Not once have I encountered a trans person on a dating app who wasn't 100% transparent about it. Some even asked me after matching, "you're aware that I'm trans, right?" just to be sure.
There's no logical reason to falsely pretend to be cis on a dating app to get matches. If someone's cool about it then it's better to know up front, right? And if they're not, then you probably don't want to waste your time on them.
The "justification" for this app is just bigotry, plain and simple. Fuck TERFs.
The technology that excludes transwomen from the app is the clear warning that the app is populated exclusively for transphobes. It's obviously wildly dangerous for a transwoman to be on the app.
The notion that AI is going to clock them is absurd AI hype. There's no reason to expect AI to be capable of this kind of discernment, and that assumes you even had a training set. Where in the absolute fuck would someone find a training set like that?
Edit: I didn't read the article. It seems it's a lesbian dating app. Well, probably less dangerous for transwomen, but still not technically sound.
Why do you guarantee that? It seems obviously wrong, on a technical level.
The point I'm making is that even if we take it as a given that a shrewd enough AI could correctly distinguish sex at birth -- which I think is obviously impossible based on the appearances of many ciswomen and the nature of statistical prediction -- you'd still need a training data set.
If the dataset has any erroneous input, that corrupts its ability, and the whole point of this exercise is trying to find passing transwomen. Why would anyone expect that training set of hundreds of thousands of supposed cis women wouldn't have a few transwomen in it?
Because Facebook's data practices, and how much was volunteered by users on there, means that for some percentage of trans users Facebook knows that they're trans. And you also have a percentage of pregnancy photos uploaded, if someone identifies as a woman on Facebook, and has uploaded photos with a baby bump, she's cis (or at least a pre-hatching trans person). And at one point in time, a lot of people just volunteered that info to Facebook.
We sometimes have to clarify that LGBT+ folk aren't particularly virtuous, just people, and like the rest of the population suffers from its own share of internal bigotry. The lesbian community is no exception.
Lesbians range from really rather bisexual to staunchly misandrist and there are different gatekeeping checkpoints, where some don't count trans women as lesbians to others that don't want to date a woman who's ever been with a man (which makes for a really small dating pool).
But this kind of exclusion is not about who these women date, rather who they allow into their community and are allowed to come to their potlucks and tea parties. Generally communities that are progressive and have experienced external oppression and dehumanization are glad to be welcoming and inclusive. Mostly. And I think this includes the lesbian community.
From my experience. I'll get to how that's tricky.
I've found the lesbian circles I've engaged with have been even more inclusive than the general LGBT+ community. They're actually really good about including bisexuals and trans women that are into women. However, this is partly due to the anthropic principle: Even though I'm enby I still have [M] on my state ID, look like a dude and have male parts, and have been completely forthright about this even in online circles (e.g. r/actuallesbians) where no-one would ever know I was really a cat. But this means that I don't get invites to circles that are more restrictive, since I'd be high on the no-admittance list.
But inclusive lesbians are not super fond of less inclusive ones, especially since human sexuality can change over time. The closet has multiple doors, and when your best friend who invites you to all the get-togethers is a women-only transphobe second-wave feminist (this was a thing), and suddenly you've been taking an interest in a special guy, you're going to keep your bi-curiosity hidden from your friend (or stop being friends). And as per the whole thing of coming out, the point of the LGBT+ community is being able to be who you are, and being accepted and validated.
So when I see a lesbians dating app that is intentionally looking to draw transphobes, it reminds me of those conservative dating apps to hook up men in the white power movement with trad-wife minded women, which is to say it's good they're over there and not trying to date people over here that they're ultimately going to disappoint and hurt.
Good point. I don't want to date trans people, but I wouldn't want to use an app that purposely excluded them. I'd rather occasionally have to go "oh sorry thanks for telling me" than restrict my dating pool to bigots.
I mean, isn't that also just true of anyone you've interacted with? Their point was that they never "found out" someone they were dating on there was trans, and everyone that dated from those apps who oc every discovered were trans were straightforward about it.
Why would you need or want to be that precise about your language?
oh geez, thank you for explaining someone else's point, you must be quite an insider into their thoughts 😂
was that they never “found out”
that is not what was said
why would you need or want to be that precise about your language
you need to be precise with your language because that is what allows us to communicate ideas to each other and logic through arguments, eventually accepting or refuting them.
for example you can call these two strawberry, and nuclear submarine, but it is going to seriously hinder your communication with others, because that is now what is commonly understood under these terms.
you can see it in the comment we are discussing. because i read the implication original commenter tried to make as it never happened to me => it is not a problem that needs to be addressed.
which is incorrect implication in itself, but more importantly, as i pointed out, the premise of the implication is flawed.
It's absolutely happened to me. I also don't understand. Maybe the reasoning is, if they get me to invest enough time then maybe I'll suddenly be sexually attracted to penises? I don't know.
Having known multiple trans people and heard them talk about the arguments for and against early disclosure: Fear.
They may not be public about their status, and fear exposure to family or coworkers seeing their public profile.
They may fear harassment from transphobes. This could range from DM accusations of pedophilia to religious screeds to doxxing to death threats.
They may be trying to avoid "chasers." There are some people for whom a trans body (particularly a transfem body) is a fetish, who don't actually care about the person inside. Plenty of transpeople don't appreciate that kind of attention.
Fear of rejection. They may believe that nobody will respond if they're open about not being cis.
Also two less fear-related (and less common) possibilities:
Ideology. To some people, specifying "transman" or "transwoman" reinforces a social distinction they find invalidating or don't accept. How many profiles have you seen that specify themselves as "cisman" or "ciswoman"? For these people, it's a way of rejecting cisgender normativity.
Maybe they just aren't ready to talk about their genitals yet, or have their first conversation be about their surgical plans or history. Not only can get really repetitive having that be the first conversation with every single match, it means they don't get any of the information they're looking for about a potential partner until much later in the process and have to invest a lot of their own time up front. Just like you want the salient information you care about early on, so do they.
I haven't seen that. If you piss off the group mind here you pretty much move on. On real social media you have to worry that someone will just show up at your home.
I always get confused in this thought. So if govt bans twitter(hypothesis) and these people spread to other better places, will they improve or is it better to leave these vile beings among themselves to rot in their twitter or whatever.
I am okay with the group mind. YouTube kept suggesting Pragur and Epoch times to me.
It finally stopped when I told them in the report video that if I saw another suggestion for Epoch times I will physically go there and scream at them about their YouTube ads until I am dragged out of the building.
The problem is they took a healthy user base and injected hate speech into it. People thinking they need to preserve the space didn't get the message that they need to get out, so now elon is free to subjugate them. Now you have multiple entrenched sides that will erode at each other's goodwill until it blossoms into contempt and the cycle of human suffering continues.
At the same time other platforms can't thrive because they are overshadowed by the suffering machine.
There's a theory that part of the problem is that social media aggregates too many different people in one place. Our brains naturally create in groups and out groups, making conflict and toxicity inevitable.
First, from a purely technical perspective, there is absolutely no way this works properly, you just can’t recognize a trans person just by looking at his/her face, even if this was ethically okay (and this isn’t), it couldn’t work at all.
Second, the privacy nightmare that would be, every picture of everyone would be processed (and certainly stored forever for training the program) without the possibility to disable it ?
And finally, the obvious discrimination against trans people (I never encountered a trans person that wasn’t honest about it, so it’s even pointless to "detect" them)
To be honest I’m not in the LGBT community or anything, but this goes to far
I never encountered a trans person that wasn’t honest about it
I guess you're not on dating apps?
Happened to me a lot. For some reason, especially while I was on my way to meet them. "Hey, by the way, is it okay if I have a penis?*
Look, I'm sorry, I'm not attracted to penises. So far I've only had one attempt to say it's transphobic to not want to have sex with them, but even for the others it's really shitty to lead someone on like that.
The consensus in the trans community is to let a potential partner know earlier, rather than later. It avoids the situation you've encountered. Some men also can react violently, when they find out, so it's quite a critical dilemma to them.
Unfortunately, not all follow that mindset. They also tend to bust out a lot, and so lead a lot of men on.
It's a bit like the scumbag dilemma women face. Very few men are scumbags, yet women encounter them regularly when dating. Most men try not to annoy the women they find attractive. They are careful in their approach mentality. This means they only make a few approaches (relatively). They also tend to pair off, and so exit the pool. Scumbags cast a wide net, and don't hang on to women for long. This means they make a LOT of approaches, and so annoy a vastly disproportionate number of women.
Basically most trans people try to be as polite and careful about it as possible. A few, unfortunately, can destroy the reputation of the rest by being scumbags about it, at least locally.
I just keep thinking of my soon to be sister-in-law who is trans and we just have never discussed it. There is zero need to. She is marrying my brother-in-law not marrying me. Also I just really don't care what she has going on down there. That goes in the big pile of "not my concern".
In any case my kids call her aunt and she is the fun aunt so that works out.
Were they actually being dishonest about it, or were they not disclosing it? There are a lot of things people don't disclose before meeting up. Outside of a romantic relationship context, cis people tend to be more accepting of trans people in general if the cis people don't know right away that the person is trans and find out later.
But for sexual/romantic relationships it's different because most people want to know the genitals of their potential partners up front. This makes it difficult for trans people, who are stuck deciding at what point they should disclose the state of their genitals, in a way that is considered honest, keeps them safe, and maintains some privacy.
Were they actually being dishonest about it, or were they not disclosing it?
Kind of both? They didn't explicitly lie. They could pass, at least in photos (I never actually met any of them after this point). So it was more of a lie by omission.
And this was dating apps, so obviously it was a sexual/romantic situation.
Yes it does suck on your end but on the other side of the phone your perspective date is probably having a whole mental breakdown about it. For a lot of trans folk disclosure is absolutely nessisary as early as possible and preferably for safety reasons not when you are face to face...
Buuuut they also are very likely to get really vile transphobic backlash from a perspective date as much as they are honest rejections based on genital preference which sucks to be rejected for but is nobody's fault. There's a lot of trans people out there who feel like they are never going to be given a chance. Either way steeling themselves for one form of rejection or a vile reminder of the awful people out there who think you are subhuman and are offered up a nice juicy target on which to let loose their bigotry does tend to make for disordered social niceties. Once someone has been burned enough they get pretty damn shy and the procrastination is more of a case of battling personal traumas until the last possible second where one absolutely must do the right thing.
I don't think this goes too far morally, but technically - what you said, this doesn't work. It definitely won't for those of trans people who had their hormone balance sufficiently off since birth. Well, I don't know anything about hormones or human development, but I've read that the transition itself is usually a smaller part in addition to what has been already dealt by nature. And I've met a person once by whom I wouldn't tell (from appearance).
I’ve read that the transition itself is usually a smaller part in addition to what has been already dealt by nature
This is unfortunately not the case for most trans people. I think it's quite rare that a trans person would consistently be able to pass (=blend in) before HRT.
There are some trans people who are also intersex, which is the condition when one's biological sex (without medical intervention) doesn't fit neatly in either the male or female boxes. But most trans people aren't intersex and about half of intersex people aren't trans.
Edit: But I do agree with your main point, there's simply no way an app like this could identify trans people with the vast range of facial features humans have. It will both exclude many cis women and allow many trans women, as Giggle did a few years ago.
Seriously, it's on you the longer you stay on that shithole platform. Despite all of the warnings. All of the things Musk has done. You're still on it. Why? Besides member count, why? Why stick with something that actively hates you and works against your best interests?
"Because uh, muh friends..."
Get those friends off the fucking platform too. If they're staying behind, consider getting new friends.
Mastodon and Blue Sky are better alternatives. Get the fuck off of X. Get some damn self-respect for once.
I feel like the type of person reading your comment on Lemmy isn't the type of person that stays on a platform after it pulls shit they don't agree with.
isn't this solving a problem that doesn't really exist? I'd have thought most trans people on dating apps would be fairly up front about it... you know for safety or even just expectations management? I can't speak from experience, my dating life predates the rise of dating apps
Yes, trans folks tend to be pretty upfront for the reasons you mentioned.
This is just some hateful, bullshit, trans panic nonsense. Some people can't even handle the idea that they might as a matter of course be attracted to a trans person given the opportunity.
This tech will inevitably also exclude some slightly less normative appearing cis folks too, but they don't care because they just hate trans people.
It actually won't, it will incorrectly attempt to identify and exclude people, but it won't work, because this is all snake oil horseshit perpetrated by attention seeking grifters.
The best part: The creator (a woman) couldn't even pass her own app's test; it said she was a man with 97% certainty. 🤣 TERF didn't check herself, and thus wrecked herself.
Mastodon is pretty great for queer people. Better than lemmy I would say
That's a bit of a weird thing to say if you ask me, as Lemmy and Mastodon is both just the fediverse and they are connected. So surely it just depends who/what you follow?
They are connected but in practice there is definitely a big separation between lemmy and mastodon.. you see mastodon posts on mastodon, lemmy posts on lemmy. yes its possible to view lemmy posts on mastodon but its fucking garbage integration, i have never seen a lemmy posts boosted on mastodon it just doesn't happen.. if I see a mastodon post here its in the form of a screen shot.. the communities are effectively separate
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