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rekabis ,

A woman’s cycle varies between 15 and 45 days, averaging 28.1 days, but with a standard deviation of 3.95 days. That’s a hell of a lot of variability from one woman to the next. And the same variability can be experienced by a large minority of women from one period to the next, and among nearly all women across the course of their fertile years.

On the other hand, the moon’s cycle (as seen from Earth) takes 27 days, 7 hours, and 43 minutes to pass through all of its phases. And it does so like clockwork, century after century.

Of the two, I am finding the second to have a much stronger likelihood of being the reasoning behind the notches.

Strange how gender-bigotry style historical revisionism and gender exceptionalism seems to get a wholly uncritical and credulous pass when it’s not done by a man.

Seasoned_Greetings , (edited )

While I agree with you that the teacher in this post is wrong about what this is, I don't think labeling "gender bigotry" indiscriminately as something both sexes do under one umbrella is accomplishing anything but minimizing the struggle women have endured for basically all of human existence up until the last few decades.

Personally, I wouldn't fault this woman for thinking what she does if she's willing to accept a broader explanation later, given that women have literally been sold as property up until a couple hundred years ago.

Women have the right to at least posit the ways they as a group have been held down, and that includes accepting their indignation and allowing them grace for when they're wrong, because without those things they won't actually learn the truth.

Further than that, I think it's necessary for women learning now to have the same realization this one did that women throughout all of history save for this recent tiny sliver have been oppressed. Even if it's built on an incidentally faulty premise, that doesn't mean the realization itself is wrong.

Covering up the discourse by labeling the process of realization as "gender bigotry" is itself an attempt at erasure, and very much puts you on the side of the oppressors, just because you think it's distasteful to have this realization yourself.

I'm sure gender bigotry exists in the direction of women towards men. This ain't it.

reric88 ,
@reric88@beehaw.org avatar

The gender-bigotry comes from the "what man needs to mark 28 days?" There's snark behind the comment, and it's unnecessary. That said, a woman could be just as likely as a man to mark moon phases. But saying "man" doesn't mean "male" when talking about us as a species from my understanding. Seems like a broader term to use which includes the entirety of the homo-whatevers.

I'm just some guy here and am not educated in this stuff, though!

bouh ,

So you're arguing that people would have more use to write moon cycles than women cycles?
And you talk about bigotry?!

SqueakyBeaver ,
@SqueakyBeaver@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

I doubt the teacher really believed this, and they were likely striving to just open their students' minds to the idea that most innovations are probably assumed to be made by men

AstridWipenaugh ,

The point would be a lot more impactful if they didn't make up a story to support their position.

WldFyre ,

This is a class on anthropology, the point was to challenge the assumptions made when interpreting artifacts/history with little context. No one made anything up lol

rekabis ,

Why not use a real and confirmed example, then? Because they do exist.

Making a story up - such that it can be actively undermined - certainly does the job poorly at best, and actively hurts the objective at worst.

ChexMax ,

Other than tides, why do you need to know when the next full moon is? And can't you just look at the moon and see how close it is waning to the full moon?

Not saying the calendar is definitely a woman's, but wanting to know when you're going to start leaking blood onto everything near you seems like a good reason to track a period. Plenty of women are regular like clockwork, I was at 26 days almost exactly for years.

KredeSeraf ,

If you start to notice one thing happens pretty regularly and another thing happens regularly but on a larger scale... Say the monthly moon phases and the seasons, you can use the more frequent one to roughly track the less frequent one.

takeheart ,

There's both practical and more spiritual/philosophical reasons for this.

Before artificial light sources, especially electrical ones, moon light let people stay productive longer whilst outside. This was especially important for comunal activities like hunting, harvests or celebrations too. Keeping track of moon cycles is thus valuable for preparation in scheduling. And once you do that it can also be used to organize other social events around that. Similar to how our modern calendars and schedules are built around important fixed events.

The moon and sun as celestial bodies also gained prominent religious and mystical significance in ancient cultures. Remember that people didn't actually know what the moon or sun were in the modern scientific sense. But for some strange reason these mystical glowing disks on which people were so reliant kept rising with unerring synchronicity. The inquiry into the movements on the firmament lead many a civilization down the paths of observation, record keeping and math too.

kromem ,

Yep. A bit like a 7 day publicly displayed tracker of days on a 28 day lunar calendar cycle.

Was "I am the God of your Father" an editorial attempt to distinguish the deity from the gods of Egypt, or from the god of a Mother?

There's some pretty odd details in that book, like in Isaac's supposed patriarchal blessing which discussed "the sons of your mother bow down to you" or it being the only place there's the male form of gebirah ("Great Lady") - a title first applied in the text to Isaac's mother whose name is based on the word for 'chief.' Who is supposedly later followed by a figure 'Deborah' ('bee') who is a leader of the people around the time we now know bees were being imported into Tel Rehov and regularly requeened to avoid genetic drift with local bee populations. Also weird that the events regarding a "land of milk and honey" supposedly take place in a land with no honey and only one discovered apiary.

That apiary gets burned down right around the time Asa allegedly deposed his grandmother the gebirah ("Great Lady").

mister_monster ,

I keep track of my girlfriend's ovulation because she can't be bothered to do it. I don't want her to get pregnant either. Just pointing that out.

ChexMax ,

I hear you but it's far more likely for a woman to track her own period than for a nearby man to track it. You're the reason this professor felt the need to give this example. Because men assume all progress and intellectual pursuits were obviously sought by men. You guys think it's the automatic default, and even the suggestion that a woman might have accomplished something is met with, "hey! It could have been a man!"

crapwittyname ,

There's some faulty reasoning here.
Parent comment challenges the assumption that the marks were made by a female, and you say "you're the reason the professor felt the need to give this example", although the example was given in order to challenge assumptions of gender.
OP is actually learning from the example if anything, since they are challenging gender assumptions.
On top of that, your use of "you guys", and your generalisations about men are evidence of the exact type of biased thinking this example is trying to challenge.

Zehzin ,
@Zehzin@lemmy.world avatar

For some reason I thought they meant they carved the calendar on their own bone and thought "damn that's metal af".

Anyway, don't farmers also need to tell the date? Was this bone from before we started doing that?

iAvicenna ,
@iAvicenna@lemmy.world avatar

this proves metal has existed since the dawn of man! enter Miocene epoch heavy metal

fishbone ,

First off: Everyone who played the historical documentary Brutal Legend knows that metal was a gift from the gods.

Second: Miocene epoch heavy metal is my favorite genre!

feedum_sneedson ,

yeah, that sounds like an anthropology professor

LemmyKnowsBest ,

I'm a woman and I have never needed to chart 28 days.

that screenshot up there reads like some academic person with too much time on their hands trying too hard to congratulate themselves for solving some anthropological mystery.

astreus ,

Yeah, I don't get it either. Weren't most, if not all, ancient calendars lunar based? Far easier to work out a 28 day cycle than a 365.25 day cycle.

workerONE ,

But since before you were born people knew how long a woman's menstrual cycle lasts. Most likely the Internet existed when you became an adult and thought about measuring things. The society you lived in had existing calendars that you were aware of if/when you had a menstrual cycle. You've never needed to "chart 28 days" but someone who lived long long ago may have wondered and they would have had no frame of reference so they decided to count.

Gabu ,

Sandi is a comedian and presenter of UK show QI, not a researcher. She's literally just talking about an epiphany.

LemmyKnowsBest ,

"When I was a student at Cambridge..."

Gabu ,

Believe it or not, in civilized countries it's common for people to get higher education for the sake of education.

Her predecessor on QI, mr. Stephen Fry, was also an OxBridge fellow – known as one of Britain's greatest comedians.

Quastamaza ,

This is a refreshing comment, if any. Especially coming from a woman. Thank you.

merc ,

I’m a woman and I have never needed to chart 28 days.

Is this because you don't care when your next period is? Or because you don't need to record it to remember it?

I can imagine a modern woman might not care if she always has menstrual products on hand or nearby. But, it might have been more meaningful in ancient times when there might have been more taboos associated with menstruation, plus it might have been more important to know as part of family planning. And, it might have been much less convenient to carry around whatever was needed to handle menstruation.

Also, in a modern world where calendars are everywhere, I can imagine someone might say "ok, so my next period will be in early July". But, there was a time when days and months were not tracked, or were only tracked by priests, etc. In that kind of situation, I could imagine it might be useful to count the days until the next period was expected. On the other hand, a primitive society probably spends a lot more time outdoors and sees the moon a lot more often, so it might be just as easy to go "ok, so my next period will be when the moon's 3/4 full".

28 notches means that the bone had 29 sections, which more closely matches a lunar month than a typical menstrual period. But, I could see it being used either way.

jackpot ,
@jackpot@lemmy.ml avatar

i think they mean 'man' as in 'mankind'. also any ideas why would they carve it into bone and not bark or something more flat?

Rowan ,

Likely durability and portability. Think of it as something they use month over month and just mark the day with something like a string band. Bone would be light enough to keep with you, strong enough to not break, and common enough to be available for household use.

TokenBoomer ,

Whoosh.

dangblingus ,

It seems pretty clear that they mean "male" as they follow the mention of "man" up with "woman".

jackpot ,
@jackpot@lemmy.ml avatar

no i mean, by the people 'who consider it'. i think the speaksr didnt understand that theyre saying it's mankind others are talkint abkut

Rodeo ,

Oh but the word mankind in itself overlooks women. We're all supposed to be saying humankind now.

jackpot ,
@jackpot@lemmy.ml avatar

etymologically speaking im not even sure if thats right. i heard somethibg like this and they either said woman doesnt derive from man or that man used to mean woman and man but woman became its own thing, cant recall

John_McMurray ,

"man" in the contexts not directly related to being a male, means human. "Man" used to have a prefix vaguely pronounced "were" and "woman" used to be "wifman". Female werewolf would be a "wifwolf" then. So anyways, "Man" never changed it's meaning, it really just gained an additional one, and yet again, whiners need to read a book.

John_McMurray ,

nah. it's a double entendre.

PM_Your_Nudes_Please ,

Likely durability. A bone and a stick can both be thrown into a bag and carried with you, but a bone is much more durable than a stick. It’ll be less likely to break or wear down as it rubs against everything else in your bag.

feedum_sneedson ,

What about blackthorn wood versus chicken bone? What's it like being wrong on the internet, champ. Adding this one to my scoreboard (dry-wipe, wall-mounted, magnetic).

NikkiDimes ,

Do you mean dry erase?

DAMunzy ,

🎤 💧

feedum_sneedson ,

Yes I do, the terms are interchangeable here.

LodeMike ,

They probably did but only the bone survived time

jackpot ,
@jackpot@lemmy.ml avatar

ahh survivorship bias thats it thanks

LodeMike ,

Always remember to check for survivorship bias. It's the most fundamental way to lie with statistics.

survivalmachine , (edited )

Sure, you can say "man" means "mankind", but when you use gendered language like that, most people picture a couple of caveMEN sitting around a fire carving bones rather than caveHUMANS (edited -- I think it would benefit us to picture all genders around this hypothetical fire). Even though we try to use gendered language in a neutral way, listeners will often perceive the language in a gendered way.

bane_killgrind ,

Cave humans

survivalmachine ,

Thank you <3

Juno ,

Just FYI the origin of "woman" is "wife-man" which (forgive if I do these slightly out of order) was "wyfe-man" to "wife-man" to "wieman" to woman 👩

The misogyny is built into the language. Or the common word used originates from "wife of man"

Paraphrased source Websters word origins

Drusas ,

"Man" also means "humankind". In fact, it was originally a gender-neutral word.

https://www.etymonline.com/word/man

survivalmachine ,

Yes, I know. I explained that. That doesn't change perception.

jackpot ,
@jackpot@lemmy.ml avatar

this is it tjank you

usualsuspect191 ,

Cave humans hupeople

survivalmachine ,

No

BCsven ,

Do they, or is it just men that think that? While women might think of their own gender around a fire, and assume either gender/ non-gendered

endhits ,

That's exactly what is meant, but they have to find something to complain about

FoolishFool ,

I'm guessing the implication is they were tracking their period?

Ghyste ,

This isn't a meme...

TokenBoomer ,

Are you Richard Dawkins?

GeneralEmergency ,

I am sure the comments on this meme community post in a niche social media site will not be filled with butthurt men's rights activists.

Sotuanduso ,
@Sotuanduso@lemm.ee avatar

You could have at least used the term "misogynist" so as to not imply that men's rights are a bad thing.

TurtleJoe ,
@TurtleJoe@lemmy.world avatar

Hey, we found one!

Not seriously, "men's rights activists" are a specific group of people that only exist to complain about and hate women. They don't care about men's rights, they are anti-feminists.

If you genuinely didn't know this, then I'd love to know what Internet rock You've been hiding under. If you're trying to concern troll, fuck off, MRAs are fucking scum.

-signed, a man.

Quastamaza ,

Feels good to go with the flow, doesn't it? And going for the audience's applause?
And while we're at it, what are "women's rights activists", then? The undisputed incarnation of everything that is right and good in the world, I suppose?

-signed, a man, like you.

WldFyre ,

signed, a man

You could have left this part off, it was perfectly clear you're a man

Quastamaza ,

Have my upvote!

Sotuanduso ,
@Sotuanduso@lemm.ee avatar

I've definitely heard of misogynists, and of misogynists disguising themselves as legitimate men's advocates, but I'd never heard of "men's rights activists" as a specific group of misogynists before this.

Without this explanation, had someone said "men's rights activists are misogynists," I would have thought they were a misandrist, because it sounds like a general descriptor and not a specific group.

So what do you call it when someone who's not a misogynist advocates for equal treatment in the areas where men get the short end of the stick?

candybrie ,

Generally, they're described as part of the men's liberation movement. The men's movement split decades ago into men's rights movement, which often comes at the issue from a more conservative premise that views feminism as going to far and eroding men's rights, and the men's liberation movement which generally is more liberal and wants to critically look at traditional masculinity and how those expectations may harm men.

Sotuanduso ,
@Sotuanduso@lemm.ee avatar

Hmm, intuition implies the inverse. I would have guessed men's liberation means "liberation from women" and thus misogyny. I guess unintuitive terminology is just the way things go.

happybadger ,
@happybadger@hexbear.net avatar

I similarly like that feminist theory of Venus statues. They aren't dummy thicc proto-porn but the perspective of someone who's pregnant looking down at their reflection in a river and cataloguing the most dangerous/important point of their life.

AlpineSteakHouse ,

It makes more sense for the former unfortunately.

The original theory was that it could have been a pregnant women looking down and that's what lead to the proportions. The idea was they wouldn't have been able to see themselves in a river or something. But rivers and puddles, not to mention OTHER pregnant women, were extremely common so it's less likely.

prettybunnys ,

I mean the lunar cycle is roughly 29 days with the argument that it’s 28 if you don’t count the new moon.

I realize this is a neat thought idea but it I think best demonstrates how easy it is to jump to conclusions.

Mr_Blott ,

I conclude the moon has a vaj

UrPartnerInCrime ,
@UrPartnerInCrime@sh.itjust.works avatar

Well duh, Sokka was trying to get all up in it

DharmaCurious ,
@DharmaCurious@startrek.website avatar

I just finished TLA. I'd never seen it, and now I have, and it's gone, and my life feels empty. Why would you bring this up? Why would you hurt me so?

Korra is good, but it doesn't hit the same, and 70 years is not enough to fully industrialize a society.

po-lina-ergi ,

70 years is not enough to fully industrialize a society

Russia, China

Also, I imagine industry in general becomes significantly easier when you have people that can summon construction projects out of the ground or weld with their bare hands.

Also, society isn't industrialised. One city state within society is industrialised.

Also, the fire nation was already undergoing industrialisation at the time of ATLA.

VindictiveJudge ,
@VindictiveJudge@lemmy.world avatar

Seriously, the Fire Nation had mass produced internal combustion engines in ATLA. They put them in their mass produced tanks. Not to mention the fleet of ships with smokestacks indicating they probably had either diesel or steam powered ships. The Earth Kingdom and Water Tribes are both still in the process of industrializing, but the Fire Nation was already pretty much there, and the United Republic is primarily a Fire Nation breakaway state.

JasonDJ ,

More than likely steam. Don’t need fuel to burn when when you can just make fire with magic. And we know people get employed for their bending ability since Mako got a job lightning-bending at the power plant.

Tingle ,

It's not magic, it's fire bending.

AWistfulNihilist ,

Look up the Meiji Restoration in Japan. They went from a feudal, near-medieval society to an industrial society between 1870 and 1920, by the time they were done they are participating in both world wars.

You actually don't have to suspend your disbelief so hard here, it's the most believable part of the story of people who can bend elements with tai chi

Trainguyrom ,

Even if you take a Western lens to it and say ATLA takes place around 1850 that still puts Korra in the 1920s (and the air nation falling around 1750) and the only thing that really would be innacurate for comparing their timeline to ours is the lack of trains connecting the cities, at least in the earth kingdom where theres a lot of land to be crossed.

I suppose if you assume that Ba Sing Sa is self-sufficient with it's large farms in the outermost ring then it makes sense from a tactical perspective to have fewer points of entry to the city. You'd also have to assume there's either significant brain-drain from the villages into the city or that the villages keep to themselves so much that they have no need for better transportation between them

I'm not finding any good sources right now but some of the earliest trains were actually a singular railcar on wooden rails pushed by 1-2 people in much the same manner that the trains in Ba Sing Sa do, just sans Earth bending of course

Trainguyrom ,

I over thought this a lot and the only conclusion I could come to is the earth nation should be covered in railway lines. Extremely shortly after some of the first viable self-propelled steam locomotives were invented the first railwaya were built, and within 50 years entire countries were covered in railway lines connecting the smallest towns both that existed before the railroads and many built by the railroads.

The existence of bending would only accelerate this development since right of way would be rapidly built through earth bending, and locomotives could simply have a closed system of water to be bent to produce propulsion. An earth bender could also spin a stone flywheel attached to gears to produce propulsion too. Or combine these with steam propulsion to overcome the limitations of early steam engines and the poorer iron and steel alloys of the time

VindictiveJudge ,
@VindictiveJudge@lemmy.world avatar

TLOK does depict a railway network having been set up through the Earth Kingdom after the war. The Earth Kingdom as a whole is still very far behind in industrialization, though.

daltotron ,

I think that most of the criticisms directed at the industrialization and mecha stuff is mostly just a byproduct of the worldbuilding in korra broadly not being very good. Not even necessarily bad a lot of the time, but just not as good as avatar.

Bending styles became more homogenized and choreography is worse, everything became a kind of 1920's hong kong steampunk, and lots of the city shots, there's basically nobody walking around. You have things like tasers and huge mechas, but huge mechas and tasers without explanations for how they're getting such dense energy storage, or circumventing some real world problems with those technologies in a 1920's context. With various forms of bending, you can kind of get around the energy density problem a little bit, since it's just straight up magic that seems like it violates conservation of energy, but with korra's stuff, that doesn't apply a lot of the time.

Lots of little things like that kinda give the impression that the world is made of paper mache, or that a lot of things are just kind of done because they're a cool idea, rather than because they're both a cool idea and make a little bit of sense. I'm not really opposed to the idea of a car in the setting, but it strikes me as quite a bit easier to power a car if you have a mobile human power plant that can produce large amounts of energy. I think it's also kind of a shame to disconnect the tech from this for a different reason, as well, and that's because it means that the bending is kind of, less broadly useful and applicable. It takes up less space in the setting, it has less utility, it's not as cool, and the show doesn't really end up giving many good replacements for it as time goes on.

That's really nitpicking, though. I think the broader point is just that there wasn't much done in the series to really show the continuity between ATLA and korra (do not mistake this for fanservice), and they really feel like different shows. Feels kind of like about a quarter of the reason why people didn't like the last jedi, but that's kind of a whole other deal. Anyways, that being the case, korra's more of a stand alone kind of deal, and I think it kind of falls flat on it's own, because it just isn't very good and I don't like it as much as the OG.

You also get a lot of people that will blame all the problems on the show that it kept getting renewed season after season without any real knowledge of the future viability of the show, but I think I would still just blame the writing, in that respect. You can make a good, contiguous series of media based only on good improv, only on good setup and payoff, external to the idea that the show has multiple locked-in seasons. I don't think it matters too much, if you're good enough. Main example there is probably just venture bros, though.

peepee_longstonking ,

Mussy?

far_university1990 ,

Moossy

merc ,

In English common law, a "lunar month" traditionally meant exactly 28 days or four weeks, thus a contract for 12 months ran for exactly 48 weeks

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_month

So, depending on the legal framework, a 28 day marker could be very useful. If they were actually tracking the moon, you'd think it would be 29 units even though a lunar month can vary between about 29.1 and 29.9 days. Then again, 28 notches on a stick means 29 sections, so...?

It's interesting that a woman's menstrual cycles is approx 28.1 days on average, with a standard deviation of 3.95 days. That means 28 days is a lot closer to the average menstrual cycle than the average lunar month. But, the standard deviation is a lot greater.

ChexMax ,

Other than tides, why do you need to know when the next full moon is? And can't you just look at the moon and see how close it is waning to the full moon?

Not saying the calendar is definitely a woman's, but wanting to know when you're going to start leaking blood onto everything near you seems like a good reason to track a period.

prettybunnys ,

I mean you can look at the moon to get a general sense, but if you want to be more precise then I’d use the new moon as the start and count the days until the next new moon.

As far as why, I mean the seasons generally follow the lunar cycle so it would be a way to count the seasons and time and plan and do literally anything you’d need to do that you’d track time for.

I bet you’d even want to track your menstrual cycle, I just wouldn’t limit it to that.

I think the real “issue” with the OP statement and what my response is meant to say is that it doesn’t have to be either or.

Rinox ,

So, since Islam uses the lunar calendar, you're telling me that the reason why they use it is to track menstruations?

Good to know they are attentive to their women's needs

ChexMax ,

I'm saying you don't need to make marks on a bone to track the lunar cycle.. you just look up.

Rinox ,

The same way Arab countries don't need a calendar, they just look up

GrayBackgroundMusic ,

This is neat, but how is it a meme?

Aqarius ,

IIRC "Calendar" was one of the proposed solutions, but the bone actually had a lot more than 28 holes. It's one of the reasons it's purpose is considered unknown.

I always find this particular strain of antiintellectualism deeply ironic, because it claims to oppose women being forgotten, but the premise assumes the "scientists" are all male.

idiomaddict ,

I don’t see it assuming scientists are all men. Women are just as capable of internalized misogyny and just as capable of being dense as men.

With the willendorf Venus, it wasn’t until a woman who had already had children worked with it, that they suspected it might be a pregnancy self portrait. There had been women already there, but none who knew what a pregnant person looks like from that perspective.

Aqarius ,

Ok, now that example I like very much!

idiomaddict ,

I’ve never been 7+ months pregnant (not a sad thing in my case, no worries), but I can 100% imagine that it feels like being the willendorf Venus. I love the idea of some woman however long ago half annoyed and half teasing making it and giving it to the father, saying “this is what I am now,” though.

bane_killgrind ,

"never more than 2 weeks pregnant" would be much less alarming, but it does have the implication of yeeting blastocysts at the grim reaper, however many or few...

idiomaddict ,

I just meant showing, I’ve never been past seven weeks, thankfully.

feedum_sneedson ,

I really like that idea, in principle, of a sculptor with no reflection to work from doing a self-portrait. But seriously, even somebody having triplets doesn't look like that unless they're like... super morbidly obese already. Even accounting for foreshortening, I mean damn. That kind of figure is a strictly modern invention. But maybe, it's still an interesting idea. But seriously.

idiomaddict ,

I’ve got a bmi of 19 and it doesn’t look so significantly different looking down when I’m not pregnant, lol. I even asked my husband to confirm it wasn’t hella body dysmorphia. I, uh, am not going to post a picture, but you can plug various values into this visualizer and change the angle of view. It has always been pretty accurate for me.

Norgur ,

The crux with all of those "first calendars" (idk which one is meant here, but there are multiple who claim this) is that we don't even know if it's a calendar at all. I mean, if this professor's approach serves as an eve-opeher for some, we should retell it whenever possible, yet it doesn't reflect any of the questions we should ask ourselves when seeing 28 carvings in a bone. Assuming that htis can only be a calendar is just the hidden assumption that numbers 25 and up could not have played a role anywhere else, because ppl were to primitive for those numbers somehow.

Perhaps they tracked how many calves in herd they had, or how many horses they had or how many bows they needed to make or how many children there were in the village. Perhaps they wanted to go higher and track something completely different and only got to 28 before they abandoned their approach to whatever they were doing.

TheBat ,
@TheBat@lemmy.world avatar

eve-opeher

owen ,

LOL. I guess if it reads, it reads

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