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Are you prepared for the ramifications of windows 10 EoL?

Next year Windows 10 goes End of Life. Microsoft will undoubtedly push windows 11 hard, but a lot of machines won’t support it leading to a few economic points of interest:

The demand for new machines will be high, driving up cost.

The supply of unsupported machines will be high, driving down the used market.

Are you all ready?

20hzservers ,

My job in the a non technical field relies on a laptop to run a label printer, the laptop is ancient and I already had to install revOS on it so that printing labels isn't horribly bogged down waiting on the laptop to load the simple printer program. Is there anyway that proton would be able to run that program? Probably not because of all lack of driver support, if anyone has any ideas I'm all ear, even just pointing me in a direction would be appreciated!

tal , (edited )
@tal@lemmy.today avatar

Proton is really a WINE fork intended specifically for Steam games. Most of the changes in it target games. You may hear a lot about Proton having good compatibility because, historically, games were where WINE tended to have compatibility issues, and Valve put a lot of work into fixing that, so it's more that Proton just improved the situation a lot recently.

WINE might be able to run the program, would be what I'd try rather than Proton. You can technically run Proton without Steam, but it's not really designed for that.

Or you might be able to run a Windows VM on newer hardware and run it on that, would be my fallback attempt. Less seamless than just having a Windows program open a window alongside Linux ones, but sometimes that can work if WINE can't do it.

I'd see if Linux can recognize the label printer, if this is a really ancient printer. That'd be my first step. Then look into having Windows apps print to said printer.

20hzservers ,

Shit lol, I meant wine, I personally use proton for steam so it's stuck in my brain first. Also it's not so much that it's ancient but that it's a commercial printer not really marketeted to the public, but I'll give running the computer on Linux a shot with wine maybe a Linux miracle will happen.

Agility0971 ,
@Agility0971@lemmy.world avatar

This sounds interesting. What the hell is RevOS? What kind of label maker is that? Does it have a name? Do you know what kind of cable it's using to communicate with the pc?

20hzservers ,

Yeah it's brand name is kiaro it just uses a usb to connect to the laptop, and revOS is basically just a custom windows install that has as much of the bloatware removed as possible as well as some UI mods to make it feel more like old school windows a little bit. The laptop is from like pre 2010 so Microsoft is slowly killing it's performance with all the bloatware crap. Kinda ridiculous that they don't take older hardware performance very seriously on windows the thing is just trying to run simple GUI printer software and it was struggling hard before revOS.

Agility0971 ,
@Agility0971@lemmy.world avatar

This is what I think one need to do to test if that would work

  • get latest ubuntu live cd
  • install bottles
  • run label printer installer for windows in bottles
  • check if the program runs at all

If the device is a COM device in windows then I think it should just work out of the box. If not, then the entire device needs to be forwarded using udev rules to wine. Let me know if you want to attempt this :)

SapphironZA ,

We are trialing about 20 Linux desktops (10 Linux mint and 10 zorin OS) across 2 of our MSP clients.

So far, they have had zero technical tickets in 6 months. They did have double the average user training tickets compared to windows machines. Most of the questions were around how to work with editable PDFs and where is the document was they just saved (file manager questions).

Zorin OS seems to be winning on the usability metrics. Its very polished and more closely matching the UI of people coming from windows.

DeprecatedCompatV2 ,

Are there any windows programs you've had to set up through wine?

SapphironZA ,

Not in our case. We only take on clients that converted to browser based apps. Bit we are yet to convert the heavy excel users. The one we have converted are light Excel users and online excel is working just fine for them.

vivavideri ,

It's my only hangup. I vba on the regular. Work forced win11 on me, but at home, once i can be assed, I'll vm windows eventually and migrate completely, and scheme alternative languages for my spreadsheet wizardry lmao

Wooki ,

Libre calc Scripting imo is more matured and better than excel. Better and far more popular language (python or javascript equally far better than vb)

vivavideri ,

I've heard good things but haven't looked into it yet. Thing is, I got so good at vba that I got a promotion out of it lmao. As archaic as it is, my work is essentially hardcoded in windows for the foreseeable future, so I have to be able to dick around in msoffice.

Wooki ,

I highly recommend skilling up asap. Its really eol. Nothing stopping you from changing your code to python (which is supported in excel) with the goal to migrate out to either an application or FOSS office suite. LibreOffice costs your corpo IT nothing to deploy unlike MS Office which costs to buy and keeps costing with every proprietary service and feature you use.

Agility0971 ,
@Agility0971@lemmy.world avatar

If you want yet another promotion you know what to do next

cy_narrator ,

Not sure if I will live that long

KISSmyOSFeddit ,

Yep, got my frenly window-smashing ball and a mug of pale eol ready.

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/5c55ea23-3bde-4d80-b6bf-bf82db15df86.jpeg

viking ,
@viking@infosec.pub avatar

Just get yourself a copy of the LTSC (long term service contract) versions, they will still be supported until 2027, and in the past have been extended by up to 5 years on top.

It's the only viable alternative to Linux, for those who can't switch for one or another reason. Windows 11 is pure cancer.

Godort ,

The first release of windows 11 LTSC is supposed to be out sometime this year too.

Much like the 10 version, I expect it to have most of the bloat removed and only require a couple tweaks.

MudMan ,
@MudMan@fedia.io avatar

Having used 10 and 11 interchangeably since 11 came out... meh.

I mean, maybe there are additional annoyances from the IT/sysadmin side that I just don't bump into as a user, but besides some UX downgrades that don't make sense (that taskbar... why?) it's a pretty neutral change. Maybe I'm to grizzled by having been there in the switch to 95. I unironically had Windows Me on my computer there for a while. I even caved and did some Vista eventually.

But not Windows 8. Windows 8 was unusable.

viking ,
@viking@infosec.pub avatar

The taskbar is one thing, but it's horribly slow, even on a rather high spec laptop. The delay from clicking start menu icons to programs starting is very noticeable, and some programs freeze regularly. MS Office are actually some of the worst offenders. I tried it for 2 weeks and then did a fresh install of Windows 10.

I didn't even mind ME, for me it was running pretty stable. I heard most issues came from people updating from 98 or 98SE to ME, a clean install was usually stable.

I skipped Vista though, went straight to 7. Still my favorite Windows. 8 was crap, 8.1 was not bad once you applied the taskbar fix.

EngineerGaming , (edited )
@EngineerGaming@feddit.nl avatar

Funny that this started with 10 in my experience. Our family laptop did an involuntary upgrade back in 2016, and its 2 cores, 4 gigs of ram and hdd just couldn't handle it. And none in our family was savvy enough to downgrade to 7. Thankfully same did not happen to mom's similarly weak one, it was saved from running an EOL system by Linux)

Petter1 ,

I just upgraded my work surface book 3 to 11 and for me it seems that program start faster, not slower 🤔

MudMan ,
@MudMan@fedia.io avatar

Hm. Not been my experience going back and forth between 10 and 11, but that's always the case with Windows, isn't it? Bit of a crapshoot in general.

Honestly, I have no idea how to evaluate real laptop performance these days. Most of the performance issues I have on battery devices are some unholy combination of horrific power management, bad software and semi-deliberate online weirdness with services throttling you out of adblocker spite.

People are out there telling you how well Youtube is meant to perform playing video and how long the battery is meant to run based on that and I don't even know what they mean anymore.

dual_sport_dork ,
@dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world avatar

I actually liked the full screen Start menu from 8/8.1 for the specific use case of my living room PC. You got a big 10-foot UI by default with nice large icons you could punch from across the room.

The whole put-your-mouse-in-the-corner-and-swipe for the charms menu was baffling, though. I get that this was supposed to be a tablet UI thing, but why make it mandatory for the mouse interface as well?

user224 ,
@user224@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

Windows 8, maybe. But Windows 8.1 was awesome. The optimization, it ran perfectly on a potato.

MudMan ,
@MudMan@fedia.io avatar

Yep. I get they wanted to pretend 8 wasn't a complete bust, hence the 8.1 nonsense, but they should have called it Windows 9 and been honest about it. They certainly acknowledged it by the time 10 came around.

dual_sport_dork ,
@dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world avatar

Nothing got named "Windows 9" because Microsoft feared compatibility issues with janky programs looking for the first set of characters in "Windows 95" or "Windows 98."

Later this was changed by the marketing department to some blather about "wanting consumers to perceive a clean break from the previous version." But then, Microsoft also claimed Windows 10 would be the Last Windows, and it would just have feature updates built on top of it forever as a service. So you sure as fuck can't take anything they say at face value.

bamboo ,

I think when Microsoft said Windows 10 was the last version, they were serious about it. And they kept it up for a pretty long time too. I think windows 11 happened only because some marketing person wanted to be able to pitch a new version, and a UX refresh was already being implemented.

dual_sport_dork ,
@dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world avatar

11 has artificial hardware requirements built in that will prevent it from installing on a lot of computers (possibly most computers deployed in the world, at this point) which is the main issue. All those non-technical home users who bought a brand name prebuilt PC in 5, 6, however many years ago that still works just fine will not be able to upgrade.

They will be left in the lurch unless M$ relents and removes those requirements (unlikely), they all learn to patch them out themselves (extremely unlikely), or they all go buy new computers with newer hardware (extremely annoying).

MudMan ,
@MudMan@fedia.io avatar

As me and others have said all over this thing, Windows 10 no longer getting updates doesn't mean it's mandatory to update. Most of the users you describe will not notice or care that security updates die out and they will just take whatever runs in the next PC they buy, as they normally do.

This mostly matters to power users and corporations. If that. I'm arguably a power user and have zero intention to upgrade my legacy Win10 machines for this reason, either.

Wooki , (edited )

Windows 11 is garbage:

  1. UI is garbage, from right click to the taskbar, its a alpha release being sold to as complete product.
  2. settings missing alot of control panel items and you cant go back in some cases for even simple things like sound device management, network management, all settings are far far from parity.
  3. Poor hardware compatibility, bsod on same hardware is common occurance.
  4. Privacy invasive spyware. From the search service to the telemetry. Its a data mining platform
  5. Security is terrible. Internet connected Services are on by default that shouldnt be like search and telemetry. Any on by default service, like telemetry can and are abused with zero days. Mandated cloud services as a bandaid to poor local account security. Security is a bandaid full stop, from the kernel to cloud services its not secure by design.
MudMan ,
@MudMan@fedia.io avatar

Agree on 1, mostly. I forget that's the case because I have software installed to fix it, which is fairly trivial but shouldn't be necessary in the first place.

2 is a day one meme thing that no longer holds. Sound management in particular is now much better than Win 10 in several key areas, IMO. Likewise with 3. Echoes of Vista and Win 8.1 dragging day one legit complaints way past when they were no longer an issue.

4 and 5 are the kinds of things that average users typically don't know or care about (and mostly don't have to) and are debatable from a power user's perspective. If the argument is Win10 is reaching end of support and you care about the implications of that, then you are the type of user that can fix that problem. And if you're the kind of user who doesn't care about a supported vs unuspported Win10, you don't care about this specific observation either.

Let me be clear, I'm not an active apologist for Win 11 or any other Windows, I just don't have a preference. Win11 was a sidestep, the best I can say for it is that I'm kinda glad MS was semi-forced to keep it as a separate version rather than a patch to 10. But it's also mostly just fine. A few people got really incensed about it early on and have tried to keep up a pretense that it's a disaster iteration in the vein of some of the really bad ones, which using it day to day is clearly an exaggeration.

Wooki , (edited )
  1. Is absolutely still an issue expecially when manufacturers advise on disabling OS features for compatibility. Dont forget that user base you talk about, this is an OS upgrade so if its not stable, its not suitable. My god is it not stable, read kernal processor power management. Its a stability nightmare for general users.

So bother with all that mac imitation especially when the upgrade is not possible? Just buy the more power efficient, faster and improved value chrome book.

MudMan ,
@MudMan@fedia.io avatar

Wait, who is talking about ChromeOS? I thought we were talking about Win10 v Win11.

Wooki ,

I through that in for bait ❤️ for the MS bros

MudMan ,
@MudMan@fedia.io avatar

I swear, the fact that people treat operating systems as if they were 90s kids arguing about Sega vs. Nintendo is exhausting and I have zero patience for it.

Wooki ,

Coolaid for any company is exhausting. Yet here we are, entire ecosystems built to serve coporate self interest and sheep drink it.

Lmaydev ,

I use 10 at home and 11 at work and I can't say I've really noticed a difference tbh. Apart from the start menu I guess.

Feels similar to what people said about 7 and 10.

Brkdncr OP ,

Long term servicing “Channel”

viking ,
@viking@infosec.pub avatar

Ah, that was it. Thanks!

Felipe ,

Just using 10 LTSC which has updates until 2032 iirc. I would switch to Linux but my simracing hardware doesn't play nice.

secret300 ,

I thought that was only the IoT version that had support til 2032

tal , (edited )
@tal@lemmy.today avatar

simracing hardware

Hmm. Like, pedals, throttle, steering wheel? That was an issue many years back, but most of that supports USB HID these days. Like, OSes don't normally need hardware-specific drivers or anything.

f__ ,

Unfortunately, that's really not true for most sim racing hardware. Lower-end Logitech and Thrustmaster stuff usually works fine, but you're pretty much screwed once you go beyond that.

Felipe ,

Wheel and pedal's work fine but headtracking seems to be a no go with my ghetto setup, Assetto Corsa (with Content Manager) is also a huge PIA to setup.

DSTGU ,

Cheap good win10 systems, yum. I m ready

rekabis ,

I used to take pride in that I could fully set up, configure, secure, minimally provision (with software) and neuter the more egregious aspects of Vista/7/8/8.1 within a 16hr time frame.

With Windows 10 this increased to 20 hours, and with my own Windows 11 install I am currently clocking in at 24hrs - three whole work days. The last day of which is spent in the Registry and doing multiple reboots to ensure the new UI fuckery has been appropriately castrated.

I have a handful of programs, both current and vintage, that are either inadequately or completely unable to be serviced by Wine. With that said, I am now down to only two rigs on Windows, the remainder being various flavours of Linux or BSD.

Cocodapuf ,

I'm ready to reinstall 7, problem solved.

Lemminary ,

If MS decides that my hardware is obsolete, I'll just go full Linux 🤷‍♂️

Gormadt ,
@Gormadt@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Personally I use Linux Mint on my other machine and Windows on my main PC

Before Windows 10 goes EoL I'm going to get my NAS running a Windows VM for Fusion 360 and Lightroom and my main rig will be on Linux Mint as well

I just need a need to finish my NAS rebuild to get everything rolling at full steam

Unfortunately that means I need to stop buying car parts first

PlutoniumAcid ,
@PlutoniumAcid@lemmy.world avatar

stop buying car parts first

Oof. Same, brother. Same. 🤜🤛

dual_sport_dork ,
@dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world avatar

As your attorney I advise you to buy a motorcycle. Bikes and bike parts are cheaper. And then you can have more bikes than cars, and more bikes to buy parts for. Wait, where was I going with this again?

Bronzie ,

This was my logic.
Sell the BMW and get a Ducati and then a Honda Monkey….
Ooooh shiny new Rizoma parts!!!

My account ain’t growing at all…!

kingorgg ,

If you wanted to get rid of windows in general, Darktable seems to be a good alternative to lightroom, for raw editing. There's a learning curve, but there are plenty of tutorials available.

Not sure about Fusion 360 though... Maybe FreeCAD?

Gormadt ,
@Gormadt@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Unfortunately FreeCAD is not as featur e rich as Fusion 360

It's getting closer but it's not there yet

1984 ,
@1984@lemmy.today avatar

Did that over 10 years ago so hope you join up soon. :)

Petter1 ,

Same with apple, tho 😇

metaStatic ,

Apple is king of new OS doesn't work on the old hardware though

Petter1 ,

Yes! Luckily the opensource folks are crazy and make awesome progress reversing m chips
It matters to me because somday (maybe 10y) I’ll get the one of my mother for free 😂 like i got my other apple PCs (running Arch/endeavourOS)

tal ,
@tal@lemmy.today avatar

Apple's the only hardware vendor for MacOS, so they've got slightly different incentives than Microsoft does for Windows. If a new MacOS release induces hardware purchases, that's a lot of money for Apple. If a new Windows release induces hardware purchases, Microsoft sees little of that benefit.

PassingThrough ,

Do you game at all? Gaming on Linux has made great strides, be be fair, but for a lot of titles you still need to consider a dual boot of some form of Windows, thanks to over the top anti-cheat, DRM, and developer support.

Something to consider for the gamers out there.

kava ,

The only titles that don't work in Linux are the ones with invasive anti-cheat, some multi-player titles.

Virtually all single players game work. I've had games that don't work on Windows due to crashes / performance but run on Linux.

aStonedSanta ,

Game pass games also do not work afaik.

cybersandwich ,

Apex started acting up on pop a year and half ago which drove me back to my windows partition (that I hadn't seen in almost 18 months).

I don't know if my issue is: pop, proton, steam, apex, my hardware(bad ram?), flatpaks, the deb, or something else. In my opinion it's one of the toughest part about Linux gaming--when something goes wrong you arent going to find a ton of help since there is so much fragmentation.

But anyway, I echo your sentiment. Windows is still a necessary evil for a lot of us if you are big into PC gaming.

Trollception ,

My machine is 7 years old and runs fine on Windows 11. I don't understand all these posts about Windows 11 not being supported. TPMs have been a thing for 10+ years now.

Majestix ,

My whole Company is still on 10, seems like we need to somewhat scramble to move over, right?

whereisk ,

That's what they're counting on.

Trollception ,

Microsoft will extend support once the deadline is near, for enterprise customers.

yessikg ,
@yessikg@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

I have decided to install Debian on the one Windows 10 PC I have

FellowEnt ,

I should probably look into why my absolute beast of a machine apparently isn't compatible with W11. I've just been ignoring it forever.

thatKamGuy ,

You likely just need to enable TPM through the BIOS (each manufacturer calls it something different).

I’m in a similar boat, but am going to use W10 EOL to probably jump ship to Linux - if not at the very least switch to Windows 10 LTSC.

FellowEnt ,

Thanks, seems easy enough! Unfortunately my work revolves around the Adobe suite so it's W11 fun times for me yay

stom ,

Same. If it weren't for substance painter and a few other DCC apps I'd have already moved over.

Liz ,

They're requiring an unnecessary new piece of hardware in order to force more computer sales. Exactly why Microsoft is interested in forcing more hardware sales, I'm not entirely sure. The hardware in question is some kind of encryption thingy, but it doesn't offer any real benefits beyond just changing where the fundamental layer of trust is for the encryption in your computer.

efscher ,
@efscher@lemmy.nyc.what.if.ua avatar

ws2k12r2 is still getting updates, what w10? ;)

Brkdncr OP ,

They are? Support ended and they stopped receiving updates.

efscher ,
@efscher@lemmy.nyc.what.if.ua avatar

https://hackandpwn.com/windows-8.1-and-2012-r2-esu-analysis/

InternetUser2012 ,

I've been ready, ditched that malware over a year ago and it has been great.

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