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rule

FAQ

Q: why not organize and stop treating the bus as a legitimate entity? why aren’t you working to stop the bus?

A: do both. cut the fuel line. break windows. put oatmeal in the gas tank. but maybe your efforts don’t succeed this election cycle. and if so don’t fucking throw away your vote if it can help your neighbors fucking survive. “harm reduction” is not a political strategy for action. it is a last minute, end of the line decision to save lives, after all other resources have been exhausted.

kiljoy ,

I tried in 2016 and 2020 and the dems told me to pound sand. I’m not going to be the one getting fucked by trump. Fuck around and find out.

alekwithak ,

"I'm not on the bus so let it crash"

kiljoy ,

Eh, it’s more of I tried to right the bus but everyone fought against me so let it crash.

Krauerking ,

Yeah I'm tired of people saying the better leader is the one who keeps pretending to drive off the road and might get back on track and away from the cliff if they get enough money and then fucking taking a shit ton of money from one person who tells them to drive closer to the cliff cause they find it fun when everyone else panics cause it lets them steal everyone's wallet.

We keep accepting garbage because "it's better than nothing" and then be happy cause only a few more million people are slipping into suffering rather than them. Status quo liberals are a shit stain on the Democratic party but the remains of the upper middle class still think it's neat.

daltotron ,

Buses tend to have an emergency stop that you're supposed to hit in the event that the driver has like, a heart attack, or something, right?

spujb OP ,

not in my experience? you may be thinking of trains

daltotron ,

I thought I remembered pretty definitively during elementary school that there was like, a big red button next to the bus driver, that the kids were supposed to hit in an emergency, while you were supposed to also steer the bus and keep from crashing in the meantime. I could be wrong, though, or that could not be the case on public buses or buses of other types, I dunno.

Also, the buses did infamously have emergency exit doors, so you could always just open the emergency door in the back of the bus and jump out. That's probably the other best option, relative to going over a cliff. Road rash can be pretty severe and bad, and you could get a concussion or snap your neck if you don't know how to do the jump out sideways rolly thing. I dunno though, seems like you could do it probably.

pkill ,

or maybe, yk, hijack the bus to stop it because it is headed towards a cliff anyway, just the question is how fast it'll get there. This is what a revolution means.

spujb OP ,

see the FAQ in the post text

pkill ,

do you know how Mussolini, Salazar, Armas, Horthy, Pinochet or Franco came to power? And was the Silver Legion or KKK elected by anyone? Y'all will point out to Nazi Germany to justify participating in the legitimization of this evil plutocracy every few years, but if they are determined, they will try to take power no matter what and Jan 6 was just a proof (also NSDAP might have not won the March 5 elections if it wasn't for the terrorist tactics of staging the Reichstag fire and lastly, Proud Boys or any other fringe group is still nothing compared to SA/SS).

pkill ,

also under capitalism you buy power anyway and one person=one vote is a laughable myth already anyway. the real question is whom will the bourgeoisie support.

spujb OP ,

i’m not following your logic at all i apologize :/

hex_m_hell , (edited )
@hex_m_hell@slrpnk.net avatar

Liberalism is driving off a cliff and killing everyone because a third of people voted to do it.

There are 9 people on the bus. Five people vote to get shit burgers even though no one wants that, just because they think it will save them from the 3 people who vote to drive off the cliff. One person obstains. Two of the three people hijack the bus and drive off the cliff. Four of the five people blame the person who obstained as they drive off the cliff.

Fascists don't care if they win or lose. Voting can't save you once you've reached this point. You don't have slightly high blood pressure that you can treat by eating right. You have cancer. You fight the cancer with everything you have or you die.

hrosts ,

Fascists do care about winning, that is why they pump so much money into being elected, as elections are one of the most frictionless paths to power. That's why they change the rules to make themselves more likely to be elected. That's why they try to disenfranchise people who would vote against them. A coup is a risky thing, which is why they take all paths to power which are available.

You fight the cancer with everything you have or you die.

The problem is, you don't have much. There isn't a robust labor movement in the US which could provide a front against fascism. Any small scale or individual struggle might help you personally and save lives, but it's not gonna stop the bus. At most it's gonna pull some of the people from it before it drives of the cliff.

If you want to fight the guys who're about to hijack the bus, you need time. As much time as possible to amass the response. Voting for shit burgers is just what gives you that sliver of it. This is the thing you keep doing to be able to keep going, not the saving grace.

hex_m_hell , (edited )
@hex_m_hell@slrpnk.net avatar

Fascists want to win because it means there will be less resistence from liberals, not because they will abide by the law. That's a pretty important distinction that I don't think liberals can integrate right now.

A successful coup is indistinguishable from a legal election, which is why they create as much chaos as possible and sew distrust before elections.

I'm not saying voting is completely useless but I am saying that you are deluded if you think voting will save you. It might not even buy you more time. Organize now. Figure out how you're going to eat while you're fighting. Download army manuals and start reading them. Start talking to other people about what to do when Trump takes power (acknowledging that he will claim power reguarless if he wins or loses the election).

A coup is less likely to be successful if you promise to revolt no matter how a fascist takes power. They rely on tricking enough people in to cooperating. If enough people will riot, some of the ghouls who back the fascist will back off and you lower their chances of success.

You don't have time. Sure, vote anyway because it's a low effort thing that might buy you time. It's basically a free lottery ticket. You probably aren't going to win, but it will be really great if you do and it's super low effort. But you wouldn't take out a loan assuming that ticket will pay off. Act like voting won't actually buy you time, because it probably won't.

At most it's gonna pull some of the people from it before it drives of the cliff.

Vote for shit burgers or don't. The time to build a movement was 4 years ago before liberals decided to go back to brunch. The thing is that fascism requires the complicity of liberals. A very small group of people could beat the driver to death, take the keys, and park the bus. Liberals will work with fascists to resist those people because they think they'll get the keys back later and get ice cream. Liberals can't accept that there is no ice cream and there never was.

Maggoty ,

Problem. Harm reduction voting requires at least one good faith candidate.

Right now we have choice between the scenic route to go off the cliff and the express route. Electoral boycotts are effective once they reach critical mass. Telling everyone they need to vote harm reduction without a good faith candidate is just suppressing the natural tendency of a democracy to flush a bad set of leaders.

We could also use a general strike but they'll just order us back to work and call it a union victory.

JasonDJ ,

What the fuck are you on about? You take the fucking scenic path! At least that buys you some time and maybe you’ll crash into a tree along the way and manage to have a few survivors.

There’s no brakes on the trump train. The rails are headed right towards the cliff, it’s downhill, and somebody lubed them up with McDoubles (the rails and the conductor).

pkill ,

Scenic path will put you asleep instead of eliciting you fight or flight response. Ditch any faith in this corpse of a system ffs.

hrosts ,

You are literally saying "let fascism come, I'm ready".

Not everyone is. Your personal fight means nothing against the most powerful state in the world. You need a popular movement to just have a chance. Otherwise it's just part suicidal doomerism part larp.

pkill ,

then get organized. Check out Revolutionary Communists of America, they might have a chapter in your city already. An individual can do nothing, but a collective can do everything.

hrosts ,

Jokes on you, I'm not from America. I'm one of those people who will suffer from its fall to fascism, living on the imperial periphery.

pkill ,

oh. they are a part of IMT. Besides what's on the map, a Bolivian and Belarusian sections are being formed.

Maggoty ,

The problem is, that's been my entire life. And now I've seen the "less harmful" side actively stop people who would help from getting elected. Even to funding the "more harmful" side.

At some point you have to stop. Why can't I vote to just hit the brakes?

JasonDJ , (edited )

You’re one of the four people who didn’t vote for ice cream or driving off a cliff. Instead you decided to write-in frozen yogurt.

The cliff drivers still win, and you still ain’t got no froyo.

It’s cool if ice cream isn’t for you. Thats fine. I think most of us, even if we don’t want ice cream…hell, even if we’re lactose intolerant, would rather go along to the ice cream parlor than to drive off the cliff. Because like it or not, those are the only two realistic options.

Also the harm-reduction strategy really only applies to the top of the ballot. It’s been that way my whole adult life, too. It sucks, but if you want any change, it’s not going to start at the top of the ballot. It’s going to start at the bottom.

There are two main parties at the top of the ballot and they aren’t moving easily. There’s a lot of reasons for that, but at the end of the day, right now, they are the two, and that’s not changing except from the bottom up. From the not-fiercely-challenged races.

Krauerking ,

The scenic path is only good for those enjoying the scenery and not the people still having to use their spit and blood to power and lube the bus.

They won't care how it crashes and stops just that it does. You just aren't ready for it to be over. It doesn't matter what you want though anymore.

It won't matter if want it to keep going just a little bit longer, when it happens it will happen. And people will rejoice for the end of their suffering even if it just starts a new version of it.

Ilflish ,

The four people vote and you still drive off a cliff due to gerrymandering

Liz ,

Some kind of proportional representation would fix that. For a whole pile of reasons, I like Sequential Proportional Approval Voting.

Ilflish ,

Just because you seem interested. Gerrymandering is a larger part of the Modifiable Areal Unit Problem

abracaDavid ,

This entire post is just about keeping things the way they are and never allowing anything meaningful to change.

Also I love that in this analogy that Biden is ice cream. Very genuine post.

spujb OP ,

wrong

Q: why not organize and stop treating the bus as a legitimate entity? why aren’t you working to stop the bus?

A: do both. cut the fuel line. break windows. put oatmeal in the gas tank.

but maybe your efforts don’t succeed this election cycle. and if so don’t fucking throw away your vote if it can help your neighbors fucking survive.

“harm reduction” is not a political strategy for action. it is a last minute, end of the line decision to save lives, after all other resources have been exhausted.

Pan_Ziemniak ,

In the way things are, we are capable of taking direct action. Under dump, itll be much harder when we are a de jure dictatorship with anyone left of reagan criminalized.

abracaDavid ,

I am completely disillusioned by the Democrats. We got out and voted our asses off and won everything for them, and then things get even worse under their power.

I have zero faith in this system. It doesn't work. We have the same problems under Biden that we had under Trump. In fact, you could say things are much worse because we're running a goddamn genocide now.

Pan_Ziemniak ,

  1. Things got objectively better compared to trump. We got student loan forgiveness, an acknowledgement and some minimal climate action along with children being reunited with their parents at the border. And dont @ me with its not enough. Under trump the left will be out right persecuted ala nazi Germany.

  2. The problems are being acknowledged and not exacerbated under biden. Biden is a dinosaur appealing to dinosaurs. The old democrats i work and have worked wouldnt be swayed by anything else. Too bad for them theyre dying just like the rest of the maga boomers. Meanwhile, the youth drifts further left (as evidenced by the younger dems in office). In a decade, the neolibs, in order to stay in power, will have to cater to young neolibs which will be inevitably much more progressive. With the (modern) right in utter decline, if those of us on the far left can finally fucking unite, you can actually get a chance to be the other competitive faction. Right v left in 10-20 is going to look starkly different than it does now.

If we choose donnie dump instead, we get what i said. The biggest boot youve ever seen right up ur ass.

  1. sigh for the 294846th time, we arent the ones "running" the Gazan genocide. We are selling "goods" to a long term ally that we were never going to abandon just bc of moral complaints. Israel was wrong 30 yrs ago just as 70 ago and just as now. But not selling arms means we not only lose soft power on the world stage, but we make our remaining allies, that already mistrust us bc we are fickle, fear our support hinges on which party is in power. Like it or not geopolitics is real, and while it hasnt affected us directly the way it has the people of Gaza bc of our very privileged position, there is an enemy agent running for office. We get him, we will be in danger from him, and all the more the enemies he serves.

And on that note, my family in Poland would very much enjoy not being run over by imperial tanks the way putin has very very repeatedly suggested they, and Ukraine obviously, should be. Gaza is being dangled in front of u to keep u from seeing the bigger threats.

core ,

voting is not harm reduction

CileTheSane ,
@CileTheSane@lemmy.ca avatar

It is when not voting risks harming people

core ,

https://www.indigenousaction.org/voting-is-not-harm-reduction-an-indigenous-perspective/

zbyte64 ,
@zbyte64@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

"I'm punishing the system by not voting" is still working within the system.

core ,

no one said they were punishing the system by not voting

spujb OP ,

This article is such an interesting case given that it somehow has achieved nearing 100% SEO coverage for “voting harm reduction” on all search engines since its publication and my first reading of it in February 2020. I don’t know why that is. While I do appreciate the dedication and values that go into it, unfortunately I find the output of this organization in general to be exceptionally and painfully polemical such that the arguments put forward are incredibly hard to find compelling. I don’t expect anyone to adopt my opinion on this; this is only my personal perspective.

That said, I do want to share this article by an Indigenous legal scholar, Ashley Courchene, which tends to be more balanced in my view: https://policyalternatives.ca/publications/monitor/election-2019-moving-beyond-“-vote-or-not-vote”

core ,

I'll try to finish it this week.

spujb OP ,

i see a lotta people saying that with not a lotta evidence.

voting is not harm reduction

i challenge you to tell that to an LGBT person facing a growing wave of anti transgender bills

voting is not harm reduction

perhaps try arguing that to the women and medical professionals who fear legal action for what used to be standard medical procedure resulting from the overturning of Roe v Wade.

voting is not harm reduction

tell that to Gazans who are undergoing forced starvation with genocidal intent, a process that one of the presidential candidates has vowed to “finish.”

sure, maybe voting isn’t harm reduction. but it seems capable of reducing at least a little bit of harm so…

core ,

harm reduction has a specific meaning. voting for fascist politicians isn't harm reduction whether they are red or blue.

spujb OP ,

so don’t vote for fascist politicians then.

genuinely what is your goal for this conversation? that i tell people it’s in their and their loved ones’ best interest to sit this election out?

i for real don’t get the motive of this talking point except to sow complacency, and complacency has given life to fascism pretty darn effectively in recent history.

core ,

my goal is that you would stop misinforming people about what harm reduction is.

spujb OP ,

okay

zbyte64 , (edited )
@zbyte64@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Have you considered that fascism is a spectrum that starts at colonialism (genocide Joe) and ends at dismantling democracy at home (Trump)? Ask yourself who is served by ignoring this nuance. Hint: it isn't the working class.

core ,

I disagree that the nuance is meaningful, or that ignoring it doesn't serve the working class

zbyte64 ,
@zbyte64@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

That's just like, your opinion, man

sanpedropeddler ,

What if I'm obstaining from voting because my subdivision of the bus will always vote for the cliff instead of the ice cream regardless of what I do

spujb OP ,

two part answer:

  1. the president isn’t the only one being elected; you have opportunities for local representation as well

  2. flipping cities and states from red to blue literally happens sometimes

hope this helps :)

sanpedropeddler ,

I do actually care about other elections, but this post seemed to be specifically about the presidential election.

spujb OP ,

cool! speaking as OP, it’s not specifically about the presidential election; others kind of coopted/assumed such which i get but all of this stuff applies to all voting 😊

Pan_Ziemniak ,

In my primary election this month, we passed a resolution i was very keen on by less than a few hundred votes, by the current count. Theres more on there than dorito mussolini v status quo joe.

RustyShackleford ,
@RustyShackleford@programming.dev avatar

obstaining abstaining

mindbleach ,

And not-voting doesn't mean the bus stays put.

It's going somewhere.

A dilemma doesn't go away just because you don't like the options.

Noodle07 ,

For all the fatalists I'll bring beer so we can watch the world burn together after you've voted

Maggoty ,

Real fatalists pre-gamed.

spujb OP ,

not a fatalist, already plastered. did i do it wrong help

Maggoty ,

Nope. Nothing wrong here.

Semi_Hemi_Demigod ,
@Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world avatar

People need to lower their expectations about what voting is. It's like paying your taxes. It's not fun, you probably won't get what you want, and you have to do it every year. Also, individual votes don't really matter, especially if your candidate loses. And there's a ton of things in the way of getting things done so it's going to take a long time.

LongMember69 , (edited )

My favorite morons ITT:

”Both options are cliffs!”

Yeah because the guy promising to end democracy and bring about Christian nationalism is exactly the same as the moderate we have now. I hope you’re getting paid to be that stupid.

”I won’t vote to support genocide!”

At the end of the day someone becomes president, and spoiler alert the other option is still worse. It’s cute you think your principles are more important than the safety and security of at-risk groups domestically (and frankly abroad as well). Short-sighted and idiotic.

”We might not even get ice cream!”

Okay well organize and protest that after we’ve avoided the cliff.

”Haha Americans are stupid for the entrenched political system that they find themselves in”

Hope you enjoy your five minutes of smugness, because a Christian nationalist USA doesn’t benefit anyone in the world in the long run.

spujb OP ,

a lot of the individuals ITT are here in good faith i believe. i’m more trying to get meaningful change to happen than sow discord by calling them morons.

Pan_Ziemniak ,

You, i like you

c:

Ive gotten righty whities to agree with me on all sorts of wild leftist ideas, its about finding the angle and humanizing the problem.

spujb OP ,

i feel like sometimes people forget the little username in their phone represents a living breathing life that may or may not have had breakfast this morning :(

AWistfulNihilist ,

Ha, I think at least 70% of Internet arguments are caused by hangryness!

spujb OP ,

yes and the other 30% are caused by people being bags of flesh with bones and sickness inside

AWistfulNihilist ,

Fair

Pan_Ziemniak ,

Well.... with the amount of bots confirmed to be out there.... and some of those living breathing lives are out to convince Americans that what they actually want to do is hand Dr. Fascismo the presidency by not voting or protest voting third party.

Asafum ,

A-fuckin-goddamn-men.

You need to communicate with people. Berating them is entirely self serving. No one ever said "you know what? I am a moron, thanks for pointing out my worldview is entirely wrong and I'm an asshole in those exact words."

You can get people to realize they're wrong, but calling them names is exactly the wrong way to do it.

I say "talk to a conservative in conservative language" and they'll understand you. Avoid "trigger" words like redistribution, socialism, LGBT+, etc... use words like "Liberty, freedom of expression, government overreach (when discussing infringement of LGBT+ rights) etc..."

LongMember69 ,

I hear you and I appreciate what you’re trying to do here, though I am skeptical that these people actually are coming here in good faith.

pkill ,

you can do so much more to defeat the reactionaries by visiting:

  • a gym
  • a shooting range
  • a library
  • your local revolutionary organization's meeting

than a polling station

nomous ,

It's so weird to see it framed as an either/or. Voting is the absolute bare minimum you can do to participate. So yeah go vote, and also organize your friends and network with like minded people around you and work towards the change you want. I doubt any of the ideologically pure abstainers here have even ever turned out to vote much less actually worked on a campaign.

pkill ,

Lemme tell you a story. In the last parliamentary election in Poland in October we had a record high turnout of 73% or so. This only emboldened the liberals and the pseudo-left to introduce lower health insurance contributions for the capitalists and tax breaks for IT sector but lift the food VAT cancellation despite some product categories still being affected by an inflation rate of up to 20% and gas and electricity prices freeze.
Which is actually being justified by the "socdem" ruling triumvirate partner instead of them standing against it. But ig for them idpol matters much more than standing for poor people. Then they're fucking surprised they vote for social conservatives. Just like many Trump voters who are not right-wing extremists but just disillusioned proletarians with false consciousness.

Recently state TV invited fucking landlords to discuss how to deal with non-paying tenants to a morning TV. On the contrary, the so hated social conservative PiS government has at least managed to introduce a vacant property tax. Now under the glorious liberal regime we can expect the rent to still gobble up more than a half of a large part of the population's salary. Yay! So progressive, so European, so democratic! 🥰🎉✌️

Women's rights were the hallmark of their campaign, but we still have one of the most barbaric laws regarding abortion and emergency contraception access in Europe due to the centre-right coalition partner torpedoing any change in this respect – hey, how is doing anything about Roe v. Wade being overturned going?

Also militarism. Both of them (Biden and Trump) will waste massive amounts of taxpayer and printed money on producing fucking scrap metal death machines. But Biden is actually more hawkish. In Poland we are already spending 4% of our GDP (twice the NATO target!) on that and in the past few years it increased by like 260%. All of this despite Russia actually virtually not increasing it's military spending and incessant media reports about how they are using 50 year old equipment in Ukraine.

So many people fell totally duped in Poland right now, and rightly so. Now the hope lies in the streets, in the radicalization of women's protests and gathering storm for a strike wave. Government of the rich, for the rich won't do shit for the working class unless they feel fear. Luckily the farmers' protests have shown the way to go.

VinnyDaCat ,

People frame it as an either/or because the reality is that voting doesn't hold the personal power you think it does.

Due to how our elections work your vote just might be worthless. Add on all of the other issues at hand, and the prospective of voting is absolutely depressing for some of us.

This still doesn't really make it an either/or situation, but one situation gives you the ability to potentially make a positive difference in the world, whereas the other, not so much.

nomous ,

Like I said, absolute minimum you can do.

SphereofWreckening ,

That Christian Nationalist USA is already present. It's emboldening is inevitable due to the inaction from Democrats and especially Biden: the alleged "moderate" president.

Biden is also actively arming a genocide in Gaza. A move I would say is extremely far from moderate in any position. Trump is a horrible choice for president. It was true in 2016 and it's true now. But if Biden refuses to do even the barest of minimums to defeat him in an election what does that say about Biden?

So sure, call it smugness, call it idiotic or whatever bullshit; continue to vilify those tired of voting for bullshit candidates and inaction. I'm sure that will help prove your point; as Biden does literally nothing to combat any of increasingly tense situations rising in the US under his tenure.

LongMember69 ,

Please don’t misunderstand me: I’m not thrilled about the situation either.

But I’m also not going to coddle anyone that thinks making things significantly worse for untold millions to maintain some kind of ideological purity makes them somehow superior or less culpable.

SphereofWreckening ,

I wouldn't water opposing genocide down to "ideological purity". It's opposing genocide, and that's objectively right every time.

And that's before getting into Joe's inaction on pretty much any important issues during his term. If Trump wins the 2024 election then outside of the GOP that's entirely on Joe Biden for failing to oppose genocide and run any sort of compelling administration.

LongMember69 ,

The reality of the shitty political system of the US means that it comes down to two bad choices.

However one of the bad choices would see the genocide of the Palestinian people accelerated. Not only that, but Trump has tried to oppose aid to Ukraine, which would allow for genocide of the Ukrainian people to occur unabated.

So if your actions to oppose one genocide results in the continuation of that genocide plus one more, is what you did objectively right every time?

SphereofWreckening , (edited )

Yes, it is still objectively right. Anyone deciding not to vote for Biden isn't automatically culpable for any Trump victory unless they voted for him personally.

Again, Biden has had plenty of time to prove that he's against genocide. To take any sort of major action to try and stop this genocide from continuing the way that it has. Or at the very least taking away all US military funding from Israel. He has done none of that while approving additional military funding for Israel.

This is of course before bringing up the electoral college and how the majority of states don't even get a say in the presidential election outside of their states predetermined answer.

I will not vote for anyone funding genocide. Again, if Trump wins that's entirely on Biden and the Democrats for failing to do anything. The signs have been here for months if not years in terms of voter disatisfaction: and they continue to do fuck all.

LongMember69 ,

Yes, it is still objectively right. Anyone deciding not to vote for Biden isn't automatically culpable for any Trump victory unless they voted for him personally.

This is an incredibly naïve and privileged perspective, clearly held by someone who has nothing to lose if Trump were to win.

whoreticulture ,

Biden is president now and trans kids rights are being taken away, black people still disproportionately victimized by police violence, asylum seeking immigrants turned away at the border, and we are funding genocide!!!

It's naive to think that Biden and the Democratic Party has any incentive to change their policies when people will blindly vote them in no matter what they do.

SphereofWreckening ,

I'm actively watching the rights of my loved one literally be stripped away while Biden does fuck all. You can call me whatever you want, but the point remains that Biden has done fuck all and is actively promoting genocide.

You don't know the first thing about me; so don't condescend to me while ignoring everything else I've said.

Pan_Ziemniak ,

All the anarkiddies that think the revolution is right around the bend forget that the reason vulnerable groups dont typically get any better treatment post revolution is bc they are the first to be destroyed when the revolution kicks up and the fascists double down.

These sorts of takes kill me. There is nothing stopping you from taking revolutionary courses of action right fucking now. The doors wide fucking open. Youll find that those doors will inch closed real fucking quick under trump.

The Spanish anarchists still have a political party active in Spain whose history runs right back to the civil war in which they fought. The very second of their posted tenets is (paraphrasing), making conditions under the current agenda more tolerable.

Meanwhile, russia has a single communist party formed in the 90s. Why? Bc all others were singularly crushed. They left the one that offers least opposition to the status quo.

That situation hasnt arrived yet. You are free to organize, you are free to aggregate in groups. You can spread your own propaganda, just as you can form or join labor unions, and you are free to try and create new communities of mutual aid. Those are all viable (read: necessary) steps to take.

Good luck taking them when the boot comes crashing down harder than this country has ever seen or was ever prepared for. Voting for Status Quo Joe isnt an endorsement of him, his policies, or the neoliberal status quo. Its just that, a vote. You can use it strategically to buy more time to make evasive maneuvers, or u can forfeit ur vote and lose it all. Then theres always throw it to the dogs via third party the way the american libertarians tried in 2012 when ron paul didnt get the repub nom the way they wanted. Guess what happened then... Johnson still get way under the 5% of the vote needed to give third parties greater tv time next time around. And this time, if dump wins, thats probably going to be the last ur able to vote for a third party president anyway.

We (the left) have been hit by foreign astroturfing the way the right was in 2016. The influx of youth that was supposed to save us by their leftward skew is running away from the political process bc they think theyre going to be revolutionaries. Sorry boys and girls, anarchy/communism wont be brought about by memes, sitting at home, or pretending that you can convince ppl to join ur cause after trumps elected when their lives are going to be all the more consumed and their free time dwindles away as we all work heavier and heavier hrs and the retirement age slips further and further away.

Really sick of hearing it all.

hoosierHillPowderedCheese ,

reason vulnerable groups dont typically get any better treatment post revolution is bc they are the first to be destroyed when the revolution kicks up and the fascists double down.

citation needed

Xtallll ,
@Xtallll@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

[Thread, post or comment was deleted by the moderator]

    •
    hoosierHillPowderedCheese ,

    none of those support the claim

    hoosierHillPowderedCheese ,

    Voting for Status Quo Joe isnt an endorsement of him, his policies, or the neoliberal status quo.

    that's what a vote is.

    Pan_Ziemniak ,

    It is a strategic decision. Same as the past however many elections.

    For the first time 2 years ago, however, i got the opportunity to vote for a candidate that i actually really liked to represent my voting district. And guess what, she won! My vote for her wasnt my endorsement of her, however. My spamming her name and cause to anyone in the area that would listen and donating money was.

    hoosierHillPowderedCheese ,

    voting is an endorsement

    hoosierHillPowderedCheese ,

    if dump wins, thats probably going to be the last ur able to vote for a third party president anyway.

    there is no reason to believe this. he has never suggested animosity toward so-called third parties.

    Pan_Ziemniak ,

    Project 2025 is a thing, it is backed by the federalist society. What third parties remain will be the equivalent of the same in russia.

    hoosierHillPowderedCheese ,

    p2025 is a ghost story told to keep blue voters in line. I'm not a blue voter anymore so it doesn't work on me

    Xtallll ,
    @Xtallll@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    These sorts of takes kill me.

    Literally me.

    Pan_Ziemniak ,

    Woke up for my graveyard shift and amongst the tankies crying about facts in my inbox i at least had this to make me laugh. Thanks bae <3

    whoreticulture ,

    The problem is that "moderates" are very conservative and fascist-leaning as well. The Biden administration is still funding genocide, still turning away asylum-seeking migrants, hell Biden hasn't even followed through on releasing prisoners convicted of marijuana convictions.

    And people ARE protesting now, but not as much as under Trump, and these things haven't changed. Biden allows barely engaged liberals to think everything is okay, but Biden is still AWFUL he just has better optics to liberals.

    LongMember69 ,

    Yeah, I agree that it’s a shit situation and an undesirable choice. But the unfortunate political reality we currently live in is that it’s either Biden or Trump.

    Yes, the Biden administration is supplying weapons to Israel that are being used for genocide. Trump has commented that Israel needs to “finish the problem.”

    Yes, the Biden administration is turning away asylum seekers on our southern border. Trump has said that migrants are “poisoning the blood” of our nation.

    I challenge your last point regarding marijuana convictions: https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2022/10/06/statement-from-president-biden-on-marijuana-reform/

    But I will again will contrast that Trump rescinded the Obama-era policy of not pursuing marijuana charges at the federal level in states where it was legal. A clear and significant step backward.

    whoreticulture ,

    https://www.lastprisonerproject.org/president-biden-issues-additional-cannabis-pardons-but-still-no-one-has-been-released

    it's optics

    LongMember69 ,

    It’s not ”just optics”. Per your source he did pardon 6,500 individuals, which the Last Prisoner Project described as “progress for those eligible for relief.”

    Now they do argue that the Biden administration should go further by pardoning 3,000 additional people, which I agree with. But to call this step forward “just optics” is at best disingenuous.

    whoreticulture ,

    It's not nothing, but it's barely anything. He could also deschedule cannabis.

    LongMember69 ,

    It’s not nothing, but it’s barely anything.

    Tell that to the 6,500 people that got their freedom back.

    And I reject your assertion that it’s barely anything: by your source’s count he pardoned 2/3 of the people caught up in these archaic cannabis laws.

    Referencing back to OP, would you rather have 2/3 of an ice cream cone or go off a cliff?

    He could also deschedule cannabis

    No, he likely cannot unilaterally do that: https://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/can-president-biden-legalize-marijuana-1220802/

    Do you at least acknowledge that slow incremental progress, while admittedly not nearly enough, is definitely better than going backwards?

    whoreticulture ,

    There are different opinions about who has the power to deschedule cannabis, but Biden has not even tried. He is working on rescheduling, but that seems to be an "incremental step" that would also cause problems

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/sarahsinclair/2024/03/18/biden-says-hes-taking-care-of-federal-cannabis-laws-but-is-rescheduling-enough/?sh=290affc94e8d

    I think that boycotting a vote on Democrats until they adopt leftist politics is a completely valid way to move the party. Republicans have essentially done the same, remember the Tea Party movement? It worked for them. The "incrementalist" approach has left us with a president who won't even say the word Genocide, worse is activity funding genocide.

    Custoslibera ,

    Trump is literally a fascist. You’re damn right Biden has better optics…because he isn’t a fascist. So who are you voting for then?

    whoreticulture ,

    Biden is also a fascist, he's just not proud about it

    Custoslibera ,

    No he isn’t and the fact you’re equivocating him to Trump is frankly ridiculous.

    He’s a capitalist, imperialist, hegemonic proprietor. Sure. Fascist he is not.

    whoreticulture ,

    He is funding Israel's genocide, that is fascist. He is president of one of the most incarcerated nations in the world. Has he done anything to eliminate the prison industrial complex? He leads the most powerful army in the world.

    Democrats do just enough to make it so that liberals don't feel icky about their day to day lives.

    Custoslibera ,

    Biden should be criticised for not demanding Israel stop unnecessary civilian deaths.

    It seems like by this logic every western nation leader who hasn’t directly intervened to stop Israel is a fascist.

    Plenty of countries have trade relationships with Israel and are funding their war indirectly.

    What I have seen though is that as pressure is applied to Biden on this issue he is more likely to ratchet up pressure on Bibi to rein it in. The same could not be said if Trump were in office.

    Again though I ask you, who are you voting for if not Biden?

    whoreticulture , (edited )

    Yes!!! They are all fascist countries! And there are a few that are taking steps to end it.

    Biden is not "failing to stop unnecessary civilian deaths" - this is a Zionist framing that paints the genocide as a just war. It is a genocide and Biden is ARMING the military commiting genocide. Biden is actively involved.

    Biden is not pressuring Bibi in any real way whatsoever.

    Let me ask you how Biden and the Democratic party are supposed to be held accountable, how are they going to change if people keep voting for them? Because so far they have NOT changed. The strategy of continually voting in lackluster candidates has not gotten us anywhere.

    nomous ,

    You know fascism has an actual definition right?

    whoreticulture ,

    If the United States does not seem like a fascist country to you, you are probably very privileged and politically undereducated. We are funding a genocide for an ethnostate. We have a hugely inflated prison population for whom slavery is legal. No country even comes close to the amount of money we spend on the military, look it up it's not even close.

    Sure, we have democratic elections, but so does Russia. When the "good guys" win the presidency, the United States is still doing all those things I mentioned.

    nomous ,

    Lotta hyperbole and angry assumptions about who's privileged and politically uneducated in this conversation.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

    whoreticulture ,

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_fascism

    There are so many definitions, I don't know why you insist on one that apparently doesn't include slavery, genocide, and military worship.

    Guntrigger ,

    According to this logic, the US has been a fascist state since WW2 due to its creation of and unwavering support for Israel.

    whoreticulture ,

    ... yes??? yess???!!

    And when we had slavery?? (which we continue to have now in our prisons)

    And we do torture,

    and we assassinate black people when they organize,

    we have a huge military worship culture,

    and we have so many territories and military bases abroad and have funded so many horrible dictators

    How are you not seeing it? Honestly?

    Guntrigger ,

    Sure. So what do you propose to do next?

    The context of this thread is that you're specifically labelling Joe Biden a fascist. Why single him out if it's the whole system and everyone in it?

    whoreticulture ,

    Exactly, why vote for him? Vote for a third party candidate and stop voting in fascists.

    cmbabul ,

    Here’s the fucking frighting thing, the moderates I know(relatives mostly) hate Biden because of the price of gas and groceries, that he isn’t killing everyone trying to cross the southern border, and believe Trump will be better for America in these crazy times. It’s fucking depressing to hear

    whoreticulture ,

    This is what I'm saying - the moderates fucking suck and it's not worth trying to win them over. Move the party left, the zombified vote-blue-no-matter-who Democrats will vote for a more leftist candidate just like they vote for a more moderate candidate.

    cmbabul ,

    I agree with your goal and the spirit of what you’re saying completely, but we’re kinda stuck between a rock and a hard place right now. Unless something completely unexpected like multiple age related deaths or a violent revolt happens there are only two candidates with any chance of attaining the office. Which means we have to make a choice. A choice I hate making but I want to continue to make choices in the future so it’s one I have to make.

    whoreticulture ,

    I do understand that take and desire for harm reduction. I am a trans person and my and my friend's rights are constantly politicized by both parties. But even under Biden, trans people are actively being targeted in certain states, and under Trump, trans rights were strengthened in other states. The president can only (or chooses to only) do so much. But things the president can change include foreign policy, military actions.... so I think refusing to vote for Biden over the issues he has the most direct power over is absolutely appropriate.

    I believe that voting third party could enable long term change, and that voting for Biden is perpetuating the system that is already causing so much harm.

    cmbabul ,

    Ok so, Trump and the GOP are marching head first into genocidal fascism and you’re naive to think you’ll ever get to vote again if he’s elected. The president only has so much power because it’s checked, that won’t happen this time as the courts are stacked to allow christofascim and both houses of Congress are hamstrung with infighting. Some state govs will resist and I applaud that but it leads us into constitutional crises and in my mind civil war. As a trans person I think you should understand the threat to your very life if Trump regains power in this current political world we exist in. Biden fucking sucks all around but we buy more time with him, which is a shitty comprise, but Trump term two, signals the end of the United States and puts the final nail in the coffin of doing anything to mitigate climate change. Not to mention the dissolution of nato which he’s verbal said he’s inclined to induce, which means the end of Ukraine as a nation and likely a Chinese takeover of Taiwan, is also suspect a rollback in workers rights and more tax cuts for the rich.

    A third party vote only matters when the message sent matters to the recipients. The only way it MIGHT is if Biden wins and democracy continues. Because Trump won’t give a good goddamn.

    We don’t have the luxury of that right now and I hate it too, but it’s the lot we’ve all fucking drawn.

    whoreticulture ,

    I think you're thinking fatalistically when we have the capacity to try to change things.

    1. a civil war sounds overall good? realistically, I don't think there will be a peaceful dissolution to the United States (has this ever historically happened?), and if some states could escape and self-govern, the people in those states might be better off. a constitutional crisis is long overdue. also justifying a vote for the candidate who is funding genocide by saying you want to avoid civil war is kinda hypocritical right? war for thee but not for me?

    2. SOME people are buying time under Biden, other people in many states are not doing well at all!

    3. Trump can't dissolve NATO by himself https://www.cnn.com/2024/02/13/politics/congress-trump-nato-what-matters/index.html

    the most he can do is defund the military, which would weaken the United States ability to enact NATO obligations. And defunding the military seems good?? If he wants to do that for that weird roundabout reason.

    also, the United States is only one of many countries in NATO. the states of Taiwan and Ukraine wouldn't instantly crumble. and you're so concerned about the right to statehood, but you're willing to throw Palestinians under the bus?

    1. the idea of the third party vote isn't that Trump would care, it's that Democrats would run more leftist candidates in the future and start trying to appease leftists instead of moving more and more to the right.
    cmbabul ,

    Ok wow you’re delusional and unrealistic

    1. a second American civil war would be the most horrific, violent, and bloody war in all of human history and the species let along civilization would have very little chance at surviving again. Secondly if you think trump will stop Israel from genociding I have a bridge in Arizona. Biden hasn’t been funding Israel for 70 years we the American people have. Trump funded Israel when he was president. Yeah we’ll all be better off when there are insane Christian warlords sacrificing people to the Lord in Tennessee. Totally makes it seem like you have a foot in the reality of what a war within the US would look like

    2. so are those people that aren’t going to be saved by Trump? Things will get better if you spite vote?

    3. all Trump has to do is order the US military out, the rest of nato won’t do shit to enforce that because the US has the largest military and without it nato is horribly undermanned and would collapse in a domino fashion. You’re fooling yourself here. These are all things written on paper, fascists don’t give a fuck about shit like that

    1. What the fuck does that matter if Dems never gain power again, which Trump will ensure doesn’t happen, as he’s pledged to go after his enemies

    I’m done here and you’re blocked. I don’t have anymore energy to spend on someone so hopelessly deluded about the gravity of our current situation. I honestly hope you’re just a bad faith actor. Go to hell, I love you

    whoreticulture ,

    oh I started to write a thoughtful answer then saw you blocked me.

    You are the one who is hopelessly deluded about the gravity of our situation. Under Biden, we are already living under a totalitarian, racist, transphobic government. A civil war is a hypothetical, the genocide is actually actively happening right now with funding that Biden approved. Many Democrats have expressed enthusiastic support for Israel's violence.

    commie ,

    you’re naive to think you’ll ever get to vote again if he’s elected.

    he was elected before and we've had votes since then.

    commie ,

    A third party vote only matters when the message sent matters to the recipients.

    if biden wins, he can't possibly lose another election, so nothing would matter to him. but i reject outright the labeling of any party as "third party" or the idea that it's supposed to send a message different from any other vote. when you vote, you are saying who you want to have the position. i don't want biden to have it, so i won't be voting for him.

    TheKingBee ,
    @TheKingBee@lemmy.world avatar

    ”Both options are cliffs!”

    But they are though.

    The cliff drivers aren't getting off the bus, even if we vote them down this time, if we don't change the system that allows them equal opportunity to drive us off a cliff they will eventually force it off the cliff.

    Biden has long supported the system that allows it, prides himself on being able to find a middle ground with them, and though he talks about not going over the cliff has no long term plan for dealing with those that do, because again he believes in the system that allows them to want to drive off the cliff.

    I believe I've stretched this metaphor about as far as it will go, but I'm going to try stretching it further.

    There are actually two cliffs, fascism and climate change, even if we pull the bus away from one cliff we've still got the other in front of us and basically no one is even pretending to deal with that.

    And to leave the broken bus scenario, I'm just going to say if you believe that a trump win will destroy American democracy, that we can't defeat his corrupt, senile version of fascism then the next republican demagogue will have no problems.

    whoreticulture ,

    People keep acting like we have forever to make change. Meanwhile we are in the midst of a literal climate crisis, and people are literally starving to death with the help of U.S. dollars.

    tb_ ,
    @tb_@lemmy.world avatar

    There are actually two cliffs

    Yeah, and Trump is going to drive you off of both.

    TheKingBee ,
    @TheKingBee@lemmy.world avatar

    If you think that trump is capable of that then you admit the American system is so flawed that a diaper wearing dementia ridden criminal is all it will take to bring it down. That Pax Americana is on the death bed and electing Biden is just kicking the can down the road.

    Without the looming existential threat of the climate apocalypse and the inevitability of children born today fighting in the water wars, Biden might be fine, but we need action now and anything else isn't just lesser of two evils, it's complete failure in our lifetimes...

    tb_ ,
    @tb_@lemmy.world avatar

    Biden has put a hold on a ton of planned LNG infrastructure permits.

    Trump gave out permits left and right. Also Trump literally tried to overthrow the government on January 6th.

    Biden may not be doing enough, but he isn't doing nothing either. Trump is going to make everything worse for everyone and the climate.

    Andrzej ,
    @Andrzej@lemmy.myserv.one avatar

    Or, more realistically:

    • 3 vote to drive off the cliff
    • 2 vote for ice-cream
    • 4 vote to drive off the cliff at a slightly reduced speed, having been assured that they might get to look at a picture of some ice-cream, but only after democracy has been saved
    pachrist ,

    Yeah, I really don't get this attitude on Lemmy. I get not wanting to crash the bus. But voting for the guy who at best will let the other guy crash the bus in the future or at worst crash the bus tomorrow isn't the answer.

    I first thought that Lemmy was a little more of the early internet forums I remember, more anti-establishment, anarchist, left wing, but there's way too much "vote blue no matter who" which is the exact same mentality that has killed the Republican party. Is Candidate A an immoral shit bag? Doesn't matter; there's a D next to their name. Probably better than the guy with the R. Better not see if anyone else is on the list.

    I can afford to vote my conscience. I live in a deeply red state, so my vote doesn't matter, something Democrats could try to fix, but they won't. Voting 3rd party does matter though, and it's the only way to truly affect real change and make a difference. It's the DNC and RNC's job to field a candidate who's worth your vote. If they don't do that, find someone who's worth it.

    Pan_Ziemniak ,

    Youre not going to get a chance to vote third party again under donnie dump, tho.

    zbyte64 ,
    @zbyte64@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    Nah, they'll still let parties that don't have a chance run for election. Just look at Russia, they recently had an election...

    Pan_Ziemniak ,

    Oh yes, fair point. Like the communist party of russia. There once was many, but they ensured only the one that they could best control remains

    hex_m_hell ,
    @hex_m_hell@slrpnk.net avatar

    You will never get a chance to vote for what you want became America isn't a democracy. It's not a democracy if a club of rich people choose who you get to vote for. That's literally how Chinese democracy works except it's the party instead of the oligarchs.

    Pan_Ziemniak ,

    Cant decide if this comment is more ignorant, or defeatist...

    hex_m_hell ,
    @hex_m_hell@slrpnk.net avatar

    The bus is heading for a cliff. Someone stands up and says, "this is stupid! We should change the way we make decisions so this can't happen!" You hold that person down so they can't stop the driver because you want to tell the driver to get ice cream after the bus drives off the cliff.

    Pan_Ziemniak ,

    Someone has not read the faq in the OP. And either theyve missed the million and one times i call for direct action, or theyre just another bad faith actor.

    hex_m_hell ,
    @hex_m_hell@slrpnk.net avatar

    The US is not a democracy, it's an oligarchy. This is a fact. We talk about it constantly. The fact that oligarchs basically choose who can and can't run for the two major parties, and that the two major parties control the debates, mirrors the way the Chinese Communist Party controls who can run in elections. In both cases they let the people choose between the options that are acceptable to those who are actually in charge. This is just an observation of reality.

    The US was built by slave owning oligarchs who didn't want to pay taxes for the genocide they'd been doing. They built a system od government around controlling the population. Only landed white men could vote. The facade of the system has changed over time but the system itself remains largely the same: a small group of landed white men get to control basically everything. This is just an observation of history.

    The idea that any colonizer state can possibly be democratic is just absurd. Any system bult on genocide and oppression won't magically stop being built on genocide and oppression. The system must be completely replaced.

    So the question to ask is if you advocate direct action to make sure this isn't something that can ever happened again, or if you just advocate direct action so you can go back to brunch until next time?

    Pan_Ziemniak ,

    Blah blah blah, more "go and hate ur country the way Vlad wants. All the big countries are the same, clearly USA = China."

    hex_m_hell ,
    @hex_m_hell@slrpnk.net avatar

    People in functional countries don't love their country. Only dictatorships do that, like Russia, China, and the US. People in normal countries acknowledge the problems and work to solve them, because there are actually solutions. If it is impossible to solve things in your country, why would you not hate your government?

    Saying that anyone who points out flaws is an enemy agent is something cults and dictatorships do. It's how Xi and Putin maintain control, it's how Trump maintains control of his people, and it's how America has worked for generations. You are responding like someone who is in a cult.

    Pan_Ziemniak ,

    I called u an enemy of the country not for pointing out flaws, but disparaging those calling for all avenues of action to be takrn. The countries u reference are hostile to the states, dump is an agent of one of those countries, im done making the point to u that keeping a hostile foreign entity out of the executive seat of power here is a cause for good, u menstrual fucking clot.

    Andrzej ,
    @Andrzej@lemmy.myserv.one avatar

    I would honestly recommend moving somewhere that federates with both lib and tankie servers because the tone/level of debate otherwise is pretty grim imho

    LazyPhilosopher ,

    Not voting is lazy in most circumstances for sure. What I hate is that people equate voting third party with not voting. I'm not voting blue. Y'all can't guilt me into it. I'm voting for a third party socialist. 😏

    spujb OP ,

    i gently would encourage you to look into game theory and the far reaching implications of the spoiler effect under first past the post

    i do applaud your commitment to morally tenable candidates, however many folks find there is a deeper opportunity for good in the voting process, at least in the current environment, and i generally concur

    LazyPhilosopher ,

    I appreciate you being nice. I understand the concern you have with the spoiler effect. But our country has been stuck in this lesser evil game for my whole life. That being said I also live in a very blue state. If my state were to go red it won't be because of the few people like that vote third party.

    Liz ,

    You have to change the voting system if you want to change the game. I suggest volunteering with Election Science to switch your elections to Approval Voting, so you can vote for everyone you like, instead of just the person you hate least.

    LazyPhilosopher ,

    Yep I know. Sadly elected officials are needed to change the voting system so that's largely unhelpful.

    I'd love to have ranked choices voting. But like only the third party candidates would possibly do that. Candidates from team red or blue have nothing to gain by doing that and stand to lose everything by doing it.

    Liz ,

    They're not needed in every jurisdiction. In some places you can change the voting method through referendum. It does suck when you can't do that though. I still like approval voting over rcv, but anything is better than choose one.

    whoreticulture ,

    The threat of the spoiler effect could be used to move the Democratic Party's policy left. You're not thinking strategically.

    spujb OP ,

    feel free to elaborate im not seeing your vision right now

    whoreticulture ,
    1. leftists don't vote for Biden. big coalition voting for a socialist third party candidate.
    2. Democrats lose or get scared and run someone more left next election. Democrats stop trying to appease centrists and start trying to appease leftists who will demonstrably withhold votes

    pretty straightforward

    spujb OP ,

    kind of already happening, if on a smaller scale.

    to do it full scale as you suggest you’d need a infeasibly huge chunk of capital to run against an incumbent.

    whoreticulture ,

    Yes exactly this movement!

    I am not really suggesting that a third party candidate could win during this election, I agree about the capital. But you can pressure the Democrats to take on leftist policies as much as possible by refusing to vote for Democrats, and voting for a third party alternative.

    I honestly don't see another way that Democrats would be prompted to change their policies, as it is they have remained moderate (aka conservative on a global political context). But if Democrats saw that 10% of the vote went to a Socialist, and they lost because of that?? They would change.

    Right now the Democrats are catering towards conservative moderates who think that a white nationalist candidate a potentially viable option.

    spujb OP ,

    yeah i totally concur and have been consistently in favor of the uncommitted movement. i also think folks voting third party in deep blue states, where the risk of spoiling for a fascist win is low, aren’t incredibly off the mark. i’m not smart enough to understand polster analysis so i can’t pretend to know if these pressures are working, but i do support them.

    so i don’t really get where your accusations of me not thinking strategically are coming from lol.

    whoreticulture ,

    The "game theory" argument is one I see being used mostly by vote-blue-no-matter-who types. And you were trying to dissuade the other commenter from third party voting. So I am genuinely surprised that that is not your position. You were saying that voting third party would have a deleterious impact due to the spoiler effect.

    So, you were saying that people should vote for Biden due to game theory, which is a tool to understand strategy. I was telling you you're not thinking strategically because I think that by limiting your analysis to just game theory in this single election cycle, you are missing the strategic possibilities enabled by voting third party.

    spujb OP ,

    yeah i guess you just assumed wrong and that there are positions out there with nuance you can’t guess from just a few sentences haha

    “game theory” is a real field of study of how individuals work together within a system, so i wouldn’t treat it like it’s a dog whistle which is kind of what looks like happened here

    whoreticulture ,

    I've seen a lot of vote-who-no-matter who using game theory the way you did, I think if you look for it you might start to notice it!

    I think probably everyone is more nuanced than we end up making ourselves seem online 😅

    mindbleach ,

    And the difference between that and not-voting is what?

    Not counting an air of smug superiority.

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