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Please, for the love of God, VOTE!

I don't like Biden either, but anyone with half a brain knows there are two choices in the 2020 election. If we had a sane voting system, voting third party might be worth it, but as it stands, no one but you knows your favorite candidate exists and unless you want to become their campaign manager that will still be true in November. Even if you did, and even if you convinced two thirds of the people who would otherwise have voted for Biden to vote for your chosen candidate instead, Trump would still win because half the country voted for him and your guy only got a third. If you vote third party you might as well stay home.

Not voting isn't going to stop the genocide in Gaza. The US will continue to funnel them arms no matter which candidate wins this November. Trump practically campaigns on how much he hates the Jews and he's publicly told Israel to "finish up their war". He'll also make life a living hell for anyone who isn't a straight cisgender male back here at home.

A vote for a candidate is not an endorsement of them or their policies, it's a statement that you like their policies more than the other guy's, and "sticking it to liberals" and "refusing to support genocide" (that's not what voting for Biden is doing, by the way -- a vote for either candidate is a vote for genocide and a vote for neither is an endorsement of both) is not more important than keeping the furthest right politician America has ever seen out of office.

How incredibly privileged do you have to be to see an entire national election as what will happen in the Middle East and ignore Trump's campaign promises to wipe transgender Americans off the map, and further, to not realize that the same thing will happen in the Middle East regardless of which candidate wins?

I hate Biden as much as every other leftist here. But I'll still vote for him because Trump is worse. If there's a single bone in your body that cares about the lives of your trans friends you will too.

https://files.catbox.moe/cnc9p9.webp

Shadywack ,
@Shadywack@lemmy.world avatar

I really don't see the point in voting when the executive and legislative branches are bought and paid for with candidates I don't approve of.

Bernie Sanders' constituents are incredibly fortunate. The candidates available for my districts oppose socialized medicine, returning stock market regulations (e.g. outlawing stock buybacks), and the 32 hour workweek mandate.

When I have someone I can vote for, then I'll vote. Otherwise fuck it, waste of my time.

Crikeste ,

I ask again, where is the democracy?

nxdefiant ,

If it's not a democracy, then what is it? I think the onus is on you to at least provide a hypothesis.

(And yes, it's a constitutional republic, I'm not here to play word games)

Crikeste ,

Okay. It’s pretty simple. Where do I vote for someone who doesn’t further the capitalistic interest of the United States?

They are ALL united under the umbrella of GET MONEY.

With that, I would say the United States is Totalitarian.

Bartsbigbugbag ,

The concentration camp was never the normal condition for the average gentile German. Unless one were Jewish, or poor and unemployed, or of active leftist persuasion or otherwise openly anti-Nazi, Germany from 1933 until well into the war was not a nightmarish place. All the “good Germans” had to do was obey the law, pay their taxes, give their sons to the army, avoid any sign of political heterodoxy, and look the other way when unions were busted and troublesome people disappeared.

Since many “middle Americans” already obey the law, pay their taxes, give their sons to the army, are themselves distrustful of political heterodoxy, and applaud when unions are broken and troublesome people are disposed of, they probably could live without too much personal torment in a fascist state — some of them certainly seem eager to do so.

- Michael Parenti. (1996). Fascism in a Pinstriped Suit

It’s fascism in a pinstriped suit.

Holzkohlen ,

And we get Trump again because of idiots like you. THAT is why you vote: to prevent a fucking fascist from getting elected.

abracaDavid ,

Bullshit. Blame the useless DNC. They're the ones that we got elected and they've done NOTHING with it except for fuel a genocide.

It is up to the party to make it worth voting for them.

Fuck this bullshit attitude of blaming the voters. It's up to the ones in power.

Everyone hates the way things are going, and the main point of the DNC is to maintain the status quo.
The status quo is going to get all of us killed.

nxdefiant ,

The world is burning, and instead of the bare minimum of voting against the guy holding gas cans, you want to ... complain about the marketing.

wow

bigfoot ,

waste of my time.

It's very nice to have that luxury, but please try to think of the less fortunate who will be hurt most by MAGA policies.

abracaDavid ,

Ah yes. Because the Democrats really have changed things this time around! They really have dealt with the issues that we're all so worried about!

Oh wait! Shit is still exactly the same and none of our big problems have been addressed AT ALL.

In fact, things are worse now because we're paying for a goddamn genocide.

bigfoot ,

things are worse now

I know you really miss 1943 huh

Krauerking ,

What makes being disenfranchised by such a corrupt gerrymandered district that you become disengaged from your own leadership a luxury?

InternetUser2012 ,

This will be the most important election in the history of the united states. You have two choices, Dictator, or Democracy. A no vote is a vote AGAINST Democracy.

OsrsNeedsF2P ,

Lmao typical DNC advertisement regurgitation. This election is not 'the most important election in history'.

Third party of bust

bigfoot ,

Oh wow you're the guy from OPs meme

OsrsNeedsF2P ,

We looking at different memes, or should I clarify my stance further?

Vote for third party or bust. A vote for Democrats or Republicans is the same path we're already on, and nobody likes this path

nxdefiant ,

You're gonna get Bust. Vote third party if you want, that's your right (assuming you're a U.S. citizen of course), but a vote for third party is lowering the bar of victory for the worst human alive to hold that office.

You don't have to understand the consequences of your actions, but that's what they are. More genocide, foot on the accelerator towards climate catastrophe, pouring gasoline on what's left of women's rights and setting them on fire.

It's easy to write "fuck literally everyone except the enemies of my enemies" on a piece of paper and throw it in the trash, I don't understand why you'd go through the trouble of voting if that's all you want to do. There are FAR more effective methods of protest.

go_go_gadget ,

a vote for third party is lowering the bar of victory for the worst human alive to hold that office.

Then tell Biden to stop being a dumbass.

nxdefiant ,

If I had that kind of access I certainly would.

go_go_gadget ,

Sounds like U.S. democracy has already failed then.

Olgratin_Magmatoe ,

You may as well be saying "MAGA or bust".

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vote_splitting

bigfoot ,

MAGA is "bust". OsrsNeedsF2P is saying he is ok with MAGA because he is personally wealthy enough to weather the storm.

Krauerking ,

Yeah that's projection. Hurt people, hurt people. They might just be downtrodden and view a change of suffering to be good enough to support.

The new suffering coming is just a concept and not real, so it's less painful in the now even if it might not be in the future. But that yearning for change is basic and people will support all kinds of stuff if they think it will change their current suffering.

Xanis ,

How do you expect Trump to do as President if he wins?

go_go_gadget ,

You realize Trump is just the tip of the iceberg right? It's not like once he no longer runs the MAGA crowd will disappear. What's your plan for addressing it? Because we held our noses and elected Biden in 2020 and all he's done is fucked around for 3 years.

Xanis ,

Oooh no you don't. You can't do the shitty Manager thing and try to toss this back at me. Answer your own question.

go_go_gadget ,

We've had lots of plans, there were lots of good candidates in the 2020 primaries. They were all rejected by moderates and liberals. We had the BBB, it was rejected by moderates and liberals. We had the rail strike, it was rejected by moderates and liberals. We have proposed lots of plans. They have all been rejected. The onus is not on us to continue providing plans. Moderates and liberals need our votes to win. They don't like our plans but refuse to provide any viable plans of their own.

I'm done making plans. If moderate and liberals want my vote they need to demonstrate it. If Biden wants my vote he needs to demonstrate it. Compromise with us or lose to MAGA. Make a choice.

Mikesomething ,

I hear this every single election.

Dems - "democracy is at stake! THIS IS THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT ELECTION IN YOUR LIFE"

Me - *Holds nose and votes for the lesser evil"

Dems - "thanks guys that was close"
Proceeds to sit around with a thumb in their collective asshole for 4 years.

...

Dems - "Democracy is at stake! REALLY guys - THIS is the most important election ever!"

It's fucking exhausting. If the Dems really wanted people to come out and vote, they would spend less time begging for our votes, and more time representing our collective interests.

multifariace ,

They don't sit around at all! They are out there working hard. Suckling the teet of major donors. Pretending they oppose the Republican party.

Dinsmore ,

You'd think if they really believed their own bs that democracy was at stake, they would do everything to court votes in swing states, such as, idk, the enormous Arab population in Michigan? Biden clearly prioritizes dead Gazan babies over "democracy."

go_go_gadget ,

Right? Why isn't Biden standing in front of a podium begging leftists and progressives to save him? Is his pride worth more than democracy?

mojo_raisin ,

I hear this every single election.

  1. Because as we move into the future with a larger population and worse environmental destruction, the stakes become greater.

  2. Because we've been on the verge of losing our democracy for a couple decades now. I'm almost 50, we've been on the verge since the presidency was taken from Al Gore. It was not this way before that in my lifetime.

You think one election is going to take a nation on the brink to being in safe harbors? This is a battle for democracy that occurs over multiple elections, why is that so hard to understand? You can only repeat what your friends say?

go_go_gadget ,

Biden refused to face fascism head on during his entire term. Instead he decided to focus entirely on pleasing moderates and liberals and burning progressives and leftists at every opportunity. This is Biden's fault.

mojo_raisin ,

Ya, so to punish Biden lets allow an actual fascist to take power and live under that for the rest of our lives. Genius.

go_go_gadget ,

If you focused all this energy you're using to fight your fellow working class Americans against pro-corporate trash candidates and the people who vote for them we'd be in a much better position right now.

MonkRome ,

Oh please, this is everyone's fault, one man doesn't rule alone. We are failing at every level, in every state, in every county, in every city, in nearly every household. As long as people are too comfortable and lazy to take action every day that is NOT election day, election day will continue to be disappointing.

go_go_gadget ,

I agree the presidency isn't all that matters. But it does acutely demonstrate the problem. White boomers dominate the party and prevent any legitimate efforts from being made. If you want to point fingers at the household level start with white boomers.

gmtom ,
@gmtom@lemmy.world avatar

I hear this every single election.

Yeah, weird, it's almost like we've been on a slow march towards fascism for decades and as republicans get more and more radicalised they vote for worse and worse candidates as their nominee every election.... or something.

go_go_gadget ,

we’ve been on a slow march towards fascism for decades

Yes. Including the last three years. See the problem?

gmtom ,
@gmtom@lemmy.world avatar

Yes?? Idk what point you're trying to make here.

go_go_gadget ,

Procorporate Democrats like Biden cannot save us from fascism.

MonkRome ,

Neither can actual fascists, at least one is a slower process. What matters is what we do with the time in between elections. I'll happily vote for a moderate wet fart like Biden so I have 4 more years to educate, 4 more years to inch policy my direction at the local level, 4 more years to work with activists in my community, 4 more years to build bridges of understanding with people I disagree with in the hope for a better future. Giving in to accelerationists just takes away those 4 years entirely, ending any hope for that better future. Soon 70% of these fascists will die of old age, and then maybe we can translate our action and resistance into policy.

go_go_gadget ,

at least one is a slower process

Sounds like you're acknowledging the choice is between fascism now or fascism later yes?

Soon 70% of these fascists will die of old age, and then maybe we can translate our action and resistance into policy.

That's not what will happen. The moment progressives and leftists begin dominating primaries moderates and liberals will stop showing up in general elections. You'll have the same problem we have today. If moderates and liberals actually value democracy they need to start being open to making material compromises with progressives and leftists. If they won't now, they won't ever and if they won't ever it's already over.

Focus your anger at liberals and moderates.

tswiftchair ,

Election of 1860: am i joke to u?

InternetUser2012 ,

There won't be another election if tRump wins. Komrad

go_go_gadget ,

Does Biden know that?

Kalysta ,

Every fucking election in my lifetime has been “the most important in history”

You all have cried wolf too many times. If you get eaten, it’s liberals fault.

InternetUser2012 ,

Aye Komrad

go_go_gadget ,

If it's so important then why isn't Biden doing everything he can to compromise with leftists and progressives? Dude should be standing at a podium begging us like "Please! I'm sorry I blocked the rail strike I won't do it again. Federal workers can continue working remotely. I won't raise the defense budget again. I will fight to block weapon shipments to Israel. Please help me."

Or is this democracy not worth that to him?

InternetUser2012 ,

Lol, troll.

go_go_gadget ,

I'm really not. The fact that it's a legitimate question under these circumstances shows just how pathetic this whole situation is. As Jon Stewart said, if the enemy is at the gates why isn't Biden taking it seriously?

AncientFutureNow , (edited )

As you read through these comments, note that anyone using the phrase "the liberals", followed by some condescending remark, are voting for trump.

Cowbee ,

None of them are voting for Trump. Some may be voting for a third party, some will vote for Biden.

bigfoot ,

I've never heard an actual human talk that way who wasn't deeeep into MAGA.

Cowbee ,

Have you ever spoken to a Leftist? The Left hates Liberals, especially because historically Liberals have sided with fascists against Leftists.

bigfoot ,

I’ve never heard an actual human talk that way who wasn’t deeeep into MAGA.

Cowbee ,

So you have never spoken to a Leftist, got it.

bigfoot ,

I know many. We would never, ever, advocate for the sorts of things you are. Obvious Trump supporter is obvious.

Cowbee , (edited )

Never have I voted for Trump, nor have I considered it. You certainly aren't a leftist, lol. Hell, I voted for Biden last time, and probably will again, but I am not delusional and don't expect the DNC to ever move to the left via electoralism.

jayWL ,

Then please go out and talk to any ppl other than your WoW clan lmao

Zehzin ,
@Zehzin@lemmy.world avatar

WoW is the only 2-party system that rivals the US when it comes to which party did the most war crimes

jayWL ,

haha lmao

Pan_Ziemniak ,

Or the equivalent of voting for trump, anyway. And also note that they seem very angry over the notion that ppl will vote for biden while pursuing other forms of change or at the very least advocating for them.

CCPIsBased ,
@CCPIsBased@thelemmy.club avatar

Don't care, still not voting for either genocidal imperialist

InternetUser2012 ,

So you're voting for tRump, got it

CCPIsBased ,
@CCPIsBased@thelemmy.club avatar

implying that not voting for le chosen candidate means you're voting for orange man

bigfoot ,

It's not an implication that's literally how the American system is designed? I'm so confused as to how you think it works?

Cowbee ,

Does voting for Libertarians instead of Trump count as a vote for Biden?

bigfoot , (edited )

That doesn't answer the question.

Cowbee ,

I'm not the one you asked. You stated that not voting for Biden is a vote for Trump, but that's not accurate, just like voting Libertarian is not a vote for Biden instead of Trump.

I say this as someone currently planning on voting for Biden: try to work with Leftists, rather than trying to shame them, if you want their vote.

bigfoot ,

That's nice but still doesn't answer my question.

Cowbee ,

What question are you asking me to answer? A vote for a person is a vote for a person, a lack of vote for a person is a lack of vote for a person.

bigfoot ,

That’s nice but still doesn’t answer my question.

Cowbee ,

It does, playing dense doesn't make you right, nor does it avoid making you wrong.

Like I said: voting for a candidate is voting for a candidate, not voting for a candidate is not voting for a candidate.

I say this as someone likely voting for Biden: voting for third party isn't a vote for Biden or Trump. Biden should do his best to win over more voters.

bigfoot ,

That’s nice but still doesn’t answer my question.

Cowbee ,

Not too bright, are you?

Stormyfemme ,

If you were going to vote for Trump instead of the libertarian then kind of yes.

Cowbee ,

Why do you assume the DNC deserves the Leftist vote, then?

I ask this as a leftist planning on voting for Biden.

AVincentInSpace OP ,

Because I've looked at Trump's campaign promises

Cowbee ,

So then how do Leftists achieve leftist change? If the only obligation of the DNC is to be not quite as bad as the GOP, how do you expect there to be genuine, positive change, rather than the continued slow descent into fascism?

Again, I will probably be voting for Biden, but I'm not so clueless as to give that to Biden so far out from Election day. He needs to actually feel pressure. If the DNC just expects leftists to concede at every chance regardless of what the DNC does just because they aren't the GOP, why would any leftist expect positive change?

ArmokGoB ,

You achieve leftist change through starting a literal revolution. Nothing short of that will make a difference on the federal level in the US.

EndlessNightmare ,

If the only obligation of the DNC is to be not quite as bad as the GOP, how do you expect there to be genuine, positive change, rather than the continued slow descent into fascism?

That's the problem, I don't expect there to be genuine, positive change. Our system is such that I don't see a way to break the cycle.

Our shitty election system is such that if one side puts in a crazed lunatic, this gives the other side a license to be as shitty as they think they can get away with. And the people who have the ability to change it benefit from not doing so.

The best we can probably do is chip away at states 1 at a time to get ranked choice voting or some other system that addresses our duopoly. That's what we should be doing too, but it's a long road (if it will succeed at all) and won't help for 2024.

We are essentially painted into a corner.

spujb ,

kid named spoiler effect:

Grant_M ,
@Grant_M@lemmy.ca avatar

I like Biden and Harris and agree. They are the better choice by a wide margin. They've accomplished more in 3 years than decades worth of predecessors combined. Outstanding, really.

BlackRoseAmongThorns ,

Fucking hell, the liberals are using trans people as an excuse to throw the palestinians under the bus.

Look, if you're going to disregard the palestinians' human rights, then there will come a time when you'll do the same for trans people, and they are amart enough to know that.

The queer people's greatest strength is solidarity so spoiler alert, this won't really fly, how about you use your vote as a bargaining chip instead of sTrATegIcALly voting no questions asked?

AncientFutureNow ,

I'm trans. You're not helping anything.

Crikeste ,

Neither are you.

bigfoot ,

Great comeback, I'm sure Trans people are lining up to thank you for your internet comments.

Crikeste ,

Same to you from the comment I replied to. Really added a lot there. Surely I wasn’t lambasting your idiotic retort.

BlackRoseAmongThorns ,

Neither is voting blindly, which can be used as a justification for Biden doing nothing against the genocide.
Being passive is making things worse.

AVincentInSpace OP ,

Why do you think Trump will do anything other than make it worse?

https://www.politico.com/news/2024/03/25/trump-says-israel-should-finish-up-gaza-war-00148910

Holzkohlen ,

See what happens to the Palestinians when Trump gets elected you lazy piece of shit. I'm done with you self-serving assholes.

Kumikommunism ,

See what's happening to the Palestinians now under Biden.

AVincentInSpace OP ,

Tell me why you think it would be different under Trump.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/donald-trump-urges-israel-to-finish-it-up-and-end-war-against-hamas-in-gaza/ar-BB1kyZr4

Kumikommunism ,

Edit: Did you even read the article you linked? That is Trump telling Israel's leader that he needs to stop attacking Palestinians. Do you think that's bad?

I never said or implied that it would be. It won't be different under Biden either. Which is my point.

Although there is a case to be made about Biden's long history of gleefully jumping at every chance he gets to murder Arabs over his entire political career.

AVincentInSpace OP , (edited )

Edit: Did you even read the article you linked? That is Trump telling Israel’s leader that he needs to stop attacking Palestinians.

I simply do not think that is true. Here's an article from Politico in which he describes himself as "the most pro-Israel president ever" and implies he endorses the continued use of force.

I never said or implied that it would be. It won’t be different under Biden either. Which is my point.

And your proposed alternative is what? Voting third party? Even if you convinced two thirds of the people who would otherwise have voted for Biden to vote for the same third party candidate instead, Trump would still win because half the country voted for him and your guy only got a third. It's not viable. Never will be as long as we use first-past-the-post.

Although there is a case to be made about Biden’s long history of gleefully jumping at every chance he gets to murder Arabs over his entire political career.

Tell me more about that.

BlackRoseAmongThorns ,

Advocating people put political pressure on a candidate to change policy = lazy.

Getting off your ass once every few years to vote, and do it unconditionally = the embodiment of activism.

ps. Calling me lazy for not voting in the americans' elections is a very smart move.

mojo_raisin ,

Tankies and their ilk don't understand the concept of "worse". They are only intelligent enough to understand "Biden means genocide, can't vote for him", anything outside that thought is beyond their capacity.

I mean, what do you expect from people who think that strategies that failed 100 years ago are somehow going to work now in a totally different world?

AVincentInSpace OP ,

A bargaining chip backed by what? "Clean up your act or you'll lose one of your approximately 100 million votes?"

Oh, but no, we should get all our friends in on it too, so they'll lose maybe 10,000 of their 100 million votes if they don't clean up their act.

No one but you knows your favorite third-party candidate exists, and unless you want to become their campaign manager that will still be true in November. Even if you did, and even if you convinced two thirds of the people who would otherwise have voted for Biden to vote for your chosen candidate instead, Trump would still win because half the country voted for him and your guy only got a third. If you vote third party you might as well stay home.

Not voting isn’t going to stop the genocide in Gaza. The US will continue to funnel them arms no matter which candidate wins this November. Trump practically campaigns on how much he hates the Jews and he’s publicly told Israel to “finish up their war” so that life for Israelis can go back to normal. He’ll also make life a living hell for anyone who isn’t a straight cisgender male back here at home.

A vote for a candidate is not an endorsement of them or their policies, it’s a statement that you like their policies more than the other guy’s, and “sticking it to liberals” and “refusing to support genocide” (that’s not what voting for Biden is doing, by the way – a vote for either candidate is a vote for genocide and a vote for neither is an endorsement of both) is not more important than keeping the furthest right politician America has ever seen out of office.

bloodfart ,

No.

I will never vote for Joe Biden again.

If anyone reading wants some apolitical food for thought: your average “no-to-Joe” leftist has a straightforward “I won’t vote for genocidares” explanation. The liberals opposite them have a wall of text about game theory and harm reduction.

🤔

Vespair ,

Well I'm glad you live in a fantasy world where your abstinence doesn't have real world impact that is demonstrably worse, specifically in regards to the very genocide to which you refer, but unfortunately the rest of us live in the real world where sometimes we have to evaluate the weight of ideological purity vs real world harm impact.

Abucketofpuppies ,

Voting isn't a chess game. I just vote to my ideals. I hope more people do, because it's the only way things will ever change, sans revolution.

Vespair ,

Saying "if I don't get my way entirely I'm taking the ball and going home" is the opposite of how progress happens.

And as a follow-up, aside from voting, what other real on-the-grounds steps have you taken to progress or legitimize real leftism in America?

Abucketofpuppies ,

Who says I'm left?

Vespair ,

Sorry, I just assumed you were decent

Abucketofpuppies ,

I'm fairly moderate, and extremely moderate for a Lemmy user.

I'm sure you're decent, even though you try to make fun of me for having a distinct political ideology that doesn't conform to the leftist internet hivemind.

Most of my biggest priorities are left leaning, but outside the scope of common discourse. Such as independence from Chinese rare earth elements, prohibiting child marriage, and banning cigarettes and tobacco.

Vespair ,

I don't subscribe to any specific version of ideology, I merely think leftist mentality is the foregone conclusion of reasoned thinking amongst decent people.

If you think I'm using "leftist" in the tribalist way popular online and not as colloquial shorthand, you are mistaken.

the_third ,

Voting isn't a chess game.

It very much is. Especially if one of the options might result in never having to vote again.

Jentu ,

What, are liberals not willing to fight (physically) to get their democracy back from a dictatorship?

the_third ,

Eh, my country has its experience with the "dude is a little bit loony but we'll manage him" approach. Led to a bit of restructuring, first of the German government, then of the entire continent of Europe.

Seeing how you guys have nukes and all that, I'd prefer you wouldn't try to verify our results.

Jentu ,

Or maybe Americans would be more successful than the Hotel Kaiserhof in Berlin was.

bobburger ,

Lol, yeah I'm going to organize an armed rebellion against a country that can shoot me in the chest with a fucking rocket covered in swords from the other side of the world while I'm chilling on my deck with my family.

Jentu ,

Just put on a red hat and you'll be fine.

Jimmyeatsausage ,

Worked for the average German in the 1930s-40s

Jentu ,

I mean, obviously it didn't work for them since citizens weren't able to stop it before other parts of the world started intervening. The world can't feasibly intervene with the largest military on the world this time though. I mean, they could try, but it would be the end of all human life.

AVincentInSpace OP ,

Are you? If so, give me a place and date! I'll be right there!

If not, then shut the fuck up!

Jentu ,

You sound like a cop.

bloodfart ,

it's a little disingenuous to call not supporting a genocide ideological purity.

i mean, i guess it's a technically correct categorization, but the people who dont have that particular ideological purity are nazis, so...

i don't plan to abstain though. PSL is lookin good for president.

survivalmachine ,

Pumpkin Spice Latte ain't winning a thing. That's exactly as good as not voting, which benefits republicans every time.

bloodfart ,

how do you figure that?

i cast a vote for party for socialism and liberation and it gets counted for that party. thats not at all the same as not voting. that vote doesn't get counted for the republican party so it doesn't benefit them.

Grant_M ,
@Grant_M@lemmy.ca avatar

Trump is your man all the way!

bloodfart ,

nah, i'm not planning on voting for trump.

survivalmachine ,

Your vote or non-vote is just effectively counted for trump. Fly the Maga flag proudly!

CCPIsBased ,
@CCPIsBased@thelemmy.club avatar

Your vote or non-vote is just effectively counted for trump. Fly the Maga flag proudly!

https://thelemmy.club/pictrs/image/aee03f58-f8d3-4928-970b-00febf18fcd0.png

Cowbee ,

Are votes for Libertarians votes for Biden? Is that how it works?

survivalmachine ,

Yeah. Last election, I campaigned hard for Jo Jorgensen and Spike Cohen, then I voted for Biden. It was an effective strategy to siphon off the pedophile and racist-but-likes-weed votes away from Trump. A vote for a non-viable third party is just as effective as voting against the real candidate that most closely aligns with your views.

Cowbee ,

Why not try to actually educate others, rather than manipulate them?

survivalmachine ,

Why not both? That is not my only strategy in life. I educate those willing to learn and I manipulate those trying to intentionally harm humanity.

Cowbee ,

You openly admitted to spreading Libertarian bullshit, rather than trying to educate them and make them class-aware.

survivalmachine ,

Yes, that is one component of effective campaigning. Making the world a better place can involve both convincing others to join your cause and also convincing others to abandon the opposing cause, even if they don't join yours.

Cowbee ,

Or, you can act in everyone's interests, and get people voting for conservatives to move leftward. If your views are indeed correct, then you should have the advantage there.

Empowering the less likely opposition is what lost Hillary to Trump. The fact that Trump was ever on the ballot is because of the DNC, lmao.

survivalmachine ,

That's literally what I said I do. Good day.

Cowbee ,

No, you said you encouraged conservatives to vote Libertarian, and pushed them towards libertarianism, rather than leftward.

Vespair ,

You're right, if we talk to the wolves enough about the benefits of being a sheep, they'll start producing wool 🙄

Cowbee ,

You aren't talking to wolves, you're talking to sheep that are convinced you're a wolf. You, me, and they are all sheep, the wolves are the ones that are trying to pit the sheep against each other.

Holzkohlen ,

How childish. Get your head out of your own ass please.

bloodfart ,

excited to hear a feddit poster explain how refusing to endorse a genocide is childish 🍿

let me guess, good liberal democrat voters are just following orders, right?

Jimmyeatsausage ,

What's childish is not acknowledging the 2 facts that

  1. Trump will make the genocide worse. Abstaining from a UN security council vote is a pretty flaccid response, but it's the most any US President has done since since Israel's inception.

  2. The US President has responsibilities and influence beyond whatever Israel is doing. Biden losing increases the chance of a 2nd genocide in Ukraine and potentially an expanding war in Europe. That's not even mentioning how much worse things are gonna get here for anyone who isn't a cishet white man.

Your thinking is no different than all the women who kept voting on the single issue of overturning Roe and are now shocked they have to carry dead fetuses to term or be charged with a crime.

CCPIsBased ,
@CCPIsBased@thelemmy.club avatar

feddit.de

https://thelemmy.club/pictrs/image/4a0185f5-0959-4b18-a53a-7f76493fa921.webm

Zuberi ,

And they're bottling tf out of the votes too

The DNC has had more than 6 months to pivot off Biden, out deserve anything that's coming to you

bigfoot ,

You're just trying to get anti-Trump people to not vote so Trump can win. Anyone with half a brain knows that Joe Biden didn't do a genocide.

bloodfart ,

If I wanted trump to win I’d tell people to vote for trump.

Miphera ,

"Their answer is long and nuanced, while mine is short, simple, and makes me feel good about myself. Therefore I'm correct."

AVincentInSpace OP ,

"My argument is simpler than my opponent's, therefore it is correct"

bloodfart ,

The point of examining the straightforward morals of not supporting genocide in opposition to the convoluted justifications people put forward as reasons to vote blue no matter who was not to say that the simplest reasoning is correct, but to shine some light on the assumptions, misunderstandings and vast overvaluation of an individuals voting impact that underpin that argument.

You have to build a fucking mind palace to not just look at the two major parties, say “no thanks, I’m a human being with a soul and heart that feels” and walk away. That’s the point.

AVincentInSpace OP ,

I do not know how to tell you that not voting will not make neither candidate win.

bloodfart ,

At no point have I suggested that people abstain, although it’s better not to vote than to perpetuate either of the two major parties.

AVincentInSpace OP ,

And how do you propose doing that?

bloodfart ,

Idk what you mean or are asking…

AVincentInSpace OP ,

Not perpetuate either of the major parties. How do we do that, if not by abstaining?

bloodfart ,

Well, a person could very easily vote for a third party.

There are lots of ways to influence politics that are much more effective than voting, especially at the local level and I can’t recommend them highly enough.

Of course, if a person was in a situation where their election for a position was constrained to those two parties and there was no write in option than that person could leave that position blank or simply not vote at all.

It’s real easy to get stuck in that trolley problem mindset, but the two parties whom the tracks represent tied the people to their respective tracks and set the car on its runaway course. You’re being asked to pick between the two of em as if you’re responsible for the situation they engineered.

To borrow a phrase: just say no.

nxdefiant ,

The thing is, the game theorists aren't wrong. If you want to vote your feelings, that's your right. It's exactly what the ~1/3 of Trump supports are doing.

And much like them, you aren't even required to understand the consequences of your actions to do so! (Assuming you're privileged enough to never have to face them, of course)

bloodfart ,

For the game theorists to not be wrong, endorsing a genocide has to also not be wrong.

inclementimmigrant ,

Do I hate the two party system? Yes. Do I hate the fact that centrists like Joe Liberman who literally killed universal healthcare in the US are revered and embraced by Biden's party? Yes. Do I hate the fact that Democrats are always dismissive of liberal ideas and often act like complete jackasses and can't admit that when Obama was running there were a ton of Clinton supporters that didn't vote for Obama in a blatant act of pure hypocrisy? Yes.

Do I fucking hate Nazis and Fascist? Fuck yes.

Hence why even if I don't like the Democrat running, I'll vote for them and honestly, Biden isn't too sucktastic. Except for kyrsten sinema, she can fuck right the hell off forever.

Eatspancakes84 ,

I hate how so many critics talk about they when criticising a political party. Get involved. Run for local office, become a part of the inside of the party. How can Democrats ever represent younger leftists, when so few of the younger leftists let their voice be heard outside of anonymous forums?

abracaDavid ,

Yeah lemme get like $2,000,000 so I can go run for office.

go_go_gadget ,

All so a bunch of white Boomers can show up and vote against you for being "too radical".

zeppo ,
@zeppo@lemmy.world avatar

Campaigns don’t tend to be self-funded.

Krauerking ,

Hey are you involved in your political party? Have you run for local office?

You aren't also being a hypocrite by telling other people to get involved while not doing it yourself right?

Kumikommunism ,

Do I hate the fact that centrists like Joe Liberman who literally killed universal healthcare in the US are revered and embraced by Biden's party?

Joe Biden explicitly said he would veto any legislation involving universal healthcare. You oppose universal healthcare, but you're hiding behind the spectre of "centrists".

inclementimmigrant ,

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/mar/10/facebook-posts/when-biden-was-asked-if-he-would-veto-medicare-all/

And again, as a minority in America, I would take Biden over a Nazi any day. Doesn't mean I love him to death and would take him into my arms and give him a reach around but fuck anyone who would vote for a Nazi.

abracaDavid ,

Do I hate everything going on in this country? Yes.
Do I still keep voting to have the same shit happen over and over? Yes.

inclementimmigrant ,

I mean if you want to vote in a bunch of fucking Nazis and fascists just for some change , well feel fucking free to do so, I'm just going to consider you stupid and a Nazi.

bigMouthCommie ,
@bigMouthCommie@kolektiva.social avatar

democrats are fascist.

inclementimmigrant ,

Okay they Billy Madison.

bigMouthCommie ,
@bigMouthCommie@kolektiva.social avatar

this doesnt change the truth of what i said

inclementimmigrant ,

Sure. Very nice truthiness there Billy.

bigMouthCommie ,
@bigMouthCommie@kolektiva.social avatar

this is an appeal to ridicule. it is not a rebuttal

halva ,
@halva@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

https://discuss.tchncs.de/pictrs/image/9b5b3a06-ac66-4c54-8fa6-09bfec023bf0.jpeg

not literally everything that's bad is fascist

megopie ,

The party needs to start trying to win apathetic voters over if they’re as terrified as they claim to be of trump, not just spout vague platitudes, push out the most bare bones minimum viable policy possible and then shrug when it gets dismembered in committee.

zarkanian ,
@zarkanian@sh.itjust.works avatar

Yes, vote! The Green Party needs to get at least 5% to qualify for funding.

joenforcer ,

The Green Party and the Libertarian Party are how we got Trump the first time around. The stakes are too high.

Cowbee ,

That's a bit disingenuous, don't you think? Hillary won the popular vote, but herself was completely unwilling to concede to leftists, and as such she lost some of that vote.

Toeing the establishment line isn't a good thing, nor is blaming dissafected voters the right place to blame. Blame Hillary and the DNC for fighting against progressives instead of working with them.

OsrsNeedsF2P ,

Why blame the Green Party and the Libertarian Party for the DNC's failure? The DNC always says we have to vote for the lesser of two evils. The DNC always says next time we can get a better candidate.

The parties are the same. The Dems just pretend to be better. When real issues come around, they have the same policies.

Third party or bust.

bigfoot ,

Anyone who says "bust" is a viable option is showing their extreme privilege, imo.

AFC1886VCC ,

It's a good time to not be American and not having voting for one of those pricks on your conscience

zarkanian ,
@zarkanian@sh.itjust.works avatar

Jill Stein and Cornel fucking West are also on the ballot.

nomous ,

I've had "leftists" here on lemmy act like Stein and West are legitimate candidates. She hasn't gotten any traction any other time she's run and I'm not sure why this time would be any different.

joenforcer ,

The traction she got in 2016 is the reason we're having this conversation.

nomous ,

Oh, I was having the conversation because of her failed run in 2012.

zarkanian ,
@zarkanian@sh.itjust.works avatar

If you can get on enough ballots to win, you're a legitimate candidate.

nomous ,

I agree, unfortunately .036% isn't a winning percentage.

tb_ ,
@tb_@lemmy.world avatar

It's a bad time to not be an American because that country holds far too much sway over the rest of the world and you can't even help picking the lesser poison.

index ,

but anyone with half a brain knows there are two choices in the 2020 election.

Anyone who isn't brainwashed by government propaganda and who is in good faith knows that supporting corrupted criminals is never the smart thing to do and that keeping voting for the "lesser evil" is exactly how sooner or later you end up with a dictator in power.

Not voting isn’t going to stop the genocide in Gaza.

Not supporting these fueling the genocide is indeed a way to stop the genocide. The US will continue to do as it please them and aid israel government because they are confident that neither red or blue will lose the elections and they will not lose any power. Unsupporting these parties will force them to change their policies not to lose any votes and lose their monopoly on power.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Israel_in_the_2023_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war

There's a genocide happening right now where thousand of kids already were murdered and keep getting murderer as we speak. For these innocent people and not for the love of any god people should overthrow and fight the corrupted criminals that are making it possible, not supporting scum is already the smallest thing you should do.

zea_64 ,

I think these parties would sooner abandon no-voters who want change rather than actually change.

bigfoot ,

keeping voting for the “lesser evil” is exactly how sooner or later you end up with a dictator in power.

Do you have a source for this claim? The US has been voting this way for 250 years, and it's citizens have more rights than ever so forgive me for being a little bit skeptical.

Olgratin_Magmatoe ,

it’s citizens have more rights than ever so forgive me for being a little bit skeptical.

How's those rights to bodily autonomy going?

bigfoot ,

That's not a source for your claim.

Olgratin_Magmatoe ,

I'm a different user. I'm talking about your claim about the U.S. having more rights than ever, not the other claim.

Krauerking ,

And no response from them but it's people complaining who are wrong cause it makes them feel bad and it can be waived away with "but I'm sure it's better now, it's good for me"

Same argument every time. Sure harm reduction isn't working but maybe you haven't tried being up against a bad enough harm and also we need to not make a sound or else Mommy might come in and beat us for being upset.

Complaints about the system and setup we are in are more upsetting to those that can ignore it than the issues themselves.

bigfoot ,

Cool story new person, you still didn't provide a source.

Olgratin_Magmatoe , (edited )

Because I'm talking about a different thing, and I was asking a question.

KingThrillgore ,
@KingThrillgore@lemmy.ml avatar

I understand their frustrations given how Biden was brazenly treating Israel until lately (almost like he realized there was an election going on).

KeenFlame ,

Not voting is not a statement that either or is okay. Not voting sends a clear signal that you don't want voting rights, you don't believe in people having voices in how they are ruled.

Ultragigagigantic ,
@Ultragigagigantic@lemmy.world avatar

Switching away from first past the post voting allows people to vote for who represents them best while still counting their vote against those they dont want to win. Just search for videos on FPTP voting if you want an explanation on how and why the spoilereffect exists that makes third parties not viable.

Electoral reform is possible in each individual state (for now), we dont need federal reform! Maine and Alaska have already passed electoral reform.

So what’s the hold up with the rest of the states? Consider starring a campaign to change how we vote in your own state! Force our representatives to compete with fresh outside ideas. We deserve the best representation, not excuses.

Jentu ,

The whigs (conservative but more left relatively) and the democrats (conservative but more right relatively) back in the day were facing a similar moral issue. The whigs refused to answer the question of "what do we do about slavery" and a ton of whig and anti-slavery voters formed their own party (Lincoln's republicans) because they didn't want slavery anymore. This is how 3rd parties win- by another party dying. As far as I'm concerned, both republicans and democrats need to be replaced with something more representative, but if I were to make a guess, the Democratic Party will be the first to die.

Cowbee , (edited )

Now is the time to pressure Biden. This is the tender time where leftists can actually force consessions, and those won't happen if you "Vote Blue no matter who" the situation as Biden is actively facilitating a genocide. Even if you ultimately plan on voting for him, you must pressure him now as though you may not, or you will be spinelessly contributing to even more genocide.

Biden supports genocide because Israel is a valuable ally to the US empire as a foothold in the Middle East, and will only go against that if it looks like it may cost him the election. Do not assume Biden is a good person that just needs to "see reason," that's utter Utopianism. Biden has his interests, and we have ours, so to steer him we need to fight hard, now.

Please save this sentiment for after Leftists have successfully pressured Biden into ending the genocide, not while he is actively arming Israel.

Syrc ,

But how do you actually press someone in that position? If Trump didn’t support genocide you could at least try and leverage on that, but he knows we have no alternative.

We’re in a situation where he knows every person with a brain that doesn’t want fascism will vote for him. He can only realistically be pressed to make changes that could appeal to Rightwing voters, and being pro-genocide might actually be a positive for those.

Cowbee ,

The "uncommited" movement is forcing concessions. It's a game of chicken, but it's our most valuable influence on elections.

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