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Leate_Wonceslace ,
@Leate_Wonceslace@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Note: No government employee can ever legally demand that a citizen recite the pledge.

Zeratul ,
@Zeratul@lemmus.org avatar

Someone tell that to my third grade teacher.

Leate_Wonceslace ,
@Leate_Wonceslace@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

They should, yes.

HawlSera ,

See, I'm playing both sides so that I always come out on top.

Memes aside, it's totally not a form of brainwashing to have young children pledge allegiance to the flag before they're even old enough to understand the concept of pledges or allegiances!

Stalinwolf , (edited )
@Stalinwolf@lemmy.ca avatar

I grew up in America and have lived in Canada for seven years now. I've come to recognize that Canadians (except for the staunch conservatives who aren't pleased with anything) are proud and loyal to Canada because it's a beautiful country that has (for the most part) taken pretty good care of its people. Americans are proud and loyal mostly because they were brainwashed throughout their lives by pledges, patriotic songs, and tall tales about the founding fathers. I personally found little to be proud of in my thirty years as an American.

Also, one time a pair of planes took down some skyscrapers.
Alan Jackson wrote a song about it, and America invaded an unrelated country. That made people really proud too.

HawlSera ,

I'm just so proud of generations that weren't around during 9/11, for making memes about it, and mocking the "NEVA FORGET!!111" Propaganda in the process

George W. Bush absolutely did 9/11 on purpose.

chiliedogg ,

Of all the 9/11 songs, I feel like Alan Jackson's was alright. It was contemplative and didn't call for violence. Yeah, it had a religous turn to it, but it was talking about love being more important than politics and war.

Toby Keith, on the other hand, wrote songs about bombing Muslims and other military-porn shit. Fuck that guy.

Honytawk , (edited )

Stop thinking for yourself, Corey.

Blindly accept allegiance to the piece of fabric we chose, Corey.

Just say the words and be indoctrinated into our cult to be a mindless slave with unwavering loyalty, Corey.

Do as we say, Corey.

merc ,

The "and" is the really wierd part.

If they had worded it as "I pledge allegiance to the flag, to the republic for which it stands" you could think: "Ok, the flag is just a symbol of the country, you're actually just pledging allegiance to the country."

But, the "and" makes it clear that it's to the country and to the flag. How can you have allegiance to a flag? It isn't even about pledging to respect the flag, it's "allegiance". It's like pledging obedience to the colour blue, or pledging fealty to the sound of applause.

ltxrtquq ,

or pledging fealty to the sound of applause.

There's a joke in there somewhere about chasing fame and the approval of strangers

PersnickityPenguin , (edited )

Here's why:

The Pledge of Allegiance was first published for Columbus Day, on September
8, 1892, in the Boston magazine The Youth’s Companion. It was written
by a member of the magazine’s staff, Francis Bellamy. The publication of the
Pledge, and its wide redistribution to schools in pamphlet form later that year
lead to a recitation by millions of school children, starting a tradition that
continues today.

Anyways, soldiers have died to save the flag. Standard bearers were critical officers during battle, and were responsible for holding a unit together, say when charging an enemy line or rallying the troops to defend a trench. Losing the standard could lose the battle and your men.

ILikeBoobies ,

I would be wary of an ethnostate’s offer if you weren’t part of that ethnicity

Much safer to take Russia’s offer

alcoholicorn ,

In what sense is China an ethnostate?

UrbonMaximus ,

The 91% Han Chinese sense..

match ,
@match@pawb.social avatar

I wouldn't say that makes them an ethnostate (considering the obvious genetic, cultural, and language diversity among Han ethnicities) but the forced Mandarin and Uyghur re-education camps are better arguments

UrbonMaximus ,

"Ethnostate - noun. a state that is dominated by members of a single ethnic group."
That exactly makes them an Ethnostate.
Mandarin and Uyghur re-education camps is authoritarianism.

match ,
@match@pawb.social avatar

Han Chinese isn't a single ethnic group. They don't speak the same language and they're genetically and culturally diverse. The CCP is attempting to erase that diversity to become an ethnostate.

UrbonMaximus ,

Just because you disagree with a definition, doesn't mean it's wrong.

Every country is culturally diverse, but there's still statistical common denominator. You have big differences in languages, accents, food, culture in the UK and yet 82% are white British. Same goes for Germany, Japan etc.
Every country do their demographic analyses differently, but the point is that they all can have major differences within the same ethic group.

So we should either agree to use the same definition or agree that it has no meaning and not use that word at all.

match , (edited )
@match@pawb.social avatar

I agree with your definition of ethnostate and everything you said. But Han Chinese is strictly not a single ethnicity and it is purely to the CCP's advantage to say it is.

edit: Han is what we might call a race, in that it's a bunch of distinct ethnicities bundled together via social construct for the purposes of allying that group of ethnicities against the others. So China is a racist state, but not an ethnostate, because an ethnostate is "a state that is dominated by members of a single ethnic group."

ILikeBoobies ,

Prop Chinese up as superior

Eradicating local culture in Tibet and Xinjiang

Enforcing Mandarin

alcoholicorn , (edited )

Eradicating local culture in Tibet and Xinjiang

Except they still have their culture. We know what eradication of a culture looks like, it looks like schools that ban the use of native languages, instead of teach in them.

~98% of Tibetans speak a Tibetan language.

Enforcing Mandarin

Everyone in China learns Mandarin in additional to their local language, how else are they supposed to communicate with people from other parts of China?

ILikeBoobies ,

In my country people can’t communicate with others. We make it work

alcoholicorn ,

What country? Surely you don't mean Canada where native schools teach in english?

ILikeBoobies ,

And French schools teach French

Are you mentally deficient?

match ,
@match@pawb.social avatar

Is replacing textbooks with Mandarin texts just half-eradication, then?

alcoholicorn ,

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/politics/article/3100112/inner-mongolia-doubles-down-chinas-plan-teach-key-subjects

The regional government announced last week that primary and secondary schools that originally taught in the Mongolian language would shift to Mandarin to teach three core subjects: literature, ethics and history

Turns out it's hard to teach Chinese literature, ethics, and history when you can't interact with the primary sources.

match ,
@match@pawb.social avatar

That's the core question then: should Mongolian children be made to learn Chinese literature, ethics, and history instead of Mongolian literature, ethics, and history?

alcoholicorn ,

They should learn both. But as an American, it's laughable for me to have an opinion on the matter given the way indigenous people are treated here.

match ,
@match@pawb.social avatar

I have real strong opinions about how indigenous people are treated here, why wouldn't I have those opinions about other nonruling groups?

alcoholicorn , (edited )

2 reasons:

  1. The reletive silence suggests most people who talk about minority rights in China don't actually care about minorities rights, because I see >100 "but what about the uhigars or women in Iran" or w/e for every post about the poisoning of Hawaiian or Dakota water.

  2. We can actually have positive impacts on native Americans, when it comes to minorities in enemies of America, it's just carrying water for hostile action that hurt those people as much as anyone else. A productive context for that discussion wouldn't involve Americans.

Same when articles trot out LGBT rights in Gaza or Iran or Russia as if those groups don't suffer from hunger and lack of medicine due to western sanctions.

match ,
@match@pawb.social avatar

Disagreed with #2. I think it'd be pretty nice if Canada or Europe pushed on America to grant more rights and justice to its indigenous groups (see things like the UN special rapporteur on poverty in the US). We're pretty powerless against our government and external sources, for as little as they can penetrate the US media bubble, give us some ammunition to use to coerce the local governments.

alcoholicorn , (edited )

Canada

Canada is just as bad, and not just the basic stuff like poisoning their drinking water and the state stealing children. Ask an old first nations person to tell you about the history, things like starlight tours and child abduction that make it into the official narrative is just the tip of the ice burg.

But Canada or Europe pressuring America would be completely different, since Canada or Europe aren't using it to make their population more accepting of sanctions, bombing, or invasion of America.

We’re pretty powerless against our government

That's true, but we're infinitely less influential of other governments. Mohammed Mokhber isn't gonna log on, see americans furious with the Iranian government's treatment of gay people and say "Oh shit gays are just as deserving of human rights", nor will Biden read it and announce all gay Iranians are eligible for asylum. Rather Americans log in, go "look at those barbarians", and support sanctions, bombing, and invasion.

The same mechanism is why media outlets that support the the genocide of Gaza also run articles decrying the plight of gay people in Gaza.

uis ,
@uis@lemm.ee avatar

Please do it AFTER Pu and his mafia dies, goes to Hauge or convicted domestically. Thanks.

NutWrench ,
@NutWrench@lemmy.world avatar

A country that truly believes in freedom and democracy shouldn't require you to take a loyalty oath every day.

Alexstarfire ,

In most schools, it's not. But they don't advertise that.

AngryCommieKender , (edited )

In most schools it is. 46-47 states have laws requiring it.

https://thehill.com/homenews/3256719-47-states-require-the-pledge-of-allegiance-be-recited-in-schools-here-is-a-breakdown-of-each-states-laws/

wanderer ,

West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943), is a landmark decision by the United States Supreme Court holding that the First Amendment protects students from being compelled to salute the American flag or say the Pledge of Allegiance in public schools.

They can't require participation.

Alexstarfire ,

It says I live in a state that requires it with no exceptions and that's simply not true. In HS a lot of students didn't participate.

scutiger ,

It's been made clear in court that students can't be forced to make the pledge against their will.

AFC1886VCC ,

The Conservatives here in the UK wanted to enforce something similar, but in the form of a patriotic song. Everybody just laughed. That would never fly here!

jol ,

And it's spreading. Denmark is pushing laws to restrict using other flags. It might be a dog whistle for anti-palestine but still. Rubs me the wrong way.

HawlSera ,

That's how I feel about my state adopting laws saying Non-Citizens can't vote. They already can't, the only thing the law is accomplishing is a dog whistle.

mnemonicmonkeys ,

Let me guess: Ohio?

HawlSera ,

Thankfully not, North Carolina

mnemonicmonkeys ,

For now

HawlSera ,

Oh no...

https://youtu.be/r3fD5FPQBtI

devfuuu , (edited )

This whole thing is such a mind fuck and crazy process for people outside merica. I really thought it was a joke on movies, but realising that they are really all brainwashed since children like this makes a lot more sense when you consider everything.

PersnickityPenguin ,

Counterargument:

If no one believes or identifies with a nation, that nation will cease to exist.

NutWrench ,
@NutWrench@lemmy.world avatar

The idea that "things don't exist when we stop believing in them" is something that most of us outgrow at an early age.

nonentity ,

Object permanence applies to tangible objects, basically things explained by physics and constituted from energy.

A nation is a construct of collective imagination, much like religion and economics.

National patriotism is a religion which worships dirt.

PersnickityPenguin ,

This guy gets it.

Passerby6497 ,

If no one believes or identifies with a nation, that nation will cease to exist.

Don't threaten me with a good time

HawlSera ,

It's almost like if you have to keep telling yourself that you live in a free country, you probably don't.

capital ,

And we’ve had multiple lawsuits decide exactly that - you do not have to do it.

Anti_Iridium ,

With this court, all bets are off though.

MonkderDritte ,

Only to the flag?

edgemaster72 ,
@edgemaster72@lemmy.world avatar

and to the republic for which it stands

Emerald ,

Which makes a lot more sense then pledging alleigance to the cheap sheet of flexible plastic in the classroom

IMongoose ,

The pledge was invented by a flag salesman. So the cheap flag in every classroom is the point.

match ,
@match@pawb.social avatar

I would love to believe this but i can't find any evidence. Do you have a source?

rekorse , (edited )

People keep linkin to Francis Bellamy's Wikipedia as source for this. Haven't read it myself yet. Seems more likely that they capitalized after creation, when they realized some money could be made.

Can't imagine theres tons of money in flags but who knows.

match ,
@match@pawb.social avatar

Neat. He was a flag salesman and a Christian socialist.

MonkderDritte ,

Why would you teach children to do that?

secret300 ,

I remember when 1 student in my class said she wasn't doing the pledge and the teacher said something along the lines of "it's a free country so you don't have to" almost no one did from that point on.

ThatWeirdGuy1001 ,
@ThatWeirdGuy1001@lemmy.world avatar

I was made to sing the national anthem in front of my whole class

obinice ,
@obinice@lemmy.world avatar

Such a creepy thing, getting children to chant in devotion to a state flag in schools.

It's the sort of thing they probably do in places like NK, or the Third Reich, you don't expect it to come from a supposedly modern, non imperialist nationalistic nation, ya know? :-(

essteeyou ,

I'm from the UK, my wife is from Singapore, and our son was born in the US. I really don't think it's appropriate to force him to pledge allegiance to the US, because he has strong ties to other countries. It feels like brainwashing.

deadbeef79000 ,

It is brain washing.

Where I'm from children sing the national anthem once a week at the school assembly and usually a few other songs too.

There are typically no flags.

stiephelando ,

Germany: we sang the anthem about once a year if even.

TheFriar ,

But that wasn’t always the case, now was it

stiephelando ,

That's the reason we stopped doing that

TheFriar , (edited )

Well we defeated that ideology! And then wrapped it in red white and blue and made it our own! so take that!

^please^ ^help^ ^us^

^maybe^ ^you^ ^guys^ ^can^ ^invade^ ^us^ ^this^ ^time?^

^also,^ ^it^ ^was^ ^kinda^ ^the^ ^russians^ ^more^ ^than^ ^us…^

uis ,
@uis@lemm.ee avatar

Not russians, soviet people. Well, russians too, but also ukrainians, belarusians/belorussians, armenians, georgians, long list of other nationalities that now their own states and even longer list of nationalities without one.

uis ,
@uis@lemm.ee avatar

This is one if even two a year episodes of listening to anthem less, but if even once a year more singing than Russia. Kinda better, but not that much in this regard.

uis ,
@uis@lemm.ee avatar

Singing once a week vs listening twice a year like in Russia. Please fix. Don't be worse than Russia.

deadbeef79000 , (edited )

It raises my heckles and annoys the shit out of me. It's not the hill I'll die on though.

It's also a dreadful dirge, which in recent years has been "jazzed up" and now it is even more grating to he ears, as well as nationalist B/S.

It's also sung indigenous language version first then English which riles up the racists so it has it's upsides.

brsrklf , (edited )

Your anthem is a dreadful dirge you say, is it also a bloody war chant too?

Because ours, in the first part that everybody knows, has enemy soldiers slitting the throat of our spouse and children as we hold them, and us taking arms so our fields are watered with impure blood. Then, many more verses about foreigners coming to enslave us and the need to fight to the death.

Also a nice, hopeful late addition in which our children have to vow over our crumbled remains that they will avenge our deaths or follow us in the tomb.

At least they don't require that kids sing it in school though.

MeanEYE ,
@MeanEYE@lemmy.world avatar

I don't think they can force you. There was even a legal case I think.

BrokenGlepnir ,

I'm sure it will be over turned soon. Precident and clear readings of the US constitution don't matter much nowadays.

apfelwoiSchoppen ,
@apfelwoiSchoppen@lemmy.world avatar

And we (the US) do it for soooo many public events for no reason! I was running in a marathon in Arkansas once where the host said that if anyone kneels during the anthem he will come and make them stand up. I just walked out after this and came back when the race started. There is only one reason: jingoism.

ShortFuse , (edited )

The irony is it was ruled based on freedom of religion, primarily.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_State_Board_of_Education_v._Barnette

Tryptaminev ,

They can't force you, but teachers can decide that your behaviour in class is uncooperative and your answers are bad, so you should get bad grades. Teachers can decide that when you report you have been beaten up by the Nazi gang in school that you are probably making it up as you are always looking for attention and making yourself be special.

Trainguyrom ,

When I was in school the pledge was always preceded by the statement "we live in a nation of freedom, participation in the pledge of voluntary. Those who wish to participate please stand, other may remain seated and quiet"

I remember when it first dawned on me how creepy the pledge is I began to sit and one teacher was like "what are you doing? You have to stand up!" so I explained that it seems creepy, and quoted the statement they always precede the pledge by and the teacher replied "oh I never thought about that" and left me alone from then on on the subject

AngryCommieKender , (edited )

I hope you don't live in one of these 46-47 states.

https://thehill.com/homenews/3256719-47-states-require-the-pledge-of-allegiance-be-recited-in-schools-here-is-a-breakdown-of-each-states-laws/

rekorse ,

Stop posting nonsense, its settled law that you can't force people to say the pledge.

valkyre09 ,

I live in Ireland, we had an American teacher visit our school for a year. She taught us the pledge, it stands out as one of the stranger memories of my childhood. That and her repeated “they didn’t want bush any more, they wanted Clinton”. Which should give you some sort of hint of how long ago this was.

Kecessa , (edited )

She taught you guys the pledge to the US flag or at least made it about the flag of Ireland?

valkyre09 ,

Taught us the US pledge. I don’t remember there actually being a flag in the room, but it was a good 30 years ago

brsrklf , (edited )

In French schools that kind of indoctrination would be immediately likened to the Nazi-empowered Vichy government in the 40s.

But you know, the grandchildren of those have brainwashed enough people that they're already seeing themselves in power right now, so maybe we'll get that again soon, and a lot worse?

French people, vote today. Please.

AngryCommieKender ,

I really hope you guys avoid the far right government that we keep hearing Marine Lepen is trying to install. The one upside I can see is that she will hopefully scare the shit out of some moderates in the US so we avoid Trump

brsrklf ,

Results are (mostly) in, far right is way too high but still third, behind the left and presidential alliances. Worrying for the future but it could have been worse.

Some of the far right candidates had already called for "not accepting the result of the election if they lose". I am sure you can draw some parallels...

uis ,
@uis@lemm.ee avatar

French people, please do your national sport: revolution.

brsrklf , (edited )

We need a new constitution, badly. One that gives more power to the parliament, and less to the president. The current constitution is De Gaulle's creature, it was tailor made for him and simply doesn't represent people in today's political map.

The fact people don't feel their vote matters anymore is one of the main reasons far right is so strong right now. Macron has been elected with less than 28% of expressed votes on first turn of the election, yet he basically runs the place.

Changing constitution is actually in the left wing alliance's program. Except they want to do it democratically, by being elected into power, not through a revolution.

uis ,
@uis@lemm.ee avatar

Except they want to do it democratically, by being elected into power, not through a revolution.

The world has changed. Even France doesn't want revolution.

Roflmasterbigpimp ,
@Roflmasterbigpimp@lemmy.world avatar

I said it once, I say it again. Why the Flag? I don't get it. Why not the Constitution? The Flag changed so many Times in US history.

Is there an actual reason or just because the flag is a more visual Token for loyalty?

lath ,

Dunno for US, but in some monarchies, the flag was carried around by representatives who delivered the will of the king/queen/emperor/etc.
So seeing the flag was the same as seeing the ruler in person.
Symbolism I guess.

Roflmasterbigpimp ,
@Roflmasterbigpimp@lemmy.world avatar

Could be 🤔

Maybe I'm gonna find out who started this and if he had any motive at all to pick the Flag 🤔

masquenox ,

Why the Flag? I don’t get it. Why not the Constitution?

Yes... why worship a piece of colored fabric and when you can worship a piece of paper with scribbles on it instead?

Roflmasterbigpimp ,
@Roflmasterbigpimp@lemmy.world avatar

Yeah I get that it is a symbol but like I said, the Flag changed often and I would have guessed that the Constitution would be a better Symbol.

But idk tho, I'm just some prick from Europe ¯⁠\⁠⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠⁠/⁠¯

Tryptaminev ,

The constitution is still the constitution, when you read it from a website. It is still the constitution, when it is read out loud. It is the text and interpretation that matters.

So in terms of pledges it is the least troublesome symbol.

masquenox ,

Allow me to rephrase, then.

Why worship a piece of colored fabric and when you can worship a piece of paper that literally institutionalizes the practice of slavery instead of abolishing it?

I guess that's just not "troublesome" enough for the average white liberal, eh?

Tryptaminev ,

Oh i absolutely agree that it is bullshit. In principle a constitution however is a reasonable thing for pledges. Politicians, judges, military and the like pledging to uphold and protect their countries constitution is a good thing. (Now whether they actually do that is another question.)

Pat_Riot ,
@Pat_Riot@lemmy.today avatar

It fits the rhythm, the cadence better. Makes it easier to remember and recite.

What is strange to me is while you're made to repeat the pledge every day as a child in school, the practice is not carried into adult life at all. We hear the national anthem at every sporting event (not that I go to sporting events), but I can't think of a single time I was expected to pledge allegiance as an adult.

warbond ,

I think it's because the people who made the pledge were just trying to sell flags. "A flag in every classroom" or something to that effect. So, once again, the answer is capitalism.

Emerald ,

The pledge was just made by flag companies to sell more flags guys

rekorse ,

You dont think someone made money off of this?

nednobbins ,

The visual qualities are exactly the point.

If you wave around the constitution, it's indistinguishable from some random bits of parchment. Most people can recognize their flag, even when it's flapping around and next to similar flags. Humans are just very visual creatures.

In either case, the pledge isn't actually to the object itself but to the country represented by that object.

The problem we have in the US is that Old Glory is commonly used to represent some particular group's vision of what the US should be rather than a symbol of the country as a whole. When that sort of change is broadly positive, such as when it started to become a symbol of American ingenuity in space, it's easy for everyone to rally behind. When it starts to symbolize a message like, "We should give the police unrestrained power." it becomes more divisive.

rekorse ,

Bullshit, I instantly could picture the declaration of independence, it is not a crazy symbol to use as noone has 400 year old parchment lieing around anymore.

I think theres an argument over which would be a more appropriate symbol but personally I think the nationalism stuff to be silly when theres not much the US has done to be proud of.

I'm proud of our younger generations. Do they have a flag?

lath ,

In post-communist eastern Europe it was common to reinforce the nationalistic sentiment in schools to try and erase the Soviet/Russian influence in case of a posible future separatist movement from within.

volodya_ilich ,

Interesting, can you provide any read on that?

lath ,

Obviously not.

But here's an Ukraine read that might be used as an example for or against what I said above.
http://litopys.org.ua/polpost/e1a2.htm

volodya_ilich ,

Ok, that looks like an interesting read, thanks mate!

masquenox ,

Such a creepy thing, getting children to chant in devotion to a state flag in schools.

Apparently, schools will have to display the ten commandments in classrooms, which means all the kiddies with functional brains get to wonder why chanting to a piece of colored fabric isn't considered worshipping a false idol.

Also, all the military recruiters will get to awkwardly explain the whole "thou shallt not kill" thing...

AeonFelis ,

all the kiddies with functional brains

It is the job of the education system to root out these potential future threats to social order.

Tryptaminev ,

If you take a look at pre 1943 US, you might see some inspirations for Hitler there.

https://lemm.ee/pictrs/image/15999ac3-836f-4b3e-8d3c-e588bc57de20.png

https://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2012/09/11/160936717/politics-the-pledge-and-a-peculiar-history

ShortFuse , (edited )

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/375db078-e2bb-48b0-aab4-074ebe9c17cc.jpeg

The Bellamy Salute was pretty much the same. The Pledge of Allegiance was done with it. It was changed to the hand over heart style in 1942.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellamy_salute

Holzkohlen ,

Good call there

pantyhosewimp ,

I know what you meant by “state flag” but I want to be cheeky, so here goes:

We didn’t pledge to a state flag but the federal flag. But the state of Maryland has a fabulous flag, and I’m still devoted to its design all these years later.

For whatever reason, in the 70s, in Maryland, I only recall pledging allegiance in the morning at the start of school during first grade. I don’t think we did it past second grade. In any case, I took the opportunity to insert curse words. I would say it like, “I pledge allegiance to the shit, and to the asshole for which it shits.” I didn’t lower my voice either. I just figured that I would never be noticed. Thinking back, I am surmising that my teacher must have noticed at least once but just ignored it.

PlantDadManGuy ,

You sound like a CGP Grey enthusiast https://m.youtube.com/@CGPGrey

odium ,

All public schools pledge allegiance to both state and federal flags in Texas.

duderium2 ,

[Thread, post or comment was deleted by the moderator]

    •
    uis ,
    @uis@lemm.ee avatar

    Such a creepy thing, getting children to chant in devotion to a state flag in schools.

    Even in Russia kids don't chant in devotion to a state flag in schools. America, please fix your schools.

    FiniteBanjo ,

    Even worse, some versions of the pledge make you swear "under god" which is fucked up. Christian Nationalists are what is destroying america.

    Senseless ,

    Christian NationalistsReligious fundamentalists are what is destroying america everything

    FDFY

    FiniteBanjo , (edited )

    It's not that I disagree, but it seems like a very separate statement with very little connection to the main topic of this discussion.

    We have a very specific and very pressing issue in the USA that deserves more focus than your broad global stroke.

    Metz ,

    You think backward-looking, misogynistic religious nationalist nutjobs trying to seize power are a specifically US problem?

    volodya_ilich ,

    For the most part, yes, it's a problem either within the US, or sponsored/caused by the US. Afghanistan, Israel, US, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Emirates...

    FiniteBanjo ,

    No, I think they're a specific problem in the USA, not to the USA or from the USA.

    deadbeef79000 , (edited )

    Good How can there be different versions of the pledge? Is it that each state technically has their own pledge?

    TragicNotCute ,
    @TragicNotCute@lemmy.world avatar

    Under god is part of the pledge from my understanding. Beyond that, other states do have their own pledges.

    Trainguyrom ,

    The "under god" portion was added in the 50s or 60s, same with adding "in god we trust" to all currency

    AngryCommieKender ,

    We added "under God" to the pledge in the 50s or 60s. At the same time we put "In God We Trust," on the dollar. We were differentiating against the USSR which was an atheist state.

    FiniteBanjo ,

    If you were expecting me to play google and give you a rundown on pledge of allegiance modern history, I'm afraid you've hit a dead end.

    masquenox ,

    Christian Nationalists are what is destroying america.

    So it's not all bad news, then.

    Emerald ,

    Indivisible is the funniest part to me though. It's like saying the Titanic is unsinkable

    pineapplelover ,

    Yeah, you can thank Eisenhower for that. Didn't use to be like that. I usually pause at that point or idk maybe say under Satan.

    https://www.history.com/news/pledge-allegiance-under-god-schools

    chemical_cutthroat , (edited )
    @chemical_cutthroat@lemmy.world avatar

    I pledge Ally Sheedy to the slag
    Of the United Skates of Emilio
    And to the repugnant
    for Richard Stanz
    One naked undergarment
    Invisible man
    With Liberace and puffed rice for all.

    Speculater ,
    @Speculater@lemmy.world avatar

    Ra-men

    Hyphlosion ,
    @Hyphlosion@donphan.social avatar

    “naked undergarment”

    Never heard that oxymoron before.

    nikita ,

    For real though, what happens if you don’t say the words?

    ShinkanTrain ,

    Your parents get death threats

    Takumidesh ,

    When I was in school, generally nothing, the teacher might bother you about it, but they for the most part don't care and would rather move on with the day.

    Sometimes kids parents would devise a reason to exclude their kid, but it was effectively optional, though generally encouraged.

    NaibofTabr , (edited )

    The First Ammendemnt protects your right to not participate in reciting the pledge of allegiance:

    In 2006, in the Florida case Frazier v. Alexandre, a federal district court in Florida ruled that a 1942 state law requiring students to stand and recite the Pledge of Allegiance violates the First and Fourteenth Amendments of the U.S. Constitution. As a result of that decision, a Florida school district was ordered to pay $32,500 to a student who chose not to say the pledge and was ridiculed and called "unpatriotic" by a teacher.

    In 2009, a Montgomery County, Maryland, teacher berated and had school police remove a 13-year-old girl who refused to say the Pledge of Allegiance in the classroom. The student's mother, assisted by the American Civil Liberties Union of Maryland, sought and received an apology from the teacher, as state law and the school's student handbook both prohibit students from being forced to recite the Pledge.
    reference

    You might suffer some immediate consequences from ignorant people, but courts have repeatedly upheld that this is protected by the First Amendment. Even the current Supreme Court would have a hard time justifying overturning this precedent.

    You could even argue that choosing not to participate is a highly patriotic act, as an exercise of your Constitutional rights as a citizen.

    JusticeForPorygon ,
    @JusticeForPorygon@lemmy.world avatar

    There's always that one teacher...

    Or at least there was in my case

    Anti_Face_Weapon ,

    If a teacher punishes you then they are violating you're enumerated constitutional rights. You could litterally sue them or the school administration and you could get money.

    FuglyDuck ,
    @FuglyDuck@lemmy.world avatar

    Kids don’t know that though. The k ly way it gets found out is if it escalates enough to involve the parents

    Objection ,
    @Objection@lemmy.ml avatar

    If you can afford to go to court and if you have proof.

    JusticeForPorygon ,
    @JusticeForPorygon@lemmy.world avatar

    Lotta people seem to miss this part

    Anti_Face_Weapon ,

    The classroom full of witnesses?

    There are many lawyers who would take a case like this without up front payment in exchange for a portion of the settlement.

    Anti_Face_Weapon ,

    I've always viewed not participating to be patriotic. You are under no obligation to provide oaths to this country, and refusing to do so under peer pressure is can be an act of patriotism.

    FlyingSquid ,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    I got fucking nuclear on my daughter's 6th grade permanent "substitute" teacher for taking my daughter out in the hallway and lecturing her when she refused to say the pledge. I didn't prompt my daughter to not say the pledge, she just decided not to because, in her words at the time, "it's stupid to say a pledge to a flag." And my daughter is not one who is easy to get to do something she thinks is incredibly stupid. Sent her multiple links about West Virginia v. Barnette and the like.

    She apologized to me (not my daughter) and also lied that taking her into the hall and giving her a private talk wasn't a punishment, but my daughter didn't have to say the pledge anymore. She told me other kids also refused to once she did, but whether that means one or ten, I don't know.

    As for that teacher, I found out after the school year was over that she was telling the kids that Trump really won the 2020 election and it was all a big hoax. I would have once again gone nuclear, that time at the school system, but she had already quit for a job at a private Christian school.

    By the way, this woman's previous teaching credentials were "running a children's theater." Indiana sucks.

    match ,
    @match@pawb.social avatar

    The massive exodus of teaching staff sucks

    FlyingSquid ,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    I wish I could blame them, but I can't. Between this state's bigoted and draconian policies about what teachers can and can't say and the ridiculously low pay, I wouldn't stick around either.

    Indiana does have the Indiana Connections Academy, which is an online public school where accredited teachers give instruction vie videoconference (and private chat if necessary). My daughter is in it and doing really well. Since it's a public school, we don't have to pay for her to go, but I did have to stop working in order to put her through it because it requires an adult to be a "learning coach" to keep your kid on track.

    We put her in it for other reasons, but the difference in education quality is like night and day. I'm sure in no small part because the teachers are paid well. Or well for Indiana anyway.

    Unfortunately, the program is run by Pierson, and they're evil, but all the kids are using Pierson textbooks in public schools anyway since Pierson has a near monopoly.

    itsgroundhogdayagain ,

    Let's be honest, the whole thing has always been a little weird.

    Ephera ,

    I'm German and learned about this via a friend from the US. When they mentioned it, I thought their teacher was a lunatic. Then they told me that this is normal course of action. Just what in the absolute fuck.

    Glowstick , (edited )

    It depends on where and when in the US. In areas that are Democratic (the more liberal party) it doesn't really happen much anymore, but in areas that are Republican (the more conservative party) it still happens at the start of every single school day.

    And the custom of doing this was started by a salesman trying to sell flags and magazine subscriptions. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Bellamy#Pledge_of_Allegiance

    JusticeForPorygon , (edited )
    @JusticeForPorygon@lemmy.world avatar

    It's state law where I live IIRC. They force you to say it, because of legal precedent, but the school can apparently get in trouble with the state if they don't say it at the start of the day.

    It was always funny when we'd all stand up and only the teachers and maybe three students would say it.

    ripcord ,
    @ripcord@lemmy.world avatar

    Might want to proofread that second sentence

    JusticeForPorygon ,
    @JusticeForPorygon@lemmy.world avatar

    Thanks lol

    Ephera ,

    They really make it too easy to draw the parallels:
    Photograph of school kids in 1941 performing what looks like a Hitler salute, except towards a US flag.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellamy_salute

    errer ,

    I mean that’s just an unfortunate coincidence given it predated the rise of naziism.

    Ephera ,

    Oh yeah, it definitely is in that sense. The point is that patriotism is hard to discern from facism. That they happened to use the same symbol here is just a good illustration of that. Ultimately, the Hitler Salute also started out as a symbol of patriotism before it all turned to genocide.

    RecluseRamble , (edited )

    Yes. It's far more than "a little weird". It's how you breed nationalists.

    match ,
    @match@pawb.social avatar

    it's how some suit with no research thinks you breed nationalists

    lseif ,

    well apparently it's working...

    SlopppyEngineer ,

    USA hasn't run into the consequences of nationalism hard enough yet when it backfires.

    Bread ,

    I am not looking forward to the find out stage of all this fucking around.

    rekorse ,

    Everyone forgets the 90s and Timothy McVeigh so quickly.

    I bet some people dont even know that was nationalism.

    acosmichippo ,
    @acosmichippo@lemmy.world avatar

    it’s an anachronism from the red scare in the 50’s.

    bionicjoey ,

    An anachronism because there aren't still powerful forces in America trying to witch hunt people with left-leaning ideas?

    lugal ,

    C'mon, don't be ridiculous! If the US was so anti left, Sanders would never make it to become president! We don't want to live in the timeline where the Republicans won the 2016 election because the Democrats didn't dare to send Sanders because he's too far left.

    Juvyn00b ,

    My wife used to work for a company that had a morning stand up and daily affirmation. I told her it sounded like she was in a cult. She agreed.

    SOB_Van_Owen ,

    Growing up, for a time my folks were way into the evangelical thing and I attended a totally batshit religious school where we recited 3 pledges back-to-back every morning. To the U.S. flag, the Christian flag and the Bible. Then had to recite entire chapters of the Bible we had per force committed to memory that week. Failure to do so was grounds for savage corporal punishment. No other experience in life so inoculated me against authoritarianism and organized religion. It also let me know at that tender age that sadists existed.

    odium ,

    In Texas, all public schools do two pledges. One to the US and one to Texas.

    NegativeInf ,

    In high school like 15 years ago we not only had the regular pledge, we had to pledge to the Texas state flag. Which you hold out your hand like you are holding something?

    "Honor the Texas flag; I pledge allegiance to thee, Texas, one state under God, one and indivisible."

    It's all hot garbage and unquestioning nationalism. The good bit was, only one teacher ever gave me flack for sitting out the pledge with my little emo ass. And that was my ultra conservative AP US Government teacher. And he was just a nut ball. But when I framed it as my freedom he chilled.

    He was still wrong about flat taxes not being regressive!

    acosmichippo , (edited )
    @acosmichippo@lemmy.world avatar

    but how can you pledge allegiance to two separate entities?

    scenario A: if texas ever attempted secession then you’d have to break one of your pledges.

    scenario B: Texas always remains loyal to the US, which makes the texas pledge superfluous. you pledged allegiance to the US which includes texas.

    NegativeInf ,

    It's to incept the idea of secession into little kids head's. Paint Texas as self sufficient and not dependent at all. Then make em want to leave.

    I hate this state, but if all the liberals leave, it will only get worse for the next set of young people born here.

    Alexstarfire ,

    https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/d6e881c6-9faa-4404-aa8d-84f962e8a9ec.gif

    TexasDrunk ,

    That's so weird to me. I grew up in an area of Texas that is very red today. We quit both pledges in the 3rd or 4th grade. It's weird that we did it at all, but that was back when they also taught that freedom of the individual was super important and if you didn't like what someone else was doing you could always just look away because it wasn't your fucking business. So they didn't make us do it at a certain point because it was counter to the other shit they said. That was in the years leading up to Ann Richards being voted as governor so that may inform outsiders of what was happening at the time.

    There's a lot of problematic shit that happened when I was a kid. Don't get me wrong. But at least they seemed to be headed the right direction at the time with the info we had (that's a whole other ball of garbage that I'm not picking at today...ask me another time when it's not 3am). I had forgotten about both pledges as an adult until someone reminded me a few years ago that it was a thing.

    Texas has gotten way more idiotic over the last 30 odd years.

    SorteKanin ,
    @SorteKanin@feddit.dk avatar

    A little weird?

    Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In ,

    It gets weirder

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