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jaschen ,

We have these trucks in Taiwan. It's quite literally the majority of the trucks on the road. These things are not allowed on the highways because a crash in them will result in likely death.

Instead they are only allowed on local roads where our speeds don't reach anything more than 40km/hr. Even then, the crashes I have seen in them, the driver is always hurt.

I know Lemmy likes to dream about owning a kei truck. But keep in mind that these trucks are not safe in crashes. They were never designed with the speeds that Americans see on a daily basis.

RememberTheApollo_ ,

Because there’s a market for functional, minimalist vehicles that do a job and don’t require 8 or more years of payments. Trucks have become status symbols more often than not.

rimjob_rainer ,

I just want a Kei car in Germany

TheReturnOfPEB ,

How long until these are banned ?

Jollyllama ,

Already are banned in a few states, relegated to being registered as off road vehicles only.

TheReturnOfPEB ,

I saw in the article that they are legal in 19 states. I did not see the off road vehicle bit. Interesting, and thanks.

phoenixz ,

We are the party of free market capitalism! We won't allow rules to stop us from polluting the shit out of everything, we won't allow rules that will make the world better! We only allow rules that block the competitors of our biggest bribers

ShaggySnacks ,

Free market for me, not for thee.

intensely_human ,

This is it basically. People think free markets are bad for humanity, but all the problems are for when people just reach out and stop the free market from happening.

That’s government’s job: maintain an actually free market, where new people can come in and give people what they want, when the existing guys fail to do so.

It takes active input of energy to maintain that state of affairs. There will always be people who want to take control of it in unfair ways and get profit without providing the best value to the people, and it’s in our collective best interests to stop those people. So it’s legit to
spend taxes on things like breaking up monopolies or maintaining infrastructure.

Free market doesn’t mean it happens naturally. It used to happen more naturally, because the total amount of power a person could wield over others was limited. But ever since we’ve had armies and ultra wealthy families and huge companies, all of which can exert power over individuals, a free market is a thing which requires government enforcement to maintain.

I think our problem might be that our government isn’t financially dominant. It is militarily dominant, and so it’s able to
maintain the relative safety that comes from
having a monopoly on violence. But the government doesn’t have a monopoly on financial power and so it can be overpowered by money.

Crikeste ,

Regardless of bans, I’ve heard these cars are INCREDIBLY hard to import. Not only is getting permits for them difficult, but many places selling them domestically have gone around the laws regarding them, resulting in people’s Kei trucks being taken by the government and shipped back to Japan on their dime.

It’s not an easy thing to get into.

Uncaged_Jay ,

It's already happening in some states

StaySquared ,

Nah I'm good.

I currently drive on a daily basis a Toyota Corolla.. I purchased it for the sake of saving as much money as possible overall with said vehicle. I'm 6'0 245lbs - not obese mind you... and I'm genuinely tired of getting in and out of that car. Absofkinlutely NO way am I buying another sedan. Next vehicle is a big boy full sized SUV or pickup truck. I want to climb into my vehicle not damn near tear my knee just trying to get into my vehicle.

brian ,

idk, I'm 6'6 and I despise having to drive full size pickups and SUVs. they're made for short people to feel tall. A decent proportion I can't even see street lights in lol.

The cars that have been good for me have been weird, like my s10 fits me better than any full size truck, outbacks and other cuv aren't bad either, especially newer ones. I've heard there are sedans that are better fit for taller/bigger people, but I haven't looked much there

StaySquared ,

Damn that's crazy. I also own a Honda Odyssey (Mini-van) and that has a lot of room. I've driven in Yukons, Suburbans, Tahoes, Sierras, and Escalades, all of these vehicles feel incredibly roomy. However, I'd rather stick to Toyota, just haven't gotten into a Tundra or Sequoia.

coaxil ,

Yeah shrug, I'm decently taller and heavier than you are, and my daily is a recent ford focus, and serves me well. Perhaps that Carolla is just a bad fit rather than the whole class of car?

StaySquared ,

How the hell do you get into your car? If I get into my Corolla without bending my other knee like I'm trying to tear ligaments and tendons, opposing knee will smash into my steering wheel.

coaxil ,

I sit butt first into the driver's seat, then rotate legs under the wheel, and then I'm in, no crazy knee positions etc

Jollyllama ,

Sounds less like your car hurting you and more likely your lack of mobility. Try stretching?

StaySquared ,

I do mobility work for sure. In the realm of powerlifting, it's necessary. Otherwise injuries will definitely occur sooner or later, regardless of the weight.

Drivebyhaiku ,

How often do you sit cross legged on the floor? A lot of stretching routines are basic maintenance but getting to actual comfort is a different thing entirely. Getting up regularly and relaxing into floor sitting while watching tv has done me wonders personally. The first while is rough though.

Don't get an SUV or Raised truck. They might be comfortable but they are dangerous to other vehicles on the road.

Semi_Hemi_Demigod ,
@Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world avatar

I'm 6'4" and 250 lbs and I drive either a small Volvo station wagon or a VW GTI. I fit in them just fine and my knees aren't a problem. Hell, the seats in my Volvo are so good I sit in them when my back hurts.

I want to climb into my vehicle and not damn near tear my knee

More evidence for my theory that the prevalence of SUVs and trucks is because old people can't handle low cars, and old people are the only ones buying new cars at the moment.

StaySquared ,

Damn son, I'm not old haha

Semi_Hemi_Demigod ,
@Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world avatar

You're buying a bigger car because your knees hurt, which is pretty old.

StaySquared ,

Well for a few reasons. Bulk groceries (Sam's club / Costco), we use the van for that. Same thing when I need to purchase large items from hardware stores. Or even transport large items. But yeah, the way I get into my car, I have to bend my left knee in such a way that it sometimes produces a sharp pain in the inside of my knee. If I try to get into the driver seat like a woman, which is butt in first rather than right leg in first, I end up hitting the top/back part of my head on the top door frame.

If it was an integrity issue with my knee(s), I wouldn't be squatting 500lbs+.

Semi_Hemi_Demigod ,
@Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world avatar

All of that is a pretty boomer mentality, my dude. I can fit tons of stuff in my two small cars and if there's something huge I get it delivered or rent a truck.

StaySquared ,

Okay, I'm a boomer. A boomer that in hopefully a couple years (when the market gets back to normal) will finally own a truck <3

phoenixz ,

Your knees sound 65+

jj4211 ,

I’m 6’0 245lbs - not obese mind you…

Technically obese. You'd have to lose 25 lbs to not be obese.

Of course Obesity is defined by BMI, and BMI is probably not as good as BRI and you might be closer to healthy by waist circumference. However your weight is probably not as healthy as you might think it is.

StaySquared ,

LOL.

coaxil ,

Haha, as I mentioned elsewhere, my assumption was you are jacked, not fat?

StaySquared ,

I sit at about 13% bodyfat at this weight, per DEXA scan. At 230lbs, I sit at the lower end of 9% bodyfat. Or at least that's what it was last year. Once a year I lean out then get a DEXA scan done to compare percentages of bodyfat vs muscle mass, this gives me an idea, on paper, if my muscle mass has increased or not.

coaxil ,

I'm assuming he is some kind of weight training person, and given the squat from another post, strength athlete. Dude is most likely pretty jacked, not fat

jj4211 ,

Strong is not mutually exclusive with fat.

I have a friend who made ability to lift heavy stuff basically his whole identity. Correlated with that was at any gathering he made a big show of eating just way more than everyone else because he's a "big guy" and his muscles demand that much. So long as he could lift, obviously he must be fit, he works out after all. Basically his concept of masculinity is lift the heaviest stuff and eat the most stuff.

Now he's struggling with diabetes and liver problems, despite being crazy strong. Never did cardio, and ate way more than he needed.

Yes, BMI can be misleading and being a bit muscular can have a higher BMI and be healthier than BMI says, but odds are if you are up in the obese territory, you probably are packing a lot of visceral fat screwing up your gut.

StaySquared ,

So I'm not strictly a powerlifter. My first 15 years of gym training was for the sake of size (bodybuilding), once I reached a certain size I decided to move onto powerlifting for the sake of strength. However, in order to maintain my size I mix both powerlifting with bodybuilding, or what we call, "powerbuilding". After two years of strict powerlifting, I noticed smaller muscle groups were getting outshined by other muscle groups and it was causing not just visual imbalances / asymmetry but also strength and stability imbalances (the heavier the weight the more strength you need in all working muscles and these muscles also need to keep me stabilized throughout the movement) which was impacting my bench press for example.

So at best, I can promise you, I'm not obese. Obese for me would be entering about 25% BF, which would push my weight to around 270lbs if not a little more than that.

Malfeasant ,

I'm about your size- I was comfortable in a Mini Cooper. I still regret trading it in.

Semi_Hemi_Demigod ,
@Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world avatar

I almost bought a Mini the last time I got a car. I love the feeling of strapping a car on.

RamblingPanda ,

Besides taking way less space on the road or while parking, you'll only have to lift your stuff half the way up to the RAM or something like it. I personally like not breaking my back.

Snapz ,

What is the too small for road safety thing? That's pure bullshit, right? Smart cars are legal, how can these not be?

Give us cheap EVs and small trucks god damnit!!!

Simulation6 ,

Sounds like some lack basic safety equipment like seat-belts.

jonne ,

I guess it's just the lack of any crumple zone, similar to the VW van your legs are essentially the crumple zone.

Blackmist ,

Yeah, I'd imagine it's fine down gridlocked Tokyo streets where you might be doing 20mph.

Probably not so good in a 70mph highway collision though.

atocci ,

IIRC, these things exist to exploit a legal loophole around vehicle registration in Japan as well. Safety is not the highest concern lol

Drivebyhaiku ,

It might be more about what vehicles share the road. SUVs and pickups tend to cause the majority of fatalities in crashes because their bumper height basically being non compatible with cars and vans and their larger blindspots... That design might not play particularly well with the Keis in crash situations.

But that being said SUVs and raised pickups are menaces to road safety across the board and we should be looking at phasing them out.

GamingChairModel ,

They don't pass US federal crash tests, probably because of the lack of crumple zone, so they can't be imported until they're 25 years old. Which doesn't make them any safer, but I guess rules are rules:

Because the trucks don’t meet Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards, they’re legal to import only 25 years after having been manufactured. Then, it’s up to each state to decide whether to allow them on public roads.

zgasma ,
@zgasma@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

I have one. No crumple zone. No airbags. Slow acceleration. Can't reach highway speeds. No headrest.

But it's my favorite car ever. I just treat it like I'm riding a motorcycle. I'm dead in an accident, so I try to be hyper-aware.

maxso216 ,
@maxso216@ani.social avatar

https://ani.social/pictrs/image/9ccd6cb7-eed7-4b3b-a86d-61db8bff65d0.webp

Used commonly in railway maintenance in Japan! This budget friendly truck is favoured by JR which want to cut budget on everything.

You999 ,

Any idea what that MOW truck is for? The second cab in the rear is really throwing me off.

maxso216 , (edited )
@maxso216@ani.social avatar

https://ani.social/pictrs/image/877f756e-bafe-40d4-b650-5fe05aef2d97.webp

For towing ?

You999 ,

If it was just for towing it wouldnt have a cab in the rear like that.

thejoker954 ,

The 2nd cab is just so they can drive forward in either direction on the rail.

ikidd ,
@ikidd@lemmy.world avatar

That's nowhere in the same size class as OPs. It's just the same style with a cab-forward design. It's probably a 3-ton.

maxso216 ,
@maxso216@ani.social avatar

https://ani.social/pictrs/image/091062dd-336d-4126-ba3b-b7b99f612eb9.webp

How about this?

ikidd ,
@ikidd@lemmy.world avatar

That's the same model. Its a much heavier duty truck than these little flitter trucks referred to in the OP.

I'm not sure what you're not understanding here.

maxso216 ,
@maxso216@ani.social avatar

https://ani.social/pictrs/image/4e2dd021-6ca7-4f69-ac2b-0873f7b5ed37.webp

https://ani.social/pictrs/image/fb94ef33-4185-4536-b684-13ea0721d909.webp

Should be correct now? Not really good at identifying car.

ikidd ,
@ikidd@lemmy.world avatar

That's more like it.

Etterra ,

As much as overpaying sucks, that thing is just asking to get obliterated on an American road.

Duamerthrax ,

Or just use them in cities or rural areas. Not everyone goes onto the freeway everyday.

calcopiritus ,

Are American roads like one of those bumper car thingies of the amusement parks?

buddascrayon ,

A great number of people use highways the way you would drive a race track.

ColeSloth ,

Here's where they're legal, and exactly how legal they are in the US

Many of the "legal" states aren't all that legal, really.

mechoman444 ,

So people are tired of paying 60 to 90k for an f150 or a Dodge ram? You don't say!

JJROKCZ ,

I’ve wanted one of these for decades but the options are pay out the ass for import fees or buy a 30 year old model, neither fee great. Hate that my government is apparently dead set on all of us driving massive trucks and SUVs over realist vehicles

GenosseFlosse ,

It's almost as if car manufacturers and big oil write the laws to increase their own profit margins...

DeVaolleysAdVocate ,

If these don't meet road safety requirements then it won't get better

Madison420 ,

The giant American trucks don't meet American road standards....

s_s ,

The road standards are designed to protect the occupants, not the other users on the road.

This is a critical flaw with current safety and CAFE standards.

Blackmist ,

Yeah, but they've got better lobbyists.

moon ,

What standards do they not meet?

dejected_warp_core ,

Hate that my government is apparently dead set on all of us driving massive trucks and SUVs spending thousands to money lenders, auto manufacturers, and dealerships over realist vehicles.

Doubly so if those parties are campaign contributors. Always follow the money.

DudeImMacGyver ,

Uh oh, better ban them!

nexussapphire , (edited )

I think someone who tried to do that might just disappear in this day and age. Don't ask gen-z, we won't know.

madkins ,

My state did, otherwise I'd be driving one right now. A friend with a Subaru Sambar is being told hers should not have been allowed to be registered and is trying to fight it.

Fades , (edited )

woulda been nice to know which state

for anyone else:

Map: https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/kei-truck-legal-states

No recorded law: 28

Legal: 19

Illegal: 2

https://keitruckconnect.com/us-states-you-can-drive-kei-trucks/

State-Specific Legality of Kei Trucks: The permissibility of these compact, fuel-efficient vehicles varies across the U.S., largely due to differing safety and environmental standards.

Are Kei Trucks Legal in California? In the Golden State, Kei trucks can be driven on local roads, but not on freeways. This is due to the fact that many of these vehicles are not equipped with EPA-compliant engines for highway use. However, there are no restrictions on their use for off-road activities. Their off-road capabilities make them a popular choice for those in need of a compact work or recreational vehicle.

Are Kei Trucks Legal in Texas? In the Lone Star State, the situation is a bit different. Kei trucks are not street-legal due to the state’s stringent safety standards for passenger vehicles. These trucks often lack standard safety features such as airbags and seatbelts, which can make them less safe in an accident. However, there are exceptions to this rule. If the mini truck is used for agricultural purposes or has been modified to meet the state’s safety standards, it may be allowed on public roads. In these cases, the necessary permits and inspections are required.
Laws Governing Kei Trucks in other States. The permissibility of Kei trucks varies greatly across the U.S. For instance, in Alabama, you can use mini trucks on any public roads except interstate highways. The speed limit for these vehicles is 25 mph.

Florida allows registered mini trucks to operate only on streets with a posted speed limit of 35 mph or less. In Louisiana, you can use mini trucks freely with a speed limit under 55 mph. North Carolina allows mini trucks to be licensed and used on all NC roads.

In Washington, mini trucks are street legal. Wyoming permits mini trucks on any roads except for interstate highways. It’s important to note that none of the 50 states allow mini trucks on interstate highways. This is due to safety reasons and the fact that most Kei trucks can only reach a maximum speed of 65 mph, which is lower than the speed limit on interstates.

Fades ,

Way ahead of ya!

Map: https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/kei-truck-legal-states

No recorded law: 28

Legal: 19

Illegal: 2

https://keitruckconnect.com/us-states-you-can-drive-kei-trucks/

State-Specific Legality of Kei Trucks: The permissibility of these compact, fuel-efficient vehicles varies across the U.S., largely due to differing safety and environmental standards.

Are Kei Trucks Legal in California? In the Golden State, Kei trucks can be driven on local roads, but not on freeways. This is due to the fact that many of these vehicles are not equipped with EPA-compliant engines for highway use. However, there are no restrictions on their use for off-road activities. Their off-road capabilities make them a popular choice for those in need of a compact work or recreational vehicle.

Are Kei Trucks Legal in Texas? In the Lone Star State, the situation is a bit different. Kei trucks are not street-legal due to the state’s stringent safety standards for passenger vehicles. These trucks often lack standard safety features such as airbags and seatbelts, which can make them less safe in an accident. However, there are exceptions to this rule. If the mini truck is used for agricultural purposes or has been modified to meet the state’s safety standards, it may be allowed on public roads. In these cases, the necessary permits and inspections are required.
Laws Governing Kei Trucks in other States. The permissibility of Kei trucks varies greatly across the U.S. For instance, in Alabama, you can use mini trucks on any public roads except interstate highways. The speed limit for these vehicles is 25 mph.

Florida allows registered mini trucks to operate only on streets with a posted speed limit of 35 mph or less. In Louisiana, you can use mini trucks freely with a speed limit under 55 mph. North Carolina allows mini trucks to be licensed and used on all NC roads.

In Washington, mini trucks are street legal. Wyoming permits mini trucks on any roads except for interstate highways. It’s important to note that none of the 50 states allow mini trucks on interstate highways. This is due to safety reasons and the fact that most Kei trucks can only reach a maximum speed of 65 mph, which is lower than the speed limit on interstates.

Waraugh ,

KIA*

ssj2marx ,

I would love a Kei truck, but I don't live in a state where you can legally have one. That said I really think that if a Japanese manufacturer brought a barebones electric Kei to the American market they could make a killing because "people who want a truck but not a massive truck" is a totally unserved market segment.

BlitzoTheOisSilent ,

Kei trucks have the same, if not slightly bigger/smaller, bed size as a modern F-150. But they're basically the size of Honda Fits.

I've wanted one since I worked for USPS and learned to drive on the right side of a vehicle. My state does allow you to register them and drive them on the road, but alas, I cannot afford one. :(

John_McMurray ,

Kei trucks only can carry like 800 pounds. I run a bar and regularly take my pickup truck, a 2500, to its bed capacity of roughly 3000 lbs. I've had it sitting low just in empties before. A Kei truck can't even haul my motorcycle if it breaks down. Now someone who's a full time contractor, would call that thing useless, a farmer might buy one instead of a John Deere gator or side by side. It'd be suitable for golf course maintenance.

ssj2marx ,

Yeah but most people don't know what their bed capacity is and they never test it. Maybe something like the old Ranger is the optimal size truck for the average person, but our politicians wrote environmental standards which somehow incentivize making the biggest vehicles that can possibly fit on the road instead of making reasonably sized vehicles but with more efficient engines.

chiliedogg ,

It was a backlash to auto manufacturers classifying everything as a truck to get around emissions and fuel economy standards. The fucking PT Cruiser was a "truck" according to Chrysler.

So they started classifying standards based on vehicle footprint with the idiotic hope that would make the manufacturers act better, but the manufacturers realized they could just make cars bigger every refresh cycle to stay ahead of CAFE.

John_McMurray ,

Station wagons are classed as trucks, is why the PT Cruiser fell in there.

John_McMurray ,

Yeah, a ranger would be ideal for a run around, could even tow my old camper, thing only weighs 3000 lbs. I'd just have to make more frequent beer runs of lesser amounts. At least a ranger can hold an old harley.

BlitzoTheOisSilent ,

Yep, I'm a contractor, I would absolutely only own one to use for work if I had a big property, and it'd be groundskeeping. Just FYI though, Kei trucks are used as contractor/work trucks in Japan, as are Kei vans.

But your average person's Home Depot trip isn't going to be close to what a contractor would use. And, just like what currently happens, if your vehicle can't handle an outlying circumstance, you either rent one that can or have the materials delivered.

So beyond work applications, and towing which most people don't need the size vehicle they have for what they're towing, modern pickup trucks are oversized and unnecessary for probably 95% of people.

John_McMurray ,

ten sheets of 3/4 inch plywood is pushing the capacity of a Kei. That's right in the middle of homeowner use.

Astongt615 ,

Ford and Hyundai have tried to bring service to that market with the Maverick and Santa Cruz, respectively. My folks have one and love it, but I've found most people still complain because they "don't need that big if a truck" but then you mention towing/hauling capacity and they say "well why can't it just tow something small like an F150 does? I'm not trying to get a dually but if I didn't want to do X then I'd just get a car!" I suspect most people's "truck needs" would be accommodated but fomo and marketing leads buyers astray even when they already know what they want. Or they're fickle and just need something to complain about.

HiddenLychee ,

What do you find people want to tow? I'm often at a loss when people bring this up because I've never once had a moment in my life where I was disappointed by the lack of towing capacity of my small car

I_Has_A_Hat ,

Camping. Boats. Moving furniture. Gay party floats. The list goes on.

Maggoty ,

What the heck do you need to tow for camping if you have a pickup truck? I can see boats, but boat people buy the towing capacity they need. Not the size of truck.

John_McMurray ,

Is legal here to tow two trailers if the first is 5th wheel. You can bumper hitch a boat behind your camper. This take a fairly serious truck, and is why I have a 5th wheel trailer that's only 19 feet.

Maggoty ,

Yeah, but the second you need a fifth wheel then you need a pickup truck bed to put the receiver in.

John_McMurray ,

Well yeah. It looks funny when I only tow the camper, as my truck is 21 feet long, the camper 19, and with the fifth wheel setup, the truck appears to dwarf that camper.

barsoap ,

Note that Americans basically all drive automatic transmissions, those have a thing called a torque converter. Unless that part is actively cooled it's going to overheat when asked to do high-torque stuff over prolonged durations and as that active cooling needs space and weight it generally only comes with truck-sized vehicles.

In short: The reason Americans don't haul caravans and horses and boats with cars is because they can't drive stick.

HiddenLychee ,

Ah I see! You see I am also American and have an automatic, but don't have the funds or space for boats, caravans, or horses. I definitely did not know that about the torque converter, so thank you for that info!

I guess I just always assumed that those with the money and land for those activities you listed are wealthy enough to be in the extreme minority, but the way you say this makes me think my friends across the pond have a different perspective. Perhaps I am also in a bit of a bubble, having grown up in and only talk to people in a similar economic class.

barsoap ,

Oh boats are definitely a big money thing (unless we're talking inflatable, even with outboard motor), horses well you just may have a crazy horse girl on your hands -- they definitely cost money but are affordable on an insurance clerk's salary, but caravans aren't expensive. You can get a decent used one for 5k and camping grounds and cooking for yourself are quite a bit cheaper than hotels and restaurants. Maybe the difference is that over here, people do have vacations.

And simple flatbed trailers are even cheaper, under 1k if you're lucky, new. If you're DIYing and are transporting material regularly but don't want a VW Transporter or such (as most contractors would use) those definitely make a lot of sense.

dual_sport_dork ,
@dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world avatar

?

Every automatic transmission car sold since the 1970's and probably earlier has had a transmission cooler, right there alongside or in front of the radiator.

interdimensionalmeme ,

Also all of them have locking torque converters so there is no energy loss at constant speed.
Also also, unless going upward at an incline. Most of the power requirements come from aerodynamic drag, not rolling friction of the trailer.

barsoap , (edited )

You can't lock the converter when accelerating because that's not a constant speed you'll stall the motor under the torque load, and to accelerate you need to overcome momentum. Neither drag nor rolling friction are anywhere close to high torque.

And I have no idea what the previous poster meant with a transmission cooler, I guess it's a different thing because a torque converter very much is not a transmission, if you want to compare it to anything then to a clutch. In any case I've got that explanation from an actual American actual car mechanic and random lemmings aren't going to change my mind especially while making no mechanical sense.

AlotOfReading ,

A torque converter is part of the whole transmission system even if it's a separate housing. When you buy a new transmission, it comes with a torque converter.

Torque converters also create the majority of heat in automatic transmissions and are why automatic transmissions get coolers in the first place. How many manuals have you seen with transmission coolers?

barsoap ,

You're right, granted, it's probably just a bad name.

Then, though, are those cooling systems systems you find in small cars sufficient to cool the thing under sustained high torque loads? Like stop and go city traffic on flat terrain with 2.5t of fully-packed caravan behind it? How much space and weight does it take to beef them up to be able to deliver the same performance of a manual? Is it still sufficient to hook the thing up to the engine cooler, how much more radiator area do you need? Does that even fit a car? Is that why SUVs are designed to hide small kids in front of them? (ok I'll stop now).

boonhet ,

Stop and go city traffic isn't all that sustained, because of the stop part.

None of my cars so far have had any issues towing ~2 tons, I'm not sure why 2.5 would be that much worse.

Of course, they've each had 400 newton-meters of torque out of their dinky little diesel engines.

John_McMurray ,

Torque converters use transmission fluid to operate, that tranny fluid goes through a cooler.

interdimensionalmeme ,

No, you can accelerate and deccelerate. Only needs to unlock for gear changes.

Only in city would the torque converter spend an appreciable amount of time unlocked but then again, in the city you won't be moving fast either

barsoap ,

Neutral to one is a gear change and connecting gear one firmly to the motor is going to stall it when you're accelerating from standstill. With a petrol engine just the torque needed to get going is going to stall it that's why you slip the clutch with a manual, a trailer will also stall diesels.

With a torque converter in between you'll also have to let it slip as it's serving the function of a clutch. Trying to slip the lock of the converter will kill it pretty much instantly, it's not build for that so you have to have it unlocked.

I was interpreting "constant speed" as "zero speed difference between motor and drive train" which was probably a bit of a brain fart. You need that slippage to not stall the motor.

dual_sport_dork ,
@dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world avatar

Wow. The remaining 7,950,999,999 people on this planet now have something to be thankful for, because none of them are as wrong as you.

You clearly did not actually understand what your mechanic told you.

A transmission cooler is exactly what it sounds like. It is built exactly like a radiator and works the same way. It is mounted in front of or next to the radiator for the engine. On a lot of newer cars it is actually part of the main radiator. Transmission fluid flows through it and excess heat is dumped into the air. On many vehicles it's also served by the radiator fan, i.e. for situations where the vehicle is not getting airflow because it's not moving.

The torque converter is part of your automatic transmission literally operates by moving the transmission fluid. There is no separation between the transmission fluid used in the torque converter and the rest of the transmission where the hydraulic valves use it to actuate the clutch bands, etc. to shift gears. The same bath of transmission fluid is circulated through the torque converter, the rest of the transmission, and the transmission cooler.

This is not a truck thing. Even my dinkum Saturn SL I had when I was a teenager that was so pathetic it was literally made of plastic and did not crack 100 horsepower had a transmission cooler -- as designed from the factory. The vast majority of passenger vehicles made in the last half century or more with automatic transmissions have transmission coolers built in. It has nothing to do with towing, either.

Your torque converter absolutely can be locked under acceleration and in fact, nearly all vehicles equipped with a locking torque converter do so as part of their normal shifting pattern when moving up through their gears. This is observable from the driver's seat if you know what's happening. The locking and unlocking of the torque converter feels like an "extra gear" in between the gears. Some Japanese cars from the 80's have a "TC Locked" light on a dash that illuminates when the converter is locked and you can watch this happen in real time. The usual pattern is 1st gear, shift to 2nd gear, lock converter, unlock converter and shift to 3rd, lock converter, unlock converter and shift to 4th, etc. A traditional automatic transmission only has 4 gear ratios, but it will feel like it has seven. Guess why.

Think about it real hard for a minute. A locked torque converter is the same, mechanically, as a fully engaged clutch. If you could not lock the torque converter during acceleration, by the same logic you would not be able to fully release the clutch pedal during acceleration on a manual transmission car, either. It is glaringly obvious that this is not the case.

I am not a "random lemming." I have four decades of actual real world mechanical experience and have disassembled and rebuilt more transmissions, engines, and vehicles in general than you have probably sat in throughout your entire life.

barsoap ,

A locked torque converter is the same, mechanically, as a fully engaged clutch.

Which stalls the motor under high torque load.

dual_sport_dork ,
@dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world avatar

Tell us you didn't read what I just wrote without telling us you didn't read it.

The engine will only stall under load if it is at so low of an RPM that it is generating insufficient torque to overcome the inertia. Which if you are moving and in the correct gear for your speed is never.

Which is why your transmission has more than one gear.

Remember back 30 seconds ago when I told you to think? Actually try it this time. Or maybe plug some of your bullshit into Google first before continuing to make a fool of yourself in front of everybody.

barsoap ,

Which if you are moving and in the correct gear for your speed is never.

In stop and go traffic it's practically always. The car needs to be able to handle that, it can't be rated higher than that situation.

dual_sport_dork ,
@dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world avatar

Which is why automatics have torque converters and manuals have clutches. It's almost like we've come full circle or something!

Millions and millions of vehicles are driving on the world's roads right now, happily tooling along under the sound mechanical and physical principles known as "reality," completely heedless of your apparent inability to understand it.

barsoap ,

Yes and a manual can slip the clutch, it's built for that. A torque converter can't slip the lock, it's not build for that, it has to stay open. And that generates a fuckton of heat.

dual_sport_dork ,
@dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world avatar

And? Come on, you're almost there. Just two more neurons to put together:

That's why the transmission cooler is there.

Wrap up: Your original claim that Americans "can't" tow due to predominantly driving automatic transmission cars, in addition to being an uncreative and tired thinly veiled attempt at insulting Americans, is not only wrong but also prima facie absurd.

barsoap ,

And is the cooler in cars big enough to have noticeable towing capacity, or do you need a bigger one that only really fits a truck? How much additional radiator area do you need per additional ton of towing capacity (overcoming momentum, not tongue weight that can easily be zero just get a four-wheeled trailer)? For manuals, that's zero additional radiator area. For automatics, I'll leave the maths to you.

dual_sport_dork ,
@dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world avatar

And is the cooler in cars big enough to have noticeable towing capacity

Yes, it is. Do you realize that manufacturers publish a maximum towing capacity as part of their specifications for every vehicle? This is publicly available information, right there on the internet. It's not a secret. The required surface area for the cooler is designed right in by the manufacturer for the transmission to work for the vehicle's application. This not a case of something "extra" being added. It's just how cars with automatic transmissions are built to begin with.

The published towing capacity for most vehicles that are available in both automatic and stick are exactly the same. Would you care to guess why that is? You could have figured it out for yourself if you would bother to actually do some extremely minimal internet research instead of continuing to shoot your mouth off on whatever this ill-informed little crusade of yours is.

Your initial claim is false. End of discussion. Just stop. You're making a fool of yourself.

barsoap ,

Yes, it is. Do you realize that manufacturers publish a maximum towing capacity as part of their specifications for every vehicle?

And have you compared EU spec manuals vs. American model versions? When it comes to specs there's another big difference which I didn't mention: Tongue weight. Which isn't towing capacity and EU spec trailers have drastically lower tongue weight for their rated carrying capacity: Because we actually pull loads with light vehicles. As already said, put four wheels on a trailer and the tongue weight is practically zero. Our trailers also come with brakes.

dual_sport_dork ,
@dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world avatar

What, so now you're trying to split hairs over the regulatory differences between the US and Europe to attempt to distract from the fact that you still haven't addressed making the following demonstrably false statements?

  • Your notion that automatic transmissions "need" active cooling that they "don't" have when in fact they do, and
  • Your claim that torque converters "can't" be locked during acceleration when they provably regularly are, and
  • Your claim that your engine "will stall" if the transmission can't "slip" even while the vehicle is already in motion. (Hint: Get your car rolling, don't touch the clutch, and take your foot off the accelerator pedal. Did it stall instantly? Did it stall when you got back on the accelerator, either? Of course it didn't, because inertia is a process that exists.)
  • Bonus points for blathering about "trying to slip the lock of the converter," which also makes no sense because that's not how torque converter lockups work nor attempt to work, nor has anyone proposed they work that way.

 

For the benefit of anyone else reading this, the difference in rated tow capacities between US spec and Euro spec vehicles is, as you have almost correctly observed, down to regulations and the trailer designs and not the tow vehicles themselves. There is no difference between the cars or their transmissions mechanically (nor the laws of physics -- anywhere on the planet, I guarantee it). European regulations have two critical differences between the US, to wit:

  1. Vehicles towing trailers are typically limited to ~60 MPH or the equivalent, whereas in the US they are not (at least outside of some specific state laws).
  2. Tongue weight requirements are significantly lower, because nobody owns a body-on-frame truck which is necessary to support a high tongue weight.

 

This is because it is dangerous to tow a low tongue weight trailer at high speed. America has no such speed or tongue weight restriction, and we also have interstates with 85 MPH speed limits. Thus our target tongue weight is roughly 15% of the total load, largely in order to keep the trailer under control at speed and prevent it from snaking all over the place and rolling itself and the vehicle. All other things being equal this ultimately winds up in the tongue weight being the limiting factor for most unibody vehicles. If your tongue weight is limited at e.g. 200 pounds, which it is for my bog standard Subaru Crosstrek, solving for the estimated tow capacity assuming 15% of it is 200 lbs would be roughly 1333 lbs. What's the US spec rated tow capacity of a Crosstrek? Oh wow, it's 1500 pounds. Imagine that. (For both the manual and automatic/CVT versions, by the way.)

FYI, we also have trailer brakes over here, and many states require them to be used on loads exceeding 3000 pounds. Below that, the trucks most people use have adequate mass and braking capacity to handle towing trailer loads in and of themselves. It turns out, the actual reason Americans tow with trucks is because Americans tow with trucks, and our towing regulations and trailers are designed around the expectation of towing with trucks. It's a just a cultural thing. No need to try to make it complicated nor make up fictitious bullshit about automatic transmissions.

But none of this has anything to do with your original assertions re: automatic vs. manual transmissions. I'm not arguing any other points with you.

As a matter of fact, I'm not arguing any more points with you at all. You have no idea how cars work. Go away.

barsoap , (edited )

Your notion that automatic transmissions “need” active cooling that they “don’t” have when in fact they do,

I'm saying that to pull heavy loads they need active cooling. And they do. They also have cooling when not designed for heavy pulling, but they don't need as much cooling because all the mechanics you literally agree with me over: More cooling is needed under heavier loads. This isn't some far-out concept it's physics, it's what happens when you put oil in essentially a blender, it gets hot.

Then, and this seems to get ignored by you: Americans aren't pulling heavy loads with cars. Why? Do you have an alternative explanation?

What’s the US spec rated tow capacity of a Crosstrek? Oh wow, it’s 1500 pounds.

1270 kg over here (with trailer brakes, 12% incline). That's nearly twice. Tongue weight: 80kg. That's less.

And that's a Japanese SUV. You can get VW Golfs with 1.8t towing capacity, that's a compact car. Also pure combustion ones, the Crosstrek is a hybrid it's easy to get low-end torque with one of those and transmission is a whole another topic.

This is because it is dangerous to tow a low tongue weight trailer at high speed. America has no such speed or tongue weight restriction, and we also have interstates with 85 MPH speed limits.

That's why trailer brakes exist and don't pretend 140km/h are fast... though with a trailer you're generally limited to 80 or 100 here, depending on make and whatnot. Maybe you should introduce speed limits, regulations for brakes on trailers, etc. Maybe you would if your small cars could even tow that much, physically. You should also start to use the left lane for overtaking only and get rid of those ludicrous amounts of stop signs and build your cities so that people can move in them, not just cars, but I'm digressing.

John_McMurray ,

1200 kg isn't a heavy load.

barsoap ,

For a lorry, no. For a private vehicle, yes. Standard driving licenses only allow for up to 3.5t combined permissible weight (that is, vehicle and trailer plus maximum load), 750kg of those for trailer and load. If you want to drive a combination of vehicle and trailer individually up to 3.5t (so total 7t) you need a trailer license, anything above that you need a lorry license with all bells and whistles such as regular medical checkups.

Or, differently put: A standard VW Golf can pull almost thrice as much as most drivers are allowed to pull.

A small load for a private vehicle would be a small empty caravan, or a light trailer with some bikes. A Smart Fourtwo can pull 550kg which will definitely look silly but is otherwise perfectly reasonable, that's enough for both applications.

John_McMurray ,

What a sad country.

John_McMurray ,

Also, towing heavy, actually heavy, not 1200 kg, went away in cars about 1990. Emissions regulations, really. 1985 olds, Chrysler, could safely yank around a 4500 kilogram horse trailer. That all went away, now it's cars that could maybe 1000 lbs amd trucks that can pull 5 to 15000 kg loads. Btw, the old auto tow transmissions like the hydromatic 400, didn't have a lock up at all. Jaguar used to buy them.from Chevy for use in the old XJS v12s .

Ookami38 ,

Drop the mic, bro. You earned it.

vivavideri ,

They stopped SELLING THEM TO US!!!

Maggoty ,

I drove a 99 Ranger into the ground. It was absolutely fine in every way that truck people care about. Give us back our small trucks!

dual_sport_dork ,
@dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world avatar

The Ranger/B2000, S-10, and first Tacoma were really the sweet spot for compact pickup trucks but you won't get them back, because all of them got killed by CAFE.

Astongt615 ,

CAFE, safety, larger wheels, more gadgets. These mega corps do their research. Turns out the "real small truck lovers" are a vocal minority, or the things you say you want didn't include all the things you take for granted in every new car because they just...are.

dual_sport_dork ,
@dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world avatar

Not me. I'm content to be the minority. My truck is from '99 and newer vehicles annoy the shit out of me.

I don't want gadgets and I don't want to need a stepladder to get in it, either. 8' bed, single cab, crank windows.

Maggoty ,

Look up manufactured consent. When you mix American conservative male identity with American consumerism then it no longer matters that they would prefer smaller trucks. They will buy what's offered, at the insane price it's offered. (Pickup truck margin and dealer mark up is one of the highest)

So no, the mere sale of larger vehicles doesn't mean I'm in a minority. In order to get that data you'd need to have smaller pickups on offer at the same time.

lightnsfw ,

It's the same shit as with smartphones. "If people wanted a headphone jack/removable battery/SD slot/whatever then why are they still buying smartphones?" BECAUSE THERE ARE NO OPTIONS THAT HAVE WHAT THEY WANT. I haven't bought a phone since 2017 and I won't until forced into it by circumstances. We literally can't vote with our wallets because what we want isn't on the ballot.

lightnsfw ,

Ford and Hyundai have tried to bring service to that market with the Maverick and Santa Cruz

They didn't try very hard. The Maverick doesn't have a single cab or full size bed option and the santa cruz looks like a SUV with 1/4 of the back chopped off.

Here's a comparison of a 2008 Ranger vs. a 2022 Maverick to show what I mean better. They're roughly the same size but you lose so much with the Maverick.

2008 RANGER
Height 67.7 in.
Length 203.6 in.
Width 69.4 in.
Wheelbase 125.9 in.

2022 MAVERICK
Height 68.7 in.
Length 199.7 in.
Width 72.6 in.
Wheelbase 121.1 in.

https://reddthat.com/pictrs/image/814a96a2-ac5c-4d9d-9a06-62433f1d6a00.png

Fedizen , (edited )

the 2008 ranger is such a nice truck. Maverick is just a minivan with an open trunk. Might as well just get a real minivan.

sugar_in_your_tea ,

I have a minivan and it carries everything we need. If I put down the back seats, it carries about as much ae a Ford Maverick, perhaps more. I can also fold or remove the middle seats for even more space, which is comparable to a full bed. The only thing it can't really do is take dumps of mulch, gravel, etc, but it can tow a trailer for that.

Minivans are fantastic.

Machinist ,
@Machinist@lemmy.world avatar

I drive a 98 Ranger XLT, it has a 5900 lb towing capacity. I'm pretty much going to keep fixing it forever.

lightnsfw ,

If that happened I'd buy one. A truck would make a lot of sense for me but I hate the ones that are available so much I couldn't stomach buying one. I just make due with my old civic and borrowing my dads colorado when I need to move big stuff.

PsychedSy ,

Chicken tax and EPA nuttery. It's fucking bullshit.

Fedizen ,

I'm in the "hatchback car or tiny truck" market for my next car.

GameWarrior ,

I got one off of marketplace in great condition for a good deal. It is very practical and fun to drive. Also you get a lot of looks.

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