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9point6 ,

I'm sorry, why the fuck aren't these street legal in more than half of the states? The article says something about safety, but these are street legal all over Europe where we have stronger safety regulations.

Also there's something I can't put my finger on about the journalist choosing a hero image of the van losing its cargo.

catloaf ,

Probably because it's not safe to drive them around giant pickups who can't see over their hoods

brbposting ,

Ya. Everything’s expensive, so people buy the cheapest thing [with four wheels]. I don’t want folks on the lower end of the socioeconomic spectrum to think these are a safe option.

If(?) a ‘90s Honda sedan is safer but the Kei is new and looks cute, for the same price many will choose the less safe option.

Eight Californians die on our roads every day here and I can’t wait for some solutions. I really do empathize with everyone you readers care about (no oil companies, no just-for-funsies-truck manufacturers) - I hate the thought of crumpled and crushed human bodies.

FalseMyrmidon ,

What makes you think it's not safe?

brbposting ,

Just added something about that - articles & crash tests over the years. Was interested in little vehicles myself. Intrigued seeing them on college campuses.

neuracnu ,
@neuracnu@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Thin steel frame, no air bags, no crumple zones.

Check out the crash tests: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roLcNwRi1Sk&t=40s

Buelldozer ,
@Buelldozer@lemmy.today avatar

Wow, the Kei truck does not fare well at all in that offset test!

brbposting ,

https://i.ibb.co/L1rkv26/RPReplay-Final1718218737.gif

Ouch

NocturnalMorning ,

How's that different from driving a car roughly the same size?

CaptDust ,

Just noting as a reference these trucks are 11ft long, a Miata is roughly 20% longer at 13ft.

David_Eight ,

Just for reference a Fiat 500 is roughly 9.75 feet long.

CaptDust ,

Maybe in the 70s, a modern 500 is listed at 11.6 ft

David_Eight ,

It looks like I got my info mixed up, thank you for the correction.

sparky1337 ,

Doing comparisons like these don’t make sense when motorcycles and trikes exist.

CaptDust , (edited )

I didn't really intend for it to be a comparison or supporting the narrative these trucks are 'too small for America', I just find many people hear small truck and imagine "like a ford ranger but a little less", as their starting reference point. Gotta go smaller, scale is tough.

sparky1337 ,

My bad. It just seems like the low hanging fruit everyone plays off of.

We actually used to get vehicles close to this size. The Suzuki samurai (really a jimny) was sold here for a number of years. Geo sold a fair number of almost kei cars that Suzuki made.

I’m a fan of limiting them from interstate highways, but keeping them registrable. It’s just dumb they cite “safety” even though the law explicitly calls out they aren’t required to be safe. I just want a nice 25-45 mph city truck to lug dirty junk around.

But if anyone is curious, Douglas deBoard imported so many European cars in the 80’s that cut into the profits of Mercedes USA enough that they pushed the law through. Buying them in Europe and importing them was actually cheaper (in some aspects) than buying a US market one. And the imported cars were better equipped!

It wasn’t even about protecting American manufacturers or trucks. Mercedes has just always been a huge dick.

kalpol ,

No lie. Gray market Mercedes were awesome. Way more powerful and you could get base models with zero cruft - manual transmissions and wind up windows.

bobs_monkey ,

Europe and Japan all have freight trucks driving around, so I don't buy that. The fact that many states won't allow these is American truck manufacturing protectionism, nothing more. It's the same reason you can only get a 3/4 or 1 ton truck from Ford, Chevy, or Ram (chicken tax).

YaDownWitCPP ,

It's all about the chicken tax.

jaspersgroove ,

Cab over engine freight trucks with excellent visibility, not jacked up chevys where your view of the ground starts 20 feet in front of you

bobs_monkey ,

And that's precisely because the option isn't readily available here. We can argue merits of different countries versus the US, but at the end of the day it is what it is unless something changes at the legislative level.

When say a contractor goes to purchase a work vehicle, the option is either a van, which have pathetic motors and hauling capabilities, or a pickup from one of the big 3 that can be outfitted with a utility body. Sometimes you can score one of those Isuzu cabovers, but they're typically outfitted with a full sized box on the chassis, and they're far and few between, and often more expensive. Vans are also stupid expensive, especially 4x4 models, because of the van life crowd. The options really are much more limited than other parts of the world, and I truly believe it's to keep prices high and the money vacuum humming. Plus, you can find an older utility body truck for a fraction of the cost of a used van (I just did this 6 months ago; granted I'm in California, so my experience may not be the norm).

I ended up buying a Ram 2500 when looking for a work truck. I would've loved a 25/35 class van, but I need 4x4 (mountains, snow), and because of the premium those models fetch due to demand from the van life people, that wasn't an option.

And I dunno about other people, but I know what's in front of my truck at all times. It really isn't that hard to mind your surroundings.

unexposedhazard ,

The front view from a freight truck is better than that of a f150.

bobs_monkey ,

Sure, but as I responded to someone else, show me a viable option that's readily available in the states for a contractor or someone delivering heavy stuff that has the power and 4x4 to do the thing at a reasonable price. I'm all for getting some of these European/Japanese solutions over here, but they simply aren't available or affordable, and so we're stuck with oversized pickups and under powered vans until something changes.

brbposting ,

Ban anything bigger than a Kei?

https://sh.itjust.works/pictrs/image/92587400-d363-48bf-b342-b86ca2ee6c30.jpeg

https://sh.itjust.works/pictrs/image/04c0f16c-7f6e-42c0-9b8f-275b69ce8ea0.jpeg

Source

RGB3x3 ,

I'm sorry, their problem is that the massive trucks are somehow in danger because they weren't designed to handle being hit by a vehicle less than half its size?

What a ridiculous statement.

Live_your_lives ,

That's not what they are saying at all. They're saying small vehicles aren't even safe in crashes with other small vehicles, let alone with bigger vehicles.

brbposting ,

They took a street legal Smart ForTwo…

https://sh.itjust.works/pictrs/image/bff5dc11-6294-4dd0-8f56-68a06e377ab8.jpeg

Then crashed it into a little electric truck and a golf cart…

https://sh.itjust.works/pictrs/image/e5b98f37-d344-484a-aa87-c92bb3ac6d8f.jpeg

And they want stuff to be as safe as the Smart car.

blazera ,
@blazera@lemmy.world avatar

This is how we got in this mess, an arms race of trying to feel safe around larger and larger hunks of metal on the road. Americans just have to endanger everyone else for their own peace of mind.

Tikiporch ,

And yet Smart cars are legal.

caffinatedone ,

Smart cars had to pass US crash test standards and have the appropriate safety equipment. The kei trucks that you can currently import and use are 25+ years old and wouldn't have even passed US standards back then. Your legs are the crumple zone in these things.

I assume that new ones would have a chance, but it'd be expensive for a manufacturer to modify and certify for the US market. Small cars haven't sold well here, and the profit margins are slim.

Maybe with the recent size and price increases in autos here, well see some movement. I'd love a modern Honda kei to go with my element.

Tikiporch ,

I get all that, but the individual I replied to only related small size to safety. I was merely pointing out that size isn't a factor.

I appreciate your post, and agree completely! A Kei truck would satisfy all my requirements for a utility vehicle.

Sentient_Modem ,

The crumple zone thing is a bit grey as the USA sells and allows trucks like the Isuzu NPR/Chevy Cab Over.

NeoNachtwaechter ,

But then it's these giant pickups which are unfit and should not be road legal.

afraid_of_zombies ,

Protectionism.

Telodzrum ,

European road safety regulations are significantly weaker than those in the US and Canada.

9point6 ,

Pretty sure that's not the case, had a little Google and it seems like I'm right, but I'm open to being corrected if I'm wrong or misunderstanding what you mean. Here's evidence to support my claim:

https://etrr.springeropen.com/articles/10.1007/s12544-014-0131-7

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0001457518300034

https://irpj.euclid.int/articles/the-dissimilar-determinants-and-outcomes-of-road-safety-in-the-united-states-and-the-european-union/

Ibuthyr ,

You've never been to Europe, lol.

Telodzrum ,

I’ve lived in several European countries and also worked in compliance departments for auto manufacturers. You have zero clue what you’re talking about.

baru ,

Yet you back up your claim with nothingness. Not quite sure how living in a country makes you an expert on regulations. Why didn't you add substance? The compliance department in the companies I worked for wouldn't be experts btw.

Altofaltception ,

Speed restrictions.

Kei trucks were designed for use in dense Japanese cities, which is why they also work in European cities. They are nimble but have a low top speed. You're not going 70 mph around a street corner for instance.

It would work in places like NYC for the same reasons, but remember that most of the USA is suburban or rural. You need vehicles that are capable of going fast if you're going to get on a highway.

A possible workaround is to have a separate class for these, like mopeds or scooters, which are road legal but are not highway legal.

Nougat ,

In Illinois, at least, your motorcycle has to be 150cc to ride on the interstate. A Chinese GY6 scooter might be able to do 50MPH with a tailwind. You'd get killed on the interstate on one of those, yet, fully legal to do it.

Altofaltception ,

You'd get killed on the interstate on one of those,

You guys in Illinois are crazy though. I learned very quickly how much that 55 MPH limit is a guideline and not a hard limit.

Nougat ,

A long, long time ago, I used to drive from Kenosha, WI, to Wilmette (and later Northfield), IL, for work, down I-94, in a 1986 Honda CRX. Up until about Tower Rd., I was doing 105MPH every day, and people were passing me like nothing.

Buelldozer , (edited )
@Buelldozer@lemmy.today avatar

[Thread, post or comment was deleted by the author]

    •
    snooggums ,
    @snooggums@midwest.social avatar

    They might have been looking at the kph instead of mph. 65 mph (105 kph) with everyone passing sounds about right.

    JJROKCZ ,

    Depends on what part of Illinois you’re talking about, I’m from southern Illinois and we typically only go about 60/65 on highway and 75/80 on interstate. Chicagoans will honk and pass me while I am doing 80 through 2 lane construction zones, literally happened a couple months ago as I was driving to O’Hare for an overnight flight

    CaptDust ,

    That work around is what most states that explicitly legalized kei trucks have done, they can't enter roads over 55mph. It's a reasonable concession, you probably don't want to take one over 50mph anyway.

    catloaf ,

    Most places in the US are connected by 55 mph roads. I'd be hard-pressed to get anywhere but the city center in most places I've lived if I couldn't use those roads.

    Farm equipment and bikes use those roads all the time, and they go even slower, so I don't think being able to keep up with traffic is a valid concern.

    bobs_monkey ,

    Southern California is entirely navigable by surface streets, but also too, there are plenty of vehicles going only 55 in the slow lanes, which is the speed limit for trucks anyway (though few pay attention to it). I have a '72 camper that can barely do 50, and I take it on the freeway several times a year.

    CaptDust ,

    Note that I said over 55, rural connection roads should still be traversable since most are 55. Basically limits them from entering the interstate highways.

    Grangle1 ,

    I live in one of the most rural states in the country, where loads to haul are generally large and the posted speed limit on the highway is usually 75 mph, and the de facto highway speed is usually 5-10 mph above that. No truck that can barely push 70 is gonna keep up with that. On top of that, you're dealing with ice and snow on the roads half the year, so you'll need to be able to deal with that too.

    umbrella ,
    @umbrella@lemmy.ml avatar

    thats honestly a problem that can be solved with a small turbocharger and a slightly higher msrp, its not like they are ever getting close to the price of one of the huge ones.

    Brkdncr ,

    They don’t meet the us safety standards. It could mean a lot of things like lacking 5mph bumpers, air bags, abs, etc.

    Doesn’t mean they aren’t safe.

    Buelldozer ,
    @Buelldozer@lemmy.today avatar

    Doesn’t mean they aren’t safe.

    At just 31MPH a Kei truck gets absolutely clobbered in front offset and side impact safety tests, even against small vehicles like Smart Cars and the old (small) Ford Rangers. Like don't bother calling an ambulance just the morgue kind of clobbered.

    Kei trucks are neat vehicles and I'd like to have one but scientific testing shows that they are not safe.

    Mmrnmhrm ,

    yet people are killed / injured on european road at much smaller rate than in the US. the best US state is less safe than even the worst canadian province (and canada isnt even good). the US treats its roads like a car crash derby so it needs “higher standards”, but that approach is provably terrible. not only vehicules are huge and wasteful, but the roads remain horribly unsafe as well.

    Brkdncr ,

    Just because a vehicle doesn’t meet us safety standards doesn’t mean they aren’t safe. It also doesn’t mean they are safe.

    Also, aren’t these all 25 years old or older? Safety expectations should be lower.

    MeatStiq ,

    Here in the states we have legal corruption lobbyists which the auto manufacturers pay to keep cheap vehicles from being used. And then the lawmakers claim safety concerns as the reason.

    someguy3 ,

    Different crash standards in US and Europe. Most companies don't even bother getting cars tested (designed?) in both because the market demands are so different.

    Hugh_Jeggs ,

    This has got to be the most incorrect comment in the thread

    Edit - ah wait no, Check this fuckin idiot

    Addv4 ,

    They're not really safe. They are generally front heavy, so there is a risk of rolling forward, no crumple zone safety stuff, more often than not the front suspension is under the seat and if that breaks it would shoot up into the cabin, and on top of everything they are pretty slow. They have more in common with an off road Polaris than a traditional truck, which is to be expected because they were mostly designed to be farm trucks. I'd much rather be in an older s10 than a kei truck in the event of a crash (and s10's aren't very safe). I think I lot of why they are so popular these days is because there aren't really any light trucks anymore, and these are an alternative.

    frezik ,

    We should take a step back: why do we need all those safety standards in the first place? The reason is that we have such gigantic vehicles in the first place, and smaller ones simply cannot be safe on the same road. Level that all down and suddenly Kei cars are as safe as they need to be.

    Addv4 ,

    Not really. I compared it to an older Chevy s10 for a reason. Those were relatively small trucks that, while not always the most reliable, are still a pretty decent option for most people. Kei trucks are a smidge smaller, but are better on gas and frankly less safe. I don't think this is a "get rid of bigger vehicles and this goes away" but of a "Kei trucks aren't really any safer than an off-road golf cart and current regulations allows them on the road". We need the safety regulations so less people die on Auto accidents, and kei trucks don't really have to comply with even the basic ones.

    TAG ,
    @TAG@lemmy.world avatar

    The problem is not even big trucks. It is medium speed collisions with barriers. Kei trucks typically don't have air bags or a crumple zone. They are designed for low speed driving on open roads.

    Cryophilia ,

    I wrapped a 2017 SUV around a telephone pole and didn't get a scratch. It's not all about other cars.

    treadful ,
    @treadful@lemmy.zip avatar

    I'd still own one if they were just banned on highways. The risk is probably pretty low on low speed city streets, where these would be most useful.

    Addv4 , (edited )

    I actually considered it when I last looked for a new vehicle but besides being too expensive for what they are ($10k for a 90s cheap truck) they made a lot of compromises on them. For instance, on most the struts and springs are right under the seats, so if that breaks it would come right up into your legs. If the truck is rusty and going over bumps, that is a non zero possibility.

    childOfMagenta ,

    For the hero image, that could possibly just be an attempt at a "fun" way of showing that they can carry a lot by mean of hyperbole.

    "Look at that tiny truck, it's bursting with boxes!"

    OfCourseNot ,
    @OfCourseNot@fedia.io avatar

    Where exactly are these legal in Europe? I've never seen one, we have small-ish trucks (that get bigger every iteration) but not this tiny, that I know of. Pretty sure they're not legal in my country at least.

    TheGrandNagus ,

    They're definitely legal, they're just not sold. I've seen them, but they're generally sold by importer companies that sell JDM vehicles. A business in my area has a fleet of kei pickups

    NeoNachtwaechter ,

    in Europe?
    but not this tiny,

    You don't know the Ape? It's really everywhere in Europe.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piaggio_Ape

    OfCourseNot ,
    @OfCourseNot@fedia.io avatar

    No I didn't, they might be everywhere but they aren't very common (maybe in Italy..). I've seen the other small plagio truck (because that Ape is not a truck, barely a bit more than a scooter), but only a handful and it's been like ten years since the last I saw, and they aren't as small as these kei trucks (these are as long as a fiat 500).

    baru ,

    You don't know the Ape? It's really everywhere in Europe.

    I haven't seen those in the Netherlands, Belgium, Germany except maybe once in 5 years. Further, it's seems not comparable. In Netherlands it likely wouldn't be considered a car. It likely would fall under the max 45 kmh regulations.

    GamingChairModel ,

    Traditionally they've been banned because they don't do well in crash testing, as they don't have crumple zones or airbags. Here's some testing from 2010 by the insurance industry arguing that they shouldn't be on highways.

    Someonelol ,
    @Someonelol@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    We desperately need smaller vehicles to counter the behemoth light trucks that are in the road today. Everything about these kei truck bans just scream corruption and incompetence from politicians to domestic auto manufacturers.

    someguy3 ,

    They stopped making Honda Fits (in North America) because there was no demand.

    Kethal ,

    Do you consider a Honda Fit a light duty truck?

    someguy3 ,

    The topic of oversized vehicles is not limited to trucks.

    Kethal ,

    In a post about small light duty trucks, and a comment about small light duty trucks, you're pointing out that compact sedans are not popular. Would you like to point out some other true but off topic things? Most sedans are two wheel drive. SUVs are the most popular body style.

    someguy3 ,

    "No one is allowed to deviate at all in the slightest bit ever, to the obvious bigger topic!!!"

    gamermanh ,
    @gamermanh@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    It's entirely irrelevant to bring up one specific type of vehicle being cancelled because people didn't like it, which can be for a shitload of different reasons beyond just size

    BigLgame ,

    This is true, yet I see a lot of them on the road and speaking for my circle of people I know plenty of people who want them. It's a shame really as I was only left with the civic and that's the same size as my old accord.

    venusaur ,
    @venusaur@lemmy.world avatar

    Americans just love being the biggest on the road. Bigger is better in their minds. Maybe we put an extra tax on very large vehicles.

    best_username_ever ,

    It's not only Americans though. French car makers also sell big SUVs to everyone because it's very important to have the biggest car ever when you bring back a small bag of groceries, or when you desperately need to be on top of the world in the traffic jams. I see those morons every day and it saddens me.

    venusaur ,
    @venusaur@lemmy.world avatar

    damn, i would have expected the french to have better taste in their vehicles

    best_username_ever ,

    Nope, it's over since the invention of SUVs and leasing cars. Nowadays everyone has a big car or an expensive car.

    venusaur ,
    @venusaur@lemmy.world avatar

    Does Citroen make SUV’s now? They must be smoooooooth

    chocoladisco ,

    They do, they are as ugly as all the other SUVs

    RGB3x3 ,

    We need to require special licenses for those behemoths.

    I'd prefer they get banned entirely because there's really no practical use for them that isn't solved by some other commercial vehicle.

    venusaur ,
    @venusaur@lemmy.world avatar

    i've thought about that for high performance vehicles, but probably more important for very large vehicles. like a B/C license.

    Monument ,

    The other day an edible and an aliexpress misadventure really got me wondering “Why shouldn’t I have an electric cargo trike”?

    It’s the biggest tricycle I can find!

    venusaur ,
    @venusaur@lemmy.world avatar

    Haha because it’s from aliexpress. I think it’s a great idea though. You can haul things. Don’t need roads. Looks cool. Good for the environment

    Monument ,

    I know. If one were made by a known entity and not the price of an actual vehicle, I would be very tempted.

    venusaur ,
    @venusaur@lemmy.world avatar

    Aliexpress with the bangers:

    https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256806575592267.html

    thesystemisdown ,

    Or stop making fuel artificially inexpensive?

    venusaur ,
    @venusaur@lemmy.world avatar

    Tell me more

    dirthawker0 ,

    I'd love to see a comeback of vehicles like 1980s Toyota and Mazda pickups. Just a bit taller than sedans, good sized bed. I never understood the popularity of trucks that almost need a mini ladder to get into when they're being used strictly in an urban or suburban setting.

    venusaur ,
    @venusaur@lemmy.world avatar

    Yeah it’s just people trying to show how big their penis is with a car

    lolcatnip ,

    "Light" trucks. A real light truck is something like the Toyota Hilux up through the 5th or 6th generation.

    captain_aggravated ,
    @captain_aggravated@sh.itjust.works avatar

    My S10 is a "light truck." A Silverado 3500 is not.

    tabular ,
    @tabular@lemmy.world avatar

    What ban?

    GeneralVincent ,

    Many US states have laws preventing people from registering these kei class trucks.

    For example,
    https://dmv.ny.gov/registration/how-register-imported-vehicle

    On that page

    KEI-Class vehicles cannot be registered or titled in New York State. (Authority: Section 400-a of NYS VTL)

    tabular , (edited )
    @tabular@lemmy.world avatar

    Is there a reason for the ban related to how the car is built or designed, or is it politics?

    LordGimp ,

    Politics. If you can register a motorcycle or atv, there's zero excuses for not being able to register a light truck like a kei truck. Honestly they're basically industrial grade golf carts.

    GeneralVincent ,

    I think any person who has a hand in making those laws would say it's for safety. Though I also think many people looking at it and comparing it to other vehicles that are allowed would call it politics/corruption/stupidity. I personally think it's politics

    ssj2marx ,

    I would love a Kei truck, but I don't live in a state where you can legally have one. That said I really think that if a Japanese manufacturer brought a barebones electric Kei to the American market they could make a killing because "people who want a truck but not a massive truck" is a totally unserved market segment.

    BlitzoTheOisSilent ,

    Kei trucks have the same, if not slightly bigger/smaller, bed size as a modern F-150. But they're basically the size of Honda Fits.

    I've wanted one since I worked for USPS and learned to drive on the right side of a vehicle. My state does allow you to register them and drive them on the road, but alas, I cannot afford one. :(

    John_McMurray ,

    Kei trucks only can carry like 800 pounds. I run a bar and regularly take my pickup truck, a 2500, to its bed capacity of roughly 3000 lbs. I've had it sitting low just in empties before. A Kei truck can't even haul my motorcycle if it breaks down. Now someone who's a full time contractor, would call that thing useless, a farmer might buy one instead of a John Deere gator or side by side. It'd be suitable for golf course maintenance.

    ssj2marx ,

    Yeah but most people don't know what their bed capacity is and they never test it. Maybe something like the old Ranger is the optimal size truck for the average person, but our politicians wrote environmental standards which somehow incentivize making the biggest vehicles that can possibly fit on the road instead of making reasonably sized vehicles but with more efficient engines.

    chiliedogg ,

    It was a backlash to auto manufacturers classifying everything as a truck to get around emissions and fuel economy standards. The fucking PT Cruiser was a "truck" according to Chrysler.

    So they started classifying standards based on vehicle footprint with the idiotic hope that would make the manufacturers act better, but the manufacturers realized they could just make cars bigger every refresh cycle to stay ahead of CAFE.

    John_McMurray ,

    Station wagons are classed as trucks, is why the PT Cruiser fell in there.

    John_McMurray ,

    Yeah, a ranger would be ideal for a run around, could even tow my old camper, thing only weighs 3000 lbs. I'd just have to make more frequent beer runs of lesser amounts. At least a ranger can hold an old harley.

    BlitzoTheOisSilent ,

    Yep, I'm a contractor, I would absolutely only own one to use for work if I had a big property, and it'd be groundskeeping. Just FYI though, Kei trucks are used as contractor/work trucks in Japan, as are Kei vans.

    But your average person's Home Depot trip isn't going to be close to what a contractor would use. And, just like what currently happens, if your vehicle can't handle an outlying circumstance, you either rent one that can or have the materials delivered.

    So beyond work applications, and towing which most people don't need the size vehicle they have for what they're towing, modern pickup trucks are oversized and unnecessary for probably 95% of people.

    John_McMurray ,

    ten sheets of 3/4 inch plywood is pushing the capacity of a Kei. That's right in the middle of homeowner use.

    Astongt615 ,

    Ford and Hyundai have tried to bring service to that market with the Maverick and Santa Cruz, respectively. My folks have one and love it, but I've found most people still complain because they "don't need that big if a truck" but then you mention towing/hauling capacity and they say "well why can't it just tow something small like an F150 does? I'm not trying to get a dually but if I didn't want to do X then I'd just get a car!" I suspect most people's "truck needs" would be accommodated but fomo and marketing leads buyers astray even when they already know what they want. Or they're fickle and just need something to complain about.

    HiddenLychee ,

    What do you find people want to tow? I'm often at a loss when people bring this up because I've never once had a moment in my life where I was disappointed by the lack of towing capacity of my small car

    I_Has_A_Hat ,

    Camping. Boats. Moving furniture. Gay party floats. The list goes on.

    Maggoty ,

    What the heck do you need to tow for camping if you have a pickup truck? I can see boats, but boat people buy the towing capacity they need. Not the size of truck.

    John_McMurray ,

    Is legal here to tow two trailers if the first is 5th wheel. You can bumper hitch a boat behind your camper. This take a fairly serious truck, and is why I have a 5th wheel trailer that's only 19 feet.

    Maggoty ,

    Yeah, but the second you need a fifth wheel then you need a pickup truck bed to put the receiver in.

    John_McMurray ,

    Well yeah. It looks funny when I only tow the camper, as my truck is 21 feet long, the camper 19, and with the fifth wheel setup, the truck appears to dwarf that camper.

    barsoap ,

    Note that Americans basically all drive automatic transmissions, those have a thing called a torque converter. Unless that part is actively cooled it's going to overheat when asked to do high-torque stuff over prolonged durations and as that active cooling needs space and weight it generally only comes with truck-sized vehicles.

    In short: The reason Americans don't haul caravans and horses and boats with cars is because they can't drive stick.

    HiddenLychee ,

    Ah I see! You see I am also American and have an automatic, but don't have the funds or space for boats, caravans, or horses. I definitely did not know that about the torque converter, so thank you for that info!

    I guess I just always assumed that those with the money and land for those activities you listed are wealthy enough to be in the extreme minority, but the way you say this makes me think my friends across the pond have a different perspective. Perhaps I am also in a bit of a bubble, having grown up in and only talk to people in a similar economic class.

    barsoap ,

    Oh boats are definitely a big money thing (unless we're talking inflatable, even with outboard motor), horses well you just may have a crazy horse girl on your hands -- they definitely cost money but are affordable on an insurance clerk's salary, but caravans aren't expensive. You can get a decent used one for 5k and camping grounds and cooking for yourself are quite a bit cheaper than hotels and restaurants. Maybe the difference is that over here, people do have vacations.

    And simple flatbed trailers are even cheaper, under 1k if you're lucky, new. If you're DIYing and are transporting material regularly but don't want a VW Transporter or such (as most contractors would use) those definitely make a lot of sense.

    dual_sport_dork ,
    @dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world avatar

    ?

    Every automatic transmission car sold since the 1970's and probably earlier has had a transmission cooler, right there alongside or in front of the radiator.

    interdimensionalmeme ,

    Also all of them have locking torque converters so there is no energy loss at constant speed.
    Also also, unless going upward at an incline. Most of the power requirements come from aerodynamic drag, not rolling friction of the trailer.

    barsoap , (edited )

    You can't lock the converter when accelerating because that's not a constant speed you'll stall the motor under the torque load, and to accelerate you need to overcome momentum. Neither drag nor rolling friction are anywhere close to high torque.

    And I have no idea what the previous poster meant with a transmission cooler, I guess it's a different thing because a torque converter very much is not a transmission, if you want to compare it to anything then to a clutch. In any case I've got that explanation from an actual American actual car mechanic and random lemmings aren't going to change my mind especially while making no mechanical sense.

    AlotOfReading ,

    A torque converter is part of the whole transmission system even if it's a separate housing. When you buy a new transmission, it comes with a torque converter.

    Torque converters also create the majority of heat in automatic transmissions and are why automatic transmissions get coolers in the first place. How many manuals have you seen with transmission coolers?

    barsoap ,

    You're right, granted, it's probably just a bad name.

    Then, though, are those cooling systems systems you find in small cars sufficient to cool the thing under sustained high torque loads? Like stop and go city traffic on flat terrain with 2.5t of fully-packed caravan behind it? How much space and weight does it take to beef them up to be able to deliver the same performance of a manual? Is it still sufficient to hook the thing up to the engine cooler, how much more radiator area do you need? Does that even fit a car? Is that why SUVs are designed to hide small kids in front of them? (ok I'll stop now).

    boonhet ,

    Stop and go city traffic isn't all that sustained, because of the stop part.

    None of my cars so far have had any issues towing ~2 tons, I'm not sure why 2.5 would be that much worse.

    Of course, they've each had 400 newton-meters of torque out of their dinky little diesel engines.

    John_McMurray ,

    Torque converters use transmission fluid to operate, that tranny fluid goes through a cooler.

    interdimensionalmeme ,

    No, you can accelerate and deccelerate. Only needs to unlock for gear changes.

    Only in city would the torque converter spend an appreciable amount of time unlocked but then again, in the city you won't be moving fast either

    barsoap ,

    Neutral to one is a gear change and connecting gear one firmly to the motor is going to stall it when you're accelerating from standstill. With a petrol engine just the torque needed to get going is going to stall it that's why you slip the clutch with a manual, a trailer will also stall diesels.

    With a torque converter in between you'll also have to let it slip as it's serving the function of a clutch. Trying to slip the lock of the converter will kill it pretty much instantly, it's not build for that so you have to have it unlocked.

    I was interpreting "constant speed" as "zero speed difference between motor and drive train" which was probably a bit of a brain fart. You need that slippage to not stall the motor.

    dual_sport_dork ,
    @dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world avatar

    Wow. The remaining 7,950,999,999 people on this planet now have something to be thankful for, because none of them are as wrong as you.

    You clearly did not actually understand what your mechanic told you.

    A transmission cooler is exactly what it sounds like. It is built exactly like a radiator and works the same way. It is mounted in front of or next to the radiator for the engine. On a lot of newer cars it is actually part of the main radiator. Transmission fluid flows through it and excess heat is dumped into the air. On many vehicles it's also served by the radiator fan, i.e. for situations where the vehicle is not getting airflow because it's not moving.

    The torque converter is part of your automatic transmission literally operates by moving the transmission fluid. There is no separation between the transmission fluid used in the torque converter and the rest of the transmission where the hydraulic valves use it to actuate the clutch bands, etc. to shift gears. The same bath of transmission fluid is circulated through the torque converter, the rest of the transmission, and the transmission cooler.

    This is not a truck thing. Even my dinkum Saturn SL I had when I was a teenager that was so pathetic it was literally made of plastic and did not crack 100 horsepower had a transmission cooler -- as designed from the factory. The vast majority of passenger vehicles made in the last half century or more with automatic transmissions have transmission coolers built in. It has nothing to do with towing, either.

    Your torque converter absolutely can be locked under acceleration and in fact, nearly all vehicles equipped with a locking torque converter do so as part of their normal shifting pattern when moving up through their gears. This is observable from the driver's seat if you know what's happening. The locking and unlocking of the torque converter feels like an "extra gear" in between the gears. Some Japanese cars from the 80's have a "TC Locked" light on a dash that illuminates when the converter is locked and you can watch this happen in real time. The usual pattern is 1st gear, shift to 2nd gear, lock converter, unlock converter and shift to 3rd, lock converter, unlock converter and shift to 4th, etc. A traditional automatic transmission only has 4 gear ratios, but it will feel like it has seven. Guess why.

    Think about it real hard for a minute. A locked torque converter is the same, mechanically, as a fully engaged clutch. If you could not lock the torque converter during acceleration, by the same logic you would not be able to fully release the clutch pedal during acceleration on a manual transmission car, either. It is glaringly obvious that this is not the case.

    I am not a "random lemming." I have four decades of actual real world mechanical experience and have disassembled and rebuilt more transmissions, engines, and vehicles in general than you have probably sat in throughout your entire life.

    barsoap ,

    A locked torque converter is the same, mechanically, as a fully engaged clutch.

    Which stalls the motor under high torque load.

    dual_sport_dork ,
    @dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world avatar

    Tell us you didn't read what I just wrote without telling us you didn't read it.

    The engine will only stall under load if it is at so low of an RPM that it is generating insufficient torque to overcome the inertia. Which if you are moving and in the correct gear for your speed is never.

    Which is why your transmission has more than one gear.

    Remember back 30 seconds ago when I told you to think? Actually try it this time. Or maybe plug some of your bullshit into Google first before continuing to make a fool of yourself in front of everybody.

    barsoap ,

    Which if you are moving and in the correct gear for your speed is never.

    In stop and go traffic it's practically always. The car needs to be able to handle that, it can't be rated higher than that situation.

    dual_sport_dork ,
    @dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world avatar

    Which is why automatics have torque converters and manuals have clutches. It's almost like we've come full circle or something!

    Millions and millions of vehicles are driving on the world's roads right now, happily tooling along under the sound mechanical and physical principles known as "reality," completely heedless of your apparent inability to understand it.

    barsoap ,

    Yes and a manual can slip the clutch, it's built for that. A torque converter can't slip the lock, it's not build for that, it has to stay open. And that generates a fuckton of heat.

    dual_sport_dork ,
    @dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world avatar

    And? Come on, you're almost there. Just two more neurons to put together:

    That's why the transmission cooler is there.

    Wrap up: Your original claim that Americans "can't" tow due to predominantly driving automatic transmission cars, in addition to being an uncreative and tired thinly veiled attempt at insulting Americans, is not only wrong but also prima facie absurd.

    barsoap ,

    And is the cooler in cars big enough to have noticeable towing capacity, or do you need a bigger one that only really fits a truck? How much additional radiator area do you need per additional ton of towing capacity (overcoming momentum, not tongue weight that can easily be zero just get a four-wheeled trailer)? For manuals, that's zero additional radiator area. For automatics, I'll leave the maths to you.

    dual_sport_dork ,
    @dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world avatar

    And is the cooler in cars big enough to have noticeable towing capacity

    Yes, it is. Do you realize that manufacturers publish a maximum towing capacity as part of their specifications for every vehicle? This is publicly available information, right there on the internet. It's not a secret. The required surface area for the cooler is designed right in by the manufacturer for the transmission to work for the vehicle's application. This not a case of something "extra" being added. It's just how cars with automatic transmissions are built to begin with.

    The published towing capacity for most vehicles that are available in both automatic and stick are exactly the same. Would you care to guess why that is? You could have figured it out for yourself if you would bother to actually do some extremely minimal internet research instead of continuing to shoot your mouth off on whatever this ill-informed little crusade of yours is.

    Your initial claim is false. End of discussion. Just stop. You're making a fool of yourself.

    barsoap ,

    Yes, it is. Do you realize that manufacturers publish a maximum towing capacity as part of their specifications for every vehicle?

    And have you compared EU spec manuals vs. American model versions? When it comes to specs there's another big difference which I didn't mention: Tongue weight. Which isn't towing capacity and EU spec trailers have drastically lower tongue weight for their rated carrying capacity: Because we actually pull loads with light vehicles. As already said, put four wheels on a trailer and the tongue weight is practically zero. Our trailers also come with brakes.

    dual_sport_dork ,
    @dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world avatar

    What, so now you're trying to split hairs over the regulatory differences between the US and Europe to attempt to distract from the fact that you still haven't addressed making the following demonstrably false statements?

    • Your notion that automatic transmissions "need" active cooling that they "don't" have when in fact they do, and
    • Your claim that torque converters "can't" be locked during acceleration when they provably regularly are, and
    • Your claim that your engine "will stall" if the transmission can't "slip" even while the vehicle is already in motion. (Hint: Get your car rolling, don't touch the clutch, and take your foot off the accelerator pedal. Did it stall instantly? Did it stall when you got back on the accelerator, either? Of course it didn't, because inertia is a process that exists.)
    • Bonus points for blathering about "trying to slip the lock of the converter," which also makes no sense because that's not how torque converter lockups work nor attempt to work, nor has anyone proposed they work that way.

     

    For the benefit of anyone else reading this, the difference in rated tow capacities between US spec and Euro spec vehicles is, as you have almost correctly observed, down to regulations and the trailer designs and not the tow vehicles themselves. There is no difference between the cars or their transmissions mechanically (nor the laws of physics -- anywhere on the planet, I guarantee it). European regulations have two critical differences between the US, to wit:

    1. Vehicles towing trailers are typically limited to ~60 MPH or the equivalent, whereas in the US they are not (at least outside of some specific state laws).
    2. Tongue weight requirements are significantly lower, because nobody owns a body-on-frame truck which is necessary to support a high tongue weight.

     

    This is because it is dangerous to tow a low tongue weight trailer at high speed. America has no such speed or tongue weight restriction, and we also have interstates with 85 MPH speed limits. Thus our target tongue weight is roughly 15% of the total load, largely in order to keep the trailer under control at speed and prevent it from snaking all over the place and rolling itself and the vehicle. All other things being equal this ultimately winds up in the tongue weight being the limiting factor for most unibody vehicles. If your tongue weight is limited at e.g. 200 pounds, which it is for my bog standard Subaru Crosstrek, solving for the estimated tow capacity assuming 15% of it is 200 lbs would be roughly 1333 lbs. What's the US spec rated tow capacity of a Crosstrek? Oh wow, it's 1500 pounds. Imagine that. (For both the manual and automatic/CVT versions, by the way.)

    FYI, we also have trailer brakes over here, and many states require them to be used on loads exceeding 3000 pounds. Below that, the trucks most people use have adequate mass and braking capacity to handle towing trailer loads in and of themselves. It turns out, the actual reason Americans tow with trucks is because Americans tow with trucks, and our towing regulations and trailers are designed around the expectation of towing with trucks. It's a just a cultural thing. No need to try to make it complicated nor make up fictitious bullshit about automatic transmissions.

    But none of this has anything to do with your original assertions re: automatic vs. manual transmissions. I'm not arguing any other points with you.

    As a matter of fact, I'm not arguing any more points with you at all. You have no idea how cars work. Go away.

    barsoap , (edited )

    Your notion that automatic transmissions “need” active cooling that they “don’t” have when in fact they do,

    I'm saying that to pull heavy loads they need active cooling. And they do. They also have cooling when not designed for heavy pulling, but they don't need as much cooling because all the mechanics you literally agree with me over: More cooling is needed under heavier loads. This isn't some far-out concept it's physics, it's what happens when you put oil in essentially a blender, it gets hot.

    Then, and this seems to get ignored by you: Americans aren't pulling heavy loads with cars. Why? Do you have an alternative explanation?

    What’s the US spec rated tow capacity of a Crosstrek? Oh wow, it’s 1500 pounds.

    1270 kg over here (with trailer brakes, 12% incline). That's nearly twice. Tongue weight: 80kg. That's less.

    And that's a Japanese SUV. You can get VW Golfs with 1.8t towing capacity, that's a compact car. Also pure combustion ones, the Crosstrek is a hybrid it's easy to get low-end torque with one of those and transmission is a whole another topic.

    This is because it is dangerous to tow a low tongue weight trailer at high speed. America has no such speed or tongue weight restriction, and we also have interstates with 85 MPH speed limits.

    That's why trailer brakes exist and don't pretend 140km/h are fast... though with a trailer you're generally limited to 80 or 100 here, depending on make and whatnot. Maybe you should introduce speed limits, regulations for brakes on trailers, etc. Maybe you would if your small cars could even tow that much, physically. You should also start to use the left lane for overtaking only and get rid of those ludicrous amounts of stop signs and build your cities so that people can move in them, not just cars, but I'm digressing.

    John_McMurray ,

    1200 kg isn't a heavy load.

    barsoap ,

    For a lorry, no. For a private vehicle, yes. Standard driving licenses only allow for up to 3.5t combined permissible weight (that is, vehicle and trailer plus maximum load), 750kg of those for trailer and load. If you want to drive a combination of vehicle and trailer individually up to 3.5t (so total 7t) you need a trailer license, anything above that you need a lorry license with all bells and whistles such as regular medical checkups.

    Or, differently put: A standard VW Golf can pull almost thrice as much as most drivers are allowed to pull.

    A small load for a private vehicle would be a small empty caravan, or a light trailer with some bikes. A Smart Fourtwo can pull 550kg which will definitely look silly but is otherwise perfectly reasonable, that's enough for both applications.

    John_McMurray ,

    What a sad country.

    John_McMurray ,

    Also, towing heavy, actually heavy, not 1200 kg, went away in cars about 1990. Emissions regulations, really. 1985 olds, Chrysler, could safely yank around a 4500 kilogram horse trailer. That all went away, now it's cars that could maybe 1000 lbs amd trucks that can pull 5 to 15000 kg loads. Btw, the old auto tow transmissions like the hydromatic 400, didn't have a lock up at all. Jaguar used to buy them.from Chevy for use in the old XJS v12s .

    Ookami38 ,

    Drop the mic, bro. You earned it.

    vivavideri ,

    They stopped SELLING THEM TO US!!!

    Maggoty ,

    I drove a 99 Ranger into the ground. It was absolutely fine in every way that truck people care about. Give us back our small trucks!

    dual_sport_dork ,
    @dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world avatar

    The Ranger/B2000, S-10, and first Tacoma were really the sweet spot for compact pickup trucks but you won't get them back, because all of them got killed by CAFE.

    Astongt615 ,

    CAFE, safety, larger wheels, more gadgets. These mega corps do their research. Turns out the "real small truck lovers" are a vocal minority, or the things you say you want didn't include all the things you take for granted in every new car because they just...are.

    dual_sport_dork ,
    @dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world avatar

    Not me. I'm content to be the minority. My truck is from '99 and newer vehicles annoy the shit out of me.

    I don't want gadgets and I don't want to need a stepladder to get in it, either. 8' bed, single cab, crank windows.

    Maggoty ,

    Look up manufactured consent. When you mix American conservative male identity with American consumerism then it no longer matters that they would prefer smaller trucks. They will buy what's offered, at the insane price it's offered. (Pickup truck margin and dealer mark up is one of the highest)

    So no, the mere sale of larger vehicles doesn't mean I'm in a minority. In order to get that data you'd need to have smaller pickups on offer at the same time.

    lightnsfw ,

    It's the same shit as with smartphones. "If people wanted a headphone jack/removable battery/SD slot/whatever then why are they still buying smartphones?" BECAUSE THERE ARE NO OPTIONS THAT HAVE WHAT THEY WANT. I haven't bought a phone since 2017 and I won't until forced into it by circumstances. We literally can't vote with our wallets because what we want isn't on the ballot.

    lightnsfw ,

    Ford and Hyundai have tried to bring service to that market with the Maverick and Santa Cruz

    They didn't try very hard. The Maverick doesn't have a single cab or full size bed option and the santa cruz looks like a SUV with 1/4 of the back chopped off.

    Here's a comparison of a 2008 Ranger vs. a 2022 Maverick to show what I mean better. They're roughly the same size but you lose so much with the Maverick.

    2008 RANGER
    Height 67.7 in.
    Length 203.6 in.
    Width 69.4 in.
    Wheelbase 125.9 in.

    2022 MAVERICK
    Height 68.7 in.
    Length 199.7 in.
    Width 72.6 in.
    Wheelbase 121.1 in.

    https://reddthat.com/pictrs/image/814a96a2-ac5c-4d9d-9a06-62433f1d6a00.png

    Fedizen , (edited )

    the 2008 ranger is such a nice truck. Maverick is just a minivan with an open trunk. Might as well just get a real minivan.

    sugar_in_your_tea ,

    I have a minivan and it carries everything we need. If I put down the back seats, it carries about as much ae a Ford Maverick, perhaps more. I can also fold or remove the middle seats for even more space, which is comparable to a full bed. The only thing it can't really do is take dumps of mulch, gravel, etc, but it can tow a trailer for that.

    Minivans are fantastic.

    Machinist ,
    @Machinist@lemmy.world avatar

    I drive a 98 Ranger XLT, it has a 5900 lb towing capacity. I'm pretty much going to keep fixing it forever.

    lightnsfw ,

    If that happened I'd buy one. A truck would make a lot of sense for me but I hate the ones that are available so much I couldn't stomach buying one. I just make due with my old civic and borrowing my dads colorado when I need to move big stuff.

    PsychedSy ,

    Chicken tax and EPA nuttery. It's fucking bullshit.

    Fedizen ,

    I'm in the "hatchback car or tiny truck" market for my next car.

    GameWarrior ,

    I got one off of marketplace in great condition for a good deal. It is very practical and fun to drive. Also you get a lot of looks.

    Halcyon , (edited )
    @Halcyon@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

    Been to Japan lately and can share some photos. There are even Kei Fire Trucks, for the many small roads with wooden houses and shrines etc.

    https://discuss.tchncs.de/pictrs/image/343b4bd3-fbdf-47d9-ad39-7766d225fdfc.jpeg

    And then there are hundreds of different kei truck and van types for all purposes, even concrete mixers.

    https://discuss.tchncs.de/pictrs/image/7080ffa4-bbe2-44e7-9e2a-8af1a26150e5.jpeg

    https://discuss.tchncs.de/pictrs/image/2e27bb55-1f4a-480b-915d-54bb631db856.jpeg

    https://discuss.tchncs.de/pictrs/image/3a0db47e-a83b-4dc8-99c1-b1da869d0e0a.jpeg

    https://discuss.tchncs.de/pictrs/image/bd981aee-c802-4937-8dde-6f4af1f958ec.jpeg

    https://discuss.tchncs.de/pictrs/image/9d242aa7-dbd3-4677-9ad5-24b069e6137f.jpeg

    Also, private houses in cities are often small and space-saving and so are the cars. A sensible use of public space – and cars only park on private property or rented parking spaces.

    https://discuss.tchncs.de/pictrs/image/d6f0a5e6-36ff-4c5f-9452-35c6fd09e14e.jpeg

    https://discuss.tchncs.de/pictrs/image/9bf4a4a7-f899-4d17-89ec-9eedfd75b183.jpeg

    https://discuss.tchncs.de/pictrs/image/d096c91e-be1c-4865-bfd5-4c5f60c5d178.jpeg

    daddy32 ,

    This is just freaking adorable!

    zalgotext ,

    Ok that black van model goes way harder than it has any right to

    fine_sandy_bottom ,

    These are rad. Weird they're not more popular internationally.

    tigeruppercut ,
    @tigeruppercut@lemmy.zip avatar

    The fire truck's not a kei-- keis have yellow plates

    nalhagen ,

    Neither the fire truck nor the concrete truck are Kei class vehicles.

    They are small diesel trucks, yes, but Kei literally means 'light' and have strict weight limits on both the weight of the vehicle and how much load they can carry.

    Halcyon , (edited )
    @Halcyon@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

    Well, those are also not vehicles that the average citizen buys. They're specialized for their purpose, the fire truck needs to transport a decent amount of water and 4-5 people, and concrete is heavy stuff. But in a certain way they follow the same design philosophy.

    nalhagen ,

    That much is certainly true. It's such a shame that small trucks are not available to buy new in the US.

    Appoxo ,
    @Appoxo@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    I will promise you that those two are not even close to the size of traditional versions you'll see in Germany.

    mojofrododojo ,

    WHAT IS THE WHITE HONDA?

    I've wanted an upgrade to my element but this looks adorbs and 4 door.

    nalhagen ,

    Looks like an N-Box. The rear doors are sliding.

    mojofrododojo ,

    TYVM

    Frostbeard ,

    I guess the size has something to do with the size of Japanese roads and back alley space?

    Halcyon , (edited )
    @Halcyon@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

    Yes in some neighborhoods and villages the roads are so narrow that they can practically only be driven on by Kei cars.

    Japan as an Island has limited space available for natural reasons, plus large parts of the country are mountain area. So the old cities have been built in plains and reached high density. Building is strictly regulated.

    And that has also grown into the culture. The Japanese sense for efficiency is legendary and so you simply don't waste space. And in general, you don't show off with oversized cars. Understatement is part of the general habitus. Shintoism and Buddhism have deep roots and that certainly plays a role too.

    JJROKCZ ,

    I’ve wanted one of these for decades but the options are pay out the ass for import fees or buy a 30 year old model, neither fee great. Hate that my government is apparently dead set on all of us driving massive trucks and SUVs over realist vehicles

    GenosseFlosse ,

    It's almost as if car manufacturers and big oil write the laws to increase their own profit margins...

    DeVaolleysAdVocate ,

    If these don't meet road safety requirements then it won't get better

    Madison420 ,

    The giant American trucks don't meet American road standards....

    s_s ,

    The road standards are designed to protect the occupants, not the other users on the road.

    This is a critical flaw with current safety and CAFE standards.

    Blackmist ,

    Yeah, but they've got better lobbyists.

    moon ,

    What standards do they not meet?

    dejected_warp_core ,

    Hate that my government is apparently dead set on all of us driving massive trucks and SUVs spending thousands to money lenders, auto manufacturers, and dealerships over realist vehicles.

    Doubly so if those parties are campaign contributors. Always follow the money.

    Blaster_M ,

    Reminder that due to the chicken tax, these vehicles have to be 25 years old before they can be imported.

    The big problem is, these vehicles were built to 30 year old safety standards - no vehicle from the 1990's (except maybe a SAAB, and even then they're not strong enough anymore and will fail a small offset frontal) can compete with a modern car in safety requirements.

    There is also the fact that these vehicles have been around for 25 years, and have that amount of age and wear on their platform - they won't be as strong as they originally were off the production line.

    frezik ,

    Even if you could get a new one, I don't think they'd meet US safety standards. Not even close.

    Mind you, the US has to have stringent safety standards because we have gigantic vehicles in the first place.

    mbfalzar ,

    Kei vehicles are exempt from most Japanese safety standards, because they're meant for city driving with max speeds of 40-60 kph and everyone driving them knows and acknowledges that you're just fucked if you get into an accident at speeds higher than that (and not doing great even at 40kph). It's an explicit trade of safety for lower cost

    Kecessa ,

    And if you get it from Japan it's right hand drive so visibility of the incoming lane is crap as well...

    Also, for Kei trucks specifically, cab over engine vehicles are unsafe in frontal collisions no matter what, even modern ones, that's why there's no regular passenger vehicle built like that anymore and it's only heavier vehicles (like moving trucks) that have this setup, they don't fall under the same safety regulations.

    UnderpantsWeevil ,
    @UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

    no vehicle from the 1990’s (except maybe a SAAB, and even then they’re not strong enough anymore and will fail a small offset frontal) can compete with a modern car in safety requirements.

    Americans keep building bigger trucks and raising speed limits, then bemoaning how small vehicles aren't safe enough to survive an 80mph impact with a 10,000 pound vehicle.

    You think these Keis are dangerous? Try riding a bike.

    nexussapphire ,

    I'd love to ride a train to work. Play on my steam deck on the way home and not have to worry about getting stuck in traffic for hours. Visiting Washington DC and riding the metro everywhere ruined me, now I look at a five lane at road and say "This is bullshit!".

    catch22 ,
    @catch22@programming.dev avatar

    I call bs, a motorcycle provides way less protection. And which states are they illegal in? Lobbying and another money grab from corporations in our "free market" society. I would love one of these BTW.

    Blaster_M ,

    Motorcycles have different licensing requirements, and come with caveat emptor that they are inherently unsafe in a motor vehicle accident.

    That's not to say bikes don't have any safety at all... there is R&D that goes into making them safe in a collision... as safe as they can be.

    lightnsfw ,

    Why can't we just accept that the KEI is less safe then?

    Blaster_M ,

    Anyone who buys a Kei car already knows this just by looking at it.

    nickwitha_k ,

    That's not to say bikes don't have any safety at all... there is R&D that goes into making them safe in a collision... as safe as they can be.

    Yup. I survived a high-side collision after being sideswiped by an SUV. Thanks to modern safety gear, I only had minor injuries with little long-term beyond an ankle to lets me sense slight changes in atmospheric pressure.

    Wahots ,
    @Wahots@pawb.social avatar

    I'm always shocked by this. In a world with seatbelt laws, crumple zones, backup cameras, pinch protection, etc we allow people to ride motorcycles that consistently get injured or killed. How they haven't gotten banned or stupidly restricted is beyond me. Even with a motorcycle lane, getting in a wreck at 75mph would be seriously bad.

    In my state, I'm pretty sure you can ride a motorcycle legally with a helmet and a tshirt on, but get pulled over and fined for not wearing a seatbelt, lol.

    atrielienz , (edited )

    The seat belt is to prevent you from being thrown through the glass and body/frame of the vehicle. Because that's generally what kills unseatbelted people in a wreck. A motorcyclist will be thrown from their vehicle if hit but is much less likely to hit that vehicle at 70mph. That's why you dress for the slide so to speak. It's about how you land as much as anything. And when you're inside a vehicle and being tossed around you are basically a reverse pinata.

    https://youtube.com/shorts/6nnc4-DjnUg?si=rauxW1b6LQOmhuho

    atrielienz ,

    Thank god someone said it. This comment makes the most sense of any of the comments I've read so far.

    Snapz ,

    What is the too small for road safety thing? That's pure bullshit, right? Smart cars are legal, how can these not be?

    Give us cheap EVs and small trucks god damnit!!!

    Simulation6 ,

    Sounds like some lack basic safety equipment like seat-belts.

    jonne ,

    I guess it's just the lack of any crumple zone, similar to the VW van your legs are essentially the crumple zone.

    Blackmist ,

    Yeah, I'd imagine it's fine down gridlocked Tokyo streets where you might be doing 20mph.

    Probably not so good in a 70mph highway collision though.

    atocci ,

    IIRC, these things exist to exploit a legal loophole around vehicle registration in Japan as well. Safety is not the highest concern lol

    Drivebyhaiku ,

    It might be more about what vehicles share the road. SUVs and pickups tend to cause the majority of fatalities in crashes because their bumper height basically being non compatible with cars and vans and their larger blindspots... That design might not play particularly well with the Keis in crash situations.

    But that being said SUVs and raised pickups are menaces to road safety across the board and we should be looking at phasing them out.

    GamingChairModel ,

    They don't pass US federal crash tests, probably because of the lack of crumple zone, so they can't be imported until they're 25 years old. Which doesn't make them any safer, but I guess rules are rules:

    Because the trucks don’t meet Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards, they’re legal to import only 25 years after having been manufactured. Then, it’s up to each state to decide whether to allow them on public roads.

    zgasma ,
    @zgasma@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

    I have one. No crumple zone. No airbags. Slow acceleration. Can't reach highway speeds. No headrest.

    But it's my favorite car ever. I just treat it like I'm riding a motorcycle. I'm dead in an accident, so I try to be hyper-aware.

    DudeImMacGyver ,

    Uh oh, better ban them!

    nexussapphire , (edited )

    I think someone who tried to do that might just disappear in this day and age. Don't ask gen-z, we won't know.

    madkins ,

    My state did, otherwise I'd be driving one right now. A friend with a Subaru Sambar is being told hers should not have been allowed to be registered and is trying to fight it.

    Fades , (edited )

    woulda been nice to know which state

    for anyone else:

    Map: https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/kei-truck-legal-states

    No recorded law: 28

    Legal: 19

    Illegal: 2

    https://keitruckconnect.com/us-states-you-can-drive-kei-trucks/

    State-Specific Legality of Kei Trucks: The permissibility of these compact, fuel-efficient vehicles varies across the U.S., largely due to differing safety and environmental standards.

    Are Kei Trucks Legal in California? In the Golden State, Kei trucks can be driven on local roads, but not on freeways. This is due to the fact that many of these vehicles are not equipped with EPA-compliant engines for highway use. However, there are no restrictions on their use for off-road activities. Their off-road capabilities make them a popular choice for those in need of a compact work or recreational vehicle.

    Are Kei Trucks Legal in Texas? In the Lone Star State, the situation is a bit different. Kei trucks are not street-legal due to the state’s stringent safety standards for passenger vehicles. These trucks often lack standard safety features such as airbags and seatbelts, which can make them less safe in an accident. However, there are exceptions to this rule. If the mini truck is used for agricultural purposes or has been modified to meet the state’s safety standards, it may be allowed on public roads. In these cases, the necessary permits and inspections are required.
    Laws Governing Kei Trucks in other States. The permissibility of Kei trucks varies greatly across the U.S. For instance, in Alabama, you can use mini trucks on any public roads except interstate highways. The speed limit for these vehicles is 25 mph.

    Florida allows registered mini trucks to operate only on streets with a posted speed limit of 35 mph or less. In Louisiana, you can use mini trucks freely with a speed limit under 55 mph. North Carolina allows mini trucks to be licensed and used on all NC roads.

    In Washington, mini trucks are street legal. Wyoming permits mini trucks on any roads except for interstate highways. It’s important to note that none of the 50 states allow mini trucks on interstate highways. This is due to safety reasons and the fact that most Kei trucks can only reach a maximum speed of 65 mph, which is lower than the speed limit on interstates.

    Fades ,

    Way ahead of ya!

    Map: https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/kei-truck-legal-states

    No recorded law: 28

    Legal: 19

    Illegal: 2

    https://keitruckconnect.com/us-states-you-can-drive-kei-trucks/

    State-Specific Legality of Kei Trucks: The permissibility of these compact, fuel-efficient vehicles varies across the U.S., largely due to differing safety and environmental standards.

    Are Kei Trucks Legal in California? In the Golden State, Kei trucks can be driven on local roads, but not on freeways. This is due to the fact that many of these vehicles are not equipped with EPA-compliant engines for highway use. However, there are no restrictions on their use for off-road activities. Their off-road capabilities make them a popular choice for those in need of a compact work or recreational vehicle.

    Are Kei Trucks Legal in Texas? In the Lone Star State, the situation is a bit different. Kei trucks are not street-legal due to the state’s stringent safety standards for passenger vehicles. These trucks often lack standard safety features such as airbags and seatbelts, which can make them less safe in an accident. However, there are exceptions to this rule. If the mini truck is used for agricultural purposes or has been modified to meet the state’s safety standards, it may be allowed on public roads. In these cases, the necessary permits and inspections are required.
    Laws Governing Kei Trucks in other States. The permissibility of Kei trucks varies greatly across the U.S. For instance, in Alabama, you can use mini trucks on any public roads except interstate highways. The speed limit for these vehicles is 25 mph.

    Florida allows registered mini trucks to operate only on streets with a posted speed limit of 35 mph or less. In Louisiana, you can use mini trucks freely with a speed limit under 55 mph. North Carolina allows mini trucks to be licensed and used on all NC roads.

    In Washington, mini trucks are street legal. Wyoming permits mini trucks on any roads except for interstate highways. It’s important to note that none of the 50 states allow mini trucks on interstate highways. This is due to safety reasons and the fact that most Kei trucks can only reach a maximum speed of 65 mph, which is lower than the speed limit on interstates.

    Evil_Shrubbery ,

    smaller, cheaper

    Just say better.

    They are better vehicles and the ad campaigns for 'bigger, more expensive' vehicles are finally hitting their stupid wall.

    Now lets do SUVs next.

    RamblingPanda ,

    Besides taking way less space on the road or while parking, you'll only have to lift your stuff half the way up to the RAM or something like it. I personally like not breaking my back.

    maxso216 ,
    @maxso216@ani.social avatar

    https://ani.social/pictrs/image/9ccd6cb7-eed7-4b3b-a86d-61db8bff65d0.webp

    Used commonly in railway maintenance in Japan! This budget friendly truck is favoured by JR which want to cut budget on everything.

    You999 ,

    Any idea what that MOW truck is for? The second cab in the rear is really throwing me off.

    maxso216 , (edited )
    @maxso216@ani.social avatar

    https://ani.social/pictrs/image/877f756e-bafe-40d4-b650-5fe05aef2d97.webp

    For towing ?

    You999 ,

    If it was just for towing it wouldnt have a cab in the rear like that.

    thejoker954 ,

    The 2nd cab is just so they can drive forward in either direction on the rail.

    ikidd ,
    @ikidd@lemmy.world avatar

    That's nowhere in the same size class as OPs. It's just the same style with a cab-forward design. It's probably a 3-ton.

    maxso216 ,
    @maxso216@ani.social avatar

    https://ani.social/pictrs/image/091062dd-336d-4126-ba3b-b7b99f612eb9.webp

    How about this?

    ikidd ,
    @ikidd@lemmy.world avatar

    That's the same model. Its a much heavier duty truck than these little flitter trucks referred to in the OP.

    I'm not sure what you're not understanding here.

    maxso216 ,
    @maxso216@ani.social avatar

    https://ani.social/pictrs/image/4e2dd021-6ca7-4f69-ac2b-0873f7b5ed37.webp

    https://ani.social/pictrs/image/fb94ef33-4185-4536-b684-13ea0721d909.webp

    Should be correct now? Not really good at identifying car.

    ikidd ,
    @ikidd@lemmy.world avatar

    That's more like it.

    mechoman444 ,

    So people are tired of paying 60 to 90k for an f150 or a Dodge ram? You don't say!

    TheReturnOfPEB ,

    How long until these are banned ?

    Jollyllama ,

    Already are banned in a few states, relegated to being registered as off road vehicles only.

    TheReturnOfPEB ,

    I saw in the article that they are legal in 19 states. I did not see the off road vehicle bit. Interesting, and thanks.

    phoenixz ,

    We are the party of free market capitalism! We won't allow rules to stop us from polluting the shit out of everything, we won't allow rules that will make the world better! We only allow rules that block the competitors of our biggest bribers

    ShaggySnacks ,

    Free market for me, not for thee.

    intensely_human ,

    This is it basically. People think free markets are bad for humanity, but all the problems are for when people just reach out and stop the free market from happening.

    That’s government’s job: maintain an actually free market, where new people can come in and give people what they want, when the existing guys fail to do so.

    It takes active input of energy to maintain that state of affairs. There will always be people who want to take control of it in unfair ways and get profit without providing the best value to the people, and it’s in our collective best interests to stop those people. So it’s legit to
    spend taxes on things like breaking up monopolies or maintaining infrastructure.

    Free market doesn’t mean it happens naturally. It used to happen more naturally, because the total amount of power a person could wield over others was limited. But ever since we’ve had armies and ultra wealthy families and huge companies, all of which can exert power over individuals, a free market is a thing which requires government enforcement to maintain.

    I think our problem might be that our government isn’t financially dominant. It is militarily dominant, and so it’s able to
    maintain the relative safety that comes from
    having a monopoly on violence. But the government doesn’t have a monopoly on financial power and so it can be overpowered by money.

    Crikeste ,

    Regardless of bans, I’ve heard these cars are INCREDIBLY hard to import. Not only is getting permits for them difficult, but many places selling them domestically have gone around the laws regarding them, resulting in people’s Kei trucks being taken by the government and shipped back to Japan on their dime.

    It’s not an easy thing to get into.

    Uncaged_Jay ,

    It's already happening in some states

    ColeSloth ,

    Here's where they're legal, and exactly how legal they are in the US

    Many of the "legal" states aren't all that legal, really.

    Wrench ,

    I'd honestly love one of these, depending in if it's powerful enough to haul a decently heavy load up a hill.

    I woodwork as a hobby, and have been wanting an old truck for a while, but the used truck market is pretty insane right now. All I want is an old beater with a reliable engine and a standard sized bed that's capable of hauling sheet goods (4ft wide) without hassle.

    This would check those marks. If the price was right, I'd happily drive this little guy around.

    Instead, the market is full of ridiculously sized pickups with tiny truck beds because either the cab is huge, or they waste so much space making the truck look "tough" that the beds shrink narrower than 4ft.

    As long as I can get a small truck in a V6 so that I don't stall out hauling something heavy like cement bags, I'm in.

    bitchkat ,

    A guy in a common group as me owns https://luckysminitrucks.com

    lemmyvore ,

    Most kei trucks have 3 cylinders. A few have 4. Here's a starting point.. Here's another.

    invertedspear ,

    Look into Telo trucks. Modern, electric, safe, small. I know they haven’t launched yet, but i have high hopes they get everyone rethinking their pickup choices.

    the_third ,

    People around here usually have trailers behind their normal cars for that. Works fine.

    Wrench ,

    Yeah, I've considered that too. Neither of us have a car with a hitch, and we don't have a good place to store a trailer for extended periods of time, but it's an option I'm considering for sure.

    Johnny5 ,

    U-Haul trailer when you need it?

    Wrench ,

    Essentially what I've been doing. HD rental truck. But truck availability and requiring multiple round trips to return and pick up my car means I put it off until I'm blocked, and then needlessly stock up on sheet goods that I might need in the future, but ultimately sit around for a year or two before I use them.

    But yeah, this is what I'm doing while I bide my time for truck prices to drop. And I've push back a bunch of projects that rely on ply because I just don't want to deal with the hassle.

    To your point, I bet the trailers are probably more readily available. The trucks themselves are very hit or miss in my experience. But there always seems to be trailers in the lot.

    nyan ,

    At that point, you might as well just rent a pickup.

    Usernameblankface ,
    @Usernameblankface@lemmy.world avatar

    If you are in the US, look into minivans, or cargo vans. They are not popular here, so you're not paying the pretty tax on them, and most vans with the rear seats removed can easily fit 4x8 plywood in the back. A beater van with a strong engine should be a lot cheaper than a beater pickup truck.

    Wrench ,

    Yeah, I used to borrow my parents van on occasion, but they got a newer model of the same van (Odyssey) that could no longer fit sheet goods.

    Also was pretty awkward tying the trunk door on the occasions where I needed longer material, which I would be doing more of nowadays. And TBH, despite my best efforts to pad things and load materials gently, I did scrap up the interior a bit, which wouldn't be a factor with a truck.

    A work van might do, though. Those seem pretty huge.

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