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Nacktmull ,
@Nacktmull@lemmy.world avatar

This is playing down the actual behavior of fascists in a very careless way.

  • They do not just kick out minorities, once in power they systematically hunt down and murder them!

  • They do not just jail dissenters, once in power they systematically hunt down and murder them!

  • They do not just "say no" to Jews, once in power they systematically hunt down and murder them!

Annoyed_Crabby ,

I think "at the bare minimum" did a lot of heavy lifting.

yetAnotherUser ,

Not quite.

Some fascsist do this, absolutely. Others, to appear moderate, kick out minorities and "just" jail dissenters. Will they eventually start murdering people? Absolutely.

But nearly no fascist nowadays advocates for murder. They must first radicalize the people once in control via salami slicing tactics. If you look for fascists, do not look for people advocating for murder - they will be noticeable enough anyways. Look for those who can be described with the picture in this post.

Aceticon , (edited )

Not to be defending Fascists, but those you describe are the Nazi style ones.

Portugal, Italy, Spain and Greece too had Fascist dictatorships and those pretty much did not care about Jews or minorities and whilst they were all autoritarian and happy to use state violence for oppression and suppression of dissidents, the only ones who did anything close to systematical murder were the ones in Spain in their early days and their targets were mainly those they deemed "Communists".

By comparison Zionists are more murderous than all of those 4, though not as much as the Nazis, and consider and treat a whole different ethnic group as "human animals" than the Nazis did.

In fact the use of specific ethnicities for Fascism in that table is a pretty good indication that the author(s) are deeply racist with a very specific slant on who their "good" ethnicities and "bad" ethnicities are: even without going into the whole Israel thing, just look at Modi in India to see Fascism in action whithout the perpetrators being White or the victims Jews.

hikaru755 ,

is a pretty good indication that the author(s) are deeply racist

Or, maybe, they're just using the most well-known instance of fascism in history as a concrete example, in order to not overcomplicate the message. Jumping to accusations of racism at the slightest suspicion is not gonna help anyone.

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

They're doing the standard reverse racism charge, because you see, noticing racism is actually the real racism.

In the English speaking world, anti-white racism isn't really a thing.

Some people will swear up and down that it is, but those people think racism is just a set of attitudes towards a race of people, and not a deeply entrenched system of oppression against entire swathes of society.

Aceticon ,

Racism is seeing race as what makes people "goodies" or "badies". The "good" races and "bad" races in your thinking being different from those of mid and early XXth century racism in Western nations is wholly irrelevant for asserting that thinking like that is being a Racist.

The opposite of Racist is not a Racist with an opposite list of "good" and bad "races", it's somebody who thinks it's not race that makes people be "good" or "bad".

It's pretty telling that your entire defense of somebody else assigning race as cause of certain behaviours is to say that indeed for certain races, race is the cause of that behaviour and presume that the denial of that by others is due to the specific race which was said to be "badies".

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

Please show me where I said white people were the bad people.

It's not a long comment I made so it shouldn't be hard to find it, unless I said no such thing.

Aceticon ,

Yeah, you're right on that point: you're dividing people into behavioural groups using "English speaking world" as identity tag rather than a race.

So the prejudice you voiced was using "geographical area of birth defined by language spoken" to presume unrelated characteristics of people, rather race.

It was indeed incorrect and unfair of my part to accuse you of voicing prejudice by race when the prejudice you voiced was by "geographical area of birth".

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

Please tell me where in my comment I said anyone were bad people because of their "geographical area of birth".

It wasn't a very long comment I made so it shouldn't be hard to find it, unless I said no such thing.

Aceticon ,

Please tell me where in my comment I said that you said "anyone were bad people because of their 'geographical area of birth'”.

It wasn’t a very long comment I made so it shouldn’t be hard to find it, unless I said no such thing.

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

The opposite of Racist is not a Racist with an opposite list of “good” and bad “races”, it’s somebody who thinks it’s not race that makes people be “good” or “bad”.

It was indeed incorrect and unfair of my part to accuse you of voicing prejudice by race when the prejudice you voiced was by “geographical area of birth”.

Put those two together, in context, like you might do if you could read things, understand them and infer basic meaning, and that's actually very clearly what you were saying.

In case you can't follow it because for example you are trying to avoid taking responsibility for what you said: you said I divided people into good and bad by race, then you corrected yourself and said my prejudice was based on geography. That prejudice was clearly established as believing in good and bad people.

You're right, that really wasn't hard, because you absolutely did say that.

You clearly don't have anything honest to say or you'd have said it. You're 0 for 3 on actually saying something that makes sense yet. I don't hold out hope for future comments.

Aceticon ,

The opposite of Racist is not a Racist with an opposite list of “good” and bad “races”, it’s somebody who thinks it’s not race that makes people be “good” or “bad”.

You're pressuming that was about you rather than me making the counter-point to the posture you were supporting.

It's funny that you repeatedly demanded me to point an exact statement and yet when faced with an equal demand, it was fine for you to "infer" meaning, though that was previously not fine for me to do.

It's called a double standard.

Curiously and having in good faith taken that original riposte of yours (before you repeated it again, in slogan-like fashion) about me having unfairly infered something about your statement, I actually apologized for that since I had indeed presumed too much.

Well, at least it's well beyond doubt (certainly you exhausted the original benefit of the doubt) to me that you are not making points in good faith and what drives you in this exchange is something else than a desire for an open and fair discussion, so you do you an I'll do me.

Excrubulent , (edited )
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

Motherfucker you came at me with a challenge to a position that I clearly didn't have, and your "apology" was obviously a snide attempt to make a second equally ridiculous accusation.

You also said I "voiced prejudice". (EDIT: In fact, you called it an "accusation", your words, so it wasn't some academic detached notion that you were attacking, it was my conduct directly) Now, if that's meant to mean something other than you accusing me of racism or whatever "geographical" prejudice is, go for it. Explain yourself.

I never said anything prejudicial towards any group. Once again, if I did, fucking show it. Explain your working.

So far I am working off of vague insinuations and technical "well ackshually"s from you. If you have something to say, fucking say it.

Aceticon , (edited )

If you're obcessed with the race of the people involved, you're probably a racist.

Describing Fascism as something that only victimizes a specific ethnicity - Jews, curiously forgetting other Nazi-victimized ethnicities like Roma, not to mention non-ethnic groups such as those with disabilities - is also a long running hasbara strategy of Zionists to portray themselves as impossible to be Fascists, all the while behaving as such to quite an extreme level, something extra poignant right now when they're in the middle of committing Genocide.

Even if all that was just the product of naivety of the author rather than something else, to limit one's description of Fascism to only Nazis is an insult to people who lived under other Fascist dictatorships, something which just so happens to include me - just because the dictator in my homeland "only" had censorship, a secret police, political prisioners, forced labour of the natives in the "colonies" in Africa and kept the country incredibly poor except for the 9 families of the Regime, doesn't mean that shit wasn't Fascism because he was "equal opportunity" when it came to the ethnicity of the people he oppressed and exploited.

(PS: Also, thinking that it's the race of a person that makes them behave one way or another is the very dictionary definition of racism. It's quite irrelevant which race you think are "goodies" and which are "badies" - it's the thinking that it's the race that makes people "goodies" or "badies" that's racism)

The simplest explanation for somebody only seing the race angle of Fascism, only the Nazis and only a specific ethnicity they victimized when there is at least one other that they equally victimized (the Roma) is racism.

go_go_gadget ,

Didn't Trump say he would nuke Palestinians?

MystikIncarnate ,

I just want to point out that not all fascists are Nazis. Can I point that out without getting crucified?

I will clarify that if you're any kind of fascist, you're a trash person, doubly so for Nazis specifically... But not all fascists are Nazis. Which the OP chart seems to imply.

To drive my point home, I'll quote Wikipedia: fascism is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy.

Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

Nowhere in there does it say that fascists are anti-Semites, nor white supremacist. Those ideologies are generally attributed to specific fascist ideologies... Eg. Nazis.

Let's not sugar coat what people are. If they're Nazi fucks, let's call them Nazi fucks.

pumpkinseedoil ,

And if they aren't, don't call them Nazis. For example I strongly disagree with the term "grammar nazi" that English speaking people sometimes use for people who point out grammatical flaws in comments or articles - that may sensitise people to view the term lightly, not taking it seriously when someone seriously is a nazi. Apart from that it's a cruel joke towards the people who suffered under the nazi regime or died fighting it.

MystikIncarnate ,

I agree with this. We need better terms.

Nazis were such a heinous and specific evil that we probably shouldn't do anything that could lighten that term. At all.

The part that makes me sad is that they appropriated the symbol of the swastika, and made it into a visage of hate and oppression. It's a religious symbol for luck.

I don't think that reputation is changing anytime soon.

The Nazis destroyed a lot, and corrupted so many things by association.

ALoafOfBread , (edited )

Horseshoe theory is dumb, but it's really just an observation of the loudest ideologies on the far left and far right, which both happen to be authoritarian. Authoritarianism becomes necessary as you move toward the extremes because you have to coerce some people/classes to accept the system. And it's true that real-world instances of both Fascism and Communism have been authoritarian, and so they share some things in common. It isn't a particularly nuanced or deep understanding, but it is true that authoritarian forms of gov't are authoritarian. The difference lies in the details. Communists used authoritarianism against capitalists and the nobility, and fascists used it against minorities. Horseshoe theory conflates "authoritarianism" with extreme Left and Right-wing ideologies. This contrasts against anarchism (and by extension the broad anti fascist movement), of course, which is extremely anti-authoritarian (hence why horseshoe theory completely falls apart here).

explodicle ,

Authoritarianism becomes necessary as you move toward the extremes because you have to coerce some people/classes to accept the system.

Do you consider anarchists and anarchocommunists to be extremists? Or authoritarian?

ALoafOfBread , (edited )

Extremists? Sure - they are, by definition, as they are outside of normal, status quo political ideologies. Authoritarian? No of course not. Anarchists are anti-authoritarian. I'm only saying that past communist states (namely PRC and USSR) have been authoritarian and fascist states have also been authoritarian.

Obviously modern neoliberal states are also authoritarian, but the classic horseshoe is almost exclusively applied to fascism and communism. Since it is incoherent as a political theory, I'm sure you could apply it similarly to any polar opposite ideologies and come up with something they share in common.

Excrubulent , (edited )
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

You might want to consider that those who call themselves leftist may not actually be leftist.

For instance, "Nazi" is short for "national socialist". They are clearly right wing, however, if you pay attention to their actions.

So-called socialist states are generally deeply repressive and that is not left wing. They were better at branding than the Nazis, but for instance the USSR neutered the soviets - the workers' councils after which the state was named - very soon after taking power. The state owned rhe means of production, not the workers. It was state capitalist. After that workers had to strike just like under any other capitalist regime, and they were brutally repressed by the state.

Under no honest description of socialist does that qualify. So they failed on both the "Soviet" and "Socialist" parts of their name.

Horseshoe theory is just capitalists happily buying into the USSR and other state capitalists' self mythology about being socialist because it's good propaganda to scare the workers they rule over into believing that there is no alternative to neoliberalism's stochastic brutality.

ALoafOfBread ,

If we understand "Leftism" to be about a relationship to the means of production - namely one in which the workers/plroletarian class owns the means of production - then the USSR certainly was socialist/leftist to a significant degree.

Since leftism is about that relationship to the means of production, that also means that a government can be both Leftist and Authoritarian. We can discuss to what degree an ideal leftist government should be "authoritarian", but that is less a conversation about the economic aspects of leftist political ideology and more about the political philosophy around personal freedoms, freedom of speech, etc. - none of which are completely cut & dry.

One could easily argue that some degree of "authoritarianism" is necessary to protect greater freedoms at the expense of lesser ones - that could be a coherent pro personal freedom and pro authoritarian argument. One could also argue that the anarchist conception of personal freedom is doomed to fail without an "authoritarian" power hierarchy to protect those freedoms. All I'm saying is the question of to what degree the power of the state should be limited is by no means answered.

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

Ownership means having power, having control, over the thing you own.

An authoritarian government that maintains control over the means of production, no matter how much they nominally "belong" to the workers, inherently alienates the workers from having power and therefore from ownership. In that sense it is state capitalist.

You cannot have it both ways unless you change the meaning of words like "own", or "authority". Your own description of leftism precludes authoritarian methods.

Objection ,
@Objection@lemmy.ml avatar

Authoritarianism becomes necessary as you move toward the extremes because you have to coerce some people/classes to accept the system.

Why is this only necessary at the extremes? I don't want to accept the current system I live under, but I'm coerced into complying with it through force (police).

ALoafOfBread , (edited )

I'd argue that: 1) what is extreme changes over time, 2) a system of government being extreme de facto means it will have less support; the more support it has, the less extreme it is by definition, 3) the less support a system of government hass, the more force will be required to maintain it.

I am also under a system of government that is oppressive and monopolizes violence, but if the government had less popular support, I fully believe it would proportionally ramp up the oppression and violence. In fact, I'd argue that it's currently happening in the US.

Objection ,
@Objection@lemmy.ml avatar

I don't know that I agree with your definition of extreme. On the one hand, there's popularity of various ideas, and on the other, there's how much the idea differs from the way things are currently done. It's possible for an idea drastically different from the status quo to be popular, but it would still be considered extreme because of how big of a change it would be.

CarbonatedPastaSauce ,

Remember kids, it’s not hypocrisy to be intolerant of the intolerant. They have broken the social compact and are therefore no longer protected by it.

SpikesOtherDog ,

I was going to joke about some kind of social powder case, but it turns out that compact and contact are synonymous here.

CarbonatedPastaSauce ,

I was going to joke about some kind of social vision correction device that goes on your eyeball, but then I realized you meant contract. ;)

ThunderclapSasquatch ,

Instructions unclear, stabbed myself in the eye with the things from Prey

John_McMurray ,

Someone hasn't listened to anti fa and modern communists talk about jews

DaBabyAteMaDingo ,

I think this anti fascist stuff is retarded but I don't think that's true. Care to explain?

John_McMurray ,

Lived on the coast a long time, listened to people talk.

CileTheSane ,
@CileTheSane@lemmy.ca avatar

"I heard a racist guy once, pretty sure he was antifa!"

John_McMurray ,

Just cause you've never left your fucking basement, doesn't mean others haven't hung out with the hippies, burners and crazies in Portland, Vancouver, Seattle and LA for years

ameancow ,

You know what's worse than being a basement dweller? It's being unaware that you're vulnerable to propaganda, being unaware that you're an emotional creature and your brain doesn't try to make sense, it tries to connect stories and ideas to explain why you're feeling what you feel.

In other words, you can be a smart person and easily influenced into positions that either are not your own, or not even connected to reality just because you had a feeling once validated by someone saying the right thing at the right time and you don't question the story that you start piecing together in your head.

So the question you would need to always ask yourself, is what is it that you feel that you need to cling to such cynical and hateful stereotypes to the extent of even invalidating or denying the testimony of others who are directly contradicting your obviously exaggerated tales of "listening to hippies talk about jews."

You are describing a personal experience and because it validates some feeling you already had, it feels like a real evaluation of the broader world. Other people who do this include: scientologists, flat-earthers, modern nazis, cult members and generally people who just go through life angry and miserable and blaming that misery on others. Don't be a pawn to others or your own brain, have some control over your narratives.

John_McMurray ,

Stfu moron.

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

Wow, what a rational, level-headed response. You sure showed them.

Everyone here thinks you're the reasonable one. We all take you more seriously now.

John_McMurray ,

you've severely confused "well-spoken" with "anything worthwhile to say".

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

Something worthwhile like "stfu moron"?

You can't be this un-self-aware.

Actually no, I've seen how you talk. Obviously you are.

John_McMurray ,

Nah, that was the appropriate response to that moronic horseshit. It's not so much how you say it, it's what you say that matters.

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

You actually think this is convincing literally anyone? Be honest now, I really want to know, do you think you look reasonable to anyone at all here?

Like you can claim that you're the only sane person here all you want, but do you really think this performance is doing anything good?

For what it's worth, I really do think it's good that you're saying this, because it shows anyone who's watching just how vapid, toxic and hateful you are as a representative of the "antifa are the real fascists" crowd.

John_McMurray ,

I'm not trying to convince any you all of anything, that's clearly impossible. I'm trying to tell you you're fucking stupid and hoping it'll sink in over time.

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

I think that's projection, and I think anyone reading can see it too.

John_McMurray ,

That;s kinda funny, cause i didn't say anything about "antifa being the real fascists", I said left coast progressives have a habit of talking shit about the jews (communists tend to spout the Rothschild rhetoric as hard as Alex Jones fans)

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

Really, what did they say?

John_McMurray ,

literally just said what. fuck me. do you want direct and indivual quotes? No.

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

No no, keep bitching out and showing what a fool you are. It's great.

You said you're not my servant but you really do seem to be obligated to reply, like you apparently can't stop.

CileTheSane ,
@CileTheSane@lemmy.ca avatar

Just cause you've never left your fucking basement,

So you freely and openly make up assumptions and lies about people based on whether or not they agree with you, and you expect me to believe you totally met a bunch of hippies at Portland, Vancouver, Seattle and LA. For years. You hang out with hippies all the time. Can't leave your house without bumping into a hippie that introduces themselves to you with "I'm Antifa and I hate Jews!"

John_McMurray ,

Well, it's pretty plain you've never been to Portland.

CileTheSane ,
@CileTheSane@lemmy.ca avatar

Never claimed I had. Good thing all the racist Antifa love in Portland. Keeps them all contained.

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

Just take a moment to bask in the notion that "it’s pretty plain you’ve never been to Portland" without any clarification implies that actually they do constantly bump into hippies that say, "I’m Antifa and I hate Jews!” or at least something along those lines.

This is so unbelievably unhinged. I honestly think it's bad to remove comments like theirs, because they show so clearly how wrong that person is.

Even claiming they live on the coast as if that explains anything is just playing right into the Fox News canard about "coastal elites" which itself carries antisemitic undertones.

They're being so vague about it, I assume because they live on "THE COAST" and it's all just so intense and self-evidently evil that they are completely incapable of giving any specific details whatsoever.

John_McMurray ,

Jesus. Do you want my name and address? I don;t need to say which coast, it's fucking obvious between hippies and the named cities. You people think youre being clever, but are really just showing you've not been there.

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

Ah yes, name and address, clearly what I meant by specifics. I certainly didn't think it would be reasonable to specify the specific behaviours you've seen and in which contexts.

No no, a city and the notion of racist antifa, that's all anyone needs to take your word for it. I trust you.

John_McMurray ,

I already had, so that would imply you wanted otherwise. Fuck me, you actually think this is clever?

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

That's it? Just "anti fa and communists talk about jews"? You think that's anything?

What could I possibly want to know beyond that?

Oh gee, I dont know, maybe literally a single thing that they said? Maybe what was happening at the time?

No no, too much, I could dox you with that, obviously.

John_McMurray ,

Wouldn't be hard, I already know you live on the east side of the continent.

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

Tell me what they said. Give me just one single quote.

John_McMurray ,

No. I'm not your servant.

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

You came in so strong and now you're just bitching out.

PastryPaul ,

LOL

PastryPaul ,

I live in Portland, you're full of shit.

ameancow ,

Well SHIT son, you lived on the COAST??

Well that shit changes everything, I had no idea you overheard things out on the coast, I mean I was here ready to talk about crime stats and systemic inequality and the USA's history with civil rights, but here is a person who heard some stuff out on the coast! I guess I should reconsider everything and stop supporting efforts to squash nazis in an industrial nazi-squashing machine.

John_McMurray ,

Yeah, so all you have is shit you read. Brilliant.

StupidBrotherInLaw ,

You've got to be trolling. No one, I mean NO ONE is this stupid.

John_McMurray ,

i guess you don;t own a mirror

StupidBrotherInLaw ,

I did, but your mom stole it after I fucked her.

Don’t be bitter. Be better!

tocopherol ,
@tocopherol@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Could YOU care to explain? Do you have some issue with antifascism?

DaBabyAteMaDingo ,

The concept is cool but the youth of America is just doing it as a fad. Obviously I don't like fascism but I dislike so called anti fascists way more lol

tocopherol ,
@tocopherol@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

People against Nazis are worse than Nazis, is literally what you are saying.

DaBabyAteMaDingo ,

Not what I said but thanks for making my point. You and anyone else anti fascist adjacent are so whack 🤣

tocopherol ,
@tocopherol@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Okay let me be more accurate, sorry. You said you dislike people that call themselves antifascist more than people who murder Jewish people and queers.

DaBabyAteMaDingo ,

Sure bud 🤣🤣🤣

tocopherol ,
@tocopherol@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

You know you can go reread your comment if you are confused.

tocopherol ,
@tocopherol@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

What do they say? Because I am a lifelong antifascist and communist and we love Jewish people but shun Zionism, maybe you have conflated the two.

John_McMurray ,

You deaf? Or just in denial.

SoleInvictus ,

So what you're saying is you can't answer their question.

Edit: check their post history, they're obviously a troll

John_McMurray ,

No. You all just have what brains you have, so far in fantasy land, common sense sounds like trolling. Like it's 2024 and yall think communism is an option. FFS, you huys talk about pattern recogntion and trustin the sciencem, try readin a fucking book and not dieregarding the repeated results.

SoleInvictus , (edited )

Yeah, so all you have is shit you read. Brilliant.

-John McMurray, "Totally not a Troll Guys"

I can't tell - do I need to read a book or live on the coast? Message unclear.

John_McMurray ,

Try both, it'll definitely expand your horizons

kittenzrulz123 ,

As a Antifascist and AnSynd I am Jewish :3

Cethin ,

I mostly only hear good things about Jews from the left. I hear a lot of negative thoughts on Israel (which does not represent jews, and are just a state) and zionism. Most jews are no Israeli and/or Zionist. Many Israeli jews aren't in favor of the current government, their actions, or zionism either. There is a clear distinction between the three, and only being against one is anti-semetic.

John_McMurray ,

Yeah....heard this one before. Anyone says anything unpleasant is suddenly right wing.

Cethin ,

No. Just when someone says something against Israel, Zionism, or in favor of Palestine it isn't anti-semetic.

John_McMurray ,

stay on topic

Cethin ,

The topic of your strawman? Yeah, sure... that seems reasonable.

ProgrammingSocks ,

Jews or Israel? They aren't the same and saying they are is unironically antisemitic.

John_McMurray ,

Did I stutter? If I meant Israel, I would have said so. Why do people have this much trouble with direct statements? I generaly suspect they want multiple paragraphs to dissect because they can't find what they need in concise statements.

Blackmist ,

Thing is left right isn't much of a line, no matter what shape it is.

The right is a point, they'll get behind a populist and go to jail for them.

The left is a scattered mess of disagreeing elements who hate each other almost as much as they hate the far right.

And of course they both hate the dreaded "liberals".

John_McMurray ,

Everybody hates gormless morons that don't believe in nothing at all.

StaySquared , (edited )

It's amazing that the whole of humanity, or at the very least the United States citizens haven't realized that we're being played. We're being told we need to fit into this specific group or that specific group causing division. When citizens aren't able to unite, they are more easily controllable. Identity politics is chit and so are the fans who perpetuate division.

The only time, two opposing sides agreed... FJB

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/BjgS_QMThRs

angrystego ,

Is antifa extreme left?

shneancy ,

according to some yes, but according to normal people though, antifa is just people who don't want nazis around them, which should be everyone?

Iceblade02 ,

The fact that there is a "Yes" in the violence box (regardless of target) makes them violent extremists. Besides, from what I've seen, plenty of antifa folk will use violence and vandalism against people unrelated to the supposed target group.

frazorth ,

Makes them violent extremists

Only if you believe that any violence is extreme. I would disagree, punching fascists is fairly centrist and enjoys broad support.

what I've seen, plenty of antifa folk will use violence and vandalism against people unrelated to the supposed target group.

That is besides the point. You can be against facists and also against Nestle at the same time.

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

"Centrist" only if you use the sense of a median popular political position, which isn't really what it means. Self-described centrists are actually conservative and tend to be weirdly* okay with Nazis.

*weird if you don't understand the link between capital, the state, conservatism and fascism

Iceblade02 ,

I do, and where I live being the first to throw a punch towards anyone for almost any reason is generally frowned upon.

The reason that violence is dangerous in this context is that it can allow a violent minority to oppress and subjugate a majority. By removing it from society in general and de-legitimizing its use the influence of these sorts of people can be effectively minimized.

shneancy ,

do you think WWII was won without violence mate? If nazis could be reasoned with there wouldn't be a war in the first place. You can't turn the other cheek to nazis, it's just not an option, you either fight back or you die.

Iceblade02 ,

That's a terrible comparison. The same can be applied to any state with an aggressive foreign policy - or violent group intent on assailing a legitimate, elected government.

Political violence instead tends to fuel and enlarge these sorts of radical, violent movements, ultimately worsening the situation even further. The antidote is de-legitimizing their entire strategy by enforcing non-violence on an institutional level, a peaceful transfer of power. This shows the general populace that the most dangerous thing in the room is in fact the violent extremist, who needs to be locked up the moment they break the social contract of non-violence.

shneancy ,

"enforcing non-violance" and how do you propose we do that?

Diva ,
@Diva@lemmy.ml avatar

Centrists are currently overseeing a genocide right before our eyes and telling us that the fascists would be worse so we just have to suck it up and vote for them.

Centrists are violent extremists

NekoKamiGuru ,
@NekoKamiGuru@ttrpg.network avatar

Since it is leaderless some factions of Antifa are extreme left, some are what they say on the tin and are are anti fascist, and some are crypto-fascists who have appropriated the language of antifa as a smoke screen , this last group has most of the ones who go on social media and stir up ship , and bait people, and try to turn peaceful protests into riots to discredit the protestors...

MehBlah ,

Left and right is just another meaningless tag to attach to people. Its really jerks vs everyone else. You can't tell a leftist jerk from their right leaning clone. You can take the garbage they spew and substitute a few words depending on the what flavor they call themselves and hear nearly the exact same thing. Then you have the joiners. Who have to belong. Who will pick one side to belong. They by far are the worst of the group since they lack any spine to keep them honest.

TheOriginalGregToo ,

It's so frustrating to see something like this and realize that an increasing number of people align their views with the anti-fascists, thinking they are the "good guys", without seeing the inherent hypocrisy of the beliefs they hold. On paper the anti-fascists portray themselves as accepting, but the reality is quite the opposite. Generally speaking they are authoritarian pricks who will label anyone who disagrees with them as racist or bigoted simply to undermine their point of view. No idea should be above criticism.

I think privileged white people are the largest problem in society these days. I think violence should only be used as a last resort to self defense. I prefer minorities because I find them to be hard working with strong family values. I think freedom of speech only works if it is universal (especially extending to those I disagree with). I'm not entirely sure what classifies as a "dissenter". I have tremendous respect and appreciation for Jewish culture and the way in which they build community. And yet I have been called a fascist/racist/bigot many times online because I respectfully find the actions and beliefs of ANTIFA abhorrent.

If you scream down viewpoints you don't like rather than seek to understand, if you use violence to intimidate, if you seek to wield power to destroy your political enemies, then YOU are the bad guys. ANTIFA does all of these things then hides behind the ruse of being "anti-fascists" because they are cowards and are no better than the fascists they claim to fight against.

octopus_ink ,

I feel like we're gonna need a lot of citations here.

fossilesque ,
@fossilesque@mander.xyz avatar

Ah yes, big Antifa.

TheOriginalGregToo ,

Meaning what exactly?

toaster , (edited )
@toaster@slrpnk.net avatar

Not OP, but you're saying they're authoritatian when it's patently a decentralized, anti-authoritarian and leaderless movement. This shows a fundamental lack of understanding about what anti-fascists are.

No offence, but it sounds like your views are largely shaped by more right-leaning media's depictions of antifa.

fossilesque ,
@fossilesque@mander.xyz avatar

You get me.

MindTraveller ,

Hey look it's a fascist.

j_overgrens ,

While I don't agree with the op, you're kind of proving their point...

fossilesque , (edited )
@fossilesque@mander.xyz avatar

It's more like this:

I must make two honest confessions to you, my Christian and Jewish brothers. First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.

I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that law and order exist for the purpose of establishing justice and that when they fail in this purpose they become the dangerously structured dams that block the flow of social progress. I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that the present tension in the South is a necessary phase of the transition from an obnoxious negative peace, in which the Negro passively accepted his unjust plight, to a substantive and positive peace, in which all men will respect the dignity and worth of human personality. Actually, we who engage in nonviolent direct action are not the creators of tension. We merely bring to the surface the hidden tension that is already alive. We bring it out in the open, where it can be seen and dealt with. Like a boil that can never be cured so long as it is covered up but must be opened with all its ugliness to the natural medicines of air and light, injustice must be exposed, with all the tension its exposure creates, to the light of human conscience and the air of national opinion before it can be cured.

  • MLK

https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html

I don't personally like to pretend to be civil with people who do not extend the same courtesy, even if they are ignorant of their own contradictions. Good friends tell people they are wrong when they need to be told.

octopus_ink ,

https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/4e0be779-81e3-42fb-9b50-4616a7a0671b.jpeg

TheOriginalGregToo ,

What specific thing did I say that makes me a fascist?

poVoq ,
@poVoq@slrpnk.net avatar

Assuming the most benign interpretation: sorry but you are confusing justified self-defense with what actual fascist do. I guess you are familiar with the paradox of tolerance, but I recommend you thinking about that one again in the context of Antifa.

octopus_ink , (edited )

I think privileged white people are the largest problem in society these days. I think violence should only be used as a last resort to self defense. I prefer minorities because I find them to be hard working with strong family values. I think freedom of speech only works if it is universal (especially extending to those I disagree with). I’m not entirely sure what classifies as a “dissenter”. I have tremendous respect and appreciation for Jewish culture and the way in which they build community. And yet I have been called a fascist/racist/bigot many times online because I respectfully find the actions and beliefs of ANTIFA abhorrent.

While I would never put words in Angela Davis' mouth, I think this more or less covers it. Please avoid the temptation to skip forward or you won't appreciate what she is bringing together to make her final point. It's not a very long video, only about 3 minutes.

https://youtu.be/2HnDONDvJVE

Also:

https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/fdff85a3-47d2-412b-bd93-6c01e8e52041.jpeg

GarlicToast ,

This shit is so misleading. Fascism isn't the only authoritarianism. They too are anti-fascists. But you don't get free speech.

Nor is it a white only problem, or deadly only to Jewish people.

HoornseBakfiets ,

I’d like to bet your average hard Antfa is a whole lot less authoritarian than the average Mega fan.

And while I agree that authoritarianism is bad, so is libertarianism (see Theresa May)

GarlicToast ,

Communism is also a stinking pile of shit.

HoornseBakfiets ,

Communism by its nature must be combined with authoritarianism so yes.

But it would be wrong to conflate communism with current western left wing policies.

GarlicToast ,

Current western left wing values is too broad of a term.

From great ideas such as equal rights, that goes into the small details. Phrasing questions in classrooms to males only for examples. With great science behind it to show that it in fact removes success bias for males in maths.

To destructive ideas such as diversity hires.

From great ideas such as financial help to disabled people.

To destructive ideas such as forcing small businesses to be accessable with heavy fines that may break them.

From great ideas such as opposing the Israeli occupation of the West Bank.

To destructive ideas such as supporting Hamas. Which is a big WTF for me.

NekoKamiGuru ,
@NekoKamiGuru@ttrpg.network avatar

Antifa has not been taking much action against the violence directed at Jewish students at colleges around the world , despite the fact that many of these Jewish students are not Zionists, they are just identifiable as Jewish and so are conflated into being Zionists.

Redredme ,

Im just a tad disappointed that according to this graphic fascism (which isnt exactly the same as nazism but whatever) is strictly a white issue.

Which, if you look at the world, clearly isn't the case. Fascism is everywhere.

heavy , (edited )

Nobody is ever considering how the whites feel 😤

Uh oh, angry angry whites! Keep the Tiki torches at home depot, fellas.

Redredme ,

Sigh.

Nazism isn't the same as fascism. Nazism does care about your ethnicity. Fascism does not.

But whatever.

Sazruk ,

No need to sigh, your points are salient and valid

heavy ,

You're not the smartest guy in the room, I think most people understand that.

I don't think you understand that you're white knighting (haha) for white people like they need protecting or something, like that's the concern here.

It sounds like you don't give a shit about countering fascism, you give a shit about defending white people.

Just be mindful that you're in an echo chamber environment here.

Or don't, keep fighting the fight for the whites 💪

Redredme ,

Yeah, you seem a lot smarter. Good for you.

MindTraveller ,

Have you ever heard of Japanese fascists? Or Jewish fascists? Any race can be fascist.

heavy ,

Oh wow, that's crazy. White people too though right?

samus12345 ,
@samus12345@lemmy.world avatar

So you're saying White Fascists Matter?

MindTraveller ,

Yes, that's what "any race" means.

LibertyLizard ,
@LibertyLizard@slrpnk.net avatar

Memes that come with citations? Now that’s how you shitpost.

mal3oon ,

Fascist definition: Anyone I disagree with.
That's some solid research conrade.

Zozano ,

You should host a course titled:

How to identify yourself as a fascist 101

Also, fuck off, fascist.

mal3oon ,

Also, fuck off, fascist.

Thanks for proving my point.

Zozano ,

this you?

mal3oon ,

Yes? Let's not make this thread too, make your argument and let me reply, this is no irc chat.

Sanctus ,
@Sanctus@lemmy.world avatar

No, this is airing dirty Nazi laundry. Say Nazi shit, get called a Nazi.

LibertyLizard ,
@LibertyLizard@slrpnk.net avatar

Are you referring to something specific here or just venting? I certainly don’t call anyone I disagree with a fascist, but there are many people in the present society who advocate for fascist ideas. What else should we call them?

alsaaas ,
@alsaaas@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

The main job of fascism is to protect capital when the majority of the working population grows disillusioned with capitalism and might get the wrong ideas about socialist revolution and stuff

lvxferre ,
@lvxferre@mander.xyz avatar

Guys, regarding white ethnonationalism: the key word here is egregious.

Sure, you got fascists who are not ethnonationalists. Or who are ethnonationalists towards another "race", such as the Hindutva ideology. However, white ethnonationalists are an egregious example. They exemplify the issue with fascism amazingly well, because they're the worst of the worst, and they're extra common.

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