anything. Plenty of other countries have free college, but its just too damn hard in the worlds richest country, you know jack.

    Earn the vote Biden.

    joenforcer ,

    He can't do it because Congress is too divided because you didn't fucking vote.

    go_go_gadget ,

    Who didn't vote? What senate races were reasonably within reach that people didn't show up for? Same question for the house.

    gmtom ,
    @gmtom@lemmy.world avatar

    Me when I don't understand what the house and senate are.

    makyo ,

    Sorry if I am missing your point - did you think he'd cater to conservatives?

    go_go_gadget , (edited )

    Lol! I expected him to make material compromises with the millions of progressives and leftists who held their nose and voted for him. The fact that you seem completely unaware of these factions Democrats depend on to win elections is just... a perfect example of how out of touch liberal and moderate voters are. They can't win elections without our votes. They need to start acting like it.

    makyo ,

    Okay so you're saying he isn't liberal enough I guess. I am pretty far left myself and would of course love more but I would argue that he's also gotten a lot of pretty great leftist stuff accomplished.

    And while we should absolutely hold his feet to the fire to pull him further left, saying "earn my vote or else" with the 'or else' being Trump, is not a very practical threat. Like a cut off your nose to spite your face kind of stupid.

    If you want to see the things you care about set back another four years OR MORE than sure, don't vote for Biden this year.

    Cowbee ,

    How has Biden meaningfully moved America towards some form of worker ownership of the Means of Production, and away from Capitalist ownership of the Means of Production?

    When will the Democrats move to the left? Will it be next election? What about the one after that? Why has this same line been tossed for decades, prevent fascism now, leftism later?

    I ask this as a leftist that will probably hold my nose and vote for Biden: why on Earth do you imagine the DNC will ever move leftwards, instead of remaining liberal right-wingers?

    go_go_gadget ,

    Okay so you’re saying he isn’t liberal enough I guess. I am pretty far left myself and would of course love more but

    I'm not trying to tell you what to call yourself but if you spend all your time and energy arguing against leftists instead of moderates and liberals what exactly makes you left? Call yourself whatever you like but your actions are indistinguishable from a moderate or a liberal.

    I would argue that he’s also gotten a lot of pretty great leftist stuff accomplished.

    🙄Oh please, do tell me what material leftist victory was made by Biden. A bunch of corporate handouts? Not leftist. Passing the IRA? That was the BBB stripped of everything leftists and progressives were excited about. Maybe you're so delusional you think blocking a rail strike is a leftist victory. Or maybe you think shipping weapons to a country committing genocide is some kind of leftist victory. Or raising the defense budget. Or forcing federal workers back to the office. Or setting Yellen and Powell on a war path against American workers.

    You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

    If you want to see the things you care about set back another four years OR MORE than sure, don’t vote for Biden this year.

    The stuff I care about was already held back four years with Biden.

    Like a cut off your nose to spite your face kind of stupid.

    Yeah I've heard this plenty. You realize this cuts both ways right? Moderate and liberal voters refusing to compromise with leftists and progressives is every bit the same. Why are you trying to hold progressives and leftists to a different standard?

    makyo ,

    I'm arguing with other leftists because I have hope that I can help them make the right choice strategically while countering the rampant rightwing disinfo which like it or not, that's what you're parroting.

    go_go_gadget ,

    Again, you're indistinguishable from a moderate or a liberal. You talk like one, you act like one, you vote like one. Regardless of what you believe you're not doing anything that would accomplish anything we're fighting for.

    makyo ,

    Abstaining from voting this election will drive the leftist cause backwards so not accomplishing anything would be much preferrable.

    go_go_gadget ,

    Four years of Biden has driven us backwards. If moderates and liberals refuse to compromise with us now when they themselves believe democracy is at stake what does that tell you? They never will.

    I am done propping up their trash procorporate candidates. If they aren't willing to fight fascism head on then it's not a choice between fascism and democracy it's a choice between fascism now or later.

    I choose now. You're free to make your own choice.

    Kalysta ,

    And you will make the exact same argument next election. And the one after that. And the one after that.

    Ultragigagigantic ,
    @Ultragigagigantic@lemmy.world avatar

    Fuck that, pass electoral reform so people can vote 3rd party with no spoiler effect and leave these dinosaur political parties in the past where they belong.

    makyo ,

    Do you think it'll be easier or harder to get electoral reform passed if Trump is elected?

    WraithGear ,
    @WraithGear@lemmy.world avatar

    I think that the threat of losing to trump is the most powerful leverage progressives and leftists have at getting actual reformation of the party, and this election is the democrats race to lose.

    So right now everyone who is pissed at Biden or the democrats, should be letting their anger known and be as loud as possible about it

    go_go_gadget ,

    Agreed.

    Either moderate and liberal voters along with establishment Democrats and Biden make a big pivot or this will go down in history as a lesson: do not fuck with labor.

    WraithGear ,
    @WraithGear@lemmy.world avatar

    Except step one is repeated every. damn. time.

    Its never time to reshape the Democratic Party. If the democrats win, it will be too early to fix the Democratic Party for millions of reasons. And four years pass and every campaign promise is ignored, and all of a sudden it’s back to 1. Beat the new threat to “democracy” 2. Fix the Democratic Party… ad nauseam forever.

    makyo ,

    It's never too early to help shape the Democratic party, absolutely do it now. But it's a long process and if you can't see how it has changed in the last 20 years already I don't know what to tell you. And beating Trump is priority #1 if we're going to continue on that path.

    Syrc ,

    We can’t do that if people don’t vote actual leftist in the primaries because “commies won’t win the general”.

    Pan_Ziemniak ,

    Bc boomers have strangeholded our govt for decades. Its convenient that now that theyre dying off this is the shit we get to try and elect the actual genocidal maniac and not the dinosaur keeping to the same foreign policy the US has kept for 70 yrs in order to keep our other allies from thinking we will abandon them the way we did the Kurds or Ukraine.

    TankovayaDiviziya ,

    If I am an American voting in the election I wouldn't have voted for either Hillary or Trump in 2016 but I will definitely vote for Biden then and now.

    Hillary is full of baggage which is too many to ignore. Trump, in my view at the time, isn't a fascist but a fascist-adjacent and I thought his presence sets a dangerous precedence. After the first four years, that proved correct. He became drunk with power and became a full blown fascist.

    Biden definitely is a better choice in any elections against Trump. He has less baggage and still did surprisingly well that is favourable with the left.

    rutellthesinful ,

    Not voting isn’t going to stop the genocide in Gaza.

    maybe it will stop the next one though

    if democrats learn that allowing a genocide to unfold on their watch is going to lose them elections, you can bet they'll put more effort into stopping it

    if democrats learn that allowing genocide to unfold on their watch actually doesn't make that much difference, why would they bother themselves to stop it?

    A vote is not an unconditional endorsement

    a vote for a candidate is an endorsement for all of their policies, whether you want it to be or not

    your reluctant vote looks exactly the same on the tally as somebody else's wholehearted vote, and votes are what politicians base their platforms on.

    If you vote third party you might as well stay home.

    this is just a misconception

    if the democrats lose a million votes to a third party, then yeah, they're going to modify their policies next time around

    Chadus_Maximus ,

    next time

    Woah, calm down buddy. No reason why there should be a next time. Republicans are already creating projects as if there isn't.

    rutellthesinful ,

    if you think voting for biden this time is more important, then by all means do that

    just understand the choice you're making, rather than pretending one doesn't exist

    Soulg ,

    We understand we are voting for the candidate who realizes and disapproves of Israel's treatment of Gaza (the other one would triple down and encourage it harder) as well as the candidate who supports Ukraine (the other one would give it to putin for free) and also the candidate who won't genocide LGBT community within our own country.

    Anyone who doesn't vote Biden does not care about Gaza. Not at all. They're just virtue signaling and afraid to admit they want to vote for Trump.

    Cowbee ,

    That's absolutely terrible analysis. Just because you personally believe something doesn't mean leftists that disagree with you want to vote directly for a fascist, and I say that as a leftist that is probably going to vote for Biden. I'm just not delusional about it, Biden hasn't stopped the genocide at all when everyone knew it was a genocide months ago.

    LinkOpensChest_wav ,
    @LinkOpensChest_wav@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    Yeah, it always strikes me as being super in bad faith when people accuse leftists of supporting Trump if we don't pledge undying support to Biden. Keep that shit in places like reddit and lemmy.world imo (and actually, don't even keep it there either because it's bullshit)

    rutellthesinful ,

    Biden has taken months to stop veto-ing UN votes on Gaza, and even when finally abstaining, his administration pulls its punches by claiming the vote is somehow "non-binding".

    Israel is still bombing Gaza, even after the ceasefire vote.

    Biden says he cares about Gaza. His actions say otherwise.

    Cowbee ,

    He's currently gambling that he can have his cake and eat it too, ie continue supporting Israel as a valuable foothold for the American Empire in the Middle East while also paying lip service to leftists.

    We need to make sure he actually feels the heat of his actions and that they may cost him the election for him to meaningfully cease aid to Israel.

    Ultragigagigantic ,
    @Ultragigagigantic@lemmy.world avatar

    Republicans trying to dismantle democracy and install an authoritarian government?

    Sounds serious.

    So when are democrats dropping gun control? Clearly there is a imminent existential threat to our nation!

    SocialistRA.org

    Leate_Wonceslace ,
    @Leate_Wonceslace@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    The United States won't be destroyed by a handful of people not getting off their collective ass on election day and 3rd parties aren't viable.

    rutellthesinful ,

    3rd parties aren’t viable

    this is just a misconception

    if the democrats lose a million votes to a third party, then yeah, they're going to modify their policies next time around

    jumjummy ,

    Yeah and meanwhile Trump wins and we’re all fucked. Just keep patting yourself on the back as we all sink. The OP is absolutely correct.

    Don’t be fooled, this is absolutely the angle foreign disinformation agents are pushing. “Genocide Joe” is no different than “Bernie or Bist”, he’ll, or “Stop the steal”

    core ,

    Don’t be fooled, this is absolutely the angle foreign disinformation agents are pushing. “Genocide Joe”

    I don't think this has any proof.

    Habahnow ,

    Lol political threads at night on lemmy are good proof.
    So weird how at night, all of lemmy is suddenly not liking the idea of voting for Biden, or voting 3rd party, when during regular American hours it's not the case.
    You'd have to be pretty ignorant or even part of the disinformation to not notice

    Ultragigagigantic ,
    @Ultragigagigantic@lemmy.world avatar

    "Foreign oligarchs are taking over!" - US oligarchs probably

    core ,

    if this were true it would be trivial to provide links

    joenforcer , (edited )

    Edit: Disregard. Previous comment broke site rules and I take it back. I apologize.

    core ,

    this is ad hominem. it's also a violation of the sitewide rule about inclusion and acceptance:

    It means not telling people that you know their experiences better than they do.

    joenforcer ,

    You're right. Forgot where I was. Apologies.

    core ,

    big of you

    Habahnow ,

    Literally look at this comment section: people are discouraging voting for Joe biden. What could the result be if everybody listened except that Trump would win the election? How does that even make sense if you care for the people in Gaza to get a new president that wants Isreal to "hurry up and finish up in Gaza"?

    "oh but Biden isn't perfect! The democratic party should only have a perfect candidate!" That's not how real life works, and especially not the crappy voting system the US has. Either you help Biden wins the presidency, where he is at least trying to discourage Israel from further violence, or where Trump wins and he will continue to give Israel a thumbs up.

    "but Genocide!" Yeah these are shitting options, but do you want more Genocide or less? There's only one path with the potential for less genocide and not voting or voting for trump will only incur more of it.

    core ,

    What could the result be if everybody listened except that Trump would win the election?

    i expect to have at least 4 names on my ballot. i don't need to vote for trump or biden, and voting for either of them is promoting bad things.

    Habahnow ,

    the other 2 names on the ballot won't have any positive affect. they won't get elected, they won't win the state, and it will only make it easier for Trump.

    core ,

    voting for bad people is bad

    core ,

    “oh but Biden isn’t perfect! The democratic party should only have a perfect candidate!”

    can you link this?

    core ,

    Either you help Biden wins the presidency, where he is at least trying to discourage Israel from further violence,

    i don't believe he's trying to discourage anything because if he was serious, it would have stopped.

    core ,

    There’s only one path with the potential for less genocide and not voting or voting for trump will only incur more of it.

    voting for biden is bad, regardless of who else is running.

    rutellthesinful ,

    if you think voting for biden this time is more important, then by all means do that

    just understand the choice you're making, rather than pretending one doesn't exist

    Ultragigagigantic ,
    @Ultragigagigantic@lemmy.world avatar

    Sounds like passing comprehensive electoral reform is not only the right thing to do, but it is also crucial to the stability of the country. Republicans obviously hate democracy, and have passed legislation trying to ban switching away from first past the post voting. Do you REALLY want to use the same voting system republicans want? What's the excuse blue states?

    Consider watching a video on First Past the Post voting if you want to know more.

    Thief_of_Crows ,

    Why dont you pressure Biden to stop genociding people then? I have a hard and fast rule about genocide, sorry but present day me doesn't make the rules about who I vote for.

    Vent ,

    Do you believe Trump/Republicans will decrease, maintain, or increase the current genocide levels?

    Xin_shill ,

    I mean Biden spent more on the immigrant wall than Trump, so prob less genocide somehow, seeing as how there is precedent. Funny how none of the presidents tackle the corporation side of the “immigrant problem” by going after people hiring the undocumented if that is such a big problem. You remove the incentive that would slow it down more than trying to torture people at the border no?

    idiomaddict ,

    Buddy, friend, gamer. It’s march. Can you bring this out in six months? There is no reason to fill everyone’s feed up like this and sow political division on the left over seven months before it’s relevant.

    Plus, the pressure looks like it’s working, so a vote for Biden might be a lot more palatable then. A lot of your work might get done automatically

    alcoholicorn , (edited )

    Why are you trying to pressure people to vote for the guy facilitating genocide, instead of for Biden to stop facilitating genocide?

    The only explanations I can come up with are either that you support what he is doing, or on some level, you understand we have no influence on policy and so trying to get Biden to do things that will get people to vote for him is a waste of time.

    This same shit happened when Obama did fuckall about Bush's policies and endlessly compromised. Of course, the voters were blamed when Obama lost the house and senate, and in 2016 too.

    Twentytwodividedby7 ,

    Do you honestly think Trump would even try to negotiate a ceasefire?

    ramenshaman ,

    Trump will do whatever people pay him the most to do as long as it's not upholding his oath of office.

    imnotfromkaliningrad ,
    @imnotfromkaliningrad@lemmy.ml avatar

    obviously trump wouldnt do anything better, but he couldnt possibly do any worse, since there isnt anything more vile than literal genocide! if anything trump is the harm reduction candidate, since he will unintentionally accelerate the inevitable decline of the fascist us empire.

    death to america

    death to israel

    The_Che_Banana ,
    @The_Che_Banana@beehaw.org avatar

    OP explicitly states a vote for Biden isnt a vote for genocide.

    Regardless, Trump would be an absolute nightmare for the Palestinians...so your argument is not in good faith and just want to invoice emotional responses.

    OP recognizes the system there is right now in the US is badly flawed, but since nobody did shit about fixing it these last 4 years you have a choice of pinching your nose and swallowing bad medicine or never have a voice again.

    alcoholicorn ,

    Israel is already getting all they want from the US, you really can't call a side participating in ethnic cleansing a lesser evil, we're already at 100% evil.

    But this misses the point, to even be posting this shows that you have no hope that Biden will stop the genocide. If you expected the democrats to listen to the people whose votes they need, you'd be telling us he's gonna do the thing we all want and stop the genocide any day now, and begging the dems to not fuck this up.

    The_Che_Banana ,
    @The_Che_Banana@beehaw.org avatar

    You can make the same argument as a christofascist about abortion, they consider all forms of birth control genocide and are single issue voters.

    Politicians, like corporations, will never change unless forced to, I really dont expect anything from the democratic party except the status quo until enough incremental changes at the local and state level finally start pulling the countey back to the left...the other option is absolutely worse.

    Being a single issue voter is ridiculous, but you do you.

    alcoholicorn ,

    The christofascists's representatives fall over each other trying to show how christian and fascist they are, implement the policies the christofascists want by any means, and in return the christofacists vote for them.

    The democrats either do fuckall or what the republicans want, and then tell us better things aren't possible or it's our fault for not voting harder.

    Guess which one is a more effective electoral strategy?

    Thief_of_Crows ,

    Well in that case, I'm explicitly stating that a vote for Biden is a vote for a dog taking a crap right in your mouth...

    That's not how it works, if you vote for the guy doing a genocide, you are voting for genocide.

    I am highly doubtful trump would be worse. All his rhetoric is about ending the conflict, and he was significantly more peaceful than every other president dating back to Reagan at least. He got us out of Afghanistan and didn't start a new war, unlike every other president since Reagan.

    Balinares ,

    I am highly doubtful trump would be worse.

    Lol.

    Vent ,

    🙈

    HappyFrog ,

    Thinking Trump won't be worse just shows your privilege. There are thousands of immigrants that can't survive being deported, millions of women that will lose their rights, and countless lgbt people that might get murdered.

    Just because your life is unaffected by who is in power doesn't mean you can throw every body else under the bus.

    The_Che_Banana ,
    @The_Che_Banana@beehaw.org avatar

    A well thought out, succinct, and highly intelligent comment.

    juergen ,

    So! Much!! This!!!

    ramenshaman ,

    I agree with you but can we please leave "This!" behind us?

    juergen ,

    Point taken. Reddit habits die hard.

    CabbageRelish ,

    I’m voting for the people I most like on the ballot. Isn’t that what you’re supposed to do?

    Zagorath ,
    @Zagorath@aussie.zone avatar

    No, not in FPTP. You vote for the candidate who you least disagree with out of those with a reasonable chance of victory, or you waste your vote.

    CabbageRelish ,

    So… by voting my conscience I don’t get a vote? I was literally brought up with the idea that if enough people pressure one of the parties one way or the other they might start embracing your ideas. And that was supposed to be how this worked.

    subignition ,
    @subignition@fedia.io avatar

    The time to advance your ideas is everywhen except the presidential election, basically. At this timing, voting your conscience will really only be contributing to the spoiler effect.

    CabbageRelish , (edited )

    I don’t have millions of dollars to advance my ideas, all I have is my vote. If they really want it they better buckle down and earn it.

    subignition ,
    @subignition@fedia.io avatar

    I'm sorry, that is a ridiculous statement, but I'm not awake enough to go into it in detail. Hoping someone else can help if you were being sincere.

    rutellthesinful ,

    why on earth would any party listen to what you have to say if you preface everything you're campaigning for with "by the way, i'm still going to vote for you"

    your vote is all they want in this scenario

    it would be like opening a negotiation with "by the way, i'm absolutely going to pay whatever price you think is fair at the end of this, but i'd like you to consider giving me a discount anyway"

    Vent ,

    There are other elections, primaries, donations, and general social pressure. The sad part is you're right, committing to vote for the lesser evil every time does reduce pressure and influence. However, it's not a flaw in the voting strategy, it's a flaw in the voting system.

    The alternative is to abstain or vote for someone with no chance, in which case you end up with the greater evil in office who has four years to inflict permanent damage on people and further corrupt the system. You may show the less-evil party that you don't agree with them and that they need to rethink some policies, but the point is moot if they aren't in power and now the greater evil can do things like appoint three SCOTUS justices, irreversibly damage the environment, and pass voting "reform" to lessen the impact of your future votes. Your message is sent, yes, but the overall impact is bad for everyone and reduces your future influence.

    In a FPTP system, that's the sad reality we are given. There really is no better choice than to vote for the lesser evil in the presidential election. That's why ranked choice voting would be such a game changer, then you truly can vote for your favorite without helping your least favorite gain office.

    You have more influence the smaller the election is, which is partly why it's so important to vote in every election, especially your local elections. Local elections also more directly impact your community and broad elections are impacted by them too! Nearly all higher-up politicians start local, and the larger parties look to local elections to see what gets people out to vote. Plus, if you hate all of your options in a local election, it's much more possible to run yourself and actually have a change at winning. You aren't just voting for candidates either, there's almost always projects, new laws, and funding allocations to vote for locally.

    rutellthesinful ,

    other elections, primaries

    but those are both votes

    ideally, yeah, if you wanted to exercise pressure on the biden administration, you wouldn't withhold your vote in this specific election, but those "other elections" have already passed

    you could vote differently for the house and senate, but arguably that might actually lead to a worse outcome

    donations

    if you're very rich, then maybe, but most people aren't

    general social pressure

    general social pressure means very little without votes to back it up

    sanders has a tidal wave of social pressure behind him, but then lost the primary, so nothing changed

    it's why every time a politician tries to campaign for young voters, they crash and burn, because while young voters often inflict the most social pressure, they never actually go and vote

    The alternative is to abstain or vote for someone with no chance

    the point isn't to vote for the person to get them into office

    the point is to vote for the person whose policies you prefer, so that you shift the other candidates closer to that position

    yeah, 4 years of a very bad candidate is worse than 4 years of a meh candidate, but if you vote that way forever your candidate will never be anything more than meh

    appoint three SCOTUS justices, irreversibly damage the environment, and pass voting “reform” to lessen the impact of your future votes

    if you think this outweighs the benefit of improving the democrat position going forward, and that's a perfectly reasonable position to have, then sure vote for them

    but don't act like you never had any choice in the matter, or that voting for somebody else would be meaningless

    GardenVarietyAnxiety ,

    You were lied to. It should work that way but it doesn't, and that -really- sucks.

    But now what do you do with that understanding? Do you continue to try and will the lie into being, or do you act according to the truth?

    rutellthesinful ,

    vote for the person you like the most

    voting for the democrats come hell or high water is how you end up with two candidates nobody wants to vote for

    Ultragigagigantic ,
    @Ultragigagigantic@lemmy.world avatar

    FPTP stands for First Past The Post voting for anyone wondering what the acronym means.

    bigfoot ,

    In the primaries but not the general

    Tar_alcaran ,

    Also, trump appointed 3 supreme court justices, who will be there FOR LIFE.

    catharso ,

    Assassinate 'em, you say?

    No, just kidding.

    I'm just someone watching from Europe, getting a little concerned 😔

    Tar_alcaran ,

    Same here. Watching from Europe, and going "hmm, I think we had a few very bloody revolutions to solve these kinds of problems"

    phoneymouse ,

    Thanks to leftists who wouldn’t vote

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