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TheOriginalGregToo ,

It's so frustrating to see something like this and realize that an increasing number of people align their views with the anti-fascists, thinking they are the "good guys", without seeing the inherent hypocrisy of the beliefs they hold. On paper the anti-fascists portray themselves as accepting, but the reality is quite the opposite. Generally speaking they are authoritarian pricks who will label anyone who disagrees with them as racist or bigoted simply to undermine their point of view. No idea should be above criticism.

I think privileged white people are the largest problem in society these days. I think violence should only be used as a last resort to self defense. I prefer minorities because I find them to be hard working with strong family values. I think freedom of speech only works if it is universal (especially extending to those I disagree with). I'm not entirely sure what classifies as a "dissenter". I have tremendous respect and appreciation for Jewish culture and the way in which they build community. And yet I have been called a fascist/racist/bigot many times online because I respectfully find the actions and beliefs of ANTIFA abhorrent.

If you scream down viewpoints you don't like rather than seek to understand, if you use violence to intimidate, if you seek to wield power to destroy your political enemies, then YOU are the bad guys. ANTIFA does all of these things then hides behind the ruse of being "anti-fascists" because they are cowards and are no better than the fascists they claim to fight against.

octopus_ink ,

I feel like we're gonna need a lot of citations here.

fossilesque ,
@fossilesque@mander.xyz avatar

Ah yes, big Antifa.

TheOriginalGregToo ,

Meaning what exactly?

toaster , (edited )
@toaster@slrpnk.net avatar

Not OP, but you're saying they're authoritatian when it's patently a decentralized, anti-authoritarian and leaderless movement. This shows a fundamental lack of understanding about what anti-fascists are.

No offence, but it sounds like your views are largely shaped by more right-leaning media's depictions of antifa.

fossilesque ,
@fossilesque@mander.xyz avatar

You get me.

MindTraveller ,

Hey look it's a fascist.

j_overgrens ,

While I don't agree with the op, you're kind of proving their point...

fossilesque , (edited )
@fossilesque@mander.xyz avatar

It's more like this:

I must make two honest confessions to you, my Christian and Jewish brothers. First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.

I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that law and order exist for the purpose of establishing justice and that when they fail in this purpose they become the dangerously structured dams that block the flow of social progress. I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that the present tension in the South is a necessary phase of the transition from an obnoxious negative peace, in which the Negro passively accepted his unjust plight, to a substantive and positive peace, in which all men will respect the dignity and worth of human personality. Actually, we who engage in nonviolent direct action are not the creators of tension. We merely bring to the surface the hidden tension that is already alive. We bring it out in the open, where it can be seen and dealt with. Like a boil that can never be cured so long as it is covered up but must be opened with all its ugliness to the natural medicines of air and light, injustice must be exposed, with all the tension its exposure creates, to the light of human conscience and the air of national opinion before it can be cured.

  • MLK

https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html

I don't personally like to pretend to be civil with people who do not extend the same courtesy, even if they are ignorant of their own contradictions. Good friends tell people they are wrong when they need to be told.

octopus_ink ,

https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/4e0be779-81e3-42fb-9b50-4616a7a0671b.jpeg

TheOriginalGregToo ,

What specific thing did I say that makes me a fascist?

poVoq ,
@poVoq@slrpnk.net avatar

Assuming the most benign interpretation: sorry but you are confusing justified self-defense with what actual fascist do. I guess you are familiar with the paradox of tolerance, but I recommend you thinking about that one again in the context of Antifa.

octopus_ink , (edited )

I think privileged white people are the largest problem in society these days. I think violence should only be used as a last resort to self defense. I prefer minorities because I find them to be hard working with strong family values. I think freedom of speech only works if it is universal (especially extending to those I disagree with). I’m not entirely sure what classifies as a “dissenter”. I have tremendous respect and appreciation for Jewish culture and the way in which they build community. And yet I have been called a fascist/racist/bigot many times online because I respectfully find the actions and beliefs of ANTIFA abhorrent.

While I would never put words in Angela Davis' mouth, I think this more or less covers it. Please avoid the temptation to skip forward or you won't appreciate what she is bringing together to make her final point. It's not a very long video, only about 3 minutes.

https://youtu.be/2HnDONDvJVE

Also:

https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/fdff85a3-47d2-412b-bd93-6c01e8e52041.jpeg

NekoKamiGuru ,
@NekoKamiGuru@ttrpg.network avatar

Antifa has not been taking much action against the violence directed at Jewish students at colleges around the world , despite the fact that many of these Jewish students are not Zionists, they are just identifiable as Jewish and so are conflated into being Zionists.

John_McMurray ,

Someone hasn't listened to anti fa and modern communists talk about jews

DaBabyAteMaDingo ,

I think this anti fascist stuff is retarded but I don't think that's true. Care to explain?

John_McMurray ,

Lived on the coast a long time, listened to people talk.

CileTheSane ,
@CileTheSane@lemmy.ca avatar

"I heard a racist guy once, pretty sure he was antifa!"

John_McMurray ,

Just cause you've never left your fucking basement, doesn't mean others haven't hung out with the hippies, burners and crazies in Portland, Vancouver, Seattle and LA for years

ameancow ,

You know what's worse than being a basement dweller? It's being unaware that you're vulnerable to propaganda, being unaware that you're an emotional creature and your brain doesn't try to make sense, it tries to connect stories and ideas to explain why you're feeling what you feel.

In other words, you can be a smart person and easily influenced into positions that either are not your own, or not even connected to reality just because you had a feeling once validated by someone saying the right thing at the right time and you don't question the story that you start piecing together in your head.

So the question you would need to always ask yourself, is what is it that you feel that you need to cling to such cynical and hateful stereotypes to the extent of even invalidating or denying the testimony of others who are directly contradicting your obviously exaggerated tales of "listening to hippies talk about jews."

You are describing a personal experience and because it validates some feeling you already had, it feels like a real evaluation of the broader world. Other people who do this include: scientologists, flat-earthers, modern nazis, cult members and generally people who just go through life angry and miserable and blaming that misery on others. Don't be a pawn to others or your own brain, have some control over your narratives.

John_McMurray ,

Stfu moron.

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

Wow, what a rational, level-headed response. You sure showed them.

Everyone here thinks you're the reasonable one. We all take you more seriously now.

John_McMurray ,

you've severely confused "well-spoken" with "anything worthwhile to say".

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

Something worthwhile like "stfu moron"?

You can't be this un-self-aware.

Actually no, I've seen how you talk. Obviously you are.

John_McMurray ,

Nah, that was the appropriate response to that moronic horseshit. It's not so much how you say it, it's what you say that matters.

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

You actually think this is convincing literally anyone? Be honest now, I really want to know, do you think you look reasonable to anyone at all here?

Like you can claim that you're the only sane person here all you want, but do you really think this performance is doing anything good?

For what it's worth, I really do think it's good that you're saying this, because it shows anyone who's watching just how vapid, toxic and hateful you are as a representative of the "antifa are the real fascists" crowd.

John_McMurray ,

I'm not trying to convince any you all of anything, that's clearly impossible. I'm trying to tell you you're fucking stupid and hoping it'll sink in over time.

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

I think that's projection, and I think anyone reading can see it too.

John_McMurray ,

That;s kinda funny, cause i didn't say anything about "antifa being the real fascists", I said left coast progressives have a habit of talking shit about the jews (communists tend to spout the Rothschild rhetoric as hard as Alex Jones fans)

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

Really, what did they say?

John_McMurray ,

literally just said what. fuck me. do you want direct and indivual quotes? No.

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

No no, keep bitching out and showing what a fool you are. It's great.

You said you're not my servant but you really do seem to be obligated to reply, like you apparently can't stop.

CileTheSane ,
@CileTheSane@lemmy.ca avatar

Just cause you've never left your fucking basement,

So you freely and openly make up assumptions and lies about people based on whether or not they agree with you, and you expect me to believe you totally met a bunch of hippies at Portland, Vancouver, Seattle and LA. For years. You hang out with hippies all the time. Can't leave your house without bumping into a hippie that introduces themselves to you with "I'm Antifa and I hate Jews!"

John_McMurray ,

Well, it's pretty plain you've never been to Portland.

CileTheSane ,
@CileTheSane@lemmy.ca avatar

Never claimed I had. Good thing all the racist Antifa love in Portland. Keeps them all contained.

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

Just take a moment to bask in the notion that "it’s pretty plain you’ve never been to Portland" without any clarification implies that actually they do constantly bump into hippies that say, "I’m Antifa and I hate Jews!” or at least something along those lines.

This is so unbelievably unhinged. I honestly think it's bad to remove comments like theirs, because they show so clearly how wrong that person is.

Even claiming they live on the coast as if that explains anything is just playing right into the Fox News canard about "coastal elites" which itself carries antisemitic undertones.

They're being so vague about it, I assume because they live on "THE COAST" and it's all just so intense and self-evidently evil that they are completely incapable of giving any specific details whatsoever.

John_McMurray ,

Jesus. Do you want my name and address? I don;t need to say which coast, it's fucking obvious between hippies and the named cities. You people think youre being clever, but are really just showing you've not been there.

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

Ah yes, name and address, clearly what I meant by specifics. I certainly didn't think it would be reasonable to specify the specific behaviours you've seen and in which contexts.

No no, a city and the notion of racist antifa, that's all anyone needs to take your word for it. I trust you.

John_McMurray ,

I already had, so that would imply you wanted otherwise. Fuck me, you actually think this is clever?

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

That's it? Just "anti fa and communists talk about jews"? You think that's anything?

What could I possibly want to know beyond that?

Oh gee, I dont know, maybe literally a single thing that they said? Maybe what was happening at the time?

No no, too much, I could dox you with that, obviously.

John_McMurray ,

Wouldn't be hard, I already know you live on the east side of the continent.

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

Tell me what they said. Give me just one single quote.

John_McMurray ,

No. I'm not your servant.

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

You came in so strong and now you're just bitching out.

PastryPaul ,

LOL

PastryPaul ,

I live in Portland, you're full of shit.

ameancow ,

Well SHIT son, you lived on the COAST??

Well that shit changes everything, I had no idea you overheard things out on the coast, I mean I was here ready to talk about crime stats and systemic inequality and the USA's history with civil rights, but here is a person who heard some stuff out on the coast! I guess I should reconsider everything and stop supporting efforts to squash nazis in an industrial nazi-squashing machine.

John_McMurray ,

Yeah, so all you have is shit you read. Brilliant.

StupidBrotherInLaw ,

You've got to be trolling. No one, I mean NO ONE is this stupid.

John_McMurray ,

i guess you don;t own a mirror

StupidBrotherInLaw ,

I did, but your mom stole it after I fucked her.

Don’t be bitter. Be better!

tocopherol ,
@tocopherol@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Could YOU care to explain? Do you have some issue with antifascism?

DaBabyAteMaDingo ,

The concept is cool but the youth of America is just doing it as a fad. Obviously I don't like fascism but I dislike so called anti fascists way more lol

tocopherol ,
@tocopherol@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

People against Nazis are worse than Nazis, is literally what you are saying.

DaBabyAteMaDingo ,

Not what I said but thanks for making my point. You and anyone else anti fascist adjacent are so whack 🤣

tocopherol ,
@tocopherol@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Okay let me be more accurate, sorry. You said you dislike people that call themselves antifascist more than people who murder Jewish people and queers.

DaBabyAteMaDingo ,

Sure bud 🤣🤣🤣

tocopherol ,
@tocopherol@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

You know you can go reread your comment if you are confused.

tocopherol ,
@tocopherol@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

What do they say? Because I am a lifelong antifascist and communist and we love Jewish people but shun Zionism, maybe you have conflated the two.

John_McMurray ,

You deaf? Or just in denial.

SoleInvictus ,

So what you're saying is you can't answer their question.

Edit: check their post history, they're obviously a troll

John_McMurray ,

No. You all just have what brains you have, so far in fantasy land, common sense sounds like trolling. Like it's 2024 and yall think communism is an option. FFS, you huys talk about pattern recogntion and trustin the sciencem, try readin a fucking book and not dieregarding the repeated results.

SoleInvictus , (edited )

Yeah, so all you have is shit you read. Brilliant.

-John McMurray, "Totally not a Troll Guys"

I can't tell - do I need to read a book or live on the coast? Message unclear.

John_McMurray ,

Try both, it'll definitely expand your horizons

kittenzrulz123 ,

As a Antifascist and AnSynd I am Jewish :3

Cethin ,

I mostly only hear good things about Jews from the left. I hear a lot of negative thoughts on Israel (which does not represent jews, and are just a state) and zionism. Most jews are no Israeli and/or Zionist. Many Israeli jews aren't in favor of the current government, their actions, or zionism either. There is a clear distinction between the three, and only being against one is anti-semetic.

John_McMurray ,

Yeah....heard this one before. Anyone says anything unpleasant is suddenly right wing.

Cethin ,

No. Just when someone says something against Israel, Zionism, or in favor of Palestine it isn't anti-semetic.

John_McMurray ,

stay on topic

Cethin ,

The topic of your strawman? Yeah, sure... that seems reasonable.

ProgrammingSocks ,

Jews or Israel? They aren't the same and saying they are is unironically antisemitic.

John_McMurray ,

Did I stutter? If I meant Israel, I would have said so. Why do people have this much trouble with direct statements? I generaly suspect they want multiple paragraphs to dissect because they can't find what they need in concise statements.

GarlicToast ,

This shit is so misleading. Fascism isn't the only authoritarianism. They too are anti-fascists. But you don't get free speech.

Nor is it a white only problem, or deadly only to Jewish people.

HoornseBakfiets ,

I’d like to bet your average hard Antfa is a whole lot less authoritarian than the average Mega fan.

And while I agree that authoritarianism is bad, so is libertarianism (see Theresa May)

GarlicToast ,

Communism is also a stinking pile of shit.

HoornseBakfiets ,

Communism by its nature must be combined with authoritarianism so yes.

But it would be wrong to conflate communism with current western left wing policies.

GarlicToast ,

Current western left wing values is too broad of a term.

From great ideas such as equal rights, that goes into the small details. Phrasing questions in classrooms to males only for examples. With great science behind it to show that it in fact removes success bias for males in maths.

To destructive ideas such as diversity hires.

From great ideas such as financial help to disabled people.

To destructive ideas such as forcing small businesses to be accessable with heavy fines that may break them.

From great ideas such as opposing the Israeli occupation of the West Bank.

To destructive ideas such as supporting Hamas. Which is a big WTF for me.

SatansMaggotyCumFart ,

Black isn’t a colour.

Warl0k3 ,

Never bought paint before, eh?

SatansMaggotyCumFart ,

Black is the absence of light and therefore not a colour.

But it is a shade.

pennomi ,

Color is a far broader word than that, even if in some niche uses it’s specific.

SatansMaggotyCumFart ,

Next you’re going to tell me zero is a number and not just a placeholder.

NewNewAccount ,

You’re not good at this.

SatansMaggotyCumFart ,

Apparently not.

Zagorath ,
@Zagorath@aussie.zone avatar

Are you 12? This is the kind of context-less pedantry that could only come from someone with no real-world experience.

Words can have different meanings in different contexts, and can belong in different categories depending.

Zekas ,

Damn you got baited hard. Look at the username. Have you never seen a troll?

webghost0101 ,

Anyone internet user can choose to troll if they like. Maybe some people have troll alter ego but for most username is unrelated.

MindTraveller ,

Satansmaggotycumfart has been a Lemmy regular for many months. What's your problem with funny usernames? Do you find laughter offensive?

Kolanaki ,
@Kolanaki@yiffit.net avatar

Pigments dude...

Black is every single color at once in pigment.

White is every single color at once in light.

SatansMaggotyCumFart ,

That’s not black, that’s a mix of every colour.

MIT engineers made a ‘black’ using vertically aligned carbon nanotubes but it’s only 99.995% of the way to being a true black.

Kolanaki ,
@Kolanaki@yiffit.net avatar

A mix of every color in pigment is black because it absorbs every color wavelength of light so no color is reflected back to your eyes. All the things like vantablack are doing is trying to get the amount of light reflected back off the object to your eyes to be completely 0. Visible, or otherwise.

You're focusing entirely on the light aspect, forgetting that pigments and light work together to create what we understand as color.

SatansMaggotyCumFart ,

Any pigment can be black depending on the lighting, but only black can be black in full light.

They are only 99.995% of the way to that using the carbon fibre pigment I described.

Not a mixture of every colour.

Kolanaki , (edited )
@Kolanaki@yiffit.net avatar

Any pigment can be black depending on the lighting

No... Just because there isn't enough light to illuminate the object doesn't mean its pigmentation is black. Would you say that an object that is red becomes black if you close your eyes or turn off the lights?

The reason an object is black in full lighting is because it's absorbing all the wavelengths of colored light you can see due to its pigment containing all of those colors. That's why we have black objects that we can see and call "black." Because they're black.

Also, just because I am curious: What do you think a black light is/does?

SatansMaggotyCumFart ,

If I gave you a black and a red ball in the dark you couldn’t tell me which is which.

If you gave me a ball painted with a conventional ’black’ paint and one that was painted with the pigment I described previously in full light I could.

Kolanaki ,
@Kolanaki@yiffit.net avatar

If I gave you a black and a red ball in the dark you couldn’t tell me which is which.

With my naked eyes? No. Because I can't see. But if you put them in a room I couldn't see and gave me the tools to analyze their molecular structure in a room I can see in, I could. (Or well, someone who knows how to use the equipment and read the measurements could anyway lol)

SatansMaggotyCumFart ,

I wouldn’t need any special tools or tool-deciphering experts.

Bumblefumble ,

Is purple a colour?

SatansMaggotyCumFart ,

Yes but it is one of the lesser colours like orange.

JohnDClay ,

Lol I guess we have a hierarchy of colors now

SatansMaggotyCumFart ,

Yesterday we were discussing capitalism and today it’s colours.

sukhmel ,

Next thing you know it's going to be a book about the superiority of some colours and how inferior colours should no longer exist… wait a minute 🤔

HonoraryMancunian ,

Uh, yes? 'Blue and green reign supreme' as the saying that I just made up goes

samus12345 ,
@samus12345@lemmy.world avatar

"I'm blue, if I was green I would die, if I was green I would die..."

Bumblefumble ,

Well you contradict yourself, since there's no such thing as purple light, it must be as much a colour as black is. Have you considered your third-grade gotcha might not be quite nuanced enough for the real world? Or that the science of colours might be a little more complex than you first thought?

idiomaddict ,

That’s because it’s ultra purple when it’s light

MindTraveller ,

Not all colours are made of light.

Mango ,

Light isn't color. Color is exclusively in your head. It's a mental construct.

LANIK2000 ,

I was gonna say something about scientific definitions not being too useful and that you would need to deny that orange and purple are colors, while claiming that WIFI is, but then I actually looked it up and I can't find a definition that doesn't include "lightness" in the equation, aka, black and white (and orange too). Literally can only find an Adobe article claiming this and then countless online discussions.

SatansMaggotyCumFart ,

It’s pretty easy, black isn’t a colour.

lvxferre ,
@lvxferre@mander.xyz avatar

A good troll should require barely any intervention from the person trolling. This chain has 20 comments; nine are yours. 9/20 = you suck at trolling. Sauce.

SatansMaggotyCumFart ,

I’m just having a friendly discussion.

lvxferre ,
@lvxferre@mander.xyz avatar

You're supposed to start with "Pardon me, I couldn't help but overh..." no no no wait nevermind that's a different type of troll, my bad.

SatansMaggotyCumFart ,

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/f6a363a1-3456-48d4-a513-dec93412f2bd.webp

I like these trolls.

JohnDClay ,

I don't, their faces are creepy looking

Mango ,

A master troll can survive for a year on a few grains of MDMA and the dew on his bag of grass.

Mango ,

Yes it is. It's one of the 4 colors that can make all other colors! Blue, Magenta, Steve, and Black.

dethedrus ,

Steve is a secondary color!

toaster ,
@toaster@slrpnk.net avatar

Remember not to feed the trolls, people.

MehBlah ,

Left and right is just another meaningless tag to attach to people. Its really jerks vs everyone else. You can't tell a leftist jerk from their right leaning clone. You can take the garbage they spew and substitute a few words depending on the what flavor they call themselves and hear nearly the exact same thing. Then you have the joiners. Who have to belong. Who will pick one side to belong. They by far are the worst of the group since they lack any spine to keep them honest.

angrystego ,

Is antifa extreme left?

shneancy ,

according to some yes, but according to normal people though, antifa is just people who don't want nazis around them, which should be everyone?

Iceblade02 ,

The fact that there is a "Yes" in the violence box (regardless of target) makes them violent extremists. Besides, from what I've seen, plenty of antifa folk will use violence and vandalism against people unrelated to the supposed target group.

frazorth ,

Makes them violent extremists

Only if you believe that any violence is extreme. I would disagree, punching fascists is fairly centrist and enjoys broad support.

what I've seen, plenty of antifa folk will use violence and vandalism against people unrelated to the supposed target group.

That is besides the point. You can be against facists and also against Nestle at the same time.

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

"Centrist" only if you use the sense of a median popular political position, which isn't really what it means. Self-described centrists are actually conservative and tend to be weirdly* okay with Nazis.

*weird if you don't understand the link between capital, the state, conservatism and fascism

Iceblade02 ,

I do, and where I live being the first to throw a punch towards anyone for almost any reason is generally frowned upon.

The reason that violence is dangerous in this context is that it can allow a violent minority to oppress and subjugate a majority. By removing it from society in general and de-legitimizing its use the influence of these sorts of people can be effectively minimized.

shneancy ,

do you think WWII was won without violence mate? If nazis could be reasoned with there wouldn't be a war in the first place. You can't turn the other cheek to nazis, it's just not an option, you either fight back or you die.

Iceblade02 ,

That's a terrible comparison. The same can be applied to any state with an aggressive foreign policy - or violent group intent on assailing a legitimate, elected government.

Political violence instead tends to fuel and enlarge these sorts of radical, violent movements, ultimately worsening the situation even further. The antidote is de-legitimizing their entire strategy by enforcing non-violence on an institutional level, a peaceful transfer of power. This shows the general populace that the most dangerous thing in the room is in fact the violent extremist, who needs to be locked up the moment they break the social contract of non-violence.

shneancy ,

"enforcing non-violance" and how do you propose we do that?

Diva ,
@Diva@lemmy.ml avatar

Centrists are currently overseeing a genocide right before our eyes and telling us that the fascists would be worse so we just have to suck it up and vote for them.

Centrists are violent extremists

NekoKamiGuru ,
@NekoKamiGuru@ttrpg.network avatar

Since it is leaderless some factions of Antifa are extreme left, some are what they say on the tin and are are anti fascist, and some are crypto-fascists who have appropriated the language of antifa as a smoke screen , this last group has most of the ones who go on social media and stir up ship , and bait people, and try to turn peaceful protests into riots to discredit the protestors...

HauntedCupcake ,

Isn't like most of the problem fascists who aren't explicitly calling for genocide? I thought that the antifa position didn't support free speech for them too

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