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simplex.chat

BastingChemina , to Privacy in Why don't people here love SimpleXChat more?

I liked the fact that it is really easy to self-host.

I tried it with friends on discord and in 10min I had a vps with a server running.

delirious_owl , (edited ) to Privacy in Why don't people here love SimpleXChat more?
@delirious_owl@discuss.online avatar

Are chats synced with the mobile and desktop clients?

DieserTypMatthias , to Privacy in Why don't people here love SimpleXChat more?
@DieserTypMatthias@lemmy.ml avatar

Never tried it. But I use Element, which is based on the Matrix protocol.

jack ,

With SimpleX each server is replacable/fungible

LemmyHead ,

Isn't matrix encryption beta? I remembered element always warns about that

DieserTypMatthias ,
@DieserTypMatthias@lemmy.ml avatar

I don't think so.

PanoramicAddict , to Privacy in Why don't people here love SimpleXChat more?

After Signal dropped SMS support, most of my friends jumped ship. No way they're using this.

pineapplelover , to Privacy in Why don't people here love SimpleXChat more?

My friends barely want to use Signal. There's no chance they're using something else.

shrugal , (edited ) to Privacy in Why don't people here love SimpleXChat more?
@shrugal@lemm.ee avatar

What does their multi-device story look like? Can I use one identity/account on multiple devices, with synced read state etc?

Edit: Looks like it's being worked on. I don't want to use a messenger without this feature anymore, but I'll give SimpleX another look once it's done.

uzi , to Privacy in Why don't people here love SimpleXChat more?

In F-Droid, after disabling all anti-features, SimpleX still is listed. Signal never will be due to connecting to GCM or Firebase. Molly is an improvement for Signal but not for untrackable privacy like SimpleX from using a different ID with each individual SimpleX contact.

malean ,
@malean@lemmy.world avatar

I hoped Molly leaved the sms feature, that is the only thing I can use as a bait for let my friends switch to signal.

uzi ,

No, because SMS code was removed from Signal, I believe Molly would have to fork the code if they try to put it back in.

adespoton ,

Not to mention, SMS was removed because it’s inherently insecure at every level. Keeping it would mean there’d be an insecure side channel into the protocol. While it’s a useful onboarding mechanism, it can also be abused — and was. So eventually it got removed to prefer privacy and security over convenience.

uzi ,

That's a valid reason, prioritizing security over convenience. I forgot about the fact that texting is plain text communication.

IuseArchbtw , to Privacy in Why don't people here love SimpleXChat more?

I'd definitely use it if my friends were using it. Sadly, I can't even get them to use signal.

fluckx ,

Same.... Sigh...

I don't need people to be hyper-privacy minded.
But just a little bit at least. I'm not expecting everybody to self host a matrix server and use element and run self hosted services on their own RPI.

But just not pick one of the worst ones?

LazaroFilm ,
@LazaroFilm@lemmy.world avatar

Find better friends.
I say that but my friends decided to leave Facebook Messenger group chat… for Instagram. Now they use both.

nosnahc , to Privacy in Why don't people here love SimpleXChat more?
@nosnahc@lemmy.world avatar

Because Signal is great.

jack ,

It's really not. Requires phone number and is centralized

merde , (edited )
@merde@sh.itjust.works avatar

i don't know in what world you're living, but in this world where people think you're (edit: we are) a pain in the ass for refusing to install WhatsApp when everyone is expected to use it for official communication (work + organizations); Signal is great.

I've convinced a couple of dozens of people to use Signal, and only one to keep Simplex as, at least, a backup.

as a caring-about-privacy minority we can invite "them" to Signal. "They" know Signal and Telegram👎. "They" understand our concerns. "They" for whatever incomprehensible reason keep using WhatsApp 🤷 We're left out of the loop because once "everyone" is on that WhatsApp group, it's tiring for them to send an email or an sms to the exceptional one or two people

jack ,

What are you talking about? Your comment isn't relevant at all. Next time read more carefully

merde , (edited )
@merde@sh.itjust.works avatar

it is relevant.

requiring phone number and being centralized doesn't make Signal "not great" in a world where a great majority of people use WhatsApp + read the last comment again but more carefully ;)

signal is a great alternative to a WhatsApp world. Simplex or Session has no chance with the general public

jack ,

Oh youre right I was completely wrong

merde ,
@merde@sh.itjust.works avatar

my bad, i should have worded it clearer :/

went up and edited it

aldalire , to Privacy in Why don't people here love SimpleXChat more?

Session messenger allows you to chat without linking a phone number to your account. It’s what drug dealers use lol.

Gooey0210 ,

Same for simplex 🫠

EngineerGaming ,
@EngineerGaming@feddit.nl avatar

What really bothers me about Session is that you effectively cannot selfhost - hosting a node is prohibitively expensive. So seems like the only people who can realistically host a node are crypto bros, big companies and government agencies. Thanks, I would rather stick with IRC/XMPP/Matrix.

aldalire ,

Fair

Samsy , to Privacy in Why don't people here love SimpleXChat more?

I would use it, if there were unified push support.

Churbleyimyam ,

Jami has that.

possiblylinux127 ,
@possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip avatar

Jami is a bloated insecure mess. It is getting better but I would not use it

Churbleyimyam ,

How so? First time I've heard this.

jack ,

Jami is broken

Samsy ,

Also Molly and Mercurygram and most of the Matrix messengers

delirious_owl ,
@delirious_owl@discuss.online avatar

What is that and why does it matter?

telep ,

unified push works as a stand in for gms on devices without it. it runs in the background & receive the wakeup pings for the apps (in this case simplex) so you only need one websocket open instead of a different background service for each app. hugely reduces battery use.

delirious_owl ,
@delirious_owl@discuss.online avatar

Does that work without google services? I thought this was why signal said they wouldn't remove gapps depends, and all privacy apps do pull instead of push?

EngineerGaming ,
@EngineerGaming@feddit.nl avatar

AFAIK yes, it's the whole point.

Charger8232 , to Privacy in Why don't people here love SimpleXChat more?

I've been a fan of SimpleX for a while now. Privacy comes at the cost of convenience, and SimpleX is the most private messaging platform according to this spreadsheet.

SolarPunker OP ,

Thanks for this report.

lemmyreader ,

Beware https://privacyspreadsheet.com/messaging-apps uses Google fonts. So much for privacy.

Kindness ,

No Jami? Absurd.

Churbleyimyam ,

Jami really needs to get talked about more. I think it's great.

possiblylinux127 ,
@possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip avatar

Jami hasn't had a security audit

jack ,

Doesn't work, never will. Partly because both have ro be online to chaz

poVoq , to Privacy in Why don't people here love SimpleXChat more?
@poVoq@slrpnk.net avatar

SimpleX Chat Ltd is a seed stage startup with a lot of user growth in 2022-2023, and a lot of exciting technical and product problems to solve to grow faster.

Run by a VC funded for-profit company. That really should tell you all you need to know. Sorry, but no thanks.

FarraigePlaisteach ,
@FarraigePlaisteach@kbin.social avatar

Upvoted bc VC eventually means enshittifiication. But with xz getting back-doored recently, what is the middle ground that keeps these things sustainable financially and operationally?

Kidplayer_666 ,

Maybe it’ll be governments partially funding it. If Schleswig-Holstein’s attempt is anything to go by, it might be a way

FarraigePlaisteach ,
@FarraigePlaisteach@kbin.social avatar

But do we trust entities that depend on our governments for funding? It could be argued that they’re fundamentally compromised.

taladar ,

As opposed to whom? Are investors in VC startups less compromised or more? What are the incentives in either case? Who do you trust to be competent and/or incompetent enough to compromise it without you noticing it? Who is likely to change a project that was well intentioned first after the fact? In what ways?

FarraigePlaisteach ,
@FarraigePlaisteach@kbin.social avatar

Exactly.

Gooey0210 ,

Many question marks, one answer- Gitea

Kidplayer_666 ,

You have 4 basic options for funding:

-you rely on individual donations which doesn’t bring in enough money

-you force people to pay for it, which makes it less attractive when compared to traditional software, and makes much of the community pissy

-you rely on corporate money

-you rely on government money

None is perfect, but some amount of government funding (let’s say, 10% of what they would pay Microsoft for the equivalent software) might make sense

timbuck2themoon ,

People paying for what they use. It's that simple.

FarraigePlaisteach ,
@FarraigePlaisteach@kbin.social avatar

I wonder what that looks like fleshed out a little, though. Is that a mandatory or voluntary payment? And by paying for what they use is that per message or per month like a subscription?

timbuck2themoon ,

Mandatory? And per month or year. Younger people might not remember but WhatsApp was $1/year (at least in the states.)

There shouldn't be anything wrong with expecting payment to pay for servers, etc. If it's free then you're the product right?

nebula224 ,
@nebula224@mastodon.social avatar

@timbuck2themoon @FarraigePlaisteach or self hosted :thinkerguns:

timbuck2themoon ,

I do this but sadly not viable for everyone. It is a great option though.

FarraigePlaisteach ,
@FarraigePlaisteach@kbin.social avatar

Threema.ch already do this. Maybe that’s the answer?

timbuck2themoon ,

Maybe. That is a one time payment but i guess they make their money on businesses. I like it but it's not the slickest app yet.

Gooey0210 ,

Secure and private by design is the solution

Nobody can compromise you if they can't

aldalire ,

I did not know it was run by a VC funded company. Isn’t it open source and audited though? https://simplex.chat/blog/20221108-simplex-chat-v4.2-security-audit-new-website.html

Either way, if one needs to communicate without the use of identifiers like a phone number (afaik signal requires one) I trust Session. SimpleX features cool new tech but let’s wait until it matures

tooLikeTheNope ,

AFAIK it is audited, and its threat model is rather extreme, like there is no unequivocally binding id, you can give every contact a different id

They talk about for profit/no profit in their last blog entry
https://simplex.chat/blog/20240323-simplex-network-privacy-non-profit-v5-6-quantum-resistant-e2e-encryption-simple-migration.html

electric_nan ,

Thanks, I just uninstalled it lol.

Scolding0513 ,

this is a wrong take for a few reasons, if we're talking about trust.

Also, Signal literally was taking money from the CIA for a decade and also is based in the US anyway, and no one hardly said a word 🤣🤣 "Privacy" activists are a joke lmao. Also signal made a crypto coin and took away features like SMS, but of course they get a free pass for that too. Makes you wonder.

  1. SimpleX is fully open source, verifiable, and audited. If there are changes that are bad, the community will talk about them, and at worst it can be forked

  2. SimpleX has made it clear that they dont want you to trust them. It's decentralised and anyone can run their own relay, and the servers are designed prevent correlation. They also make it very easy to use TOR and multiple circuits. This is contrary to the inferior Signal model where you just have to trust that the centralized Signal org isnt leaking your phone and IP to the feds.

moving towards a decentralised, open, and trustless world is better for everyone. In this kind of system, I really dont give a damn where they are getting their money from, as long as they arent putting crap in the software, and if they do, we will all know about it. But so far they have shown that they are committed to extreme security and privacy, and they obviously arent trying to appeal to normies, so i doubt they would ever even try to put VC-pushed garbage in.

If you want a good app, you will need funding from somewhere. Look at apps like Session that arent funded well. They suck. So I'd rather SimpleX be funded by a VC instead of by the feds like Signal, as long as everything stays open, free, trustless, and decentralised

Time to get downvoted! See you guys at -50 😁

SolarPunker OP ,

Exactly what I thought; if the technology is so decentralized does it make sense to care so much about who finances the project?
Like if one instance of lemmy was funded by Microsoft, we could easily use another one and block it, right?

Scolding0513 ,

yeah it's like TOR. it's public knowledge that it was both made and is funded by the US Gov, but we all see it as the standard of anonymity online because everything is open, trustless, and decentralized.

loudWaterEnjoyer ,
@loudWaterEnjoyer@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

How is TOR trustless?

Scolding0513 ,

I recommend to study how TOR works

loudWaterEnjoyer ,
@loudWaterEnjoyer@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

I did. Can you maybe answer the question?

poVoq ,
@poVoq@slrpnk.net avatar

Where did I even mention Signal? Total strawman argument, as I don't think Signal is a good option either.

But you go ahead and trust Simplex Chat Ltd. I guess some people only learn from their own mistakes 🤷‍♂️

Scolding0513 ,

you completely ignored what i said, as I specifically argued that simplex is made to be used without trust. so dont talk about me trusting people lol.

Also I agree with you on Signal, was just throwing it out there for others, not necessarily for you.

poVoq ,
@poVoq@slrpnk.net avatar

You walked right into my deliberate rethorical trap 😅

There is no such thing as trustless computing, and anyone that tries to sell you that is scamming you or drank the same kool-aid.

uzi ,

I'm in full agreement with you. Not even a little bit of disagreement.

aldalire ,

This comment right here is the sanest in this thread

InternetCitizen2 ,

Would you say Tor is bad because its from the US navy?

Scolding0513 ,

originally it was. but it was given to the larger community as an open project, because they realized that without public use, it would be useless.

There is endless discussion on whether tor software is backdoored or not, but I severely doubt this with all the eyes on the open source code

There is also debate on how many nodes are owned by the feds, but the largest estimates at the peak were about 20%ish iirc. i doubt it's a significant number enough to worry about, from what I've seen.

tldr I'd recommend to look up all the opinions online yourself.

LemmyHead , (edited )

Why should that be an issue? It's fully open source

poVoq ,
@poVoq@slrpnk.net avatar

Oh, my sweet sweet summer child... I have bad news for you 😆

krash , to Privacy in Why don't people here love SimpleXChat more?

If I want a simple chat protocol, I use IRC or XMPP. These are battle proven by time.
If I want a really secure protocol, I use Signal or Matrix. These are endored by many security experts who their shit when they assess protocols, crypto and solutions.

SimpleX may be a good alternative for anonymous communication, but there is plenty options out there. Considering how many startups are funded by cheap VC money, and the business model is always "provide something awesome, and once you have enough traction - enshittify it" makes me very weary of investing myself in new solutions no matter how open-source the are.

I may sound bitter and skeptic, but I've seen this pattern has been repeated many times over.

Scolding0513 ,

Signal was funded by the CIA for a decade

adespoton ,

So? Tor is in a similar boat.

Government agencies need secure crypto to hide their activities, and it doesn’t work if they’re the only ones using the technology.

bitfucker ,

I think his point is that funding doesn't equate to it being shit

fuckwit_mcbumcrumble , to Privacy in Why don't people here love SimpleXChat more?

"Hang on let me write down my QR code"

Usernames exist for a reason, especially in chat apps. Not having usernames is only going to severely limit your target demographic. And if nobody uses your app does it's benefits even matter?

possiblylinux127 ,
@possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip avatar

You just scan QR codes. It is not that complicated

56_ ,
@56_@lemmy.ml avatar

It can be pretty complicated without a phone. Especially if your computer doesn't have a webcam.

merde ,
@merde@sh.itjust.works avatar

you don't need a camera, you can load the qrCode image (after sending it through Signal 🤭

PropaGandalf ,
@PropaGandalf@lemmy.world avatar

just send them the link

ThinkingThings ,
@ThinkingThings@lemmy.ca avatar

Thereby surrendering your anonymity and negating any reason to use the app over mainstream alternatives.

EngineerGaming ,
@EngineerGaming@feddit.nl avatar

AFAIK it also gives you a link in text form.

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