I went to school for actuarial sciences but im basically an overpaid python programmer. If an actual dev evee see my code, they would shot in the face for sure (at least my boss thinks im a magician because I do in half an hour in poorly optimized python code processes it took him days to do on excel). I don't even know what encapsulation even means lmao.
Basically if you need the same logic in two places instead of copying it to the second place you make it into a function and use that function in both places.
That way if you need that logic to change you only need to make that edit once regardless of whether you use it one time or one thousand times.
Dude, you don't have to be a dev to write code. There are many self-taught coders out there. I do agree that they should read a book or two regarding coding pracices, but hey, you don't like it, rewrite it 🤷.
Me, personally, if someone else made it, I need it and I don't have time to meddle (I usually don't), I just use it. With all do respect, fuck coding practices, I got more important things in my life to worry about.
Meh, maintainability is king. Sticking to the letter of the style law is probably not necessary, but ignoring badly structured code now is going to bite you in the ass when it comes time to change any of it.
To be honest, yes, this is very true. Politicans use this all the time... and I just hate it when they talk for like 30 minutes and basically say nothing.
Business people too. They have a way of speaking that kind of pacifies and exhausts you, so that by the time they're finished speaking you're confused and don't really feel like arguing anymore
There is an ancient 1400 year-old Arabic saying that goes إن من البيان لسحرا "in eloquence there is magic" or "some eloquence is magical". It is an ancient tactic.
Patrick Volkerding. It's amazing he's still managing his own Linux distro after all of these years. And I'm eternal grateful for him refusing to adopt systemd and pulseaudio when they were both not mature and stable enough and most other distros didn't care.
I love everything about Slackware except for the occasional weirdness and the absolute lack of package management from the distro itself (discounting third-party tools)
Meeh... Stallman, no, but Linus, yes, most definitely. I love his sense of humor to be honest, watch his AMAs from time to time, they're like standup to me 😂.
Stallman has done more than anyone for free software. Just because you don't like how he talks doesn't take away the talent and the sheer will of the man. Linux should have never entertained snowflakes
He has, no doubt there, but he's completely unflexible. The FSF would be better off without him. Other than the GNU tools, there really isn't much else that the FSF has done regarding free software. Like where are they now with the RH debacle. That thing is a dead on court case and they're nowhere to be found.
I'd hate to think what other projects needed their legal help and they were hiding under or a rock or something.
Also, one of the main reasons why many projects nowadays are under MIT or BSD licenses is because of Stallman. The lingo he uses is sort of faschist. The only good license is the GPL license, nothing else. That's no way to present something... anything really.
It's possible to recognize technical brilliance while understanding that someone is a deeply flawed human in their personal life. I am appreciative of his contributions to the open source ecosystem while also recognizing there is a cult of personality built around an abusive egomaniac here.
Separately from RMS, idolizing anyone insulates them from criticism. In my opinion it's elitism and socially unhealthy
the next time I see you copying VFS
functions (or any other core functions) without udnerstanding what the
f*ck they do, and why they do it, I'm going to put you in my
spam-filter for a week.
Like after all that he will just block him for a week 🤣 I would block them for a year minimum or forever...
As it is, I feel like I have to waste my time checking all your
patches, and I'm saying "it's not worth it".
I'm basically done with this. I never said I was a VFS guy and I
learned a lot doing this. I had really nobody to look at my code even
though most of it went to the fsdevel list. Nobody said I was doing it
wrong.
Sheesh. Seeing just how long he goes on tantruming is kinda surprising 😳 seems like the guy was just trying to contribute... ya don't have you shit in mouth, right? Jesus
Thank you for validating my feelings here. I don’t know why we idolize this kind of behavior, but berating someone on a mailing list should not be acceptable, much less desirable.
For sure! Like I think criticism should be welcomed from a constructive standpoint, but there were some outright personal attacks in there! After reading the wiki page for Linus a coupla days ago my perspective is starting to shift a bit towards him 😅 woof
I live by the “there are no heroes” philosophy myself. You can like some of what a person does while admitting that they are still flawed like the rest of us.
Way too much of the tech industry culture is rooted in idol worship.
Potentially hot take: I wish that more free and open source project leaders had the same "no-bullshit" attitude as Torvalds. It's a great way to cull out entitled people who put their own feelings over actual contribution, thus having negative impact over the project.
And every single other alternative to this behaviour would lead to worse outcomes, either to the project or the patch submitter.
I just wished he stopped making it personal. There's a huge difference between calling a person stupid and shitty versus calling the implementation stupid and shitty.
He rants, points out the flaws, calls the contributor a moron, and you have to waits a few emails before Linus actually provides a teaching moment. That kinda sucks.
It really does drive people away. I'm not good enough for the kernel, but there's a project I could contribute to as part of my job but I don't because there are mean folks there. My first contribution there was met with cursing.
Second iteration of the same hot take: some people need to be driven away.
I'll use myself as an example. If I were to "contribute" with the kernel, any patch that I'd submit would have more holes than a sieve, more bugs than a jungle, and cause so much regression that you'd need to reinvent fire. I'd have a negative impact there.
The same applies to most other people. And most other projects, regardless of scope (i.e. this is not exclusive to the kernel development, or even programming).
Except that some of us don't quite get when we're a burden. "No! I want to contribute, thus I'm contributing! Reality bends to my GOOD INTENSHUNS!!1one". So they end wasting the time of people like Torvalds, who got better shit to do than telling them for the 500th time "your PR was not accepted because [reasons]".
I honestly do not think that it smacks of insecurity. You can claim that it's rude, socially insensitive, perhaps even that it smacks of basement dwellers. But insecure? That sounds like assumption for me.
On the other hand, what does stink insecurity for me is the "I need to carefully pick words to avoid breaking someone else's feelings" attitude.
People the can't get their point across/accepted without belittling other people always come across as pretty insecure to me. "Do as I say or I'll shit all over you in front of everyone". It's like every bully trope ever.
On the other hand, what does stink insecurity for me is the "I need to carefully pick words to avoid breaking someone else's feelings" attitude.
Yeah you sound like one of those "I just say it like it is" types that never quite grasp that "how they see it" isn't the same as "how it is"
People the can’t get their point across/accepted without belittling other people always come across as pretty insecure to me. “Do as I say or I’ll shit all over you in front of everyone”. It’s like every bully trope ever.
We're talking about real life, not fiction tropes.
Yeah you sound like one
Stick to the topic instead of assuming (making shit up) about whoever you're disagreeing with. The topic is Torvalds, not some muppet with a chimp avatar.
Lol, yep, bully tropes are based on real life bullies lol. I'm not assuming anything, I'm telling you how you come across, why are you getting all butt hurt and trying to control what I say?
If you want to actually argue that what Torvalds is doing is bully behaviour, you got to do it another way, because what you're doing now is as bloody stupid as confusing porn with real life sex.
I’m not assuming anything, I’m telling you how you come across
Yes, you are being an assumer. And now a liar, too. I wasn't born yesterday, and I can easily see the implicature being conveyed by your "lol u sound liek".
why are you getting all butt hurt
And now you're being an assumer again. Worse: being an assumer towards things that you cannot reliably know, such as the emotional state of someone on the internet.
Stop wasting my time with off-topic shit that you make up. Unless you want both of us playing this game.
You're being utterly bizarre and seem to have confused the word trope to mean TV trope. What Torvalds does is literal bullying, he's literally been accused of literal bullying in the past and literally stepped away from Linux to work on it.
Yes, you are being an assumer.
You now sound like a child.
Stop wasting my time with off-topic shit that you make up. Unless you want both of us playing this game.
Playing what game? Why are you so intent on controlling what I'm allowed to and not allowed to say?
You’re being utterly bizarre and seem to have confused the word trope to mean TV trope.
Emphasis mine. For the third and last time,
stop assuming = making shit up
No, I am not confusing tropes with TV Tropes; I've linked TVTropes because it's a good resource to talk about tropes, a subject that YOU introduced through your idiotic "but bully tropes lol haha" reasoning, and it shows two things:
why your reasoning is garbage (link to Kick the Dog trope)
why fiction in general is not a reliable way to talk about reality (link to Reality is Unrealistic trope)
You're inadvertently proving why people like Torvalds chew some individuals out: because they don't learn with the carrot, you need to metaphorically bash their skulls with a 3m large stick, and unless you use the stick they'll keep doing the same sort of stupid shit over and over and over. Such as "i dun need to unrurrstand wut dis function does X-D I assooome its fine here lol!!@one lmao!11", or "I dunno things about ppl on teh inrurrnet but I can assooooome lol".
At least you're wasting the time of a nobody in Lemmy with your stupidity... or rather you were, as not even the nobody is willing to waste any time further with your blatant irrationality.
[If anyone else actually bothered to read what that assumer above wrote, and noticed something that is not completely garbage, feel free to point out.]
You copied that function without understanding why it does what it does, and as a result your code is flawed & inefficient. This poor practice is a pattern I've noticed.
Less likely to be effective. There's a good chance that the submitter won't get the message, and that they'll submit another pull request, five minutes later, with the exact same issue that made the first PR to be rejected. And again. Again. Again.
More insulting. Now you aren't just saying "your code is garbage"; you're saying "your code is garbage and you're a fragile little thing that will break apart if handled incorrectly".
As likely to create drama as the original verbiage, given that the drama is originated in human nature - we humans want to believe (even if outright false) that we're "contributing", even when we are not.
Thanks for the detailed response. We’ll disagree on this.
Points 3 & 1 seem to contradict each other a little bit. The modified verbiage obfuscates the message in a way which only impedes understanding aiding growth but not understanding evoking drama?
RE: #2, your entire response was very polite. You could’ve got the same point across by calling the approach I demonstrated stupid. FWIW, I didn’t feel coddled by your lack of disrespect.
Any psychologists running studies and concluding the most abrasive critiques are most effective? Any schools teaching the Linus method?
I didn't call your approach stupid because I don't think that it's stupid, even if I disagree with it.
The modified verbiage obfuscates the message in a way which only impedes understanding aiding growth but not understanding evoking drama?
If the message wasn't delivered, there's a high chance of further interactions that might create drama in the future. The quote in the OP is an example of that - in the original context there's an "AGAIN" that shows that it was not the first time that Steven Rostedt submitted a patch with the exact same issue.
So I believe that, even if you might get less drama now because the message wasn't understood, you'll end getting it later anyway.
Also, Torvalds' message does promote growth, if read fully. Even with the "your code is garbage", he's still explaining:
which function should be used there, atomic64_add_return()
the purpose of get_next_ino() and other VSF functions
that Rostedt is addressing what Torvalds believe to be a "made up problem"
that Rostedt should read further info on the core functions, before using them
it's just that the quote picks the spicy bit and leaves the boring carb behind.
Heaven help the community if “flawed & inefficient”, “poor practice…pattern” aren’t direct enough feedback! Linus’s style being an outlier suggests polite criticism is enough to make the world turn.
I think you could even simply replace capslock GARBAGE with capslock [FUNDAMENTALLY] FLAWED, leave the “AGAIN”, and it’d be OK if harsh.
Glad he did some teaching after the flaming in any case.
Heaven help the community if “flawed & inefficient”, “poor practice…pattern” aren’t direct enough feedback!
This was not directed towards the Linux community. It was directed towards a Google engineer. The community is the ones that you're indirectly proposing that deserve worse software for the sake of that part of Google's corporation.
And "worse" is not just a matter of "oh, I got a kernel panic. Damn. Reboot." It's actually serious shit; that kernel code will end being used in things from medical applications to sending Ingenuity to Mars. Worse code might literally mean "we detected your cancer too late, last time you were here the MRI wasn't working".
He is not even getting personal in this case dammit. I concede that getting personal (he does it sometimes) would be over-the-topic, but in this case he's insulting the code, not the person.
Linus’s style being an outlier suggests polite criticism is enough to make the world turn.
Torvalds' style is an outlier but so is the kernel. And the kernel being an outlier suggests that harsh criticism actually works.
Most of our [we = human beings, including you and me] production is garbage, even if acknowledging this offends our sensibilities.
It's almost like you guys [you + people across this thread] want to believe that only the carrot is effective. The stick is also effective, even if you don't want to believe that it is.
I think you could even simply replace capslock GARBAGE with capslock [FUNDAMENTALLY] FLAWED, leave the “AGAIN”, and it’d be OK if harsh.
Dunno if you noticed, but this is actually ruder in hindsight.
Torvalds' approach: "your code is garbage."
Your approach: "your code is garbage but since you're a fragile little piece of junk I can't tell you that directly, I got to mince some words."
And odds are that, if he did it the way that you're proposing, people would complain again that he's being rude, and expect him to mince words even further.
Glad he did some teaching after the flaming in any case.
He did it before, during, and after bashing Rostedt.
I'll reply to myself to avoid editing the above (for transparency).
Linux users in this post: think on all issues that you had with your system. Bugs, papercuts, devs assuming use case, regressions (shit stopping working), dependency hell, anything. How many of those issues apply to the kernel, in a way that you can say "the kernel devs fucked it up"? For me, never.
I have a hypothesis, that I do not know the truth value of, that the kernel not annoying the shit out of us users is directly related to Torvalds' propensity to tell people "your code is GARBAGE", instead of sugar-coating it. And that free + open source projects where project leaders don't do this tend to be crappier. (Does anyone here know a good way to falsify this hypothesis?)
It's half this, and half an explicit policy "we do not break user space". Together it meant that if you did anything that screwed up the user space you got told about it at length.
Now Linux culture is established enough that it only really needs the policy, and not the cussing people out to enforce it.
I wasn't aware of that email, only the quote itself.
...not gonna lie, I think that it was beautiful. I have my bones to pick with pulseaudio but come on, you don't shift blame like this, the guy deserved some smacking.
On-topic: I have my doubts if policy is enough to enforce it, or at least to enforce it in an efficient way.
Well this is it. What really enforces the policy is rejecting commits that break user space.
Now if you've got a large enough group of devs, rejecting commits is fine, but if you've only got a small group you need everyone to be working productively, and you can see why Linus ended up giving angry feedback about commits that were wasting everyone's time.
There's many ways to point out the issues with the patch without being a jerk. The patch wouldn't have made it in either way, and maybe there could've been more useful conversations about the concerns (re: tar) that were brought up in the previous message.
There’s many ways to point out the issues with the patch without being a jerk.
Yes, if you don't mind pointing out again those exact same issues again, because the same person (or potentially someone else) did the same mistake again, as they failed to understand the gravity of the issue again. And again, again, again.
...or alternatively you give the person a good smacking. That's what Torvalds did, while pointing out those issues again. Carrot and stick
maybe there could’ve been more useful conversations about the concerns (re: tar) that were brought up in the previous message.
Likely not - that tar example was brought to highlight that Torvalds' suggestion would cause a regression; that's it. The discussion itself reached a dead end, the solution wouldn't be to keep the conversation about that, but someone submitting a patch that would neither cause said regression nor misuse the VSF functions.
Linus needs to make no corrections to his behaviour. His apology was needless.
He only flames those who make dumb mistakes, should know better, keep doing it, and don't respect the gravity of the situation. Linux is used on MARS. Pretend to care.
There is a pattern to the people who get upset when they've earned a rebuke from Linus. Those people could get over themselves.
Also, humiliating someone in front of the whole LKML list by calling their code garbage isn't constructive. It's the reason why a lot of people take one look at that toxic cesspit and walk the other way.
[I]f you have anything to do with security in a distro, and think that my kids (replace ‘my kids’ with ‘sales people on the road’ if you think your main customers are businesses) need to have the root password to access some wireless network, or to be able to print out a paper, or to change the date-and-time settings, please just kill yourself now. The world will be a better place,
