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deaf_fish ,

Honestly, if you're a republican, Trump is the only pic. I'm no fan of Republicans, but this is clearly the Republican party punching the Republican populace in the face.

dudinax ,

Honestly, if you’re a republican, Trump is the only pic.

Why?

FinalRemix ,

You haven't been paying much attention to the Republican party as of late, have you? "Circle the wagons and toe the line" has been their schtick for a while now.

deaf_fish ,

Best polling to beat Biden. If you want to win or to get conservative laws passed, that is the way. Last time Trump was president, he put in a bunch of conservative judges, he has a track record.

dudinax ,

Biden only won because he ran against Trump. Put Biden up against an even half-way reasonable Republican and he's toast.

deaf_fish ,

I don't disagree, which Republican candidate has better polling than Trump?

ramenshaman ,

If I for some reason were a republican I would have voted for Chris Christie.

madcaesar ,

Sadly, it's probably their least insane option.

tostiman ,
@tostiman@sh.itjust.works avatar

I think DeSantis might be even worse

sagrotan ,
@sagrotan@lemmy.world avatar

Rhonda?

VikingHippie ,

Damn you! Now that abominable song is stuck in my head and probably will be for the rest of the day! 🤦

samus12345 ,
@samus12345@lemmy.world avatar

No, that's Santis.

nexguy ,
@nexguy@lemmy.world avatar

Not possible. Desantis is too intelligent. No one can be like Trump. No one would risk being so immature and childish. Trump doesn't risk it because he is that way naturally. Ramaswamy tried but he is a mature person trying to act like Trump which never works.

Eldritch ,
@Eldritch@lemmy.world avatar

Trump's stupidity is his saving grace. People think he's the worst president we may have ever had. But people also fail to recognize the fact that Trump would never have gotten anything done, if not for Republican assistance. Trump is a clownish symptom. Not the problem. Republicans are the problem. And they have been ever since. FDR cut a deal with fascist Republicans back in the 1930s.

endhits ,

He absolutely is. Anyone who thinks Trump is worse is caught up in the media slop. DeSantis is worse.

Chriswild ,

Honestly, picking Trump again is a good thing for the rest of us. We know he can lose and because of the last presidential election and his base is just getting smaller.

It's not like any Republican is a good candidate. All of them think abortion is a crime and will appoint shit supreme court justices. So give me the one I know loses because they lost before.

Windex007 ,

None of the other candidates had a chance at winning. That is not the same as Trump having a chance at losing.

panchzila ,

I think he is implying that trump has already lost an election.

Chriswild ,

As long as everyone who voted before votes again it's just the same result because neither candidate is running on anything new.

VikingHippie ,

Biden BARELY beat him the first time around and conditions are WORSE this time around:

1: The electorate has a ridiculously short memory and aren't currently suffering from Trump being president.

2: Related to but distinct from 1, Biden's main strategy of "at least I'm not the other guy" is much less effective for an incumbent than a challenger.

3: Biden is currently alienating a large part of his own base by supporting two seperate genocides (Gaza and Yemen), one of which Democrats actually care about even when there's a Dem president.

Don't get me wrong, I REALLY want him to win since he's by far the lesser evil, but for the above reasons and others, there's a significant risk of him actually losing if the traitor isn't disqualified as he should be

Chriswild ,

Biden won by nearly 7 million votes with a 62% of votes under 30 years old and 52% under 45 years old.

Actually the only age group he didn't win with was 65+ and they're the ones dropping faster and faster each month.

So you're assuming people will take Trump over Biden because he was involved in genocide when he was involved in 8 years of drone strike champion before he ran in 2020.

VikingHippie ,

He won the popular vote by a smaller percentage of votes cast than Hillary and the Dem candidate winning the sub-45yo vote is pretty much a given. In most elections, it would be by much more.

As for the 65+ group, a lot of fascists and people who don't consider fascism more of a deal breaker than a (D) behind a name are aging into that group, perhaps as many as are dying off.

And no, I'm not assuming anything. I'm pointing out that there's a big risk of the pro-democracy candidate losing if he and the rest of the DNC don't stop thinking that "Not Trump" is enough and start listening to what the public wants.

Chriswild ,

I don't know how to explain to you that you just agreed with me.

You agree that young people vote dem

You agree old people are dying off

But you think Dems will be held accountable by voters by electing a worse candidate for them just to spite the Dems? .

People will take the best option they are provided and 2020 had the highest voter turnout since 1900 for sleepy creepy Joe.

VikingHippie ,

You obviously have a lot more faith in the rationality of voters than I do, in spite of the whole gestures at entire world thing.

In stead of pointing out details, I'm just gonna hope that your faith will be rewarded in a little under 11 months and wish you a nice day.

GiveMemes ,

"I don't have an argument, but I can't handle being wrong, so I wrote this to ensure the safety of my ego"

VikingHippie ,

No. I was about to refute their misconceptions point by point but decided it wasn't worth the effort since we're ostensibly on the same side and nothing I or anyone else can say would convince them.

Same with you, it seems, so unless you actually have something to add, I suggest you take your conclusion jumping elsewhere.

GiveMemes ,

Please do try. I'd like to see you show how hilariously out of your element you are trying to prove something to a bunch of randos on the internet :)

Classic conservative playbook... as soon as somebody proves you wrong or even just argues well against your points, you make a short comment indicating that the time for discussion has passed and that you've already won.

It's a well documented strategy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmVkJvieaOA&t=0

Enjoy your astroturfing

VikingHippie ,

hilariously out of your element

Says the one who calls me a

conservative

Dude, can't you read? I clearly said that Biden's the lesser evil by far and that the Trump presidency was a catastrophe.

I'm not calling Biden an evil because I think he's too far left. I'm calling him an evil because he's way too far right and way too authoritarian. Dude loves cops and the fascist apartheid state Israel, just like Trump does.

GiveMemes ,

I still think you're a conservative, just the kind that wears a Mao t-shirt instead of a Reagan one...

Also go look up what astroturfing means

VikingHippie ,

I still think you're a conservative, just the kind that wears a Mao t-shirt instead of a Reagan one.

That would make me a tankie. Tankies are super authoritarian and I'm the opposite. That's one of the things I dislike about Biden, remember?

I tend to occupy a very wide field between European style Social Democrat to Left Libertarian bordering on anarchism, depending on the specific subject.

Always on the "no such thing as inherent authority" end of the axis where Biden's at the "cops are great" end, though.

Also go look up what astroturfing means

I'm well aware of campaigns disguising themselves as grassroots when in actuality some very rich people are behind it.

Ironically, every campaign of The Senator From MBNA has been more or less astroturfing.

GiveMemes , (edited )

Claims not to be conservative

Quotes conservative media

Since when has Joe Biden been marketed as a grassroots candidate? Sorry, but the 90s were like 30 years ago buddy.

I literally just started this comment chain to troll, but now I'm genuinely worried about your critical thinking skills.

VikingHippie ,

Quotes conservative media

The fuck I did! Conservatives didn't coin that nickname, progressives did! Progressives pointing out that he was suspiciously helpful to a major campaign donor to the detriment of regular people.

Since when has Joe Biden been marketed as a grassroots candidate?

Since every time they've portrayed him as just a regular middle class man of the people friend of union workers, none of which he actually is.

I'm genuinely worried about your critical thinking skills

Right back at you, shitlib. Have the day you deserve.

GiveMemes ,

Your anger is futile.

That nickname was coined by a conservative news article and outlet - go look it up.

Politicians are always going to be depicted as men of the people. That's not what astroturfing is... you should brush up on the term.

I hope you have a much better day than you deserve 💛. It seems like you're going through some stuff

VikingHippie ,

Your anger is futile.

Aww it's cute that you think your bullshit is crafty enough to rile me up lol. My use of emphatic language is out of bafflement, not anger.

go look it up.

Nope. Not going to spend the time and effort looking up YOUR claim. YOU provide a source or stfu.

Btw, even IF it bizarrely turns out that the notoriously pro-business and anti-consumer conservatives were the ones who came up with it, that doesn't change the context and meaning which I'm using it.

That's not what astroturfing is... you should brush up on the term.

I literally defined the term for you. Unlike you, I'm fully aware of what it means. You're acting like Vizzini from The Princess Bride with his constant misuse of "inconceivable!"

It seems like you're going through some stuff

If by that you mean "wasting time and effort trying to talk sense into a Dunning Kruger poster boy", then yeah. I have bad impulse control that sometimes makes me keep answering when bad faith arguing idiots adress me directly even though I know it's a bad idea.

In conclusion: you started out with nonsense and if anything just got worse from there. Please leave me alone.

GiveMemes ,

https://images.app.goo.gl/JYKt6QCGzkXbfeQL6

Anticorp ,

Things are not worse. Life for the average American is significantly better now than it was in 2020. I guess everyone's already forgotten the shambles our society was in during the 2020 election?

VikingHippie ,

I meant that his ELECTION prospects are worse, in part BECAUSE life in general is better and many have forgotten just how awful it used to be.

It's much easier to get elected on "we know he's not the most exciting candidate, but at least he's better than the one ruining your life right now" than on "we know he's been underwhelming but at least he hasn't been catastrophic like the one who used to ruin your life"

Anticorp ,

Gotcha. Thanks for clarifying.

Fosheze ,

Except Bidens base is also getting smaller. The whole funding a genocide thing isn't exactly winning him any supporters.

Chriswild ,

I'm judging bases on data about ages and death. You're judging bases on feelings from social media.

Anticorp ,

He's not funding a "genocide thing". The US has subsidized Israel for decades. Not yanking all of our support because they responded to a terrorist attack on their civilian population is not the same as "funding a genocide thing".

Fosheze ,

To clear up my initial comment.

...the whole "funding a genocide" thing...

Also yes, imprisoning a civilian population in a location and then bombing that location is genocide. They are clearly and deliberately exterminating civilians. The fact that we didn't remove all support the instant they started doing that is appalling.

Also before you even start with the whole "hamas is using the cavilians as human shields." Yes, they are. But that doesn't mean Israels solution of "kill them all and let god sort them out" is remotely acceptable.

Anticorp ,

But that doesn't mean Israels solution of "kill them all and let god sort them out" is remotely acceptable.

I completely agree with you there. The whole situation is fucked up, and neither side is making any effort to take the high road. I get that the hamas doesn't have that luxury, being underdog rebels and all, but it's not like their goals are benevolent either. One of their stated goals is the complete destruction of Israel, and the Jews. Israel, being the well armed and well funded nation, should be taking steps to respond in an ethical manner, but they're sinking to the goals of their enemies. Or maybe those were always their goals anyways, and the hamas attack gave them an excuse. I don't pretend to be an expert on Israel Hamas relations. I just don't think that Biden can be judged too harshly for not immediately yanking decades of history with Israel. For one, if the US stops supporting Israel, Israel will likely cease to exist shortly afterwards. Anyways, I'm going way off the original topic, so I apologize for that. The overall point I'm trying to make is that I agree with you, but acknowledge the complexity of the situation.

Alsephina , (edited )

One of their stated goals is the complete destruction of [...] the Jews.

False under their 2017 Hamas charter:

"16. Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine. Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity."

And can you blame them for conflating zionists with jews, when the ethnostate that has been slaughtering and oppressing the Palestinian people has been trying to do precisely that for the past 70+ years, and is backed by the world superpower as they try to do so?

Hamas's tactics aren't much different from the Viet Cong's; attacking villages, taking hostages, and using tunnels and guerilla warfare. These are simply the most effective methods of driving out an occupying entity, and wouldn't be necessary if the colony wasn't there in the first place.

They have also done a far better job at avoiding killing children than Israel. The final death toll from the Oct 7 attack is now thought to be 695 Israeli "civilians" (mostly unarmed IDF conscripts), 373 armed IDF members, 71 foreigners and 36 children. While Israel has killed 22,000 Palestinians, 2/3 of whom are women and children.

Anticorp , (edited )

Okay, so they want to destroy Israel, and Zionists, which they conflate with the Jewish people. It's kind of splitting hairs. No? If their only issue was opposition to Israeli occupation, then it would be a lot easier to sympathize with them, but they are a Muslim extremist organization that wants the destruction of Israel.

Since its creation in December 1987, Hamas has invoked militant interpretations of Islam to spearhead a Sunni extremist movement committed to destroying Israel.

That comes from this website , but can be found just about anywhere. Even your own document lists this opposition:

The establishment of “Israel” is entirely illegal and contravenes the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people and goes against their will and the will of the Ummah

To be clear, I think the human rights violations perpetrated in Gaza are atrocious. The bombing of civilians and civilian targets is awful. But Hamas isn't some benevolent organization that is taking a beating through no fault of their own, and they would perpetrate the same or worse against Israel if they had the power to do so.

It's surprising to me that there's so much pandering to Hamas on this website, from a group of people who are generally vehemently opposed to religion, and especially religious extremism. Hamas are religious extremists, with a violent perspective towards outsiders, and an abusive relationship with women. Ultimately what I'm saying is that what Israel is doing is wrong. Full-stop. Also, the goals of Hamas are wrong. Full-stop. That said, Biden's involvement is circumstantial, since he inherited a government with a history of aid to Israel, and has merely not revoked it. I support Bernie's proposition yesterday, to require the US Secretary of State to report on Israel's humanitarian violations or withhold their aid. Unfortunately the Senate voted overwhelmingly against that measure, 71-11, if my memory serves correctly.

Alsephina ,

Zionists, which they conflate with the Jewish people. It's kind of splitting hairs. No?

First, see my previous comment regarding the current Hamas charter. And second, you do realize saying that separating Jewish people from zionists is like "splitting hairs" is anti-semetic right? And that's literally what the israeli government wants people to do.

organization that wants the destruction of Israel.

Of course. "Israel" itself is a western colony in Palestine, and colonies have no right to exist. Its formation used common british colonization tactics [III], with companies literally named "Colonization Commission", "Jewish Colonial Trust" and the like.

Theodor Herzl, founder of the colonial ideology he called "zionism", was himself also just a racist colonizer by his own admission, and saw it as bringing ‘civilization’ to ‘barbarians’ as the rest of Europe did when they were colonizing and enslaving Africa and Asia:

“We should there form a portion of a rampart of Europe against Asia, an outpost of civilization as opposed to barbarism. We should as a neutral State remain in contact with all Europe, which would have to guarantee our existence.” Source [II]

That's exactly what's happening right now, all for US and European capitalist interests in the region, no matter how many people die in the process.

Zionist leaders fully acknowledged that Palestinian demographics were a core issue to the Zionist project, that the Palestinian population had to be removed at any cost, which is exactly what Israel did. What lead to the Palestinians being defenseless in this situation? Colonial Britain abetted the formation of heavily armed Zionist militias with soldiers numbering in the tens of thousands. The arms of Britain’s colonial military presence were inherited by the Zionist forces that it supported. All this while Britain summarily excecuted any Palestinian found in possession of a firearm.

This is not to mention the enthusiastic support of european antisemites for the Zionist project, or its strict early opposition by antifascist jews.

The idea that Israel has any right to exist on Palestinian land is a lie that has been so heavily proliferated, it has to be debunked when it should be paid no consideration at all.

From the PFLP's 1969 Strategy For the Liberation of Palestine (very good read):

The Palestinian liberation movement is not a racial movement with aggressive intentions against the Jews. It is not directed against the Jews. Its object is to destroy the state of Israel as a military, political and economic establishment that rests on aggression, expansion and organic connection with imperialist interests in our homeland. It is against Zionism as an aggressive racial movement connected with imperialism, which has exploited the sufferings of the Jews as a stepping stone for the promotion of its interests and the interests of imperialism in this part of the world that possesses rich resources (the middle east and its oil) and provides a bridgehead into the countries of Africa and Asia.

.

It's surprising to me that there's so much pandering to Hamas on this website, from a group of people who are generally vehemently opposed to religion, and especially religious extremism.

Because this is a lefty platform. We don't like religions, but we're not about to tell people that have been oppressed and killed for generations to not use it as an organizing and political tool to fight against colonialism and imperialism.

The Iranian Islamic revolution of 1979 overthrowing the US-backed monarchy was also deeply religious, and resulted in a drastically improved quality of life for everyone in the nation. Total literacy in Iran has also from 47% to 93% and female literacy has gone from 37% to 87%.

Anticorp ,

And second, you do realize saying that separating Jewish people from zionists is like "splitting hairs" is anti-semetic right?

That wasn't my opinion. What I read in their charter that you shared is that they associate all of Israel with Zionism. So their statement that they don't want the destruction of the Jews, only the destruction of Zionism and Israel, is semantics. If they state that all of Israel is Zionist, and Israel is the home of the Jewish people, then they are still advocating the destruction of the Jewish people. That's what I meant by "splitting hairs".

What do you propose? The Jewish people have just as much right to exist as every other people. They have a long and storied history in that region, and eons long conflict with Palestine. This isn't their first time occupying that region. So how is Palestine's claim to the entire region of Israel more legitimate than Israel's claim? Just because they have been there without Israel more recently? I do agree that Israel should pull out of Palestine, but I don't agree that that includes the entire territory of their whole nation.

The Iranian Islamic revolution of 1979 overthrowing the US-backed monarchy was also deeply religious, and resulted in a drastically improved quality of life for everyone in the nation.

I strongly disagree. Women lost the majority of their rights because of that revolution, and live heavily oppressed now. People lost a lot of their liberty, and they're subject to religious law, which is imposed upon them. My best friend's wife is from Iran. Her parents still live in Iran. She has a very large family, all of whom I am close with, and not a single one of them views the Islamic State of Iran as an improvement to the conditions in the country prior to the revolution. Granted, their opinions aren't necessarily representative of every person in Iran, but they're as close as I can personally get to that situation. I trust their judgement and intellect, so I tend to believe the things they tell me.

We're getting further away from the actual topic of discussion though, which was that Biden is funding and supporting genocide. I think I've already made my position on that clear, so I won't burden you with it again.

I appreciate you taking the time to share your perspective with me, and discuss this in a civilized manner.

Alsephina ,

So their statement that they don't want the destruction of the Jews, only the destruction of Zionism and Israel, is semantics.

A government is not the people, specially not when it's the government of a colony.

What do you propose?

My opinion is the same as that of the PFLP's book on the subject (again, great read, I suggest you go through it); until the inherently colonial and imperialist "state" of Israel is abolished, the oppression of the Palestinian people will not end.

The Palestinian liberation movement is not a racial movement with aggressive intentions against the Jews. It is not directed against the Jews. Its object is to destroy the state of Israel as a military, political and economic establishment that rests on aggression, expansion and organic connection with imperialist interests in our homeland. It is against Zionism as an aggressive racial movement connected with imperialism, which has exploited the sufferings of the Jews as a stepping stone for the promotion of its interests and the interests of imperialism in this part of the world that possesses rich resources and provides a bridgehead into the countries of Africa and Asia.

The aim of the Palestinian liberation movement is to establish a democratic national state in which both Arabs and Jews will live as citizens with equal rights and obligations and that will constitute an integral part of the progressive democratic Arab national presence living peacefully with all forces of progress in the world.

.

This isn't their first time occupying that region

That was 1400 years ago. You do realize this doesn't at all justify colonialism in the modern day, right? By this logic, could Chinese Americans and Indian Americans return to China and India and lay claim to those countries?

Even the racist colonizer that founded zionism didn't try to use that as justification, and admitted full well that this is just colonization, as per my previous comment.

I do agree that Israel should pull out of Palestine, but I don't agree that that includes the entire territory of their whole nation.

Again, the entirety of Israel is an irredeemable fascist, imperialist ethnocolony founded on slaughtering natives, has been ethnically cleansing them throughout its entire existence, and is currently committing a genocide. Would you support the existence of Nazi Germany in any way, shape or form? Though it arguably does somewhat live on through modern Germany, seeing as how they're also supporting the ongoing genocide.

Muslims, Jews, and Christians were already living in Palestine before Europe stated colonizing it. Decolonization of the region doesn't necessarily have to mean the displacement of people already living in the colony. It would simply mean the removal of the fascist state and any control that the US and Europe have over it; as long as a separate government exists, these imperialist nations will exploit it. Again, referring to the PFLP:

The aim of the Palestinian liberation movement is to establish a democratic national state in which both Arabs and Jews will live as citizens with equal rights and obligations and that will constitute an integral part of the progressive democratic Arab national presence living peacefully with all forces of progress in the world.

Anticorp ,

The aim of the Palestinian liberation movement is to establish a democratic national state in which both Arabs and Jews will live as citizens with equal rights and obligations and that will constitute an integral part of the progressive democratic Arab national presence living peacefully with all forces of progress in the world.

That sounds great! That sounds like a solution. Unfortunately it's not a very realistic one, especially since they're a religious extremist group, and I don't imagine their view of democracy to be actual democracy, nor can I imagine them supporting a separation of church and state. If that's the case, then it just results in the same situation, but with the actors swapped, and the Jewish people living under Muslim oppression. Idk about you man, but I feel that the Jews have suffered at the hands of extremist groups enough for one people. But hey, maybe my assumptions are wrong, and they would legitimately establish a free and fair democracy. That would be an amazing resolution to the problem. But since we know it's a multi-national problem, with Europe, the USA, and several Middle Eastern countries all wanting a piece of the pie, it seems very implausible. It's a nice hope though, and I think most actual people would support it.

Alsephina ,

Yeah if your response to that is to keep bringing up their "religion" (the last avenue for liberal internalized racism; as conservatives bring up "culture") of the people currently being slaughtered, you're too far gone.

Anticorp ,

It is a huge driving force and a major part of their motivations. You can't ignore it, and raising concerns about it is not racist. It's not even a statement about race, it's about religion. Rather than acknowledging it is a valid concern, you call me a racist? Okay then. I guess the conversation is over. Thanks for sharing your viewpoints though. You did raise valid points, and I felt that we were communicating well, and pretty much in agreement at the end there. Cheers.

Edit: and in case it was somehow unclear, I already stated that I think Israel should be held accountable for their human rights violations, and I think the situation over there is an enormous tragedy.

Alsephina ,

What a fucking disgusting comment

YeetPics ,
@YeetPics@mander.xyz avatar

It's almost like Israel and the US are strategic allies and would help each other no matter who the president was.

If you're .ml I'm sure you'll downvote this. I'd be mad if reality was in staunch opposition to my narrative too.

Alsephina , (edited )

Is that why this zionist piece of shit went as far as to bypass congress so Israel could get its weapons to commit genocide faster?

You are partially right; the nation built on slavery and imperialism will indeed continue to support colonialism until its capitalist government is overthrown entirely, but an openly zionazi pos like Biden makes that support even worse, as we can already see with the ongoing genocide.

I'd be mad if reality was in staunch opposition to my narrative

Ig you should indeed be mad then.

YeetPics , (edited )
@YeetPics@mander.xyz avatar

My narrative is as follows:

Blah blah fucking blah, america has always been an imperialist shit-hole. Slavery and nonsensical governing since the start. Are you shocked by this?

Are you shocked allies back each other? Did you make this same complaint before October 7th or are you just another bandwagon moral-elitist?

Do you think I'm championing this behavior by stating facts? You're delusional mate.

Alsephina ,

Imagine being such a fucking loser that all you can think of in response to that is basically "nuh uh". You could only come up with adding "Blah blah fucking blah" to that? What a child lmao

Are you shocked allies back each other?

Read the comment you're replying to.

Did you make this same complaint before October 7th

Yes, as did anyone with half a braincell. Evidently you're not one of them though.

Do you think I’m championing this behavior by stating facts?

Refer to the facts in the comment you're replying to.

You're delusional mate

Yeah, you clearly are.

YeetPics ,
@YeetPics@mander.xyz avatar

Yesssss, attack me personally with insults, I love it.

Your stance is so true and rock solid that you're resorting to calling me names including (ironically considering your behavior) calling me a child when your opinions gets any push back.

Typical.

Alsephina ,

Removed the "insults" that hurt you so much:

all you can think of in response to that is basically "nuh uh". You could only come up with adding "Blah blah fucking blah" to that?

Are you shocked allies back each other?

Read the comment you're replying to.

Did you make this same complaint before October 7th

Yes, as did anyone with half a braincell. Evidently you're not one of them though.

Do you think I’m championing this behavior by stating facts?

Refer to the facts in the comment you're replying to.

You're delusional mate

Yeah, you clearly are.

YeetPics ,
@YeetPics@mander.xyz avatar

Wait I thought I said I love the insults. Your mask slipped LMAO.

Alsephina ,

Damn for a masochist you sure do like complaining about the "insults" while ignoring everything else though.

Also, you don't have to go out of your way to downvote, no one's scrolling this low.

YeetPics ,
@YeetPics@mander.xyz avatar

Masochist? Complaining? You're either projecting or are a very bad troll.

I said I loved the insults (in lieu of a factual debate) once LMAO. grasp at those straws little piggy.

Typical .ml liberal.

Alsephina ,

Still waiting for you to come up with anything beyond "LMAO"

YeetPics ,
@YeetPics@mander.xyz avatar

You'll be waiting for a good long while. Consider taking up a hobby or something productive for your own sake.

Arelin ,

Funny thread, figures you don't actually have anything of substance to say ig lol

YeetPics ,
@YeetPics@mander.xyz avatar

Figures you'd be so self centered you think everyone needs to dance at your whim.

Grow up. Lol

Arelin ,

Think you've gotten me confused with op? Anyway yeah it's funny seeing libs like you never have anything to back up their worthless opinions

YeetPics ,
@YeetPics@mander.xyz avatar

Okay, lib.

Arelin ,

Sure lib lol

YeetPics ,
@YeetPics@mander.xyz avatar

🎶We are the two best libs that anyone could have

The two best libs that anyone could have🎶

Albatross2724 ,

Ew, a Nazi

Anticorp ,

Do you even know what that means? It seems unlikely.

Albatross2724 ,

Do you even know what that means?

Supports a fascist, far-right regime built upon an ideology rooted in white supremacy, that has been engaged in genocide and ethnic cleansing for the past 70 plus years

It seems unlikely you have the capacity to see anything outside your heavily indoctrinated zionist viewpoint.

Anticorp ,

Yeah, none of those statements represent my opinion. Quite the opposite actually.

xarexyouxmadx ,

This is just American voters in general every single election. Vote red. Vote blue. Doesn't matter. It just keeps getting worse.

undercrust ,

BoTh SiDeS!!1!!!!1

xarexyouxmadx ,

It's all one side. I know fans of each party like to twist themselves in knots to find daylight between them but outside of the culture war nonsense & which brand of idpol they subscribe to, the distance between them has only gotten smaller with every passing election in my lifetime.

The supposed solution to trump and the gop (who was labeled a dangerous madman that would get us into ww3) was to elect Biden and the Democrats

What has happened since?

  • Provoke Russia
  • Provoke China
  • Provoke Iran
  • Arm Nazis in Ukraine
  • Aid "Israel" in their genocide

All while their own citizens continue to struggle with basics like food & shelter.

Will republicans be happy to continue all of these? 100%. But let's not pretend there's some grand meaningful difference between them unless your most important issues fall within the category of the culture war in which case you must be doing pretty well.

naught ,

If you actually compared the policy positions of both parties around foreign policy, taxation, healthcare, education, gun control.... the list goes on -- you would know that this argument is disingenuous at best.

Blue_Morpho ,

Arm Nazis in Ukraine

The Russian special forces was called Wagner after Hitler's favorite musician.

The Z emblem of Russian forces is part of a Russian swastika motif that their military wears.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z_(military_symbol)#/media/File%3ADSHRG_Rusich_patch_during_2022_Ukraine_war.png

Russia used Hitler named units and swastika patches on their uniforms while calling the defenders Nazis. That's crazy.

fadingembers ,
@fadingembers@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

At least one of the parties isn't trying to wipe LGBT people off the map. What you call "culture war nonsense" is a very real threat to those affected by the hundreds upon hundreds of legislation being proposed and passed every year

Alsephina ,

They're both right-wing parties that don't give a fuck about the working class lol; they're on the same side.

And the supposedly "lesser evil" one is currently openly funding and supporting a genocide (even going as far as to bypass congress to do so) and is openly a zionazi.

There is no representation of the other (leftist) side in the US, and there will never be until the system itself, that's specifically designed to prevent that and serve Capital instead, is overthrown.

explodicle ,

We could vote for things to actually get better, but mostly throw our votes away on worse instead.

inb4 "clearly you don't get the myopic logic that brought us here"

Linkerbaan ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

What a hyperbole. This two party thing has only been going on for 150 years. If Biden wins next time everything is going to be fixed trust.

YeetPics ,
@YeetPics@mander.xyz avatar

Haha still a 1000x better chance than if we get trump the Genocide Supporter ©

Lmaydev ,

It's funny, they say fascism happens in slow motion and no one expects it to actually happen until it's to late.

I really feel like we're watching it happen in America.

Everyone's laughing at Trump's stupidity while the systems to stop fascism are slowly destroyed behind the scenes.

Feels like he's just a distraction from what's actually happening.

DragonTypeWyvern ,

I keep saying it, but no one wants to join my radical and poorly regulated militia so this will be everyone else's fault.

VikingHippie ,

my radical and poorly regulated militia

Talk about fighting fire with fire!

tigeruppercut ,
@tigeruppercut@lemmy.zip avatar

No one's laughing at trump's shit anymore. Anyone with at least a lukewarm iq and even a cursory knowledge of history can see his fascism. It's just the system is rigged to give regressive areas more voting power

Anafabula ,
@Anafabula@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

You don't even need any of that, he explicitly told everyone that he's gonna be a dictator

Anticorp ,

Eh, that's not what he said. Sure, yes, he said those words, but if you watch the whole thing it's clear he just can't talk like a normal person. He uses words that cause outrage because they get people riled up, and then he goes on to say what he really means. Although who knows man, he's a total liar, and nothing he says has any value anyways.

What got me about that video was the end. He said "We were doing so well. And we were coming together, and coming together, and it was a beautiful thing. And we're going to do that again.". So he personally acknowledged that we were doing well as a country, and more united, and then he came along and started tearing all that down. We've been going downhill ever since. His entire motto "make America great again" is built on a lie that he just acknowledged right here at the end of the clip. It was already great. It stopped being great when he wouldn't shut his fat fucking anus mouth.

But I can't even really evaluate the things he says without sounding like I'm contradicting myself, because the things he says are contradictory from one statement to another. Idk why I even bothered.

Daft_ish , (edited )

They don't say shit in good faith my friend. His whole thing is to say stuff that makes his followers react and exhausts anyone trying to pin him down on anything. Contrary to what anyone thinks he isn't fooling anyone. His rube followers are just happy he's upsetting everyone and wont hold him to a single thing. Everyone else is just tired of his shtick.

The GOP is done veiling their ideas and power plays but it's not like they are being honest. The political equivalent of yelling jibberish at the top of your lungs when someone asks you a simple question. Sad part is the media feeds on it somehow.

Anticorp ,

That's a very good assessment that I completely agree with.

manuallybreathing ,

complaining about the rise of fascism

infers anyone who's not going to vote fascism away is a dunce

mentions lukewarm iq

mentioning iq at all

guess there's just a predetermined, genetic based, level of intelligence hey mate? scratch a liberal, a fascist bleeds, comrades.

I'm not American, I dont get a vote, I laugh at trump, and all of America, to keep myself from crying.

The_Lopen ,

What does this add to the conversation?

MolochAlter ,

Boy, if there is a predetermined level of intelligence, you sure fucking pulled the short straw on that to take a simple turn of phrase and read that entire fucking reach into it.

But then again you're a tankie so that's not surprising.

obinice ,
@obinice@lemmy.world avatar

Yup, not to say that my country is doing much better or anything, but looking over at the USA it's almost comical how extremely clear their decline into fascism and decay is. It'd almost be funny if it weren't so serious.

Unfortunately it's not hard to see a future where the rest of the world have to fight a war against some future form of christiofascist white supremacist USA.

Not next year or the year after of course, but within my lifetime for sure. People forget how quickly some nations go from progressive and democratic to straight up Third Reich.

It takes a shockingly short amount of time once the slow burn has laid the ground work over the initial decades. The slow burn we're watching now.

MrVilliam ,

Yeah but this slow burn is already like ten years old. The fascists demand retribution for us daring to elect Obama. As soon as they saw the light at the end of that tunnel, they said never again.

If conservatives become convinced that they can not win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. The will reject democracy. (David Frum)

Anticorp , (edited )

Against Christofascists sure. I don't see any actual white supremacy coming out of the USA. It is far too blended of a country now. Everyone knows someone, is related to someone, or involved with someone of varying races. Our friends, our families, and our lovers are all races. Sure, there will be little hate groups still, but white people are quickly losing ground to non-whites, and the government is very inter-racial. Whites are already a minority in California, and set to become minorities nationwide by 2045.

But the Christofacism is a very real threat, and the US military is a monumental behemoth of monstrous proportions. Woe to all if the Christofascists gain unchecked power.

grue ,

I got banned from a web forum in 2015 for calling Trump a fascist. This shit should not have been any sort of surprise to anybody paying attention.

LillyPip , (edited )

It does happen in slow motion, and every single time, some people see it happening. They march and wave their arms shouting FASCISM! whilst their neighbours call them hyperbolic.

If you read contemporaneous accounts, you can feel the frustration.

Or… I thought I could feel the frustration, until recently (eta: if you haven’t read They Thought They Were Free by Milton Mayer, please do as soon as possible). Now it’s doubly frustrating. I keep wracking my brain, wondering what I can do that they didn’t. I can’t stop this, so I keep saying ‘if you were a German in the 1930s, knowing what you know now, what would you do?’

I don’t know the answer to that. I know many Germans saw it coming and couldn’t stop it.

What the fuck can we do? Because it is absolutely coming.

e: oh, and worse, trump isn’t actually the problem. He’ll likely lose, then everyone will high five that we’ve defeated The Problem, but Trump is just their carnival barker. He could die tomorrow and the threat wouldn’t change. There’s a solid fascist movement in the US and elsewhere that will not stop with trump’s defeat. There are thousands of them in high levels of the US government , and they’ll barely miss a beat without trump. He barely matters, and I’m afraid when he loses, the fascist movement behind this will find a wide opening.

Anticorp ,

I keep wracking my brain, wondering what I can do that they didn’t

These internal questions are what led to me finally realizing how powerless I really am. I can't even convince my close personal friends to re-evaluate the batshit crazy things they learn online, let alone change the trajectory of a nation.

SwampYankee ,

What's frustrating is that anyone can find a piece of evidence for their argument, and there are propagandists everywhere offering up grand narratives full of such evidence. So when someone is extremely concerned about children getting sex changes, and you say something to the effect of "that's not really happening" they'll just come back at you with a few examples and you're like "yeah but a few examples isn't a statistical trend and you're blowing this way out of proportion" and then they call you a groomer. Like, I'm not okay with it, but also it's not something that we need to be specifically worried about and build an entire political movement around. Like children get attacked by sharks occasionally (probably more often than they get sex changes), but there's no mass political movement to shame parents who encourage their kids to swim in known shark habitats.

Anticorp ,

and then they call you a groomer

Unfortunately this is the state of discourse online these days. You can see it all over this and every site. Any time someone says something that someone else disagrees with, it's only one or two steps before the baseless accusations begin. Just this morning someone called me a Nazi. No discussion or anything, just accused me of being a Nazi because of a position I took on a complex and layered situation. I couldn't be further from a Nazi. But you know... Once they put you on the defensive, then you're not discussing the issue anymore, which is what they want.

fossilesque ,
@fossilesque@mander.xyz avatar

Not an answer, but food for thought: https://effectiveactivist.com/

zip ,

Oooh, neat! Thank you so much for linking this!

Anticorp ,

They're not even bothering with destroying things behind the scenes. They're doing it right out in the open, because nobody has the teeth and cajones to stop them.

FlashMobOfOne ,
@FlashMobOfOne@lemmy.world avatar

It's too late.

Fascism isn't something on the horizon. Look at what is happening in Idaho. Within a year or two half of the US states will have criminalized abortion, and all you hear from federal legislators is how important it is that we shovel more money we don't have into other countries' wars.

It's over.

The only power you or I have left is in our immediate local communities, where you can still accomplish the general good.

MolochAlter ,

TIL fascism is when abortion is banned, and not when systems are put in place to enforce single party rule and violent suppression of political dissent.

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

All of those are aspects of fascism. Restricting individual freedoms is a core part of fascism.

trafficnab ,

Nazi Germany actually had a more liberal view of abortion than the laws that a lot of Republican states are now passing (for reasons that you can probably imagine, but still)

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

Nazi Germany isn't the only form of fascism, and had other individual freedoms even more restricted. Nazi Germany was a far-right, reactionary state that violently suppressed Workers and stripped their freedoms, just like American conservatives are attempting to do and are working towards.

YeetPics ,
@YeetPics@mander.xyz avatar

How liberal was their view of social inequality in regards to varying races?

You DO see how disingenuous your example is, right?

barsoap ,

The Nazi stance on abortion wasn't "liberal", that's ludicrous. It ranged from being forbidden for parents of German blood to encouraged or even forced in other cases, it was all about their ideas of racial hygiene. Not even the GOP is that racist, or can you imagine them mandating abortions for mixed-race couples?

The only case where this might be true is even the ban on abortion for German couples did not mean a ban on abortions in medical cases. German (not just Nazi) law generally considers it, as is proper, self-defence. Honestly I don't think a legal system which doesn't consider it such can consider itself a legal system at all, Radbruch and everything.

MolochAlter ,

Not really, no.

It can be, but fascism is extremely malleable as a template and can absolutely not give a shit about abortion (or even actively encourage/enforce it like china during the one child policy) or any other specific individual freedom.

The ones it really cares about are the ones that allow you to dissent and work against the government, so speech and association.

Fascism is fundamentally authoritarian first; specific social and economic prescriptions are tuned as the party/dictator deem necessary.

That's how you can have red fascism like China and Stalinist Russia, and capitalist fascism like Pinochet's Chile.

The US is never going to properly address its issues until it properly identifies them.

What you're dealing with is not fascism imposed from the top down, it's puritanism endorsed at all strata of society by a significant amount of people who genuinely co-sign it, either because they don't understand the repercussions or because they genuinely don't care.

If you're incapable of understanding that people in those states genuinely support banning abortion, for example, and are not actually being oppressed by a minority of powerful people who are denying them their rights, but are instead actively signing away those rights for the minority who want to keep them, you're never going to be able to effectively change this state of affairs.

crazyCat ,

Sad to see you got some downvotes, your takes here are very technically correct and aware of the big picture and actual facts of the mechanisms.

MolochAlter ,

People hate it when they can't just abuse terms to label people they don't like, unfortunately.

OurToothbrush ,

I hate having to tap the "calling the USSR or other AES states fascist is antisemitic" sign

https://jewishcurrents.org/the-double-genocide-theory

MolochAlter ,

lemmy.ml
USSR apologia

Lmao fuck off tankie, you're scum just like nazis and fascists.

Call me antisemitic some more as if you give a fuck.

OurToothbrush , (edited )

My surviving jewish family were freed from a nazi death camp by the people you call fascists. Equating the two is holocaust trivialization and antisemitic. I literally link you to a well known mainstream Jewish historian and activist about this issue. Do you think David Katz is a "tankie"?

You call me scum equivalent to a nazi in response. Have words lost all meaning to you?

barsoap ,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_Soviet_Union

OurToothbrush ,

Oh my god there was antisemitism in the USSR, even among some leadership! Several doctors got killed!

You're right, a few incidences of antisemitism are the same as the holocaust, or the pogroms that the pre-soviet monarchy backed by western liberal democracies engaged in. Or the antisemitism in the post soviet union liberal democracies. /s

You are a deeply unserious person. And a holocaust trivializer if it "owns the tankies" apparently. Great priorities.

barsoap ,

Can you point me to the exact sentence where I trivialised the holocaust? Hint: I didn't say anything about the holocaust. All I gave you is a link, the rest is your imagination.

You, OTOH, are severely trivialising antisemitism within the USSR. Stop fucking fanboying.

pre-soviet monarchy backed by western liberal democracies

Please fucking what liberal democracies during Tsarist times? England, France, possibly, am I missing one? And none of that antisemitism was home-grown, it was all the fault of those evil foreigners making poor Russian nobles and priests do stuff? The country most busy with fucking with Tsarist Russia, specifically sending Lenin over mind you, was Germany, very much not a liberal democracy. The age of liberal democracies started after WWI.

OurToothbrush ,

Can you point me to the exact sentence where I trivialised the holocaust? Hint: I didn’t say anything about the holocaust. All I gave you is a link, the rest is your imagination.

Oh, so to clarify, you don't think that the USSR could be described as morally equivalent to fascism?

You, OTOH, are severely trivialising antisemitism within the USSR. Stop fucking fanboying.

Only in the sense that it is trivial in scale compared to the alternative socioeconomic systems of the time.

Also a woman, stop being sexist by assuming a male default.

And none of that antisemitism was home-grown, it was all the fault of those evil foreigners making poor Russian nobles and priests do stuff?

During the Russian Civil War the US, Britain and France sure militarily and financially supported those nobles and priests who did pogroms regaining power. They went so far as to invade the USSR. They had previous working relationships with them and wanted them back in power. The nobles and priests were antisemitic, as were their western partners.

barsoap ,

Oh, so to clarify, you don’t think that the USSR could be described as morally equivalent to fascism?

Morally? I'm not talking about morally I'm talking objectively and no of course it was objectively fascist. So was Italy and they didn't do the Holocaust. So is Scientology, in case you're looking for an example of non-racist fascists. So are Kahanites and they definitely aren't antisemitic, being Jews and all that. Your point?

OurToothbrush , (edited )

Morally? I’m not talking about morally I’m talking objectively and no of course it was objectively fascist.

Okay, define fascism in a way that excludes liberal democracies and their colonies or neocolonies but includes the USSR. I dont think you know what fascism is.

So was Italy and they didn’t do the Holocaust.

They literally committed a genocide in Africa as part of their political project, they wanted to basically manifest destiny the Mediterranean, did you not hear about it because the victims weren't (conditionally) white? Do you think they didn't help the Germans do the Holocaust?

is Scientology, in case you’re looking for an example of non-racist fascists. So are Kahanites

Okay this shows me you can't give a coherent definition of fascism. Also imagine not thinking scientology is racist. Lol.

Kahanites and they definitely aren’t antisemitic, being Jews and all that.

Lolol are you seriously going to make that argument? Do I need to pull up photos of Jewish people who collaborated with the nazis?

barsoap ,

Okay, define fascism in a way that excludes liberal democracies and their colonies or neocolonies but includes the USSR. I dont think you know what fascism is.

My definition of fascism is the usual one you'll hear from any anarchist: People who send me to bed. But feel free to read Umberto Eco and observe how the USSR gets a score of 10 out of 14, where of course one would be sufficient for fascism to coalesce. Also how you were all too happy to display rejection of modernism by your implicit dissing of liberal democracies. Please, go ahead, tell me about the grand colonial empire of Estonia! Of Greenland! Of Samoa!

OurToothbrush ,

Umberto Eco and observe how the USSR gets a score of 10 out of 14, where of course one would be sufficient for fascism to coalesce

This is a elementary school misreading of that text, it was explicitly not supposed to be a litmus test.

Also how you were all too happy to display rejection of modernism by your implicit dissing of liberal democracies.

Marxism is literally a modernist philosophy, liberalism is rooted in the enlightenment era. Have you opened a history book in the last 5 years?

Please, go ahead, tell me about the grand colonial empire of Estonia! Of Greenland! Of Samoa!

Marxist democracies > bourgeois oligarchy aka liberal democracy

barsoap ,

Disagreement is treason (elementary school dismissal without argumentative engagement), reference to your precious cult of tradition (Nazism is also modernist you muppet) which you of course misread all the time that's another strike for Newspeak your "Marxist democracy" is neither of the two, lastly the equation of bourgeois oligarchy with liberal democracy (one does not imply the other), that's strike four, obsession with a plot and/or the enemy is simultaneously weak and strong, could go either way. Maybe just popular elitism.

As your lawyer I counsel you to continue posting.

OurToothbrush , (edited )

Disagreement is treason

Source?

reference to your precious cult of tradition

Lol. Yes trying to return to an imagined past and having an intellectual tradition are the same thing /s

By that logic basically all ideology(including yours) is fascism, and to not be a fascist we cannot learn literally anything ever about politics.

(Nazism is also modernist you muppet)

You said I was rejecting modernism by rejecting liberal democracy, which is literally rooted in enlightenment ideas. I was saying you are not making sense, because you are saying I'm rejecting modernism when I'm rejecting enlightenment era ideology.

which you of course misread all the time that’s another strike for Newspeak

How about another strike for literally knowing what words mean and using them properly? You did not say modern, you said modernism. If you didn't want to be misinterpreted, do not use language that conveys an entirely different meaning.

lastly the equation of bourgeois oligarchy with liberal democracy (one does not imply the other), that’s strike four

I wish I had the confidence to make such bold claims with so little knowledge. Have you even ever read about "dictatorship of capital"? Do you even know what that term means? How about you explain it in your own words for me.

obsession with a plot and/or the enemy is simultaneously weak and strong, could go either way. Maybe just popular elitism

Loling at popular elitism.

Also I will never claim that the current state of capitalism is weak.

Also again you are misreading the 14 points as some litmus test.

barsoap ,

Source?

Me. And Eco. You just can't let it go, can you, that someone disagrees with your precious ideology.

Lol. Yes trying to return to an imagined past and having an intellectual tradition are the same thing /s

I never said that. I said that you think that all truth has already been revealed by Marx, Lenin, Stalin, and possibly Mao. At least one of which you misread but that's another topic.

You said I was rejecting modernism by rejecting liberal democracy, which is literally rooted in enlightenment ideas. I was saying you are not making sense, because you are saying I’m rejecting modernism when I’m rejecting enlightenment era ideology.

You are rejecting the rational development that started with the Enlightenment, aka modernism. Nazism and Marxism-Leninism are both part of that and reject it in their own ways, in a sense anticipating post-modernism. Neither are theologies or whatever, both reject democracy, both reject actually scientific socialism, the proper rational strain to follow, aka Anarchism. Something something complexity theory I'll let you do your own research can't be arsed to feed that to a tankie.

Have you even ever read about “dictatorship of capital”?

How's the GINI coefficient where you're from? Maybe that's the reason. Over where I am, struggle-wise, the labour aristocracy is actually kinda more of a headache than capital because capital is so easy to see.

Also again you are misreading the 14 points as some litmus test.

What is the proper application in your mind then, pray tell? Can you explain it?

There's a reason I said "one would be sufficient for fascism to coalesce around", not "one is sufficient for fascism". Otherwise post-modernism would be fascist which makes no sense. At the very least you need an ideological group which corrals around a specific instantiation of those points, a particular way to gloss over the inherent contradictions, really, and engages in political action.

OurToothbrush ,

Me. And Eco. You just can’t let it go, can you, that someone disagrees with your precious ideology.

Eco claims disagreement was treason in the USSR? What supporting evidence does he use?

said that you think that all truth has already been revealed by Marx, Lenin, Stalin, and possibly Mao.

Bwahahahahaha this is really funny, literally reading a book on expanding marxist concepts into the sphere of transness

Marxism is a living intellectual tradition about ruthless critique, which includes of past leaders and thinkers.

You are rejecting the rational development that started with the Enlightenment, aka modernism. Nazism and Marxism-Leninism are both part of that and reject it in their own ways, in a sense anticipating post-modernism. Neither are theologies or whatever, both reject democracy, both reject actually scientific socialism, the proper rational strain to follow, aka Anarchism. Something something complexity theory I’ll let you do your own research can’t be arsed to feed that to a tankie.

Lol, sure, you can define words to mean whatever you want.

On democracy- literally every socialist state has more democracy than bourgeois democracies, because the people are (imperfectly) represented by politicians, the politicians are not there to serve capital.

both reject actually scientific socialism, the proper rational strain to follow, aka Anarchism.

Tell me how your anarchist projects in Catalonia and Ukraine were actually based anti-authoritarians when they did labor and concentration camps. Or when Ukraine was basically a military dictatorship, and enabled kulaks to massacre Jewish people.

Oh, or tell me about your more modern projects (the ones that actually claim to be anarchists, not indigenous resistors in Central America who don't claim to be socialist or anarchist)

"Anarchism is a coat that only leaks when it is wet. "

How’s the GINI coefficient where you’re from? Maybe that’s the reason. Over where I am, struggle-wise, the labour aristocracy is actually kinda more of a headache than capital because capital is so easy to see.

Wait, so your argument is that the labor aristocracy actually controls your country? You are responding to me asking you if you could define dictatorship of capital.

There’s a reason I said “one would be sufficient for fascism to coalesce around”, not “one is sufficient for fascism”.

Then what youre saying holds no water? Sufficient to coalesce around isn't the same as a definition of.

Also Marxism doesn't really fit any single point in the definition.

barsoap ,

Eco claims disagreement was treason in the USSR? What supporting evidence does he use?

I don't even. He wrote about fascism in general, not about specific regimes short of Italy which he uses for some anecdotes, unsurprising given that he's Italian.

The rest of what you wrote makes just as little sense, so goodbye. Talk to me when you're grown up.

OurToothbrush ,

Ah, so we are at the part where the pigeon shits on the chess board, declares victory, and flies off.

brain_in_a_box ,

She asked you to give a definition of fascism that doesn't include the liberal democracies, and you went with "meets some (but not all) of the list from Ur-fascism), a standard that would absolutely include all of the liberal democracies.

barsoap , (edited )

If your liberal democracy puts you into a mental health ward or gulag for your opinion about the system it's not a liberal democracy. ML states OTOH really like to do that. There's an inherent totalitarianism to them, they demand that everyone thinks precisely like some centralised decision organ decides, and you tankies will even defend that. Note here totalitarian vs. authoritarian: Thought itself is controlled, not just practical behaviour (fulfilling the quota won't help you, you still can't complain). That kind of monopolisation of the prerogative of interpretation is a practical sign of fascism, once it is coalesced. The Ur-fascism points are merely crystallisation points.

The very point that you can type all that in (presumably) a liberal democracy without getting disappeared means that you're not living under fascism.

It's really something, MLs having so shit takes that you make me defend liberal democracies.

brain_in_a_box ,

If your liberal democracy puts you into a mental health ward or gulag for your opinion about the system it’s not a liberal democracy.

No True Scotsmen ey?

ML states OTOH really like to do that.

Bold claim; back it up.

There’s an inherent totalitarianism to them, they demand that everyone thinks precisely like some centralised decision organ decides

Well this is just a factually untrue caricature.

and you tankies will even defend that.

I'm not going to defend something that isn't even true.

Thought itself is controlled

You've watched too many sci-fi movies.

That kind of monopolisation of the prerogative of interpretation is a practical sign of fascism, once it is coalesced.

Interesting theory; what do you base it on?

The Ur-fascism points are merely crystallisation points.

No it isn't.

The very point that you can type all that in (presumably) a liberal democracy without getting disappeared means that you’re not living under fascism.

Never said I was; you were the one who articulated a definition of fascism that included liberal democracies.

It’s really something, MLs having so shit takes that you make me defend liberal democracies.

Lol, it doesn't take much.

MolochAlter , (edited )

or the pogroms that the pre-soviet monarchy backed by western liberal democracies

You gotta be fucking trolling, what fucking western liberal democracies? France?

Western Europe was almost all constitutional monarchies until the end of WW2 and even then what fucking backing of Tsarist Russia? Napoleon trying to conquer it centuries before and then Austria Hungary and Prussia trading with it?

Also who the fuck is trivialising the holocaust now by mentioning it in the same breath as pogroms, as if the scale and systematic nature of the former don't make them completely disanalogous?

I reiterate my former point: Fuck off tankie scum.

OurToothbrush ,

You gotta be fucking trolling, what fucking western liberal democracies? France?

The US, Britain. France.

Western Europe was almost all constitutional monarchies until the end of WW2 and even then what fucking backing of Tsarist Russia?

The US, France, Britain, and other countries literally invaded the USSR to try to restore the monarchy.

Also who the fuck is trivialising the holocaust now by mentioning it in the same breath as pogroms, as if the scale and systematic nature of the former don’t make them completely disanalogous?

My point is that the amount of antisemitism in the soviet union wasn't even approaching the level of pogroms, which was much smaller scale than the holocaust.

I reiterate my former point: Fuck off tankie scum.

Why don't you call me woke next, CHUD.

MolochAlter , (edited )

My point is that the amount of antisemitism in the soviet union wasn’t even approaching the level of pogroms, which was much smaller scale than the holocaust.

Right so quantitative arguments are fine when they support your point. Gotcha.

Why don’t you call me woke next, CHUD.

Cause you aren't fucking woke. You fucking wish you were woke.

For one, woke people have at least some good points, unlike you; and for two, woke people don't look for arguments as to why "slightly less deliberately genocidal" is actually not so bad when you think about it.

Love them or hate them, progressives are pretty swift to condemn systematic imperialist genocide in all forms, but for you that would require not being a fucking dictatorship apologist.

Move to Canada, look up MAID, it'll do you good.

MolochAlter , (edited )

Ok, fuck me, you got me mad enough to answer, gr8 b8 m8.

I want this on record that the only reason I am wasting my time replying to your tankie ass (and yes, I checked your post history, you're a tankie, surprising absolutely nobody) is so that if someone runs into this pathetic excuse for a rebuttal they don't believe for a second that I bought this as an actually valid response.

My surviving jewish family were freed from a nazi death camp by the people you call fascists.

  1. Who asked?

  2. Who the fuck cares, and for that matter who the fuck believes a rando on the internet just happens to have the right personal anecdote to pull rank in an online conversation? Fuck off with that shit. If I told you my wife is jewish and her grandfather died in Auschwitz would you believe me? Would it make you reconsider the validity of my argument? Of course it fucking wouldn't.

  3. What does conquering and breaking up an enemy installation have to do with what form of governance is running a country? The soviets broke up auschwitz because they broke up every installation they ran across, as you do when conquering enemy land. That has nothing to do with whether stalinist Russia was or wasn't a fascist shithole.

Not all fascist regimes committed the holocaust. Most of them have committed genocides, and yes that very much includes the soviets, but talking about Fascism at large is not an invitation to barge in, well-achshually-ing as if the only fascist regimes to ever exist were the fucking Axis in WW2, no matter how much your obvious commie ass would like to believe that.

Hell the Axis didn't even include all the explicitly fascist countries of the time, (since Franco's Spain wasn't in it) let alone all of the ones that came and went since.

I literally link you to a well known mainstream Jewish historian and activist about this issue.

Sure, and? Neither being well known, mainstream, nor an activist are indicators of your understanding of political theory and the specific meanings and ideologies behind currents.

Technically speaking fucking Alex Jones is a well known mainstream activist if you go by raw numbers and popularity, and i doubt his opinion is worth listening to.

But even then, you absolutely shat the bed on linking the guy because, spoilers: I never even brought up the holocaust until this point, nor have I compared it to the holodomor and other genocides.

Nor would I, because I am not a fucking idiot.

No part of any definition of fascist requires the genocidal zeal the nazis exhibited, and if it makes you feel better I will fucking happily concede that Hitler's bloodlust is still undefeated in both unyieldingness and devotion.

Doesn't change jack shit about the definition of fascism or whether the soviets and maoists fit it, unfortunately for you.

Do you think David Katz is a “tankie”?

I have no idea who that is, nor do I care.

Ok, I lied, you got me curious, and you conveniently misspelled his name.

Because when looking up David Katz you find a highly distinguished history professor at Brandeis, but actually you linked one Dovid Katz whose academic background has fuckall to do with history since he's a fucking philologist.

So, do I think he's a tankie?

No, I don't think so.

Is his arguing against comparing the holocaust and other genocides at all relevant to this discussion?

Absolutely fucking not.

You call me scum equivalent to a nazi in response. Have words lost all meaning to you?

Let's see. You're arguing that the only aspect of fascism, an entire political movement whose impact is so strong and so damaging we are still feeling its effects a century later, that is worth addressing is the holocaust, instead of its far more consistently present, pervasive, and insidious characteristics of inevitably building a liberticidal, autocratic, centralist dictatorship whose morals change at the drop of a hat based entirely on the convenience of the political leadership of the regime.

You know, like every fascist regime, self-proclaimed or de-facto, other than Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy which also did the holocaust.

Plus you bring this up as if not committing the most deliberate and industrialised genocide in recorded history makes stalinists or maoists not genocidal. A silver medal is as good as sitting on the couch to you, isn't it?

Furthermore, I would argue you are doing so because you are trying to protect your sacred cows of Lenin, Stalin, and Mao from being rightfully identified as just another flavour of fascist, and not out of genuine interest in highlighting how bad the holocaust truly was.

If you cared about that you wouldn't need to downplay how horrendous other genocides are to single out the nazis, you can roundly condemn them and the soviets as genocidal without making an equivalence.

Being genocidal and being exceptionally genocidal both earn you a one way ticket to "shoot on sight" land in my book, debating which one is worse is thoroughly pointless from a moral standpoint and a red herring from a political science standpoint as being a fascist does not require a kill count (though it usually predicts a pretty fucking high one.)

So yeah words have meanings, and tankie means fascist scum dressed in red, as opposed to dressed in black or dressed in brown.

OurToothbrush ,

Being genocidal and being exceptionally genocidal both earn you a one way ticket to “shoot on sight” land in my book, debating which one is worse is thoroughly pointless from a moral standpoint and a red herring from a political science standpoint as being a fascist does not require a kill count (though it usually predicts a pretty fucking high one.)

Okay, so people who support liberal "democracies" like the US currently backing genocide should be shot on sight then? Or just the governments responsible?

The problem with "those genocidal communists" is that liberal democracies are significantly more genocidal. You want to go with the least bad system.

Take the notion that man-made famine counts as genocide. 8 million people starve under the capitalist world order every year.

MolochAlter ,

You want to go with the least bad system.

Take the notion that man-made famine counts as genocide.

Hahaaa there's your true fucking colors. Called it.

Fuck off tankie scum, I hope someone punches you like the colorswapped nazi you are.

barsoap ,

I completely agree with your gist but

whose academic background has fuckall to do with history since he’s a fucking philologist.

Dude, don't do philology dirty like that. They're reading dusty old tomes all day long and you need a lot of historical knowledge to make proper sense of them. We couldn't read hieroglyphics without their work, and their extrapolations have been proven by Hittite (which was discovered after the reconstruction of proto-Indo-European and looks exactly as expected). The two disciplines feed into each other. Dr. Daniel Jackson is a philologist and at least as cool as Indiana Jones and do I need to mention J.R.R. Tolkien.

MolochAlter ,

Dude, believe it or not my own mother is a philologist, so I know that damn well.

I know that the discipline is important but I'd be a bit gunshy to look at a random philologist for earthshattering insight on the nature of a political movement whose impact clearly touches the man on a very personal level.

The best part is that I don't even have to, Katz is not even wrong, it's just that this tankie fucker is instrumentalising an argument against minimising one side to minimise the other and frankly I hope he catches the bus the wrong way for that one.

marx2k ,

Read world news. This is in no way just America.

Lmaydev ,

No but this post is about the US

brain_in_a_box ,

Which Republican candidate would you have preferred to win? Most of them are more fascist than Trump.

Lmaydev ,

At this point it likely doesn't matter. The US has fucked itself so hard. They'll either fall or spend decades trying to get back to where they were.

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